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Sagek - Sanctuary
Posts: 1,156 Arc User
So I see a lot of discussion about the PWI economy and such and after reading a few of the PWI Economist post and threads I am curious, what is the forums thoughts on Packs?Now I am not looking for a debate on who is to blame for the economic strife that PWI is currently dealing with as there are valid points for both arguements.
if they made the contents of Packs none tradable and the packs themselves none tradable how would that affect the PWI Economy, would it make merchants re-focus on Mats or other soruces of revenue would it cause such a shock to the economy that it would actually have a chance to actually fix it'self?
Also I don't care to hear, "PWI would never do it because it won't make them money!!!!"
This isn't a Lets get rid of packs thread or whatever. I am curious of the affects it would have on the game and not if PWI would implament something like this or not.
What are your thoughts?
(Also if you've seen this thread a thousand times before then ignore it, You've obviously stated your opinion before and if you can't state it again without flaming or QQing then don't bother stating it.)
if they made the contents of Packs none tradable and the packs themselves none tradable how would that affect the PWI Economy, would it make merchants re-focus on Mats or other soruces of revenue would it cause such a shock to the economy that it would actually have a chance to actually fix it'self?
Also I don't care to hear, "PWI would never do it because it won't make them money!!!!"
This isn't a Lets get rid of packs thread or whatever. I am curious of the affects it would have on the game and not if PWI would implament something like this or not.
What are your thoughts?
(Also if you've seen this thread a thousand times before then ignore it, You've obviously stated your opinion before and if you can't state it again without flaming or QQing then don't bother stating it.)
Post edited by Sagek - Sanctuary on
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Inb4massiveflamefest b:bye"yesterday was history, tomorrow is a mystery....but today it is a gift, that is why it is called the present."
L.C. Merchantile Asset Management est.2010
(pwinsider.wordpress.com)0 -
I think packs do a good job of bringing the gambling nature within people. The odds of actually making more money than just selling gold are way to low. other than that, they made lunar gear way easier, and tokens basically control the market for hypers, subs, do alls, and pretty much anything else you can make with them.
I dont hate them as much as most of the community does, but i havent been around since gold was only like 100k, so i havent been a part of the dramatic change in the economy.0 -
I have to say, the economy on PWI would probably crash if packs and their contents were made untradeable. Too many things are made cheap by them, and if that was to be taken away? b:shocked
b:surrender
Sad to say it, but leaving them in is the lesser of two evils in this situation.0 -
I don't know if "**** hitting the fan" is a good enough discription as to what might happen if they bound pack items.tatuaje: grinding mobs and zhenning ???
frankieraye:All right, I admit it, it's a bit retro. lol.0 -
The problem is mostly that pack openers aren't likely to have a use for say 10 Wing Trophies, making them much less likely to opening for a bunch of doubles
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So, uh... the whole question here is just about "what if pack items became untradeable?" I think you could've worded that better, dude. Half your post seems to be about the things you don't want us to talk about, which strikes me as a bit futile because if we're discussing packs, we're discussing packs. You can't cherry-pick which aspect of them should be discussed. It's like saying "okay let's all discuss Coke vs. Pepsi, but WAITWAITWAIT... only on the merits of their bottle designs." o.O
But anyway... packs created a "token economy." That's the term I've always used for it. And I think, as Kritty mentioned, the biggest result of making their rewards untradeable would be massive inflation in many different item categories that, currently, rely on tokens to be cheap. Shards, Socket Stones, Teles, skill book pages, Do-All cards... the list goes on. And yeah, a classic-PWI purist like myself could argue that "you shouldn't be able to get a flawless shard for 140k anyway, that's too easy." But in general, I tend to file that under "necessary evil" as Kritty does.
If I could change packs, I'd just remove the gear options from them. No more FF and Lunar tokens, no more mega-capes, no more scroll of tome, etc... that's the worst part of packs. Many of those items have a legitimate method of earning them in-game, methods which have fallen into disuse because of packs (Lunar comes to mind). Others have no legitimate way of earning them at all, and now that they come from packs, the devs have no motivation to ever give us one.
