*NEW* G13 vs G15 vs Hitman vs Rank 8 vs Rank 9 vs Rank 8 Recast!!
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ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
Posts: 458 Arc User
With Rank 8 recasting being all the buzz, and the forums being littered with questions as to how they would stack up to the other "end game" daggers. Ive gone ahead and calced them into my dps review.
Another thing to note, in my last review I inaccurately calced Rank 9 daggers. I calced their attack level at 1.58 because I was told about some "diminishing returns" that arent actually diminishing returns at all. They just meant adding 1% to a bajillion damage isnt much of an improvement compared to a million damage. :O
So yea, sorry but ive caused the entire world to think that the perfect G15 will out DD R9, when in reality it doesnt, not even with gof int and crit.....
Anyways sorry here's the review.
Dps Review
Edit: Oh yea forgot to mention, all calcs are done with the weapons sharded with 2 garnet gems (except 1 socket G13), and theyre all reviewed with the same build, which can be found Here
Another thing to note, in my last review I inaccurately calced Rank 9 daggers. I calced their attack level at 1.58 because I was told about some "diminishing returns" that arent actually diminishing returns at all. They just meant adding 1% to a bajillion damage isnt much of an improvement compared to a million damage. :O
So yea, sorry but ive caused the entire world to think that the perfect G15 will out DD R9, when in reality it doesnt, not even with gof int and crit.....
Anyways sorry here's the review.
Dps Review
Edit: Oh yea forgot to mention, all calcs are done with the weapons sharded with 2 garnet gems (except 1 socket G13), and theyre all reviewed with the same build, which can be found Here
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver on
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Comments
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Care to explain how a g16 item has a shallower damage curve to a g15? You might wanna review your +12 damages.
And why waste like 20 str, 5+ dex, +100def and +5% damage on a crappy warsoul helm? Nirvana is by far a superior helm.0 -
ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »Another thing to note, in my last review I inaccurately calced Rank 9 daggers. I calced their attack level at 1.58 because I was told about some "diminishing returns" that arent actually diminishing returns at all. They just meant adding 1% to a bajillion damage isnt much of an improvement compared to a million damage. :O
b:surrender I wonder if you just put it down so damn messed up or if you really don't understand what you are talking about. In both cases, personally I won't even look at the conclusions of someone who managed to write this down, then try to look intellegent with some figures.
Just to be clear, attack lvls do have diminishing returns. The only problem is that many don't seem to know what this term means. "Diminishing returns" is always used in a marginal reasoning, which is probably where you also went wrong. It means that the next unit will add less then the previous.
With a simple example, it's very clear :
100 damage and you add 1 attack lvl, you gain 101 damage. That is +1% damage from that 1 attack lvl.
100 damage with 100 attack lvls = 200 damage. If you add 1 more attack lvl, you will get 201 damage, meaning only +0.5% damage from the last extra attack lvl.
As you can see, the return of the 1st attack lvl is higher then the return of the 101st attack lvl. (Ofc you can do it for every single added attack lvl, but I just took 1st and 101st cause it's easier to see)0 -
Empu: So the dmg on the r9 is that factoring in the attack level of 30 or just raw damage w/o the attack level?Nothing worthwhile to mention here, enjoy the animated signature~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
This isn't really new information... More like you used math to prove what people were already thinking.
TL;DR version of chart:
Without PanGu: Hitman < G13(1 soc) < R8 < G13(2 soc) < G15(SS, -int) < G15(GoF, -int) < R8 Recast < R9
With PanGu: Hitman < R8 < G13(1 soc) < G13(2 soc) < G15(SS, -int) < G15(GoF, -int) < R8 Recast < R9
That's without Demon spark. The only difference with it factored in is that the more -int daggers become better for the lower end daggers, but the top 3 remain the same. This means R8 Recast, G15(GoF, -int) and R9 are the best endgame daggers.
So, nothing really new =/A sword can cut a man in twain, but words can shake a fortress to the ground.0 -
_Perses_ - Lost City wrote: »Empu: So the dmg on the r9 is that factoring in the attack level of 30 or just raw damage w/o the attack level?
