Nirvana Talismans.. so unfair..

Broederjr - Lost City

would also be fair if they give them same skills and hp as real nv but we all know pwe isnt a fair company they care about money .money right now is aps not a caster

thumbs

Out of 6 toons I play; only 2 are melee and one of those 2 is my least priority. Whining about Nirvana and aps is getting old. Casters PWN melee in other areas and some have been on par for profitability with equal or even less investment. The few times I ran caster Nirvana; I couldn't believe how fast it went when there were some very poor toons in the squad! We're talking the equivalent of 3.33 aps and less mages getting their Nirvana fix at the speed of a 5.0 squad! 5.0 squads aren't taking 3.33; do they whine?

Fintan - Lost City

thumbs wrote: »

5.0 squads aren't taking 3.33; do they whine?

Yes. In World Chat. Thankfully, they seem to get pounded by blue chat telling them to shush. I ask them if they'd take my 1.00... b:chuckle

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver

caster nirvana, 3 runs, average ~13 min, total mats 13 raps and 40 cannies, i like that

Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

caster nirvana, 3 runs, average ~13 min, total mats 13 raps and 40 cannies, i like that

13 min is awesome! which classes where in your squad?
I run a couple yesterday and we were able to make it in 20 min with:
1 R9 Mistyc
3 R8 Wizzys (refines on wep +7 - +8 and +9 , hp 5k - 5.8k - 4k)
1 Veno.. (not Rank was there to give sparks to the cleric)
1 Cleric (TT 90 - 95 with 4k hp only)

The drops were good but my point still is.. why we just can t use the same keys for both nirvana`s? is ther any chance that pwi can change this? can any gm read this thread and ask pls?

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

caster nirvana, 3 runs, average ~13 min, total mats 13 raps and 40 cannies, i like that

that 13 raps and 40 cannies splitt to 6? nah ty, I'll stay on my sin and spam 3 man runs and use the wiz's talismans for US. Faster, cheaper (no charm ticks) , same results, repeat as many time/day as I want (actually as many times as I have free time to do it).
Yeah, caster Nirv is great for the ones that just refused to make a melee alt or to wash the taste of endless aps runs with a caster run.
But the talisman limit of 3/day - and the fact that you can't effin stack them and they're timed it's just such a bullsh.it and a bad duct tape fix to the issue of non existent casters in nirvana that it passes the border from bad into ridiculous terrirory.

Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

13 min is awesome! which classes where in your squad?
....

don't bother too much, it's about maxed out r8/9 toons.

XxAdiciaxx - Sanctuary

ok so casters get their own nirvana and get to do the other one as well and they still complain. i play a bm my class has no effect in caster nirvana. tell me should regular nirvana be off limits to casters if they get three of the nirvana talismans a day plus the ones from bh? maybe that will stop ppl from complaining about getting a squad quest that excludes physical classes. why not just take caster nirvana away as a solution.. that would make it more fair for barbs, sins, bms etc... hmmm.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Caster Nirvana, from what i've heard from people who went with good squads, takes half that time. 20-30 minutes.

WOW.... this is new. Even people who never set foot in caster nirvana is complaining about it taking too long. Let me ask you something... which severely underpowered squad did you get your info from? 20-30 minutes for a single caster nirv? Even the half assed (evident below) squad takes 20 minutes. The veno and the cleric can count as half at best... so thats a 5 member squad. A random top grade magic dd can finish in 10 minutes.... organized squad can finish under 10.

Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

13 min is awesome! which classes where in your squad?
I run a couple yesterday and we were able to make it in 20 min with:
1 R9 Mistyc
3 R8 Wizzys (refines on wep +7 - +8 and +9 , hp 5k - 5.8k - 4k)
1 Veno.. (not Rank was there to give sparks to the cleric)
1 Cleric (TT 90 - 95 with 4k hp only)

Yami_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Perfect World hates casters specially Wizards, soon that you learn that and make a Assassin/Cleric/BM It's better for you b:surrender

I might actually feel sorry for wizards... if not for them hitting me 500% weapon damage.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

don`t you think is really unfair that casters only get one talisman to do casters nirvy plus the ones you get from bh`s, and the other classes get 3 keys for nirvana plus the ones they get from bh`s?

actually would you even use all that if given, is the question >.> nowadays pple like to invite 101+ >_>

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

WOW.... this is new. Even people who never set foot in caster nirvana is complaining about it taking too long. Let me ask you something... which severely underpowered squad did you get your info from? 20-30 minutes for a single caster nirv? Even the half assed (evident below) squad takes 20 minutes. The veno and the cleric can count as half at best... so thats a 5 member squad. A random top grade magic dd can finish in 10 minutes.... organized squad can finish under 10.

A) I'll be 100 soon enough. The people who told me this weren't all rank 8 either, so I suppose that does have some impact. Me myself, I will be when I hit 100 because I'm capable of reading the pro and cons of gear without equipping. Shocker, I know.

You don't actually have to play a class, or do something to recognize it's impact. Nirvana is something that has huge impact on the economy, it would be stupid not to research it ahead of time to understand how it works, what classes are best, why you shouldn't rely on caster nirvana, etc. You don't have to merchant to understand how packs/rank gear effected the economy either. Or do you think only sins/bms are allowed to have an opinion on APS? You don't have roll a sin to realize how much more damage they do than everyone else.

In this case, simple common sense tells me that letting Group A get money from farming a nearly infinite amount of times while Group B has to farm at 1/6th that rate is going to result in Group A having way more money than Group B. Common sense also says that letting Group B farm a shorter instance three times, while Group A can farm the real version 30 times, isn't going to do much. It doesn't change the fact that Group A farms faster, better, and more often and thus have way more money than Group B can compete with.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In this case, simple common sense tells me that letting Group A get money from farming a nearly infinite amount of times while Group B has to farm at 1/6th that rate is going to result in Group A having way more money than Group B. Common sense also says that letting Group B farm a shorter instance three times, while Group A can farm the real version 30 times, isn't going to do much. It doesn't change the fact that Group A farms faster, better, and more often and thus have way more money than Group B can compete with.

Really now... aps can farm at 1/6 the rate of casters? My archer has been in a 10 minute caster nirvana... in order for an aps squad to farm at 1/6 of that speed. The aps squad would need to finish under 2 minutes... and I have yet run into a single squad that's capable of that.

As someone who is capable of farming both nirvana. One on one... caster nirvana is way more profitable then regular nirvana. By doing BHs... I can cruise through two caster nirvana in 20 minutes for a profit of 2-3 million coins. On the other hand... I can probably get 3 regular nirvana done in the same 20 minutes... for a profit of about 2 million. Even if I add in the extra key from BH... I might get the same 2-3 million... but in 25+ minutes.

So overall... If i were to op for caster nirvana every day over regular nirvana. I would have gotten the same amount of money in less time... and two extra keys. It does pay to have a bow capable of out damaging cleric and mystics of similar grade/refine... while also rival +10 5aps.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Really now... aps can farm at 1/6 the rate of casters? My archer has been in a 10 minute caster nirvana... in order for an aps squad to farm at 1/6 of that speed. The aps squad would need to finish under 2 minutes... and I have yet run into a single squad that's capable of that.

As someone who is capable of farming both nirvana. One on one... caster nirvana is way more profitable then regular nirvana. By doing BHs... I can cruise through two caster nirvana in 20 minutes for a profit of 2-3 million coins. On the other hand... I can probably get 3 regular nirvana done in the same 20 minutes... for a profit of about 2 million. Even if I add in the extra key from BH... I might get the same 2-3 million... but in 25+ minutes.

So overall... If i were to op for caster nirvana every day over regular nirvana. I would have gotten the same amount of money in less time... and two extra keys. It does pay to have a bow capable of out damaging cleric and mystics of similar grade/refine... while also rival +10 5aps.

