Its getting Out of Hand

TolanSky - Heavens Tear · December 2011

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Your comment strikes me as odd given that you said exactly what Asterelle already said.

Not from where I am standing, Asterelle said you could open a single Perfect Token of Best Luck, sell it to an NPC and immediately make 5 million coins. I made the distinction that you in fact need 2 Perfect Token of Best Luck to make any kind of reasonable profit. If what I said was one in the same as what Asterelle said, then Asterelle's math was wrong.

Decus - Dreamweaver · December 2011

TolanSky - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not from where I am standing, Asterelle said you could open a single Perfect Token of Best Luck, sell it to an NPC and immediately make 5 million coins. I made the distinction that you in fact need 2 Perfect Token of Best Luck to make any kind of reasonable profit. If what I said was one in the same as what Asterelle said, then Asterelle's math was wrong.

You're splitting hairs. Both you and him claim the value of one Best Luck Token is 5 million coins.

The argument is solid.

TolanSky - Heavens Tear · December 2011

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're splitting hairs. Both you and him claim the value of one Best Luck Token is 5 million coins.

The argument is solid.

The difference is in how a person obtains the 5 million coins. As has been explained in another thread, the only way to actually use Best Luck Tokens to ADD coin to the server is by using 2 Best Luck Tokens to purchase a 10 Million Bank Note. If however an individual were to sell their Best Luck Token to another player for immediate gratification, they would not really be making 5 million coins (10 million in the former example). Rather they would simply be reallocating currency that already exists on that server.

So I personally think that my distinction between identifying Best Luck Tokens as being worth jack when sold individually is an important distinction. It is only when you trade them in for 10 Million Bank Notes that any actual value is placed upon them, and by proxy it is because of said value being placed upon them by the PW Boutique Agent, that we actually recognize them as being worth 5 million coins on an individual basis.

My argument that while Perfect World Entertainment is more than capable (and indeed within their rights) to set the minimum value of any given item (usually the value items sell to the NPC's known as Merchants, though some exceptions do occur as in the case of Perfect Tokens of Best Luck) they do not usually determine the maximum value of items, which is more frequently determined by the players. I mean do you think it was the desire of the company that Matchless Wings ultimately end up selling for the common price of over 100 million coins despite having a comparatively low NPC price? I certainly doubt that was their goal when they put it in the packs.

karmelia · December 2011

KrittyCat wrote: »

Does PWE hold a proverbial gun to players' heads to make them buy? No? Then it's the same as any capitalist economy.

Anyway, this topic has been discussed over and over again, with no conclusion made other than the fact that players control the economy, and choose to sell gold at high prices to make money for themselves.

It's certainly not the players who removed the 1 millions selling price limit on gold in the AH.....

And when this subject arise, I cannot forget the infamous speech Xarfox gave us on the subject a while ago...

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3533372&postcount=1

Valirah - Sanctuary · December 2011

TolanSky - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The difference is in how a person obtains the 5 million coins. As has been explained in another thread, the only way to actually use Best Luck Tokens to ADD coin to the server is by using 2 Best Luck Tokens to purchase a 10 Million Bank Note. If however an individual were to sell their Best Luck Token to another player for immediate gratification, they would not really be making 5 million coins (10 million in the former example). Rather they would simply be reallocating currency that already exists on that server.

So I personally think that my distinction between identifying Best Luck Tokens as being worth jack when sold individually is an important distinction. It is only when you trade them in for 10 Million Bank Notes that any actual value is placed upon them, and by proxy it is because of said value being placed upon them by the PW Boutique Agent, that we actually recognize them as being worth 5 million coins on an individual basis.

Are you really that dense? It doesn't matter if the first person sells the ToBL to another player, as long as SOMEONE eventually turns in 2 to make the 10M note.

Divine_Death - Harshlands · December 2011

KrittyCat wrote: »

Does PWE hold a proverbial gun to players' heads to make them buy? No? Then it's the same as any capitalist economy.

Anyway, this topic has been discussed over and over again, with no conclusion made other than the fact that players control the economy, and choose to sell gold at high prices to make money for themselves.