He's factoring in a total attack lvl that involves the +30 from r9. However, from that quote before, he doesn't seem to understand that the impact of thos +30 att lvl depends on the other att lvl of the build.
When I see your question, that paragraphe I quoted and the post just above (by PhantomThief), I wonder how ppl can put so much importance on a meaningless figure and not even know how it actually works.
I'm greatly opposed to all those "dps" calculations because it makes ppl forget common sence and make stupid weapon choices (cf : http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1222301). The dps calculated is an inappropriate average (per second) of an average (dph), which takes into account an average damage, average proc damage and average crit damage to mold it all in 1 final figure with a "there is always 1 better then all others"-philosophy. It's like comparing companies on the "profit" line in their books. As if the way this figure is generated doesn't matter. Also, damage spread is totally factored out. As if 5k + 5k is the same as 2k + 8k, or more topic related, +70 phys att ends up the same as +140 max phys att. On top of that, the "winner" is determined on high hp immobile targets with no interruptions. However, how many bosses actually still last 10min or more to make this kind of approach realistic?
Just that it's a figurized result, doesn't mean it actually has a meaning. This kind of thread makes me think of kindergarden where they debate on which superhero is strongest. The lvl of analysis of most doesn't go further then basic, yet they act like it's advanced rocket science.
Personally, I just get annoyed by that scientificated blabla. To make it of some real sence, you should at least add damage dispersion assorted with the probability of the significant values and a damage/investment indicator. Ofc, it's just a game so why actually make an intellectual research ? You can also just base on common sence like "I want a dph weapon", "I think X looks cool" or "I want stable predictable damage". That would prevent a lot of intellectual masturbation leading to regretted choices.
b:surrender Sorry for rant0 -
hiddenmonkey wrote: »And why waste like 20 str, 5+ dex, +100def and +5% damage on a crappy warsoul helm? Nirvana is by far a superior helm.
Nirvana will offer:
+25 HP
+301 p.atk.
+1% crit
+228 accuracy
+114 evasion
+5 atk.lvl.
-10 p.def.
+105 m.def.
Nirvana
Warsoul0 -
hiddenmonkey wrote: »Care to explain how a g16 item has a shallower damage curve to a g15? You might wanna review your +12 damages.
And why waste like 20 str, 5+ dex, +100def and +5% damage on a crappy warsoul helm? Nirvana is by far a superior helm.
Um...
The difference in str requirements between the two is 13, not 20. The damage is 5% only if you have no other source of attack levels. With Jones' Blessing as default, the difference is bolted to a maximum of 4%, with it being even lower with Rank 9.
Also, since the differences are rather large, I wouldn't think that changing the helm would change any of the outcomes.
So in essence you're just arguing semantics.Nirvana will offer:
+25 HP
+301 p.atk.
+1% crit
+228 accuracy
+114 evasion
+5 atk.lvl.
-10 p.def.
+105 m.def.
The HP is only assuming the same number of sockets and +12 refine. Trust me, it's easier to find a 4 socket Warsoul than a 4 socket Nirvana helm. Also, +12 refine is highly unlikely. The difference in patk, accuracy, evasion, pdef and mdef are subjective and depend completely on the buffs used and the exact details of the character, so those numbers are all downright irrelevant.
What the Nirvana helmet truly offers over Warsoul is more damage.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Wow didnt think I'd have to spell it out for everyone... I never said which is best overall, I said which is best in terms of average dps. Why? Because im tired of uneducated shiitheads raving about 5 aps. In nirvana theres no fuucking reason to take a +5 g13 over a +8 R8, because R8 actually does more damage. Understand? About the r9 issue, last time I did it, I calced it at 1.58 for 58 attack levels. Why? Someone said something about diminishing returns so I assumed that meant 60 attack levels wasnt actually 60 attack levels. I misunderstood and have corrected the error and calced it at 1.6 this time. I never said anything about which weapon was better in general, I just said in terms of average dps here is how they stack up. Make any conclusion you want from this, its purely your own, not mine.
