NV G13 or R8 daggers?

_ShadowFish_ - Lost City

Hi, i have been at lvl 100 for about a month been using R8 daggs, but i'm thinking about going for barrier thorn nirvana and i want your opinions on if it is worth it or not. I realize aps isn't all there is to damage unlike many sins on this game. b:surrender

So R8 4aps vs barrier thorn 5aps in terms of dps, and what is more suitable for pvp or pve? Thanks in advance guys b:laugh

Dinya - Sanctuary

G13>R8
They're endgame daggers for most of sins and they refine great too.
U can get them with eyez closed it's good investment

Jedi_dagwarz - Harshlands

rank 8 recast is the best! u can be glad u never got barrier thorn because pw just blew a hole in our pockets[people who have 2nd cast barrier lost 200 odd mil]

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

For dps: at 4 aps Rank 8 is better until about +8 refines. Then if the G13s have 2 sockets they become better. If they only have 1 socket (rank 8 auto 2 sockets) then the Rank 8 is better till +11. Personally, the 200 mil I saved from not getting G13 went towards a pan gu's which I share accros my characters, and then later getting G15 Lunar Nirvana daggers (completely skipped G13).

It kind of matters on what your goals are, too. R8 has high dph, higher crit, and higher spike damage which are all great for pvp. G13 has more frequent bloodpaint heals and better chi gain, which can help keep you alive better when soloing.

If I was forming a Nirvana squad, I'd honestly prefer an 4.0 R8 +10 to a 5.0 G13 +10 but there's really not a difference. It's about 1% either way and 200 mil.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

For dps: at 4 aps Rank 8 is better until about +8 refines. Then if the G13s have 2 sockets they become better. If they only have 1 socket (rank 8 auto 2 sockets) then the Rank 8 is better till +11. Personally, the 200 mil I saved from not getting G13 went towards a pan gu's which I share accros my characters, and then later getting G15 Lunar Nirvana daggers (completely skipped G13).

I was originally going to stick with R8 and +10 it. However, I decided to get the G13 mostly because I'm a sage and the additional chi gain is rather helpful.

It kind of matters on what your goals are, too. R8 has high dph, higher crit, and higher spike damage which are all great for pvp. G13 has more frequent bloodpaint heals and better chi gain, which can help keep you alive better when soloing.

Very true. I still carry my +6 Rank 8 for AoEing in FCC and Metal, because it's just a lot better than my +6 G13.

If I was forming a Nirvana squad, I'd honestly prefer an 4.0 R8 +10 to a 5.0 G13 +10 but there's really not a difference. It's about 1% either way and 200 mil.

But would that be 2.86/4.0 R8 vs 3.33/5.0 G13 or would the G13 be 4.0/5.0?

And I don't really see how a G13 dagger costs 200m. Personally, mine cost somewhere around 140-150m. I got the dagger rather cheaply since I found someone selling the TT90 dagger for 4m and I bought Raptures for 1,300,000-1,600,000 each.

_ShadowFish_ - Lost City

Thanks for the replies guys it sounds like R8 and Barrier are pretty similar in dps so i will go with r8 and buy a pan gu instead for 4.0 and the extra dph is pretty nice for aoes b:dirty

Azizsixer - Raging Tide

I'm guessing the ~200m price tag includes sharding and refines to +7 or higher?

On RT ppl ask for roughly ~200m for the dag itself (1 socket/low refine) and people still buy it o.O

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Use the coin you'll be saving not going G13 and get recasted r8 daggers. They're around the same-ish price, and I'm pretty sure they are lovely, both in look and damage/adds.

Traz - Dreamweaver

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Use the coin you'll be saving not going G13 and get recasted r8 daggers. They're around the same-ish price, and I'm pretty sure they are lovely, both in look and damage/adds.

Nope afraid not. Get G15 then so you have a G13 to like +5-+7 in mean time then upgrade from there.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Use the coin you'll be saving not going G13 and get recasted r8 daggers. They're around the same-ish price, and I'm pretty sure they are lovely, both in look and damage/adds.