Ah, my apologies I meant that if a caster tried to run their own nirvanas in addition to caster nirvana, and included squad finding time but I really didn't make that clear in my post. My apologies. :P Although I think that seeker vid showed a run that lasted a little over 5 minutes. But I digress. And if you're only doing 3 runs, it's probably more profitable. But most people who seriously farm it are doing it more than that, they use their keys and then buy other peoples. There are also more keys provided than talismans. OP just wants the talisman, key distribution to be equal.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ah, my apologies I meant that if a caster tried to run their own nirvanas in addition to caster nirvana, and included squad finding time but I really didn't make that clear in my post. My apologies. :P Although I think that seeker vid showed a run that lasted a little over 5 minutes. But I digress. And if you're only doing 3 runs, it's probably more profitable. But most people who seriously farm it are doing it more than that, they use their keys and then buy other peoples. There are also more keys provided than talismans. OP just wants the talisman, key distribution to be equal.

I already said that I am one of the very few who has the capability to run both caster and regular nirvana on the same character And from personal experience... I can definitely say that on average one caster nirvana is more profitable then one regular nirvana. But I guess you miss the part where I said that I'll need 4 regular nirvana to match the profit from 2 caster nirvana. Maybe your research should tell you that the most profitable part of nirvana is the rap drops from the last boss. And during 2x... caster nirvana has chance of 6 rap drops... while regular only have four. If you want everything to be equally distributed... maybe you should also point out that the rap drop rate for caster nirvana should be nerfed.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I already said that I am one of the very few who has the capability to run both caster and regular nirvana on the same character And from personal experience... I can definitely say that on average one caster nirvana is more profitable then one regular nirvana. But I guess you miss the part where I said that I'll need 4 regular nirvana to match the profit from 2 caster nirvana. Maybe your research should tell you that the most profitable part of nirvana is the rap drops from the last boss. And during 2x... caster nirvana has chance of 6 rap drops... while regular only have four. If you want everything to be equally distributed... maybe you should also point out that the rap drop rate for caster nirvana should be nerfed.

Again, you're comparing one to one. I've personally not seen anyone farm caster nirvana at the rate, and as often a day as they do regular nirvana. I do see people complaining that they wish they could. It's what the OP is complaining about, not the drop rate. Not a comparison of them side by side. As if any serious farmer only runs it based off how many keys they get during a day, specially during 2x. Why buy keys if it's so unprofitable? Why not just powerlevel a caster to 100 and spam caster nirvana, if it's that easy to spam. Like a lot of casters did with their farming sins? It's cause it's not as spamable as nirvana. They make more money because they can run it more often. Not because the drop rate is so much better. It's like this I can give you 30 bucks now, or 10 dollars an hour. Sure the 30 bucks is more than the 10 you get that first hour, but in 24 hours you will have 240 dollars. You make more money even if the first couple of payments are lower. How is that hard to understand?

thumbs

Oh yes, pwe hates casters. -gotta love that bs! Try rolling a sin, barb, bm, etc and go purely old school. For a long time barbs were hard to find. BMs weren't desirable as tanks. Assassins are pathetic until a fortune is invested in them after lvl 99! Meanwhile mystics are soloing things before other classes can, get no reduced dmg aoes on [?] mobs/ bosses, and will probably be one of if not the first classes to solo an RB. As a 5.0 +10 assassin; I've had decent normal Nirvana runs with clerics, and venomancers. My wiz easily gets in RB squads while not so easy on Assassin (can be a culti issue).

What's not fair is that they gave us caster nirvana to begin with! It's gravy even for crappy casters. -Keep whining cause apparently it works.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why not just powerlevel a caster to 100 and spam caster nirvana, if it's that easy to spam. Like a lot of casters did with their farming sins? It's cause it's not as spamable as nirvana. They make more money because they can run it more often. Not because the drop rate is so much better. It's like this I can give you 30 bucks now, or 10 dollars an hour. Sure the 30 bucks is more than the 10 you get that first hour, but in 24 hours you will have 240 dollars. You make more money even if the first couple of payments are lower. How is that hard to understand?

