r9 wiz question

Surged - Harshlands

Sometime I think we all should get a life (that includes me)

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

Just to refresh the armor vs weapon first point:

I got my armor first way back when you could farm medals. So i got all my armor and went from a 5k hp one shot from stealth, to a 6k hp one shot from stealth. average pvp i did fine in my tt99/90 r8 gear mix (+10r8 weap).

In hindsight, i should have gotten the r9 weap before the gear. Would have been much more useful for tw, and the extra survivability i got from the gear was negligible.

imho, unless you can afford at least full +10 and g11 or higher (JoSD) gems, go weapon first.
something like my current gear http://pwcalc.com/ed7d8f1adb07dc5a I still get oen shot from stealth by +12 r9/zerk dagg sins. stupid two spark fish nonsense

armor without shards before weapon is jsut not worth it unless you have just terrible terrible gear.

sorry for the cluttered post, its late >.>

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

Just to refresh the armor vs weapon first point:

armor without shards before weapon is jsut not worth it unless you have just terrible terrible gear.

Well, I don't know that my point was weapon vs armor without shards, etc. If you aren't sharding armor (which would cost a fraction of what the weapon alone would cost), could you really be sharding/refining the weapon? Comparing these two:

Rank 9 weapon unsharded +4 and tt90/99 armor

vs

Rank 9 armor +4 with flawless or immac gems and rank 8 +8/+10

I would say preferences can differ, but I don't think its all that big a stretch to say they are at least somewhat equal in cost, and pretty close to equal in effectiveness (rank 9 weapon have more attack, of course, but rank 9 armor have more pdef, more defense levels, only like 10 or so less attack levels, etc.

Now, if you are mr able-to-easily-survive in tw/pk but have a hard time killing, sure, go weapon first. However, rank 9 weapon without the set bonues to back it up? I dunno, I didn't go that route, but it seems to me that rank 8 with rank 9 armor and frenzy gets you to the same place, and helps you tank rank 9 magic ALOT better, and non-sin, non rank 9s ALOT better.

My point isn't that one is absolutely better than the other. My point is this - when for the same cost as the weapon, you can basically get the full set of armor? It's not an option to be over looked. Think about how you play, how your faction's tws go, what your role is there (cata support? rank 9 armor maybe - defend in base? maybe weapon is the better choice), etc.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

you missed my point. r9 armor costs aroudn the same as the weap
r9 armor needs more money for refines and JoSD are at least 60mil a shard. g11cit/garn are ~20mil each. you need 16 of them for your gear. 4x the refining cost and 14more endgame shards will cost way more hten just getting the weapon and refining it to 10.

i agree that if you only have money to get the weapon or the gear at +4 then get the gear. However you have to remember the effect of just having the weapon and +10ing it. In tw you will really start to **** bms/barbs/seekers/archers and you will really be putting dents in a cata's hp.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

you missed my point.

No, I get your point. It's the old "wiz is a dd so at least do your job" argument. Damage for damage's sake at all costs, etc.

I get your point. I just disagree.

With rank 9 and +12 orbs in the cash shop recently, virtually every ranged class can 1 shot a wizard, even 1 shot a wizard with aoe's. So without decent defenses, against r9 weapons in the opposing faction, and with all that 1 shotting aoe power floating around in TW now, it almost doesn't even matter how you play. It matters just as much how that dumb dumb next to you is playing when he runs barrage around all over his faction mates.

Noone does less damage than a dead wiz, even a dead wiz with rank 9 +10 weapon.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

r9 armor needs more money for refines and JoSD are at least 60mil a shard. g11cit/garn are ~20mil each.

There are lots of people that just put in flawless until they get the coin for whatever their ultimate end game shard is going to be. Although, yes, there are rank 9s walking around with empty sockets - a choice I will never understand . . . b:surrender

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

4x the refining cost and 14more endgame shards will cost way more hten just getting the weapon and refining it to 10.

Again, you compare cost by looking to fully completed end game gear. Well, I assume end game gear won't be fully complete until you have armor AND weapon. So I think that is somewhat a false comparison here.

What I think we are looking for here is whether to spend a finite amount of coin on all the armor pieces, or just the weapon. And I am saying, that for some, +4/+5 with flawless in armor and whatever their current weapon is (rank 8 +8/+10, nirvana recast, or whatever) might be a better choice than just weapon and tt99 rank 8 armor.