You really can't be this naive. So then you are just shamelessly kissing up to PWE to keep your "job". Does PWE point a gun to your head and force you to mod? No, and even though it's more work, you do it anyways because you believe you are "getting a good deal". Not exactly, but bare with me here. Every trade completed, either through player trades or gold buying/selling, both side agree to it and both believe it was a fair deal. One side might wish they could have paid less or gotten more, but they would take the trade than not having the trade at all. No one buy gold at 1.9 mil if they don't think it's worth it. And what PWE control is the sales that make buying gold at high price worth it. I buy hundreds of gold each day at 1.9 to 2 mil because it's worth it and profitable with curent sale price. I wouldn't buy gold at 1.9 mil, therefore "setting a 1.9 mil gold price" 3 month ago because the sales back then wasn't worth 1.9 mil gold. Price of gold, just like everything else, is controlled by supply and demand. PWE plays with demand through sales. Players don't "decide" to buy or sell gold randomly for 50% more overnight if there isn't a sale.

truekossy · December 2011

TolanSky - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The difference is in how a person obtains the 5 million coins. As has been explained in another thread, the only way to actually use Best Luck Tokens to ADD coin to the server is by using 2 Best Luck Tokens to purchase a 10 Million Bank Note. If however an individual were to sell their Best Luck Token to another player for immediate gratification, they would not really be making 5 million coins (10 million in the former example). Rather they would simply be reallocating currency that already exists on that server.

Let's face facts here.

1: In order to buy an item via catshop, you must already have one of whatever it is you're buying.
2: If you sell a best luck to a catshop, the player in the catshop now has at least 2 best lucks by the basic math of 1+1=2
3: Now that the 5 mil has been re-allocated, the catshop player can now spawn 10mil out of nowhere by virtue of having 2 best lucks.

In other words, stop trying to nitpick.

MiniST - Sanctuary · December 2011

karmelia wrote: »

It's certainly not the players who removed the 1 millions selling price limit on gold in the AH.....

And when this subject arise, I cannot forget the infamous speech Xarfox gave us on the subject a while ago...

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3533372&postcount=1

there was never a 1 million selling price limit on gold, it is 10mil.

LosTEscape - Lost City · December 2011

lordmarik25 wrote: »

if gold price is high people will buy up more gold hence PWI stacks** paper to the ceiling but I buy gold whatever price is at, I don't believe a GM would buy gold...or maybe I don't want to beleive...

Mingkeey - Lost City wrote: »

i cant wait till one gold is five mill each.hahahab:dirty maybe it will scare everyone off the game and play something elseb:dirty

Some people doesnt even care about gold and its price, couse they use items witch are not (directly) affected by gold prices, like mold gear and such. Actually all the farmable stuff is really cheap. So the high gold prices wont scare everyone off.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · December 2011

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is not really true. The majority of the current gold price is determined by the company and not any player market.

Consider the anni pack: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/20191
Perfect -Token of Luck - 15 (97%)
Perfect -Token of Best Luck (1.715%)

Those tokens of luck can be sold directly to an NPC for 10k each in coins and the Best Luck for 5m each.

Just these two alone contribute:
15*10k*.97 + 5,000k*.01715 = 231k
231k to the value of the pack in total absence of any player market

The anniversary pack when bought in bulk costs 22 silver. Even factoring in the 2% AH fee.

231K / .22 / 1.02 = 1029 k

Just looking at the tokens from the Anniversary Pack and totally ignoring any player market and totally ignoring every other item in the Anniversary Pack gold would be pegged at 1.029M.

The tokens are contributing the majority influence on the price of gold, not the players. The player market is a minority influence.

You used a term, 'minority influence', there.

Looking at your math, anni packs are driving gold to a base price of 1 mil, give or take. If Gold currently is approx 2 mil, and 2/1= 1, and 1m = 1m, then that means that, give or take, PWE has about half the influence on the current gold price (assuming, of course, Anni packs were the only thing driving gold prices up). So, if packs are half the influence on the current price of Gold, then where is the rest of the influence PWE has on gold prices? Because 1/2 doesn't look like a "Majority", it looks like "Half", and player influence looks like "The other half".

Or is this Majority/minority here 51/49?

Or am I missing something? Because having watched the market in times current, and what the PLAYERS do, they tend to jack up prices a lot, until someone else undercuts them back to the bottom line (if they ever do in the end anyway).

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary · December 2011

Oh please, for the love of beef, not this stupid debate AGAIN... b:cry

Look, I eagerly pay boat-loads of coins to get as much Gold as I can at 1,900,000 each, and do you know why?

Because truck-loads (moving from sea to land here) of players are willing to pay 444,000 coins for Packs, that's why.