A close runner-up to the title of "biggest pack-related problem" would probably be the 10mil big notes. Y'know, the ones that are causing the inflation, and everything. >_>[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »So, uh... the whole question here is just about "what if pack items became untradeable?" I think you could've worded that better, dude. Half your post seems to be about the things you don't want us to talk about, which strikes me as a bit futile because if we're discussing packs, we're discussing packs. You can't cherry-pick which aspect of them should be discussed. It's like saying "okay let's all discuss Coke vs. Pepsi, but WAITWAITWAIT... only on the merits of their bottle designs." o.O
But anyway... packs created a "token economy." That's the term I've always used for it. And I think, as Kritty mentioned, the biggest result of making their rewards untradeable would be massive inflation in many different item categories that, currently, rely on tokens to be cheap. Shards, Socket Stones, Teles, skill book pages, Do-All cards... the list goes on. And yeah, a classic-PWI purist like myself could argue that "you shouldn't be able to get a flawless shard for 140k anyway, that's too easy." But in general, I tend to file that under "necessary evil" as Kritty does.
If I could change packs, I'd just remove the gear options from them. No more FF and Lunar tokens, no more mega-capes, no more scroll of tome, etc... that's the worst part of packs. Many of those items have a legitimate method of earning them in-game, methods which have fallen into disuse because of packs (Lunar comes to mind). Others have no legitimate way of earning them at all, and now that they come from packs, the devs have no motivation to ever give us one.
In doing so you remove the incentives for CSers buy the abundance of packs from cash shop which will also mean a lower supply of tokens for the "token economy." Token prices will inevitably be raised and massive riots and QQ ensues. Is that what you want?"yesterday was history, tomorrow is a mystery....but today it is a gift, that is why it is called the present."
L.C. Merchantile Asset Management est.2010
(pwinsider.wordpress.com)0 -
Take packs out the game permanently, put the level 75 pots in the CS or in the apothecary to buy (or make), leave hypers in the CS (or in an NPC to buy at 100k or so) and any other semi-important items (like pages for 79 skills, veno pet food etc) in an npc to buy and all will be well.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Kantorek: we hope to see the economy in PWI come back "down to earth" if you will."
*One week later*
"Frankieraye: Lucky Corals and Platinum Charms are going to be in the Boutique indefinitely."
*few months later, PWI puts rank8/9 into the CS insanely cheap, raising gold 1mill+*0 -
Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »Take packs out the game permanently, put the level 75 pots in the CS or in the apothecary to buy (or make), leave hypers in the CS (or in an NPC to buy at 100k or so) and any other semi-important items (like pages for 79 skills, veno pet food etc) in an npc to buy and all will be well.
really? all will be well? packs and tokens are so friggin integrated with the economy that you will destroy everything, no one will ever want to go back to the way things were when earning coins was so difficult. Go live a cave if that's what you want for yourself. Ridiculous."yesterday was history, tomorrow is a mystery....but today it is a gift, that is why it is called the present."
L.C. Merchantile Asset Management est.2010
(pwinsider.wordpress.com)0 -
TheUnderLord - Lost City wrote: »really? all will be well? packs and tokens are so friggin integrated with the economy that you will destroy everything, no one will ever want to go back to the way things were when earning coins was so difficult. Go live a cave if that's what you want for yourself. Ridiculous.
Oh look it's you again with another clueless post while forgetting to read everything properly.
/troll[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Kantorek: we hope to see the economy in PWI come back "down to earth" if you will."
*One week later*
"Frankieraye: Lucky Corals and Platinum Charms are going to be in the Boutique indefinitely."
*few months later, PWI puts rank8/9 into the CS insanely cheap, raising gold 1mill+*0 -
No one will open packs except for people with truly disposable income. Since the items would be bound, as ItsAWolf mentioned, who needs multiple copies of the more common items?
Token prices would soar as the supply dwindles. We have become accustomed to the token perks from packs. I mean, I remember burning through gold mp charms in full TT2-3s before even JJ mp food came out... or 750k+ for flawless shards... I don't really want to repeat that again >.>
It does, however, bring up the interesting point of how it would affect gold prices. If the consumers really wanted and "needed" tokens, they would have to open packs. I wonder if the price of gold would fall as the incentive for opening packs shifted from "I hope I get something shiny!" to "I hope I get more tokens!" I am not sure I see that happening...Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0 -
Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »It does, however, bring up the interesting point of how it would affect gold prices. If the consumers really wanted and "needed" tokens, they would have to open packs. I wonder if the price of gold would fall as the incentive for opening packs shifted from "I hope I get something shiny!" to "I hope I get more tokens!" I am not sure I see that happening...
Thats what I am wondering as well.0 -
I have to say, the economy on PWI would probably crash if packs and their contents were made untradeable. Too many things are made cheap by them, and if that was to be taken away? b:shocked
^This.