Now, if you are walking around with a +6 neon and +6 nirvana armor? Weapon might very well be the right choice.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

i agree that if you only have money to get the weapon or the gear at +4 then get the gear. However you have to remember the effect of just having the weapon and +10ing it. In tw you will really start to **** bms/barbs/seekers/archers and you will really be putting dents in a cata's hp.

I have full rank 9 and still haven't +10 my weapon. +10 is ALOT more expensive than it was just a few weeks ago. I don't mind spending to keep up with the jones', but I am not going to pay double or triple or more what the jones' paid to do so.

At the end of the day, it depends alot on how you play, what your role in tw is, what your "other", non-r9 gear looks like, etc., as I said above. However, in this era of "herp derp, get rank 9 ring and weapon, man" ijs its far more intelligent to look at those factors and not overlook getting armor before weapon.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

Trolol i love how you pick out the parts of a post that you want to read. You still completely missed my overall point.

btw i went armor first since you obviously didn't read my post and i have qutie a few freinds who went weap first with tt90/99/r8 gear +5 and they faired just as well as i did.

i'll try to make this simple so you dont have to read much,

Gear Cost:2medals 14gst x 4pieces = 8medals 56gst. so tahts 160gold for medals and 280gold for gst, which comes to a grand total of 440 gold

Weap Cost:5medals 85gst. 100gold for medals 425gold for gst for a total of 525gold


In real pvp:
r9 gear +5>gets one shot by r9, still has a good chance at dieing to non r9's
r9 gear+10>gets one shot by r9, very good chance to win vs non r9's
r9gear+10 with shards>survives to fight, almost unstopable vs non r9's
tt99/90/r8>gets one shot by r9, still has a good chance at dieing to non r9's
r9 weap+5 w/ tt99/90/r8>can still be one shot, does more damage then a r8 +5 and you can use o'mally blesisng for some added def lvl.
r9weap+10 w/ tt99/90/r8>can still be one shot, but does far more damage to r9's and non r9's.

There is the cost, adn pvp effectivness from gear first or weapon first. In tw, obviously weapon is going to be the most effective

playstyle determines a lot of gear choice and what to buy first. I'm not saying getting gear or weapon 1st is better. Now we have math, and how effective the gear and teh weapon will be

p.s.:this is pretty irrelevent because no one makes wizzies as their main anymore so they will jsut not play it at all til its full r9 full +10 with shards trolololol

have fun picking out the parts of my posts that make you sound right. Peace

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

Trolol i love how you pick out the parts of a post that you want to read. You still completely missed my overall point.

btw i went armor first since you obviously didn't read my post and i have qutie a few freinds who went weap first with tt90/99/r8 gear +5 and they faired just as well as i did.

As for picking your post apart, if you wouldn't say things that are wrong, or attribute to me things I never said, I wouldn't have to.

And, um, I don't know that I was every talking about what you personally did.

And your last statement above proves all that I was saying - armor first can be an equally good option.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

i'll try to make this simple so you dont have to read much,

tried, and failed, ijs

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

Gear Cost:2medals 14gst x 4pieces = 8medals 56gst. so tahts 160gold for medals and 280gold for gst, which comes to a grand total of 440 gold

Weap Cost:5medals 85gst. 100gold for medals 425gold for gst for a total of 525gold

Yes, so while you earlier claimed the unsharded, unrefined armor was worthless, for the same price you can have betwee, 100m or 130m coins left over to further improve your r9 armor for the same cost of the weapon. THATS why what you said earlier was a false comparison. Thank you for spelling that out for everyone.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

In real pvp:

generalization 1
generalization 2
generalization 3
generalization 4
generalization 5
generalization 6
generalization 7

I don't know what this was supposed to prove, actually. As Adolt always says (one of the few things I agree with him on), all pvp is situational. These generalizations are not terribly helpful for someone trying to make up their mind as to which r9 pieces to spend limited coin to get.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

There is the cost, adn pvp effectivness from gear first or weapon first.

Says you. Based on your gear, your experience, your server, your pvp tactics, whether you solo or group pvp, etc.

Again, not terribly instructive for anyone else, just your raw opinion. And your entitled to it. But it doesn't necessarily mean its so for anyone else.

Have you been taking lessons from Adolt? Thats what he does, typically.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

In tw, obviously weapon is going to be the most effective

I wouldn't say its obvious at all. If you are getting 1 shot by rank 9 clerics and venos for gods' sake, let alone archers and sins and arma barbs everytime you step out of base, and your faction needs you to support catas, is that effective in tw?

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

playstyle determines a lot of gear choice and what to buy first. I'm not saying getting gear or weapon 1st is better.