Don't think so. At least on Sanctuary, the catshops at the forges are buying at the following prices:
Memory Coin 48,000
Adamantine Whetstone 510,000
Oricalcum Ore 12,000,000

These put the price of a Recast Rank 8 weapon at 400,442,000. And that's more like G15 Nirvana than G13.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Don't think so. At least on Sanctuary, the catshops at the forges are buying at the following prices:
Memory Coin 48,000
Adamantine Whetstone 510,000
Oricalcum Ore 12,000,000

These put the price of a Recast Rank 8 weapon at 400,442,000. And that's more like G15 Nirvana than G13.

That's what I said in the above post more or less <

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Ouch.

I see. But r8 recast has a much higher chance at getting GoF than G15 (roughly 4-5 times the chance), or attack levels (10-11+ times the chance). Though the tradeoff is a much lower chance of getting -int on them.

I just see them as a good end-game dagger that's not r9 or G15. And an actually good one too. It's G15 as well, and the random adds that are not -int are all good, minus +magic.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I was originally going to stick with R8 and +10 it. However, I decided to get the G13 mostly because I'm a sage and the additional chi gain is rather helpful.



Very true. I still carry my +6 Rank 8 for AoEing in FCC and Metal, because it's just a lot better than my +6 G13.



But would that be 2.86/4.0 R8 vs 3.33/5.0 G13 or would the G13 be 4.0/5.0?

And I don't really see how a G13 dagger costs 200m. Personally, mine cost somewhere around 140-150m. I got the dagger rather cheaply since I found someone selling the TT90 dagger for 4m and I bought Raptures for 1,300,000-1,600,000 each.

Yah, for sage I think G13 are better. Its hard to compare damage output and survivability when you can't stay permasparked, or need to pause and use skills to do it. I actually (as taboo as itis to mention it) support sage claw sins at 5.0 because they can out DD 2.5/2.86 dagger sins depending on the claws and daggers. But yes, for a sage I'd consider G13 even endgame because of the odds of getting -.1 on anything else and keeping your "best" permaspark.

I was talking about sparked R8 with a tome vs sparked G13, so 4.0 vs 5.0. R8 loses if you don't have the tome which is why its somewhat a priority.

On our server raps were just being bought for 2.3m and sold for 2.5-3m. Now the market is cooling down and I just sold to a catshop for 1.95m and see people selling for 2.2m. 100 times any of those numbers plus the TT99 dagger is over 200 mil.

Dinya - Sanctuary

I still have r8 +8 daggers 4aps and they are very low dps comparate to g15
I tried a +8g13 5aps and for me they look superior to r8 in term of dps/chi gain and survavibility. ( i comparate those too in fcc cave with similar gear)

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

As sage sin I guess G13 is the only viable option, otherwise you're way to gimped.

R8 is the cheap variant. Comes with rank, throw some refines on it, d.ick around.
G13 is the farmer's tool. 1/2 sockets doesn't matter much when you can Power Dash and still be permasparked. DPS difference is minimal even at 1 socket, but where R8 forces you with TT99 ornaments, G13 leaves the door open to a Cube Neck + Warsong/Map4 belt. That's about what, ~1k Hp (360 from stats only)? with mild (6-7) refines and much better defenses. Phys you can increase from rings refines, but mag? 200 on cube neck + 200? on map4 belt - 400 mag def unbuffed right there. Plus 1 attk 1 def lvl.

yeah, pure math wise R8 +10 is on par or slightly better than G13+10 1 socket.
Add the above advantages in an let's see where R8 stands after that. Plus, you can recast that G13 once you're set with cash to a kickarse endgame dagger.

Geshwur - Raging Tide

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As sage sin I guess G13 is the only viable option, otherwise you're way to gimped.

R8 is the cheap variant. Comes with rank, throw some refines on it, d.ick around.
G13 is the farmer's tool. 1/2 sockets doesn't matter much when you can Power Dash and still be permasparked. DPS difference is minimal even at 1 socket, but where R8 forces you with TT99 ornaments, G13 leaves the door open to a Cube Neck + Warsong/Map4 belt. That's about what, ~1k Hp (360 from stats only)? with mild (6-7) refines and much better defenses. Phys you can increase from rings refines, but mag? 200 on cube neck + 200? on map4 belt - 400 mag def unbuffed right there. Plus 1 attk 1 def lvl.

yeah, pure math wise R8 +10 is on par or slightly better than G13+10 1 socket.
Add the above advantages in an let's see where R8 stands after that. Plus, you can recast that G13 once you're set with cash to a kickarse endgame dagger.

second socket in daggers w/ Garnet Gem Demon Devo = Pretty noticable difference in DPS...