You players who cry and whine and moan and complain about how high Gold prices are might as well cry that water is wet, or that wool is itchy, because PWI ain't listenin'.

Or maybe you really think Gold could actually still be sold for what it used to sell for a long time ago (when the Earth was green, there was more kinds of animals than you've ever seen)? Like, as in a lot less than current prices? Really? Wow, you really do. Just out of polite curiosity, are you abusing legal mood enhancers (I'm partial to rum and coke, myself), or perhaps even using illegal ones?

Well here's a REALITY CHECK for you:

If Gold was 400k, that would mean Packs would cost 90k each! Ha ha ha! AS IF!b:chuckle

Packs pay out about 430k in prizes, on average, which is why Gold prices SHOULD end up approximately where they are, right now!

At 90k each, *I'd* be opening the darn things, and I never open the darn things. I let the <del>suckers</del> customers do that for me.

So why is Gold so high? Because PWI has decreed, "Verily! The price for thine blessed Packs shall be 0.22 Gold per Pack upon this day. Thus spaketh the blessed marketing department."

It's 1.9 million because that's a completely rational price, based upon the basic math that underpins the economy of the game. PWI sets the exchange rate, and the exchange rate sets the prices. If you don't understand it, and would rather claim it is set by players, or greedy merchants, or "supply and demand" (man I'm sick of hearing that one from every wanna-be economist who doesn't actually have a penny of profits to show for all their beloved theory), or purple-spotted dogs, go right ahead, but you're simply wrong.

LosTEscape - Lost City · December 2011

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh please, for the love of beef, not this stupid debate AGAIN... b:cry

Look, I eagerly pay boat-loads of coins to get as much Gold as I can at 1,900,000 each, and do you know why?

Because truck-loads (moving from sea to land here) of players are willing to pay 444,000 coins for Packs, that's why.

You players who cry and whine and moan and complain about how high Gold prices are might as well cry that water is wet, or that wool is itchy, because PWI ain't listenin'.

Or maybe you really think Gold could actually still be sold for what it used to sell for long long ago (when the Earth was green and there were more kinds of animals than you'd ever seen)? Like, as in a lot less than current prices? Really? Wow, you really do. Just out of polite curiosity, are you abusing legal mood enhancers (I'm partial to rum and coke, myself), or perhaps even using illegal ones?

Well here's a REALITY CHECK for you:

If Gold was 400k, that would mean Packs would cost 90k each! Ha ha ha! AS IF!b:chuckle

Packs pay out about 430k in prizes, on average, which is why Gold prices SHOULD end up approximately where they are, right now!

At 90k each, *I'd* be opening the darn things, and I never open the darn things. I let the <del>suckers</del> customers do that for me.

So why is Gold so high? Because PWI has decreed, "Verily! The price for thine blessed Packs shall be 0.22 Gold per Pack upon this day. Thus spaketh the blessed marketing department."

It's 1.9 million because that's a completely rational price, based upon the basic math that underpins the economy of the game. PWI sets the exchange rate, and the exchange rate sets the prices. If you don't understand it, and would rather claim it is set by players, or greedy merchants, or "supply and demand" (man I'm sick of hearing that one from every wanna-be economist who doesn't actually have a penny of profits to show for all their beloved theory), or purple-spotted dogs, go right ahead, but you're simply wrong.

I love you.
Now, do you play pwi like really play or just log on to sell stuff? (Not meant to offend you, just curious)

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary · December 2011

LosTEscape - Lost City wrote: »

I love you.
Now, do you play pwi like really play or just log on to sell stuff? (Not meant to offend you, just curious)

It goes in phases, actually.

For a few weeks I'll almost never play, then I'll start playing again.

I do, however, always maintain a shop that's generating income, in anticipation of the next time I want to play again.

StormHydra - Sanctuary · December 2011

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

"Verily! The price for thine blessed Packs shall be 0.22 Gold per Pack upon this day. Thus spaketh the blessed marketing department."

ಠ_ಠ

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's 1.9 million because that's a completely rational price, based upon the basic math that underpins the economy of the game. PWI sets the exchange rate, and the exchange rate sets the prices. If you don't understand it, and would rather claim it is set by players, or greedy merchants, or "supply and demand" (man I'm sick of hearing that one from every wanna-be economist who doesn't actually have a penny of profits to show for all their beloved theory), or purple-spotted dogs, go right ahead, but you're simply wrong.