Um, the you agree with my original post on this subject. Not sure what your issue is.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

Now we have math, and how effective the gear and teh weapon will be

Well, we have the difference in cost highlighted, which shows 100-130 or more coins left over to refine/shard rank 9 armor. Yes, we do have that.

As to how effective the gear and the weapon will be? Nope. We just have your conclusions based solely on your opinions based on your experience.

How that is conclusive, or even helpful for someone trying to decide what is right for them? I have no idea b:surrender

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

p.s.:this is pretty irrelevent because no one makes wizzies as their main anymore so they will jsut not play it at all til its full r9 full +10 with shards trolololol

Not entirely true, but there are plenty of those, yes.

Why someone would scrap another main, and dump all that coin into a wizard is beyond me. Anyone see what rank 9 +10/+12 psychics with jades (or even tigers) can do? b:surrender

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

have fun picking out the parts of my posts that make you sound right. Peace

Um, its not fun, its tedious, actually. But quite necessary to help new players make correct decisions for themselves, as opposed to simply trying to clone what the wizards with the loudest keyboards and most condescending attitudes on these forums have done themselves b:bye

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

idk what the TW scene on HL is like atm, but this is how I see it:

If you're fighting factions that have some well refined r8s, and the occasional r9, I would recommend getting the wep. With some decent kiting skills, you can keep yourself out of trouble and still do some considerable damage.

If you're fighting factions with tons of r9s and well refined r8s, armor is the way to go. A dead wizard deals less than no damage, so a +5 r8 wep with well refined/sharded r9 armor would be just fine.

And do you have a cube necklace for your wizard? If not, I'd highly recommend spending money on that before you go crazy on r9. R9 is good, but doesn't give you all the p def you'd need to tank hits from an archer or whatever else hits you.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

good point killanator. i got my r9 armor before i got cube neck simply because we had a group farmign a medal and a half a day.

current tw scene for HL: Bid, show up, walk to crystal. there are a few lower guilds that have good fights with r8 gear/99 stuff and like 2-3 r9s per guild.

EatMyMAGina - Harshlands

yeah i'm working on my cube neck unless my friend is willing to give me his +10 neck

and yeah iunno about you guys but it seems like even though sharding/refining will cost more on armor (Even if getting the armor is cheaper), seems like a better choice to survive rather than deal extra dmg. i mean what's the whole point of having like 999999 dmg but like you get 1 shotted by a level 90?

Rivi_V - Heavens Tear

Can someone tell me how to make the cube neck to stage 2 and then 3? Would I have to do cube for that? I bought the first stage.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

EatMyMAGina - Harshlands wrote: »

yeah i'm working on my cube neck unless my friend is willing to give me his +10 neck

and yeah iunno about you guys but it seems like even though sharding/refining will cost more on armor (Even if getting the armor is cheaper), seems like a better choice to survive rather than deal extra dmg. i mean what's the whole point of having like 999999 dmg but like you get 1 shotted by a level 90?

Well I mean let's not exaggerate and say lvl 90s could own you. If you got +5 r8 armor with some citrines in it, you'd have pretty good survivability against other r8 similarly refined players.

I'm just saying that if you find yourself fighting r8 +10 or r9 players a lot, then armor is the way to go. If your usual opponent is r8 +5-8 or less, then r9 armor isn't that important.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

just to troll BM a little more.

New players ask questions to older players. The older players gives them reponses based off of their opiniones. Which is based off of their pvp experiences, their playstyle. seewhatididthar

So yeah, most of my post is pretty useful to someone asking about gear. the part that isn't useful to them is jsut to troll you BM.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Rivi_V - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Can someone tell me how to make the cube neck to stage 2 and then 3? Would I have to do cube for that? I bought the first stage.

I think making a stage 2 neck requires 3 stages 1s, and a stage 3 requires 3 stages 2s. So a stage 3 is like $900, if you can get each necklace for 100m each, which would be a pretty good price (for my server anyways)

Rivi_V - Heavens Tear

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

I think making a stage 2 neck requires 3 stages 1s, and a stage 3 requires 3 stages 2s. So a stage 3 is like $900, if you can get each necklace for 100m each, which would be a pretty good price (for my server anyways)

b:sad b:surrender You say what? Me dont understand.. >.< isnt it something like Heart of the Jungle belts? Where to upgrade it to stage 2, you need the stones and a stage one of that belt.?

Ok, from what you said, do you mean to make stage 2, you will need 3 stage1's? and Stage 3 requires 3 stage2's?