Casters making Farming sins? -lol. For what you spend to make a decent farming sin; you may as well have just put it in your caster instead. It's not like you can even share equips with it. You'd be better off raising a bunch of casters that can share equips and doing bh100's, getting 4 keys a day per toon, saving them for 99key quests during 2x, and having a good chance of some great bh rewards daily.

Did I mention casters pwn at Warsong Metal and Fire?

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

thumbs wrote: »

Casters making Farming sins? -lol. For what you spend to make a decent farming sin; you may as well have just put it in your caster instead. It's not like you can even share equips with it. You'd be better off raising a bunch of casters that can share equips and doing bh100's, getting 4 keys a day per toon, saving them for 99key quests during 2x, and having a good chance of some great bh rewards daily.

Did I mention casters pwn at Warsong Metal and Fire?

Thumbs, for once we agree on something. b:pleased I have a sin, but not just as a farming character. It's my legitimate alt and I enjoy it, even if I absolutely hated it at first.

Burnout - Harshlands

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It does pay to have a bow capable of out damaging cleric and mystics of similar grade/refine... while also rival +10 5aps.

I just want to point out something. My R9 +10 mystic's caster pet storm mistress nukes the end boss (vanished ancestor ex) for 35-40k damage every 2.5 s. There is not a single other caster, R9 +12 or otherwise, that can pull aggro off the pet. My nature's vengeance is lucky to hit 35k on a triple sparked crit.

On other bosses is hits ~12-15k. Less impressive, but it's still pretty dang hard compared to other classes who have to deal with 4x damage reduction. And that's combined with my mystic's regular hits of ~8-9k (? not sure).

Combine that with the fact that we can debuff ~20% elemental defense, and have a thicket that hits for 50-60k damage, and Mystics are absolutely the #1 class to bring in there for dps.

If it weren't for the hassle of having to bring in 5 people with nirv talismans, I could probably solo the entire thing in 30 minutes. A group of 6 decently geared R8/R9 mystics could blow through that instance in under 5 minutes, easily, as my mystic already does ~600-700k damage / minute to ?? lvl bosses. So no, your archer is not going to outdamage a mystic who knows how to take advantage of their OP pve skillsets (for a caster, anyway).

Needless to say, I don't even bother with regular nirvana anymore.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

tbh, i dont understand w this thread. I mean yeah some ppl kinda whine why we cant stack talisman. and why only 24 hours u must do and if not will be expire. my experience as cleric doing caster and compare than my experience doing normal nirvana:

1. Not many run in normal nirvana been done while not double drops. and caster still doing it cause if good drops and expire if u not use. what u get: money, money and money. cause when not double drops canny and rapt price is good. so Caster nirvana is good place to farm for mage class. i gain like 1 mill every run during not double drops. so 3 run means 3 million for me. and its really not hard to make caster nirvana squad cause of all mage class want to do this to get money.

2. at double drops, its a chance for us to make nirvana armor by farming. I mean seriously the box rate is from 0-8 box from 1 boss and 12 mats from last boss. thats way more profitable compare than 2 normal nirvana run. Hei, 1 caster nirvana run can drop like 10 rapture and normal run drop only 4 rapt. drop 4 rapt in normal nirvana is rare lol.

i dont have sin or BM alt to farm for my main. My main is cleric. and i can upgrade my gear cause of caster. the only diferent is that, not many melee class doing normal nirvana run when not double drops. They spam nirvana when double drops. Caster nirvana, we doing it everyday wether double drops or not double drops. thats the only diferent.

b:victory for caster

Einridi - Archosaur

why u all qq? your a mage right....your in dissadvantage in faming yes (you rock on pvp but who cares right? b:angry)....u have the possibility to farm normal nirvana and caster nirvana....

so if u dont get squad for normal nirvana u have the option to do a longer time caster nirvana but with better drops than normal one....so what's the problem?

u didnt had nirvana they got u a special instance just for u? now u qq u dont like it...what's next? u rule in pvp u want to rule in pve also? u have gv fc and now trials and tw...aps what have? tt nirv and somehow single pvp

my opinion ...get over it...if u dont like it go aps ...if u dont like that either go play another game

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

ok,so lets backpedal here a bit.