ಥ_ಥ

/thread

Tsukyini - Raging Tide · December 2011

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

PWI has decreed, "Verily! The price for thine blessed Packs shall be 0.22 Gold per Pack upon this day. Thus spaketh the blessed marketing department."

You are awesome! b:dirty

Abyzou - Raging Tide · December 2011

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

If Gold currently is approx 2 mil, and 2/1= 1, and 1m = 1m

When has two divided by one EVER equaled one? b:puzzled

Massad - Harshlands · December 2011

MiniST - Sanctuary wrote: »

there was never a 1 million selling price limit on gold, it is 10mil.

its 4 mill

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy76/Perigrine85/2011-12-1720-06-40.jpg

How many times do I have to post this ssb:sad

and somebody grab a calcutor... 2 divided by 1= 2 I know I suck at math and use that redneck formula but still that one is easy

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver · December 2011

Hmm the why is easily figured----The very best gear in the game for every class other than sins/bms is rank 9 and even they will want rank 9 too. Everyone in the game should want atleast rank 8. Ideally once rank gear is bought with gold only then orbs come into play. In the end, coin is only usefull for buying 2nd/3rd rate items,tokens, and skills.

If I had gold I would surely not trade it to you for coin.

Luckily there is still some fools who will.

truekossy · December 2011

MiniST - Sanctuary wrote: »

there was never a 1 million selling price limit on gold, it is 10mil.

Were you not here during the Duke Rose fiasco when gold rose to the 1mil cap on all servers? b:sweat

magicsabre · December 2011

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...
If I had gold I would surely not trade it to you for coin.

Luckily there is still some fools who will.

Some items and services easy to buy using coins.

It is cheap.

Example:
1. Skills - player need to pay coins for skills.
2. DQ items can be bought using coins too.
3. Items with random ++++ bonuses (including -interval, etc.) can be bought using coins also.
4. Genies.
5. Wine for bh
6. Items from packs (better sometimes to buy from player than gamble)

7. FC runs (more or less main income for some Assassins).
8. Tank or Cleric for bh or for Oracles

And many more.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · December 2011

KrittyCat wrote: »

Does PWE hold a proverbial gun to players' heads to make them buy? No? Then it's the same as any capitalist economy.

But it's not the same as any capitalist economy. Far from it. In the US we have the SEC to protect us from corporate fraud. There is no such protections from PWE influencing the economy.

And if you think PWE doesn't influence the economy more than the players themselves controlling it, you're delusional.

magicsabre · December 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

But it's not the same as any capitalist economy. Far from it. In the US we have the SEC to protect us from corporate fraud. There is no such protections from PWE influencing the economy.

And if you think PWE doesn't influence the economy more than the players themselves controlling it, you're delusional.

Most of gold go out for rank equipment, packs and Dragon Orbs.

Players consume those items.

Coins (from packs, sold DQ and other items) remain inside game .

Gold raise in price.

Rank equipment, packs and Dragon Orbs buy those, that have enough coins to buy gold -heap of the PWI society as at any capitalist economy.

TolanSky - Heavens Tear · December 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

But it's not the same as any capitalist economy. Far from it. In the US we have the SEC to protect us from corporate fraud. There is no such protections from PWE influencing the economy.

And if you think PWE doesn't influence the economy more than the players themselves controlling it, you're delusional.

list specific ways in which the American and European Branches of the company that produces this Game which is actually owned by a corporation based in China, in any way have direct influence over the in game economy of this game. I will list where you are wrong.

For reference, as far as I am aware "Perfect World Entertainment (or PWE for short)" refers to the American and European Branches of the overarching corporation. Wanmei on the otherhand refers to the company as a whole.

Mods/GM's, if I am wrong regarding the distinctions between Wanmei and PWE, please correct me.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · December 2011

TolanSky - Heavens Tear wrote: »

list specific ways in which the American and European Branches of the company that produces this Game which is actually owned by a corporation based in China, in any way have direct influence over the in game economy of this game. I will list where you are wrong.

For reference, as far as I am aware "Perfect World Entertainment (or PWE for short)" refers to the American and European Branches of the overarching corporation. Wanmei on the otherhand refers to the company as a whole.

Mods/GM's, if I am wrong regarding the distinctions between Wanmei and PWE, please correct me.

Reducing prices of high price items. Dragon Orbs for example. If PWI put +12 orbs in for $10, you're saying the value of gold wouldn't change? If it does change, who is directly responsible, the consumer?