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

yeah thats what it takes to make the g15 and g16 neck. It isn't $900 though. you can actually make cube necks pretty quick with about 60mil and 30 advanced cogs from cube. if you have a good sin and can solo 3-x and lunar you can make a cube neck for as low as 25mil and 30 advanced cogs

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

If not, I'd highly recommend spending money on that before you go crazy on r9. R9 is good, but doesn't give you all the p def you'd need to tank hits from an archer or whatever else hits you.

The difference in pdef between +5 cube neck (+546 pdef) and +5 Sirenith Necklace: Order (+556 pdef).

Now, the +pdef adds from r9 armor:

Robe: 233+300 pdef
Belt: +700 pdef

Actually the sirenth neck is better in terms of pdef, just not in terms of hp and defense levels, etc., but do I really need to show that rank 9 armor + sirenith neck has more defense levels and hp than cube neck?

Cube neck is great, don't get me wrong. And ultimately, you will want it. But to suggest you can't function just as well in rank 9 armor until you get it? b:surrender

PS: paying 10m coins per hit over 4 that DaKillanator can "tank" from a Rank 8 +10 archer that doesn't have his head up his ****.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you got +5 r8 armor with some citrines in it, you'd have pretty good survivability against other r8 similarly refined players.

Likewise, there is virtually no difference in survivability between r8 armor and tt90. TT90 pants are widely regarded as superior to r8 pants, in fact. People wear the r8 top for channeling, not for survivability. If your going for rank 9, and have decent tt90 gear, I wouldn't even get the r8 armor, let alone shard and refine it.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

just to troll BM a little more.

New players ask questions to older players. The older players gives them reponses based off of their opiniones. Which is based off of their pvp experiences, their playstyle. seewhatididthar

So yeah, most of my post is pretty useful to someone asking about gear. the part that isn't useful to them is jsut to troll you BM.

If this is trolling, you need practice, ijs.

And I see what you did. Its the same thing you did before:

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

There is the pvp effectivness from gear first or weapon first. In tw, obviously weapon is going to be the most effective

You claimed to have declared its "effectiveness". But pvp is situational. What is effective in one situation, isn't in another. What's effective for one player, isn't for another. What's effective for a wizard in one faction, will not be effective for a wizard in another faction.

You use your conslusions stated above in an attempt to provide something "useful to them" [new players asking questions], but in doing so, you don't explain anything to them. You merely conclude FOR them. Now, for things like "which pants have more survivability, TT90 or Rank 8?", those types of questions allow a more absolute absolute answer (at least until we see what this rank 8 recasting is all about).

However, "which is more effective in TW: rank 9 weapon or rank 9 armor", that simply can't be answered separate and apart from any number of player specific factors, as you attempted to do when you say above "in tw, obviously weapon is going to be the most effective".

It's not obvious at all. In fact, an argument can be made that its 100% wrong.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

blood, ppl ask for our advice based on our experiences. if your idea's are so much more specific and so much more effective then mine, then plz share them. all i've seen you do thus far is pick at my posts and at dakillanator's posts.

and obviously im trollin you pretty good cause you keep right on going about stuff not even regarding this post

insert BM's negative comments↓↓↓↓↓here

try posting something that may be of actual use this time

EatMyMAGina - Harshlands

guys just duke it out in a real battle! then post on here b:laugh

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

+5 Sirenith Necklace: Order (+556 pdef).

I know you'll find it delicious, but tbh I have no idea what that necklace is. Don't know anyone that has it, what you have to do for it, or how much it costs. So I'm not going to argue about whether it's a good substitute for a cube neck since you obviously know more about it.

But I wouldn't compare +5 necks to eachother when we're discussing r9. +10 would be a better comparison (if there's much of a difference at those refines?).

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

PS: paying 10m coins per hit over 4 that DaKillanator can "tank" from a Rank 8 +10 archer that doesn't have his head up his ****.

With expel? 11seconds of immunity... 5aps archer... Start saving up now b:cute

But seriously why would a wizard need to tank 4+ hits? Archers or otherwise, we have kiting and our genies to help dull and avoid the attacks of the opponents.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

Likewise, there is virtually no difference in survivability between r8 armor and tt90. TT90 pants are widely regarded as superior to r8 pants, in fact. People wear the r8 top for channeling, not for survivability. If your going for rank 9, and have decent tt90 gear, I wouldn't even get the r8 armor, let alone shard and refine it.

Like you said, the r8 top has -chan, so I'd get that. And tt90 pants definitely have an argument for being better considering they have phys def increases.