At this point, in the short term, making packs and any items that come out of them untradeable would crash the economy and drive off many non-cash shop players. Long term effects would be difficult to project. While I agree gold prices would drop to pre-pack prices, the turbulence and uncertainty could very well be the final killing stroke for the game. Packs are just as tied to the economy as they are to the way people play the game and any major changes to this will have an affect on pretty much every single aspect of the game.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »Oh look it's you again with another clueless post while forgetting to read everything properly.
/troll
hey nub, of course I read everything, and if you have any effin clue by now it's that packs must NOT be removed at all for the sake of the economy. CSers pump alot of $ into the business and coins into the economy as well as those who depend on the tokens from the packs. You remove that and you remove the economy completely, making everything practically unaffordable.
Thinking all will be well if packs are removed? You hardly effin think with that peanut brain of yours."yesterday was history, tomorrow is a mystery....but today it is a gift, that is why it is called the present."
L.C. Merchantile Asset Management est.2010
(pwinsider.wordpress.com)0 -
Sagek - Sanctuary wrote: »(Also if you've seen this thread a thousand times before then ignore it, You've obviously stated your opinion before and if you can't state it again without flaming or QQing then don't bother stating it.)
So you are aware there are a thousand threads on this already yet you feel entitled to make your own?0 -
Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »^This.
At this point, in the short term, making packs and any items that come out of them untradeable would crash the economy and drive off many non-cash shop players. Long term effects would be difficult to project. While I agree gold prices would drop to pre-pack prices, the turbulence and uncertainty could very well be the final killing stroke for the game. Packs are just as tied to the economy as they are to the way people play the game and any major changes to this will have an affect on pretty much every single aspect of the game.
+1 exactly, packs are far too integrated into the economy, the last thing you need is fluctuation of gold prices back to medieval ages. Stability is key.
and I thought the currently low gold prices were enough to placate the cynics...guess not."yesterday was history, tomorrow is a mystery....but today it is a gift, that is why it is called the present."
L.C. Merchantile Asset Management est.2010
(pwinsider.wordpress.com)0 -
Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »Take packs out the game permanently, put the level 75 pots in the CS or in the apothecary to buy (or make), leave hypers in the CS (or in an NPC to buy at 100k or so) and any other semi-important items (like pages for 79 skills, veno pet food etc) in an npc to buy and all will be well.TheUnderLord - Lost City wrote: »hey nub, of course I read everything, and if you have any effin clue by now it's that packs must NOT be removed at all for the sake of the economy. CSers pump alot of $ into the business and coins into the economy as well as those who depend on the tokens from the packs. You remove that and you remove the economy completely, making everything practically unaffordable.
Thinking all will be well if packs are removed? You hardly effin think with that peanut brain of yours.
Try reading the red, stop being mad.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Kantorek: we hope to see the economy in PWI come back "down to earth" if you will."
*One week later*
"Frankieraye: Lucky Corals and Platinum Charms are going to be in the Boutique indefinitely."
*few months later, PWI puts rank8/9 into the CS insanely cheap, raising gold 1mill+*0 -
once again, you can't just remove pack that pumps so much $$ into the company, which is why that won't even be implemented in the first place. price fixing on those semi-important items still doesn't solve anything because there's nothing for them to base the prices on. for instance those hypers you mentioned fixed at 100k. That price in itself is based on tokens being 12.5k, but if you remove pack which thereby remove tokens, what is that 100k pricing reflective on??? the market needs to be fluid and just merely price fixing doesn't solve a thing."yesterday was history, tomorrow is a mystery....but today it is a gift, that is why it is called the present."
L.C. Merchantile Asset Management est.2010
(pwinsider.wordpress.com)0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »So you are aware there are a thousand threads on this already yet you feel entitled to make your own?
If there is a thread that is asking the same specific question I am asking, I am unaware of it.0 -
Sagek - Sanctuary wrote: »If there is a thread that is asking the same specific question I am asking, I am unaware of it.
Actually I can't remember someone coming up with the idea to make the pack items bound, so really the title of the thread just needs a better descriptor.
And ugh, Id half want to support this idea, but I wanna say it would drive gold through the roof, and bottom out some other items. I also would not have the shiny stuff I have now, as I have the worst luck with gambling.
However, if the "needed" things like crab, wine, Hyper stones and etc that come outta the token shop are still unbound, it may increase the price slightly, we'd just see more variety in shops than tokens surrounding the West Arch banker.pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f50 -
TheUnderLord - Lost City wrote: »+1 exactly, packs are far too integrated into the economy, the last thing you need is fluctuation of gold prices back to medieval ages. Stability is key.
and I thought the currently low gold prices were enough to placate the cynics...guess not.