Also... G15 is a viable option for sage sins too... Get some -int w/sac... Yeah, you lose a LITTLE APS... But the base damage difference w/sac is even MORE noticable with sage devo...

The flaw does lie in the interval though... You will be slightly under perma-spark with wind shield if I'm not mistaken......

Traz - Dreamweaver

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As sage sin I guess G13 is the only viable option, otherwise you're way to gimped.

R8 is the cheap variant. Comes with rank, throw some refines on it, d.ick around.
G13 is the farmer's tool. 1/2 sockets doesn't matter much when you can Power Dash and still be permasparked. DPS difference is minimal even at 1 socket, but where R8 forces you with TT99 ornaments, G13 leaves the door open to a Cube Neck + Warsong/Map4 belt. That's about what, ~1k Hp (360 from stats only)? with mild (6-7) refines and much better defenses. Phys you can increase from rings refines, but mag? 200 on cube neck + 200? on map4 belt - 400 mag def unbuffed right there. Plus 1 attk 1 def lvl.

yeah, pure math wise R8 +10 is on par or slightly better than G13+10 1 socket.
Add the above advantages in an let's see where R8 stands after that. Plus, you can recast that G13 once you're set with cash to a kickarse endgame dagger.

No, it is not. My sage sin uses my demon sin's G15 (20AL -int) and I do just fine on it. That with 2 +10 lunar rings from my demon sins and +5 everything else I can easily pull full big room and crush FC just as easily as demon sin. It is a bit slower but..... so. Once I get all +7 gear and DoTs in my sage sin (demon is all vit stone) I'll probably be roughly close to the damage it does with the same daggers. The other catch is I also ran a solo instance and another sage sin friend ran one at same time (so we do 2 big rooms same time) and he's even lower APS. He's 22 DoT and R9 Dags. He does it way faster then me and I have 3.33 4.0 WS. APS is not everything ffs and it's what drives me absolutely insane on these forums.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No, it is not. My sage sin uses my demon sin's G15 (20AL -int) and I do just fine on it. That with 2 +10 lunar rings from my demon sins and +5 everything else I can easily pull full big room and crush FC just as easily as demon sin. It is a bit slower but..... so. Once I get all +7 gear and DoTs in my sage sin (demon is all vit stone) I'll probably be roughly close to the damage it does with the same daggers. The other catch is I also ran a solo instance and another sage sin friend ran one at same time (so we do 2 big rooms same time) and he's even lower APS. He's 22 DoT and R9 Dags. He does it way faster then me and I have 3.33 4.0 WS. APS is not everything ffs and it's what drives me absolutely insane on these forums.

I'll have to agree on this point, as I've seen Empu do amazing things with his 2.86 +12 R9. Well, his gear is +10-11.

I will have to point out that I did go for G13's solely for the increased chi gain. At 3.33 regular and 4.0 with Windshield, I'm able to use Power Dash whenever it's not on cooldown, which gives me a pretty hefty boost in DPS. And the additional chi gain shows: I was able to solo seat with buffs from my cleric and a 10% HP buff from faction base, whereas with my +6 Rank 8 dagger, I died at Torturess due to not being able to keep up my spark cycle. The increased life probably has something to do with it too, but I'm rather certain I would've gotten my *** handed to me with my 7,094 life if I had gone with a +6 2.5 R8.

I do still carry my +6 R8 dagger around for whenever I need the DPH, though.

Empu - Sanctuary

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

APS is not everything ffs and it's what drives me absolutely insane on these forums.

Let's create a victim association for the aps-discrimination ! b:laugh

Yeah, totally agree with you there. Unfortunately, ingame it's just as bad judging on WC of Sanctuary. Ppl who consider G13 daggers as the best daggers for sage or even mention fists as sage sin weapon, just make me feel sorry for their narrow-mindedness.

You know, I even got accused of lying a few times when I said I could solo this or that boss, simply cause I'm not 5 aps b:chuckle

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Let's create a victim association for the aps-discrimination ! b:laugh

Yeah, totally agree with you there. Unfortunately, ingame it's just as bad judging on WC of Sanctuary. Ppl who consider G13 daggers as the best daggers for sage or even mention fists as sage sin weapon, just make me feel sorry for their narrow-mindedness.