I see a lot of posts about caster whining about not getting in nirvana now whinning about getting into nirvana.
I see also some posts about how good or bad running caster nirvy is.

From the two points above I'm starting to think people are missing the real issue with caster nirvana and are getting more and more into a flame war.
It's not about caster nirvana being good or bad, there are a lot of posts that are backed up with proof that Caster Nirvana is a good thing that makes good money so that is out of the question. People complain about being limited to three runs/ day and I honestly think not even this is an issue. What I think the real issue is: timed Talismans..
It doesn't matter if 1 to 1 caster nirvana gives better drops (an after they rearended casters for 2 years was about time to give them something better than aps have/had), it is about not being able to save your talismans for 2x, just like aps classes do. Yeah, caster nirvana gives 100% better drops lets say and do it 3 times/day IF you do all BH (again, tricky right there). Normal nirvana: 5 entries/day.

Now here’s the big trick: aps can stack up keys and do 10-15-20- you name it – runs /day. Usually the huge majority saves those keys for 2x when they spam the normal run, so we could consider that an aps can run 10 nirvana/day (just considering for each day of 2x the keys from day of 1x) vs 3 nirv/day by the caster. Sure, the casters also get normal keys, who gives a flying **** about that, those are a waste (4+ man squad where income is wthlol or sell keys for the cost of 2 -3 uncanny). I can tell you right now, 10 normal nirvanas/day bring a **** ton more income than those 3 caster nirvanas. Sure, they will take longer, but the income will be much, much higher. Even with double drops in caster nirvana , doing normal nirvana with a 3 man squad 6 times I’m pretty sure comes on par with 3 caster nirv runs. And aps can go on an on. You’re free the whole day? Spam 20 runs, no one stops you.

I hope you guy see the point I’m trying to make here. It’s not about caster nirvana being hard, short/long timewise or not having good drops. It’s about freedom of making money ingame, a point some people posting around here (having no clue obviously) and PWE/PWI - throwing up a smoke and mirrors show for the dumb audience : look, we gave casters something to get them on par with aps!!! - Did not get it

Devinettie - Heavens Tear

That I agree with.. get rid of the timer on it.. so we that they can be saved up just like Keys.. It solves most of the problems..

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Okay.. but what about the low APS melees? Where's the fairness for them? b:avoid

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Okay.. but what about the low APS melees? Where's the fairness for them? b:avoid

same place where's the fairness for 100+ casters with tt80/90 weapon and gear.
And there's always FC where u don't need much aps to make a decent income. Can't be compared with 3-x or Nirv farming during 2x, but it's still a decent income. ( I sold myself hundreds of FCs going from a 5k-ish HP +4r8 to a 10k -ish HP +10 G13. Can be done. Not in a week, but can be done)

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

hm... i still cant see the point of u whining about it lol. melee class or mage class can do normal nirvana. u can get 3 keys everyday as long ur lvl 100. the only reason why mage class cant do normal nirvana cause of APS!!! many ppl just wanna take sin, BM or Barb to go nirvana cause of their APS. well the only mage class who often able to get squad is veno cause of amplify. They even dont wanna bring cleric. cause they think cleric is useless imo. Only few ppl that i see wanna bring mage class or archer or seeker to go normal nirvana.