]
That would be stupid. The final total adds in everything. Base attack, aps, crit, atk level, and proc rates._Perses_ - Lost City wrote: »Empu: So the dmg on the r9 is that factoring in the attack level of 30 or just raw damage w/o the attack level?
I added in rank 8 recast, that's whats new.PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »This isn't really new information... More like you used math to prove what people were already thinking.
TL;DR version of chart:
Without PanGu: Hitman < G13(1 soc) < R8 < G13(2 soc) < G15(SS, -int) < G15(GoF, -int) < R8 Recast < R9
With PanGu: Hitman < R8 < G13(1 soc) < G13(2 soc) < G15(SS, -int) < G15(GoF, -int) < R8 Recast < R9
That's without Demon spark. The only difference with it factored in is that the more -int daggers become better for the lower end daggers, but the top 3 remain the same. This means R8 Recast, G15(GoF, -int) and R9 are the best endgame daggers.
So, nothing really new =/Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »He's factoring in a total attack lvl that involves the +30 from r9. However, from that quote before, he doesn't seem to understand that the impact of thos +30 att lvl depends on the other att lvl of the build.
When I see your question, that paragraphe I quoted and the post just above (by PhantomThief), I wonder how ppl can put so much importance on a meaningless figure and not even know how it actually works.
I'm greatly opposed to all those "dps" calculations because it makes ppl forget common sence and make stupid weapon choices (cf : http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1222301). The dps calculated is an inappropriate average (per second) of an average (dph), which takes into account an average damage, average proc damage and average crit damage to mold it all in 1 final figure with a "there is always 1 better then all others"-philosophy. It's like comparing companies on the "profit" line in their books. As if the way this figure is generated doesn't matter. Also, damage spread is totally factored out. As if 5k + 5k is the same as 2k + 8k, or more topic related, +70 phys att ends up the same as +140 max phys att. On top of that, the "winner" is determined on high hp immobile targets with no interruptions. However, how many bosses actually still last 10min or more to make this kind of approach realistic?
Just that it's a figurized result, doesn't mean it actually has a meaning. This kind of thread makes me think of kindergarden where they debate on which superhero is strongest. The lvl of analysis of most doesn't go further then basic, yet they act like it's advanced rocket science.
Personally, I just get annoyed by that scientificated blabla. To make it of some real sence, you should at least add damage dispersion assorted with the probability of the significant values and a damage/investment indicator. Ofc, it's just a game so why actually make an intellectual research ? You can also just base on common sence like "I want a dph weapon", "I think X looks cool" or "I want stable predictable damage". That would prevent a lot of intellectual masturbation leading to regretted choices.
b:surrender Sorry for rant
long story, meaningless words. I have stated this many times, this table is to prove 5 aps doesn't mean more dps, which everyone seems to think. Read before you write please.hiddenmonkey wrote: »Care to explain how a g16 item has a shallower damage curve to a g15? You might wanna review your +12 damages.
And why waste like 20 str, 5+ dex, +100def and +5% damage on a crappy warsoul helm? Nirvana is by far a superior helm.
You need to learn a little before belittling me haha. It's common knowledge rank weapons refine lower than their grade, R8 refined just above that of normal g12 weapons. Even though its g14. And i used wqraoul cuz i felt like it, changing to nirv won't change anything. Everything would change ik relation to eachother.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »Another thing to note, in my last review I inaccurately calced Rank 9 daggers. I calced their attack level at 1.58 because I was told about some "diminishing returns" that arent actually diminishing returns at all. They just meant adding 1% to a bajillion damage isnt much of an improvement compared to a million damage. :O
So yea, sorry but ive caused the entire world to think that the perfect G15 will out DD R9, when in reality it doesnt, not even with gof int and crit.....
Depends on refine. They are pretty much even.