You know, I even got accused of lying a few times when I said I could solo this or that boss, simply cause I'm not 5 aps b:chuckle

I do get giggly when people claim G13s as the best weapons for sins in the game.

G13s are only good for the much better chi gain for the low cost. But if you take out the cost parameter, G13s are kinda crappy. Rank 9 has more damage, G15 has the chi gain with more damage and Rank 8 has superior DPH.

Personally, going with the G13 was a massive shot in the dark for me. I hadn't had any experience with APS higher than 2.86 and I pretty much figured to go for G13 in an attempt to be able to use my Sage Power Dash more often for increased damage and to spark more often to save myself. I got both of those things going up to 3.33.

If I was going for a "better" option, I would go with G15 and a Tome for the same APS with SS/GoF and higher DPH.

I also think that a lot of people stay with G13 because they end up refining them to +10 when they reach 5 aps. And the costs of going G15 with a +10 G13 are rather impractical. Of course, a lot of people go with the +10 just so that they can get into the "high-end" Nirvana squads.

I will keep using my G13s, with the full knowledge that there's at least three better options and one that would be comparable. The reason is that, as far as I'm concerned, the G13s are "good enough".

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

APS is not everything ffs and it's what drives me absolutely insane on these forums.

Eh, I think these forums have had so many aps idiots who only seem to understand "aps = good, derrr" that the regulars have taken a very opposing view and are always shouting back at them "aps isn't everything". Personally, I see people comment more on how aps isn't everything than I see people actually toting the glory of aps. I think there is also a lot of sage sin pride, or pride for being different in these forums, as well as people who want others to look at multiple facets of gameplay and not just dps.

But for 99% of sins, they only care about 1 aspect of sins, and thats their dps. Aps is a direct correlation to dps. A 20% increase in aps is a 20% increase in dps and paint heals. For most the sin population that honestly is all they need to know and therefore all they care about.

For them dps is a footrace and aps in literally a burst of speed towards the finish line, so why are we talking about dph and aoe and zerk strikes in pvp? Who cares about unsparked damage? Or chi gain or conservation?


So yes, I very much agree aps isn't everything but for most people its almost all they need to know. I mentioned G13 daggers being one of the few reasonable endgame options for sage, its because there isn't a huge dps increase in flatout permasparking between 2.86 R9+10 and 4.0 G13+10. Assuming both are permasparked R9 only does 14% more dps. But after 3 sparks the R9 has skill cooldowns and can't get back to 3 sparks and has to dd unsparked and the G13s catch up in damage. Consider survivability of spending 6 seconds unsparked following a weapon that uses GoF to get its dps and G13 is arguably equal at offense and better at defense when spark spamming. 400 mil less, too. Yes, the picture completely changes when talking about pvp, using skills, or aoeing. But for 99% of people, all that matters is the footrace.

I also mentioned claws being a possible option for sage sins as a hold-me-over until they get decent 100+ daggers. R8 at 2.86 or Deicides at 5.0 for sages and the deicides have comparable damage when triple sparked with only 146 str. Same situations as above, the R8 sage sin has a hard time keeping permasparked but the Deicides sage sin would get a steady stream of chi and plenty extra to switch and use skills and still remain permasparked with spark damage reduction. Its definitely not endgame but I've seen sins ripped apart for suggesting this and called "aps idiots."

In anything but spark spam both those arguments fail and I concede. But since sins can stealth to bosses and do just that, and alot of people don't pk or have dph daggers for aoe situations, for many people the game comes down to just that. Spark spam and aps. Nothing wrong with picking this part of the game to focus on, even though its one sided.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Eh, I think these forums have had so many aps idiots who only seem to understand "aps = good, derrr" that the regulars have taken a very opposing view and are always shouting back at them "aps isn't everything". Personally, I see people comment more on how aps isn't everything than I see people actually toting the glory of aps. I think there is also a lot of sage sin pride, or pride for being different in these forums, as well as people who want others to look at multiple facets of gameplay and not just dps.

But for 99% of sins, they only care about 1 aspect of sins, and thats their dps. Aps is a direct correlation to dps. A 20% increase in aps is a 20% increase in dps and paint heals. For most the sin population that honestly is all they need to know and therefore all they care about.