So in this situation, mage class is disadvantage. PWI see the situation, since u barely able to see wiz cause of ppl cant farm use wiz for example. then PWI make caster nirvana. i see caster nirvana is like caster affirmative action. so they make caster nirvana, boss immune w phisical attack, melee class cant take quest or getting lead. they make this only for mage class so u can do nirvana even if u cant get squad in normal nirvana. so basically u can do caster nirvana and also normal nirvana. if u really wanna try really hard to get squad or make squad for normal nirvana and spam it do it. or maybe u can do caster where APS useless there. u can do caster everyday and u even able to upgrade ur gear w caster cause its really profit. thats only for mage class.

bout soloing things, hm.. nirvana was meant for 6 ppl squad. thats why u need 6 ppl to open it. not 3 or 4. well, if u greedy enough, u can just pay 3 ppl or use ur alt to solo it to getting more profit. but as i said nirvana was never meant for solo. this is 6 ppl squad mode cave.

and nirvana is not the only things that u can farm imao. my friend made like 30 mills in 4 days just farming card boss and make perfect stone. or my friend just farming herb or DQ. there is also Delta and more. so nirvana is not the only thing for farming.

Thats my 2 cents

Mendolin - Sanctuary

i am surprised no one has brought up the glitch that allows you to keep your talisman.... b:shutup

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

still , you need to have 1 to open and it will time out in 24h. And opener loses the talisman anyway, so ya, even with a squad of 6 you can do like 13 runs at most. Not bad, not bad at all, but you have to do them in a 24h span.

@BungaSakura - what the dungeon/instances were designed for is totally different thing from what are used for.
TT? - solo
FC? - solo (sell heads then solo rest)
Nirvana - 3 man run is the best/fastest unless you're a +12 r9. But then, what's the point.
3-4 man runs are not greedy, just the best retun of investment.

and nirvana is not the only things that u can farm imao. my friend made like 30 mills in 4 days just farming card boss and make perfect stone. or my friend just farming herb or DQ. there is also Delta and more. so nirvana is not the only thing for farming.

there are a lot of things you can farm. But almost none as profitable. Your friend made 30 mil in 4 days. I can make 30 mil in 4.5-5h or nirvana, depends on squad. Or I can make 10 mil/day (40 mil in 4 days) just cleaning up FC to big room. Or just farm 1-3 /2-1/2-2 (these are really easy) - same thing, about 1.5 mil/h I guess.

Again, it's everything about return of investment: how much coins/time spent. There are 3 type of players in MMOs:
1. players that grind and grind and grind and .... u get my point. time is not an issue for them since they have nothing better to do. They enjoy it
2. players that have a limited time available and want to make the biggest possible amount of coins in that time and either go do something else in game or totally log out.
3. merchants - buy/sale robots, nothing more to say, they aren't the focus of this topic.

Mendolin - Sanctuary

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

still , you need to have 1 to open and it will time out in 24h. And opener loses the talisman anyway, so ya, even with a squad of 6 you can do like 13 runs at most. Not bad, not bad at all, but you have to do them in a 24h span.

and after 24 hours you get another one lol xD so its really endless since you can get 3 a day...

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

same place where's the fairness for 100+ casters with tt80/90 weapon and gear.
And there's always FC where u don't need much aps to make a decent income. Can't be compared with 3-x or Nirv farming during 2x, but it's still a decent income. ( I sold myself hundreds of FCs going from a 5k-ish HP +4r8 to a 10k -ish HP +10 G13. Can be done. Not in a week, but can be done)

No it can't, shutup, you have to be 4/5APS to make money, otherwise you'll always be poor and never make cash! It's a fact. I'm tellin' ya!

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

stop smoking weird shyat

Mendolin - Sanctuary wrote: »

and after 24 hours you get another one lol xD so its really endless since you can get 3 a day...

openers loses the talisman, right? so you can open 13 times with a squad of 6 casters. after that you need a new openers for 3 runs, then another fresh new opener for other 3 runs.
Not really endless since you need someone to leech of talismans after the 13th run. That provided everyone did their BH1 and 2 and got both talismans.

doomsdayzombie

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No it can't, shutup, you have to be 4/5APS to make money, otherwise you'll always be poor and never make cash! It's a fact. I'm tellin' ya!

kk so how did i go from starting this game to being 5aps bm? never cash shoped ofc. i farmed merchent and well do alot of **** even in crab gear. just takes timeb:laugh