Again as I stated in the first post this is NOT a thread about removing packs. Jumping to the conclusion that, that is what I want is not good. I am having a simple discussion inregards to what would happen IF packs and there content was none tradable.
Since a few of you are missing the the entire Question I will state it again.
"if they made the contents of Packs none tradable and the packs themselves none tradable how would that affect the PWI Economy, would it make merchants re-focus on Mats or other soruces of revenue would it cause such a shock to the economy that it would actually have a chance to actually fix it'self?"
How a few of you are getting I want Packs removed escapes me.. I mean Thats a pretty straight forward question..0 -
Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »Take packs out the game permanently, put the level 75 pots in the CS or in the apothecary to buy (or make), leave hypers in the CS (or in an NPC to buy at 100k or so) and any other semi-important items (like pages for 79 skills, veno pet food etc) in an npc to buy and all will be well.
There's your culprit to the whole derailing of the topic."yesterday was history, tomorrow is a mystery....but today it is a gift, that is why it is called the present."
L.C. Merchantile Asset Management est.2010
(pwinsider.wordpress.com)0 -
Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »Actually I can't remember someone coming up with the idea to make the pack items bound, so really the title of the thread just needs a better descriptor.
I've made this point a few times in the economy debates here, but I only use that as an example of how the company controls gold prices, not as an actual suggestion that should be implemented...I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »However, if the "needed" things like crab, wine, Hyper stones and etc that come outta the token shop are still unbound, it may increase the price slightly, we'd just see more variety in shops than tokens surrounding the West Arch banker.
Thats what I am curious about, I agree with the idea that it would Shock the hell out of the Economy but after the initial shock, I am curious as to how things would change and if they would change for the better.0 -
if nothings tradable then wont the AH gold go down? then again other mat prices would sky rocket so....[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]lagunal8.deviantart.com
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Sagek - Sanctuary wrote: »Thats what I am curious about, I agree with the idea that it would Shock the hell out of the Economy but after the initial shock, I am curious as to how things would change and if they would change for the better.
Define "better". Right now the only things that I see that are out of whack in relative comparison to gold prices & sales:
FF Heads
Grinding income (this comes up close though with 2x)
Merchants who can't price (see the comments in the other thread by Warrenwolfy)
People who don't know what gear is worth, particularly with refines involved.
Kinda sorta TT mats - but that is mostly affected by saturation (TT1 mats being higher than TT2 or 3 mats)
Pack prices do drive the economy, with some minor effects by Dragon Orbs and R9 stuffs. Gold wont, and should not lower past what was it...1.2 1.3m? given what you can trade in tokens for. You will/should never see gold below 1m again if Warren's math was right, unless tokens are taken out, or the stuff becomes unsellable.pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f50 -
what a silly notion that is akin to worldwide commodities, such as fruits and veggies, flowers, gold, oil...etc (you can go on listing listing them in your mind, however you must do it in Morgan Freemans voice) should be relegated to its country or region of origin. thus improvement and technology would never happen.
this notion is more than slightly silly, just get out and farm...dun be lazy and complain about the items that are in packs
btw...PWI Ecconomy is TOO BIG TO FAIL!!! QUICK SOMEONE GET US A BAILOUT AND CALL OBAMARAMA TO HEWLP US!!!b:shocked[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." ~ Thomas Jefferson0 -
TheUnderLord - Lost City wrote: »once again, you can't just remove pack that pumps so much $$ into the company, which is why that won't even be implemented in the first place. price fixing on those semi-important items still doesn't solve anything because there's nothing for them to base the prices on. for instance those hypers you mentioned fixed at 100k. That price in itself is based on tokens being 12.5k, but if you remove pack which thereby remove tokens, what is that 100k pricing reflective on??? the market needs to be fluid and just merely price fixing doesn't solve a thing.
It will actually solve a big portion of the rise in gold prices, thus making it slightly easyier for the f2p players or non heavy cash shoppers to finally be able to at least be a blip on the radar to the heavy geared CSers in TW or even PK, the whole point of me saying remove packs is that obviously it will bring gold prices down to a degree which also removes the 10mill bank notes and any other crazy high priced selling items that also comes from it, my thought that I listed in red was that we simply keep the "necessities" like the 75 pots which especially greatly helps clerics in PvE and other casters on the side.