For them dps is a footrace and aps in literally a burst of speed towards the finish line, so why are we talking about dph and aoe and zerk strikes in pvp? Who cares about unsparked damage? Or chi gain or conservation?


So yes, I very much agree aps isn't everything but for most people its almost all they need to know. I mentioned G13 daggers being one of the few reasonable endgame options for sage, its because there isn't a huge dps increase in flatout permasparking between 2.86 R9+10 and 4.0 G13+10. Assuming both are permasparked R9 only does 14% more dps. But after 3 sparks the R9 has skill cooldowns and can't get back to 3 sparks and has to dd unsparked and the G13s catch up in damage. Consider survivability of spending 6 seconds unsparked following a weapon that uses GoF to get its dps and G13 is arguably equal at offense and better at defense when spark spamming. 400 mil less, too. Yes, the picture completely changes when talking about pvp, using skills, or aoeing. But for 99% of people, all that matters is the footrace.

I also mentioned claws being a possible option for sage sins as a hold-me-over until they get decent 100+ daggers. R8 at 2.86 or Deicides at 5.0 for sages and the deicides have comparable damage when triple sparked with only 146 str. Same situations as above, the R8 sage sin has a hard time keeping permasparked but the Deicides sage sin would get a steady stream of chi and plenty extra to switch and use skills and still remain permasparked with spark damage reduction. Its definitely not endgame but I've seen sins ripped apart for suggesting this and called "aps idiots."

In anything but spark spam both those arguments fail and I concede. But since sins can stealth to bosses and do just that, and alot of people don't pk or have dph daggers for aoe situations, for many people the game comes down to just that. Spark spam and aps. Nothing wrong with picking this part of the game to focus on, even though its one sided.

99% of the sin population aren't regularly in the situation described in red. The only situation where we would be talking about more then 3 sparks is a world boss or solo 3-x. A very large majority don't do either. This is one of those situations where it's logically sound but has barely any practicality. Secondly my sage sin with +12 (2) G11 Garnets G15s (20AL -int) can do 1.6mil damage (kills holeen) in 3 sparks or less and he's not even r9 or DoTs yet. And when you add in a squad I see maybe 5% of time where we would be talking about your analysis.

Empu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I will keep using my G13s, with the full knowledge that there's at least three better options and one that would be comparable. The reason is that, as far as I'm concerned, the G13s are "good enough".

Ofc, not being the uber-best doesn't mean it's bad. It is still a G13 weapon with good refine rate. Most ppl just make to much off a fuz over the -0.1 int add, or aps in general. Like Saku's post above... Well, he knows I don't agree at all with that kind of paper-only theory. I totally agree with Traz on that, it drives me insane too. But in the end, those ppl just write it down on the paper like all you need to do is run in and activate a spark macro. It is funny that ppl that actually can solo things and/or do more then just nirvana, usually don't really agree with all the aps-fuz. It's simple, in practice you either can't stay perma-sparked on auto-attacks only (even at 5 aps) or things die so fast there is no such thing as "perma-spark" anyway.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

I have to agree with Traz.

For me, unless it's a 3-x, WB, or Faction Trial boss, it never takes me more than 3 sparks to kill anything.

And I have to agree with Saku as well. Though of course the exaggerations are there, it makes me facehoof to no end when I meet sins who think APS > everything.

It's about defenses too. Weapon is just one part of one's gear. What about the rest?

__Serpent__ - Lost City

Just gonna jump in this thread as well. I merch my gear so G15 or R8 reforged is outta the question anytime soon. I'm stuck between R8 and G13. Which one is better? And when I say better, I don't mean for farming purposes. I simply ONLY wanna know what's better for PK. 4aps sage vs 5aps Nirv. Also I'll probably get my wep to +8 at most for now til another +10 sale.b:laugh

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

__Serpent__ - Lost City wrote: »

Just gonna jump in this thread as well. I merch my gear so G15 or R8 reforged is outta the question anytime soon. I'm stuck between R8 and G13. Which one is better? And when I say better, I don't mean for farming purposes. I simply ONLY wanna know what's better for PK. 4aps sage vs 5aps Nirv. Also I'll probably get my wep to +8 at most for now til another +10 sale.b:laugh

It was covered in the replies to the OP around posts 5-8, should have jumped in sooner.