G15 +10: ((16277+20876)/2)*5*1.35*1.32=165,516.615
R9 +10: ((17055+20961)/2)*4*1.35*1.62=166,281.984
G15 +12: ((19379+23978)/2)*5*1.35*1.32=193,155.435
R9 +12: ((19883+23790)/2)*4*1.35*1.62=191,025.7020 -
Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
Same as how Rank 8 and G13 are pretty much even. Im just saying in terms of dps g13 and r8 are even, and g15 and r9 are even. personal choices and priorities aside, in terms of dps they are equals. Which is all I said. Everyone is assuming that by saying that I am saying they are equal overall. Which is stupid, people need to learn to read.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ashura Tyrant you foul mouthed little boy! I must keel yew nao =30 -
Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »b:surrender I wonder if you just put it down so damn messed up or if you really don't understand what you are talking about. In both cases, personally I won't even look at the conclusions of someone who managed to write this down, then try to look intellegent with some figures.
Just to be clear, attack lvls do have diminishing returns. The only problem is that many don't seem to know what this term means. "Diminishing returns" is always used in a marginal reasoning, which is probably where you also went wrong. It means that the next unit will add less then the previous.
With a simple example, it's very clear :
100 damage and you add 1 attack lvl, you gain 101 damage. That is +1% damage from that 1 attack lvl.
100 damage with 100 attack lvls = 200 damage. If you add 1 more attack lvl, you will get 201 damage, meaning only +0.5% damage from the last extra attack lvl.
As you can see, the return of the 1st attack lvl is higher then the return of the 101st attack lvl. (Ofc you can do it for every single added attack lvl, but I just took 1st and 101st cause it's easier to see)
I wouldn't say this is much of a factor at all in his calculations because he did (base dps) x (total attack levels) = total dps. Yes, what you pointed out would be a factor if he multiplied attack levels as compounds, ie (base dps) x (30 weapon attack levels) x (30 blessing attack levels) x (18 shard levels) but I assume (hope) he wasn't stupid enough to do that. For pve 1 attack level = 1% increase of dps but it's the last thing multiplied and all attack levels are added together and multiplied once.
Where attack levels do have a diminishing return in compared to defense levels in pvp. Copied from pwpedia:
if ( attack level > defense level ) then:
damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( attack level - defense level ) / 100 )
if ( attack level < defense level ) then:
damage taken = damage delivered / ( 1 + ( 1.2 * ( defense level - attack level ) / 100 )
@Hiddenmonkey, G16 rank gear will have a shallower damage curve than G15. Rank gear has poor refine rates. This is why rank 8 starts with 40% more dph than G13 unrefined, but G13 catches up as the weapons are refined. Can also look at the hp given from refining (compare TT99 armor to Rank 6/7 armor hp refine rates).Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »I wouldn't say this is much of a factor at all in his calculations because he did (base dps) x (total attack levels) = total dps. Yes, what you pointed out would be a factor if he multiplied attack levels as compounds, ie (base dps) x (30 weapon attack levels) x (30 blessing attack levels) x (18 shard levels) but I assume (hope) he wasn't stupid enough to do that. For pve 1 attack level = 1% increase of dps but it's the last thing multiplied and all attack levels are added together and multiplied once.
The formula...
base dps x aps x crit x atk level x proc (gof/ss etc)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ashura Tyrant you foul mouthed little boy! I must keel yew nao =30 -
Ashivas - Dreamweaver wrote: »The formula...
base dps x aps x crit x atk level x proc (gof/ss etc)
lol, yep. I know. Not new here and have made a couple threads about dps that were reasonably popular.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
The refine almost makes the largest difference. Anyone of the major daggers-rank 8,9 nirv g13,15 and even hitmans do not suck at the +12 level. They all kill stuff at a pretty good level.
The whole point to pve and assasins are to raise your attack to the point that bloodpaint heals more than the damge you take, therefore becoming your own healer, and attacking fast enough to always have spark an chi. This balance of defense versus attack is your prime advantage over any other an too many ignore this in a blind persuit of only attack speed or only attack damage.
Other thing is that the assasin skills are not worthless an tie into the aps routine well, so the slower daggers sorta have a disadvantage there.0 -
ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »Wow didnt think I'd have to spell it out for everyone... I never said which is best overall, I said which is best in terms of average dps. Why? Because im tired of uneducated shiitheads raving about 5 aps. In nirvana theres no fuucking reason to take a +5 g13 over a +8 R8, because R8 actually does more damage. Understand? About the r9 issue, last time I did it, I calced it at 1.58 for 58 attack levels. Why? Someone said something about diminishing returns so I assumed that meant 60 attack levels wasnt actually 60 attack levels. I misunderstood and have corrected the error and calced it at 1.6 this time. I never said anything about which weapon was better in general, I just said in terms of average dps here is how they stack up. Make any conclusion you want from this, its purely your own, not mine.
long story, meaningless words. I have stated this many times, this table is to prove 5 aps doesn't mean more dps, which everyone seems to think. Read before you write please.