The reason for hypers being at 100k? well it's slightly higher then the people selling them at 85k which is around the 10k mark on tokens and I think it's just generally a decent price anyway if it comes from an NPC while also removing some coin from the game (aka a coin sink, same with buying the lvl75 pots from them as well), then keeping all other decent items like I listed, then people can still be happy knowing they have the important items instead of the gold raising items, apart from the heavy CS'ers of course which have been babied through the game with 0% farming involved.
P.S it takes 2 to tango, if you hadn't repeatedly responded with angry insults and pointless comments, then it wouldn't of been "derailed", also, I was actually contributing to the topic of packs, you my friend have just been making angry quotes which made me respond.TheUnderLord - Lost City wrote: »There's your culprit to the whole derailing of the topic.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Kantorek: we hope to see the economy in PWI come back "down to earth" if you will."
*One week later*
"Frankieraye: Lucky Corals and Platinum Charms are going to be in the Boutique indefinitely."
*few months later, PWI puts rank8/9 into the CS insanely cheap, raising gold 1mill+*0 -
Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »It will actually solve a big portion of the rise in gold prices, thus making it slightly easyier for the f2p players or non heavy cash shoppers to finally be able to at least be a blip on the radar to the heavy geared CSers in TW or even PK, the whole point of me saying remove packs is that obviously it will bring gold prices down to a degree which also removes the 10mill bank notes and any other crazy high priced selling items that also comes from it, my thought that I listed in red was that we simply keep the "necessities" like the 75 pots which especially greatly helps clerics in PvE and other casters on the side.
The reason for hypers being at 100k? well it's slightly higher then the people selling them at 85k which is around the 10k mark on tokens and I think it's just generally a decent price anyway if it comes from an NPC while also removing some coin from the game (aka a coin sink, same with buying the lvl75 pots from them as well), then keeping all other decent items like I listed, then people can still be happy knowing they have the important items instead of the gold raising items, apart from the heavy CS'ers of course which have been babied through the game with 0% farming involved.
With the way the game has progressed, coin has never been easier to make than before. Farming NV, grinds, hh runs, 2x drops, have all contributed to the inflationary levels, it's just the way it is for now. The vast majority of players are geared with either Rank 8 or Nirv, they have the means to farm and sell an abundance of goods on the market at decent value.
Removing 10 mil bank notes also doesn't remove the fact that the total amount of TW coin rewards brings in 2.3billion (according to frankie) every month. That's quite a substantial addition to the economy.
The Gold prices has to be the way they are due to the average value that's inherent in 1 pack (approximately 400-430k), removing packs will only collapse the gold market alongside the token market that goes with it. After that, no one will want to purchase zhen to get gold to sell to get the things they want to buy. By that point you remove the incentive for people to play this game to make coins and get better gears.
Plus, with the farmers and others who have accumulated a substantial amount of coins while gold may turn into 500k each do what? Gold price will definitely shoot up as people compete for the cheapest gold in a gold shortage since packs would be removed.
Just as essential as those semi-important items like pots & hypers, pack drives are important to maintaining the economy the way it is or it will collapse, and the company will definitely go under because NOTHING has been as lucrative as packs (perhaps you can also include rank 9 sales).Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »P.S it takes 2 to tango, if you hadn't repeatedly responded with angry insults and pointless comments, then it wouldn't of been "derailed", also, I was actually contributing to the topic of packs, you my friend have just been making angry quotes which made me respond.
re-read the OP's first post, he was talking specifically about the potential effects of making all items from packs NON-TRADEABLE. NOT REMOVING PACKS ENTIRELY. So yea, perhaps it is you who's been making pointless comments.Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »Take packs out the game permanently, put the level 75 pots in the CS or in the apothecary to buy (or make), leave hypers in the CS (or in an NPC to buy at 100k or so) and any other semi-important items (like pages for 79 skills, veno pet food etc) in an npc to buy and all will be well."yesterday was history, tomorrow is a mystery....but today it is a gift, that is why it is called the present."
L.C. Merchantile Asset Management est.2010
(pwinsider.wordpress.com)0 -
PWE follows this thought and makes packs untradeable and the items untradeable also
1st day implemented - Ok, things seem to be ok..
1st day implemented (12 hrs after being implemented) - Wait...what...Our gold dropped HOW much?? b:shock
2nd day implemented: OMG NO!!! QUICK MERGE THE SERVERS!!!
3rd day implemented: Game dead, servers offline. PWE can't even salvage the game.
That give you and idea of what might happen if packs became a Bind on Pickup (BoP) item?Nothing worthwhile to mention here, enjoy the animated signature~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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