It is PWE who is responsible for managing their game economy. It would be irresponsible of them NOT to. High gold prices benefits PWE. It influences people to charge money instead of farming or merchanting.

If you don't think PWE has any control over the economy, you're sadly mistaken. I'm sure there is a whole department in China that specifically monitors it. It's essential to the life of the game.

As for PWI directly? They don't care. PW-CN only cares how their servers are doing and anything that is done there is strictly monitored. Here, the game has gone to **** due to mis-management.

Edit: And imagine this... if the US Government decided to start selling an unlimited amount of 3 bedroom houses for $50,000 and an unlimited amount of brand new cars for $1000, what do you think that would do to the economy? Who ultimately would be responsible for killing the vehicle and housing markets, the consumer or the government? By your remarks, it would all be the consumer's fault.

bladerunnerdm · December 2011

KrittyCat wrote: »

Even then, it's only via user accounts, which have no more special privileges than any other players. A GM account cannot be used to buy or sell gold.

GMs have the possibility to buy and sell gold like any other player!

Divine_Death - Harshlands · December 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Edit: And imagine this... if the US Government decided to start selling an unlimited amount of 3 bedroom houses for $50,000 and an unlimited amount of brand new cars for $1000, what do you think that would do to the economy? Who ultimately would be responsible for killing the vehicle and housing markets, the consumer or the government? By your remarks, it would all be the consumer's fault.

Or if a company decided that they will sell unlimited amount of cars for 1 ounce of gold and houses for 5 ounces of gold. And those of you think the price of gold irl wouldn't go up? Or would it be consumers' fault? You change what an unit of gold can buy like PWE did, 1 gold for 3 packs instead of 1, you change the worth if gold and therefore its price.

Hovinski - Harshlands · December 2011

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh please, for the love of beef, not this stupid debate AGAIN... b:cry

was about to say that.

i rly wondering about these kind of ppl who whine:
"PWE is greedy they making Gold Price high, players are greedy they're selling Gold Price high"

look in the mirror, then slap urself

Are those ppl who complains and expect to buy Gold at cheap price cant be categorized as greedy too?
Just because u'r in buying position doesnt make u the right one or the victim.

"PWE is greedy"
hey look, last time I check, they dont raise a single buck for 1 Gold Price if u buy them with real money.

"PWE is greedy"
hey look, couple of times I see them putting several Cash Shop items on sale.

"GM is buying Gold to raise the Price"
hey look, I have unicorn horn in my forehead and actually GM doesnt exist, they're actually an AI program that lives inside the Server Machine.

/Thread

_Ghoul_ - Lost City · December 2011

i buy gold so i can be a vit build barb is that greedy as pwi love aps fanatic f2p losers.

so keep using claw and think you have better right then a barb who wish to play his class as it was sopused to play.

as i have visa and i can maintain my build just fine and if gold sell high well why not its not like i can farm like sin and all the aps do.

balance in this game is broken some of us just try to manage as we can sadly.

chaoticshelly · December 2011

bladerunnerdm wrote: »

GMs have the possibility to buy and sell gold like any other player!

No, they don't.

gyroki · December 2011

There r several reasons for an increased gold price.

1st: perma-sales (already discussed enough here)

2nd: there exist now many ppl with many well geared 100+ toons who can farm like hell (there r
enough 12/24h gamer who can farm 1 billion and more within 4 weeks of 2x drop; soloing all kind of squad mode HHs isnt a big deal for most of us. Glitches help in addition. Nv, even glitch-caster-nvs r for cheapies. For those ppl 2m per gold isnt a big deal. They r glad that there r still some ppl who sell gold.

3rd: not enough newcommers (in comparison to old op player base)

4th: packs-addicted ppl

5th: better BH rewards (we get more often ecstasy cards now and sometimes even an excitement card. So even occasional gamer below average dont have to sell gold anymore to e.g. lvl up their skills to 10.

6th: merchants keep prices up/ control some parts of market

7th: releases of other mmorpgs (this point will influence market in future even way more, thats for sure. PWE can feel lucky that so many wannabe mmo blockbusters over the last 2-3 years were epic fails. Its crazy that there wasnt much improvement in mmo games last ~5 years. Its a market where u can make millions. But obvioulsly managers fear the risk of failing and dont spent alot for developement. Maybe already the year 2012 will be a year of change).

Its getting Out of Hand

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