Same to you. The reason you misunderstood is simply cause you have no clue lol. You didn't proove anything actually, besides you love to waste your time at figure throwing.Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »I wouldn't say this is much of a factor at all in his calculations because he did (base dps) x (total attack levels) = total dps. Yes, what you pointed out would be a factor if he multiplied attack levels as compounds, ie (base dps) x (30 weapon attack levels) x (30 blessing attack levels) x (18 shard levels) but I assume (hope) he wasn't stupid enough to do that. For pve 1 attack level = 1% increase of dps but it's the last thing multiplied and all attack levels are added together and multiplied once.
Seems you have no idea what marginal reasoning is either. That itself is not a bad thing ofc... unless you start to talk about diminishing returns. Then you have to know what it means or your whole point becomes meaningless.
Seems both of you are not capable of producing pertinent figures and not capable to read figures (like most here). Basicly the tabel prooves nothing at all, just a waste of time. Maybe you should take a look in some real research papers or analysis. If you compare something, you should never ever use a global formula that directly pumps out 1 result.
Reminds me of those guys that wanted to buy a company, thinking they had a good deal because the profit was nice. However, they didn't take a look at how this profit was generated, so didn't see it was all 1-time fiscal advantages and financial result, but a negative activity result. Nor did they see the production investments were obsolete, pumping the end profit even more. Bottom-line of this ? The intermediairy steps to get to a result are more important then the final result.
The problem with this hype is that it breaks common sence. Pumping out not-adequate figures while not being able to give them a meaning leads to ppl unhappy with their choice. A basic SWOT made in 10sec by some random player is way more pertinent then this BS. But I'm probably just wasting my time anyway. To educate some ppl that don't even understand the importance of a spread or sub-results, would be miraculous.0 -
LoraTab - Dreamweaver wrote: »The refine almost makes the largest difference. Anyone of the major daggers-rank 8,9 nirv g13,15 and even hitmans do not suck at the +12 level. They all kill stuff at a pretty good level.
The whole point to pve and assasins are to raise your attack to the point that bloodpaint heals more than the damge you take, therefore becoming your own healer, and attacking fast enough to always have spark an chi. This balance of defense versus attack is your prime advantage over any other an too many ignore this in a blind persuit of only attack speed or only attack damage.
Other thing is that the assasin skills are not worthless an tie into the aps routine well, so the slower daggers sorta have a disadvantage there.
Thank you for giving us just about no useful information in your post regarding this thread.
It's a very biased thing posting straight formula numbers. Takes into no account any game mechanics, boss skills, cost comparisons, or anything. I agree with empu, it's worthless.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
The only reason to ever post only average numbers is to save time.
If you're trying to make a detailed analysis and some kind of a valid point, you need to take into account all the variables.
When it comes to choosing a weapon, there's at least
Damage per hit
Damage range
Crit%
Attack Speed
Chi Gain
Cost
Other mods on the weapon
Good examples of "non-DPS" approaches include:
Choosing Sign of Frost: Chaos over Band from Heaven's Jail as a ring
Choosing Rank 8 dagger over G13 Nirvana for DPH/Crit%
Choosing G13 Nirvana over G15 Nirvana/R9 for Chi gain
Also, a lot of these variables aren't directly comparable. And in some case, a justification might even "not make sense" but still be a proper justification.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »Seems you have no idea what marginal reasoning is either. That itself is not a bad thing ofc... unless you start to talk about diminishing returns. Then you have to know what it means or your whole point becomes meaningless.