Basically R8 and G13 dps is about the same assuming you have the tome. R8 has better dps with refines +1-8, at +9-10 its about equal depending on one or two sockets, and at +11 G13 becomes better dps.

But purely for PvP, common consensus is R8 is preferred because of the higher dph and crit rate.

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No, it is not. My sage sin uses my demon sin's G15 (20AL -int) and I do just fine on it. That with 2 +10 lunar rings from my demon sins and +5 everything else I can easily pull full big room and crush FC just as easily as demon sin. It is a bit slower but..... so. Once I get all +7 gear and DoTs in my sage sin (demon is all vit stone) I'll probably be roughly close to the damage it does with the same daggers. The other catch is I also ran a solo instance and another sage sin friend ran one at same time (so we do 2 big rooms same time) and he's even lower APS. He's 22 DoT and R9 Dags. He does it way faster then me and I have 3.33 4.0 WS. APS is not everything ffs and it's what drives me absolutely insane on these forums.

traz, we're talking about a "startup" build, not your +12 +20attk lvl -0.5 G15 dagger with +10 rings and the other good **** you ported from your demon sin. Try to get a grasp on that concept for a bit.

Empu - Sanctuary

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

traz, we're talking about a "startup" build, not your +12 +20attk lvl -0.5 G15 dagger with +10 rings and the other good **** you ported from your demon sin. Try to get a grasp on that concept for a bit.

You are the one who said :
As sage sin I guess G13 is the only viable option, otherwise you're way to gimped.

Wether it's about "startup" or "final goal", all points of Traz are valid. Heck, I never had any dagger with a -int add and I'm a sage sin. If I had the choice between r8 and G13, I'd go for the r8 anytime.

Traz - Dreamweaver

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

traz, we're talking about a "startup" build, not your +12 +20attk lvl -0.5 G15 dagger with +10 rings and the other good **** you ported from your demon sin. Try to get a grasp on that concept for a bit.

You call 250m on G13 daggers alone (nothing else included) a startup build? If you're going G13 already before anything else we're passed that. G13 is not the only viable option, and people without G13s are not "to gimped."

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

guys, I get where you're coming from, but please, stop ignoring facts just to prove you have a point.

sure, if you have a -int tome you can go about and around with a R8 too. You'll do fine for a while, why not, specially if you're demon.
Being sage with no tome and R8 dagger or Nirv pants you're what? 2.2 aps/2.5 aps with windshield? I'm sorry, but no matter how you're spinning that around is half the dps/healing of a G13. No matter what you farm/doing G13 will be a better option. Besides, it can be recasted to g15 so I don't really see the problem. Is it the most cost effective path? NO, obviously. But cost effective freaks come to BH Warsong with tt90 green gear and hook&torns +3, "cause I'm saving for R9".

While you're around that 4-5 aps mark farming nirvana/tt to improve your gear makes everything that much faster.
It's not about "being ok" with what you have, it's about making the most of your char at one point or another and actually bringing something to the squad and not leeching and, in the end, about not wasting your own time.
Now you guys are taking edge case scenarios to prove your point: when all is maxed, 4 aps sage and 5 aps demon are all the same (extrapolating here a bit) and really doesn't matter what weapon you carry. When you run around with G15+12 with +20 attk lvls who gives a **** if you lose some aps to carry that nuke around?


Sure R9 is better, sure you might have to reroll a few times to get any decent stats on a g15, but hey, that's the only thing you need to worry.

Really, both of you guys should go roll a sage sin on a fresh new account, so you can't transfer any bound gear from old mains and without the billions of coins you already have on them. Go sage with R8 dagg and go farm your 4 aps, come back later and tell me how that feels/works, ok?

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You call 250m on G13 daggers alone (nothing else included) a startup build? If you're going G13 already before anything else we're passed that. G13 is not the only viable option, and people without G13s are not "to gimped."

Anyone who pays 250m for G13 is a ******.

Mine cost me about... 130-150m, not quite sure on the total.

You know, you can buy Raptures during 2x drops.

Unless you're again adding a +10 Refine with 2 Garnet Gems to. Which would make it go beyond the "startup" category.