Well, I have a business degree and about 100+ college credits in advanced mathematics and economics. Not sure you understand what marginal reasoning is, actually, since this thread is looking at variables that effect efficiency. That is basically marginal reasoning and you are screaming there's no marginal reasoning here. Simply put, marginal reasoning is how changing variables affect other variables and the big picture on a whole, and whether we view those changes as favorable. The OP used the largest and most common variables to project an analysis of performance (the variables being those included in dps calculations). Your right, its not the whole picture but things like aps, weapon refine, base damage... are the biggest pieces to the puzzle and give a reasonable estimate to what we can expect. Nit-picking over the little things everytime someone brings up equations is just ridiculous and redundant because we all know the math isn't 100% accurate because of all the other factors, but ignoring it as a reasonable projection is just ignorant.
Yes. You can identify 1000 other variables to dps, situational changes, gear changes, player ability, player skill and player preferences. All of those would figure into a marginal analysis of each weapon and affect our viewpoint of how effective a weapon is but we can't quantify those so we use math and formulas to quantify what we do know and everytime you dismiss it as frivolous because "the math isn't 100% omg" and identify tiny little variables and try to confuse people with semantics, theoretical mathmatics, or microeconomic terms and complicate things that are very simple.
The numbers in the first post are basic. Take them for that, don't put too much importance on them but don't dismiss them, either. I think Olbaze has the most correct viewpoint in post #18 of all the other posts, so far.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Well, I have a business degree and about 100+ college credits in advanced mathematics and economics. Not sure you understand what marginal reasoning is, actually, since this thread is looking at variables that effect efficiency. That is basically marginal reasoning and you are screaming there's no marginal reasoning here. Simply put, marginal reasoning is how changing variables affect other variables and the big picture on a whole, and whether we view those changes as favorable. The OP used the largest and most common variables to project an analysis of performance (the variables being those included in dps calculations). Your right, its not the whole picture but things like aps, weapon refine, base damage... are the biggest pieces to the puzzle and give a reasonable estimate to what we can expect. Nit-picking over the little things everytime someone brings up equations is just ridiculous and redundant because we all know the math isn't 100% accurate because of all the other factors, but ignoring it as a reasonable projection is just ignorant.
Yes. You can identify 1000 other variables to dps, situational changes, gear changes, player ability, player skill and player preferences. All of those would figure into a marginal analysis of each weapon and affect our viewpoint of how effective a weapon is but we can't quantify those so we use math and formulas to quantify what we do know and everytime you dismiss it as frivolous because "the math isn't 100% omg" and identify tiny little variables and try to confuse people with semantics, theoretical mathmatics, or microeconomic terms and complicate things that are very simple.
The numbers in the first post are basic. Take them for that, don't put too much importance on them but don't dismiss them, either. I think Olbaze has the most correct viewpoint in post #18 of all the other posts, so far.
He's nit picking the fact that in different situations these numbers mean absolutely nothing? I actually call that a better analysis of the numbers then the numbers themselves.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »The only reason to ever post only average numbers is to save time.
The use of averages is not adequate because :
- Bosses do not take a significant time to kill anymore
- GoF/Sarc Assault are binairy procs on 1 hit, they trigger or not, averaging them makes no sence
- Crit is the same
If "saving time" leads to irrelevant numbers, it's better to make abstraction from numbers and just work on common sence, hence why I consider a SWOT way more significant then dps.Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »If you're trying to make a detailed analysis and some kind of a valid point, you need to take into account all the variables.
When it comes to choosing a weapon, there's at least
Damage per hit
Damage range
Crit%r
Attack Speed
Chi Gain
Cost
Other mods on the weapon
Good examples of "non-DPS" approaches include:
Choosing Sign of Frost: Chaos over Band from Heaven's Jail as a ring
Choosing Rank 8 dagger over G13 Nirvana for DPH/Crit%
Choosing G13 Nirvana over G15 Nirvana/R9 for Chi gain
Also, a lot of these variables aren't directly comparable. And in some case, a justification might even "not make sense" but still be a proper justification.
Since you're a mathematicien, it's logic you stand on a positivist paradigm. However, choosing a weapon, or even a build or class, is a personal choice. Which implies a constructivist paradigm, as the positivist counterpart is pretty much incapable of integrating a choice between hitting 5k + 15k or hitting 10k + 10k. It's not that it doesn't make sence. There is just a part of subjectivity which makes that there can't be 1 weapon qualified as the single best for every player.
I think RunningTiger's example is the best illustration of what I mean. Those examples you gave are not irrational and make perfect sense. They are directly comparable, but only for the person that has to make the choice. Besides, that is what the math should be used for imo... make the data comparable to turn it into information (or maybe even knowledge).0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »He's nit picking the fact that in different situations these numbers mean absolutely nothing? I actually call that a better analysis of the numbers then the numbers themselves.
If I triple spark on a boss and he moves 6 inches away so I have to take the .5 seconds to move my character to start attacking then all the numbers change. Doesn't mean they're invalid, just means it was a different situation and so even though each weapon would basically still perform the same should I throw all the numbers out the window? No. Just means I shouldn't believe them or rely on them 100% even though in this situation change they'd all still hold up aboutt he same..
Finding situations like that to try to discredit all math is nit picky. Now, if you're in a situation where the increase in chi gain of G13/G15 allows you to triple spark purify out of a curse effect before you die where R8/R9 wouldn't have, then your G13/G15 numbers hold true and your R8/R9 numbers become absolutely worthless. The math really does go out the window. But finding this situation, although something to consider, is still kind of nit picky.
His numbers are an attempt to show you average or possible dps in normal situations without too many variable and people are going out of thier way to find extrenuating variables. Like I said, this is a marginal analysis of "average or potential" and something to consider while you consider all the other varaibles. No need to scrutinize it that hard but it became a mud-slinging fest.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
@ Saku : If you are in the business sector, you should understand how all figures are relative, especially averages. You say I'm nit-picking ? I'm only saying "dps" doesn't mean anything. Math is a tool, not a solution.
Let me rephrase in simple words :
Any G13+ weapon with +10 or higher refines does a crapload of damage. Instead of staring on some silly number, just use your brain, and not your calculator, to determine what suits you best.
EDIT regarding post above : I actually refuse to even call all those figures "math". For me it's just figures without foundation.0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »If I triple spark on a boss and he moves 6 inches away so I have to take the .5 seconds to move my character to start attacking then all the numbers change. Doesn't mean they're invalid, just means it was a different situation and so even though each weapon would basically still perform the same should I throw all the numbers out the window? No. Just means I shouldn't believe them or rely on them 100% even though in this situation change they'd all still hold up aboutt he same..
Finding situations like that to try to discredit all math is nit picky. Now, if you're in a situation where the increase in chi gain of G13/G15 allows you to triple spark purify out of a curse effect before you die where R8/R9 wouldn't have, then your G13/G15 numbers hold true and your R8/R9 numbers become absolutely worthless. The math really does go out the window. But finding this situation, although something to consider, is still kind of nit picky.
His numbers are an attempt to show you average or possible dps in normal situations without too many variable and people are going out of thier way to find extrenuating variables. Like I said, this is a marginal analysis of "average or potential" and something to consider while you consider all the other varaibles. No need to scrutinize it that hard but it became a mud-slinging fest.
RunningTiger's post shows those "average or potential" numbers are useless without the extenuating variables being factored into the equations. With the lack of those variables being factored in the numbers are worthless.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
You all seem to forget the coolness factor which is much more important the DPS. G15 daggers with -int and GoF are so much cooler than rank 9. People will inspect you and be like, daym I wish I was that guy with the G15 -int GoF daggers.0
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i love my r8 daggers:) and i can share the tome (pan gu) with other alts so i prefer it over g13s by a lot.. i wish i had r9 or g15 but they are so damn expensive and especially at 10m+/recast for g15 i would never get them lol, id rather chsoe the safe way and go with r90
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Well the point me,lora tab,and running tiger-all the same person btw..were trying to get at is that all the different daggers are pretty good in certain circumstance so the best dagger is not always the same dagger. Alot of times I see people use the stupid math numbers to exclude characters from squads based on it, so I really think they are bad in general. It is mostly false anyways as it takes into effect no variables an there are always some in the game.0
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Northern - Dreamweaver wrote: »Well the point me,lora tab,and running tiger-all the same person btw..were trying to get at is that all the different daggers are pretty good in certain circumstance so the best dagger is not always the same dagger. Alot of times I see people use the stupid math numbers to exclude characters from squads based on it, so I really think they are bad in general. It is mostly false anyways as it takes into effect no variables an there are always some in the game.
This, and just quoting cause unfortunately you editted something out :
Math can be misleading
Saku sais it's nit picking to talk about other situations. Actually, he's doing the exact same thing, by basing a decision on 1 hyper selective situation. The point is, you'll never be in the situation refered to by the formulas. Just because it's figures, it doesn't mean it's universal, adequate or even correct.0 -
Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »The use of averages is not adequate because :
- Bosses do not take a significant time to kill anymore
- GoF/Sarc Assault are binairy procs on 1 hit, they trigger or not, averaging them makes no sence
- Crit is the same
If "saving time" leads to irrelevant numbers, it's better to make abstraction from numbers and just work on common sence, hence why I consider a SWOT way more significant then dps.
Well, some people might use averages to save time, but some people really do seem to think that the average in itself is everything. Which, of course, is kinda silly because the average of 5-10k and 0-15k is both 7.5k. And yet pretty much everyone would choose the former option because it's more consistent due to a lesser spread of damage.I think RunningTiger's example is the best illustration of what I mean. Those examples you gave are not irrational and make perfect sense. They are directly comparable, but only for the person that has to make the choice. Besides, that is what the math should be used for imo... make the data comparable to turn it into information (or maybe even knowledge).
Oh, I never said they didn't make sense, they're perfectly valid reasons. As for incomparable factors, they do exist. For example, Chi gain vs Cost, which is one of the things that come into the play when comparing Rank 8 and G13 Nirvana.Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »Let me rephrase in simple words :
Any G13+ weapon with +10 or higher refines does a crapload of damage. Instead of staring on some silly number, just use your brain, and not your calculator, to determine what suits you best.
EDIT regarding post above : I actually refuse to even call all those figures "math". For me it's just figures without foundation.
I do think these comparisons that people post are not much more than idle curiosity. They're not going to change people's opinion on a larger scale, nor are they really meaningful even on the smaller scale. People will still choose whatever the heck they feel is the right choice. And really, that is what makes it the right decision.
As for numbers being math: Numbers without proper meaning are just about meaningless. And I'd say comparing DPS numbers and ranking weapons based on that is exactly that. Who the hell cares if Weapon X does 2% more average DPS than Weapon Y? Or that adding Item A to the comparison makes Weapon Y do more DPS than Weapon X?
And yes, due to the speeds that Nirvanas are going at nowadays, average numbers are even more meaningless. If your bosses are going to take a very small number of hits, it's more likely that your damage is highly inconsistent and far away from the average.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Used but normal r8 and g13(1socket) with same refines and gems. My conculsion is -int daggers with their lower damage range/higher speed suits defensive playstyle, the higher damage range/lower speed daggers makes for a more offensive kind of play. despite the maths, i choose g13 cuz it offers more versatility in chi management and more stable hea
s for pve.0 -
Why is this so difficult for you guys to understand. Let me elaborate why I posted this. It was NOT to prove which was better. Or which you should pick, or this dagger does 1.7% more damage than that one. If was to prove, as I've said 20 times, that g13 does not aignificantly out DD R8 of equal refine in a normal situation. I got tired of 5 aps only nirv squads so i posted the last comparison thread to try and educate people. G13 isn't a billion times better like everyone wants to think. Why did I include R9 G15 and Hitman? Because people were asking how those stack up, then what about recast rank 8, asking me if it would be worth it. These threads have had a lot more influence on people than you think, I get pms almost everytime I shout in WC asking me about my thread, and they ask for my opinion on gear choice, I tell them idk and I only did this to prove R8 can keep up with G13. To call these numbers meaningless is silly. Would you really expect me to go through all the effort of calculating every single variable possible... when a simple figure gives a good enough idea of DD power? It's not perfect but it gets the job done.
Please listen you arrogant kids lol.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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