But r8 armor is also cheap, it costs 2m for the top and bottom. If you need money then selling your tt90 and sharding flawless on your r8 will free up some coin and, as you said, hardly change your survivability.

xconfidex

http://www.pwdatabase.com/items/16040

it's the gold frost necklace, i'd personally stick with the 87 necklace for the hp.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

I know you'll find it delicious, but tbh I have no idea what that necklace is. Don't know anyone that has it, what you have to do for it, or how much it costs. So I'm not going to argue about whether it's a good substitute for a cube neck since you obviously know more about it.

But I wouldn't compare +5 necks to eachother when we're discussing r9. +10 would be a better comparison (if there's much of a difference at those refines?).



With expel? 11seconds of immunity... 5aps archer... Start saving up now b:cute

But seriously why would a wizard need to tank 4+ hits? Archers or otherwise, we have kiting and our genies to help dull and avoid the attacks of the opponents.

not needing to burn geni energy on each stun = more ability to focus on offense with geni, apo, and chi.


Like you said, the r8 top has -chan, so I'd get that. And tt90 pants definitely have an argument for being better considering they have phys def increases.

But r8 armor is also cheap, it costs 2m for the top and bottom. If you need money then selling your tt90 and sharding flawless on your r8 will free up some coin and, as you said, hardly change your survivability.

arcane armor refines for bloody **** and low grade shards are about as usefull as bricks in your armor. Why not sell all your gear and use cheap easily resellable 1* npc armor till rank 9! Because tt 90 is cheap and has high resale value while rank 8 is stuck to you

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

it cost 2m for the top and bottom. That's cheaper than the boots for tt90 on my server, so r8 isn't much of an investment.

And for a bm, tanking hits and using your genie for offensive purposes is fine. But for wizards, the genie is used predominantly for defense.
I mean there's definitely skills like EP, spark, and frenzy that we can use. But most wizards nowadays keep around wind shield, fortify, badge, expel, etc because we're trying to cover up the weaknesses of our class, which would be a lack of anti-stuns and low defenses/hp.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

it cost 2m for the top and bottom. That's cheaper than the boots for tt90 on my server, so r8 isn't much of an investment.

And for a bm, tanking hits and using your genie for offensive purposes is fine. But for wizards, the genie is used predominantly for defense.
No sh*t thats why being able to use it for offense is an advantage, and no aside from OI i dont know of a single competent bm that uses offensive geni skills, as a mele its all about "omg let me live to get close stun and play their antistuns are on CD"

I mean there's definitely skills like EP, spark, and frenzy that we can use. But most wizards nowadays keep around wind shield, fortify, badge, expel, etc because we're trying to cover up the weaknesses of our class, which would be a lack of anti-stuns and low defenses/hp.

No really, I never would have guessed. And how much easier would life be if you could live through an archers stun w/o geni and then just burn them with spark+sutra? Its not the norm but it is useful why not max out your chances of it happening?

This is the box [] this is me outside of the box, this is your moms box () this is me inside of the box (your conception)

Insulting why yes I am, condescending, ooooh why yes I am. Then again how else do I reply to somone who cant understand a basic concept like "you live w/o geni here, geni kill dem".

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

umm BMs point (I think) was that a +10 archer will tear right through an equally geared wizard...

My point is that I have a genie for that reason...

Your point is that I need to outgear archers so I can concentrate on using my genie for spark + sutra?

Solid argument bro.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

is it even possible for a mage to outgear an archer to teh point you dont need a genie?

Joshcja - Sanctuary

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

umm BMs point (I think) was that a +10 archer will tear right through an equally geared wizard...

My point is that I have a genie for that reason...

Your point is that I need to outgear archers so I can concentrate on using my genie for spark + sutra?

Solid argument bro.

my point was being able to live through 1 stun is a huge advantage

never said anything about tanking em

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

I know you'll find it delicious, but tbh I have no idea what that necklace is. Don't know anyone that has it, what you have to do for it, or how much it costs. So I'm not going to argue about whether it's a good substitute for a cube neck since you obviously know more about it.

But I wouldn't compare +5 necks to eachother when we're discussing r9. +10 would be a better comparison (if there's much of a difference at those refines?).

Delicious? Meh. Noobs taste salty to me.

Look it up. They drop every day. The cost next to nothing on most servers. 3m? maybe 4m

And as for +10, if "we're discussing r9" with unlimited funds, yes, +10 is a better comparison, and yes the G14 would refine better than g12. But then, if we are discussing r9 with unlimited funds, why are we talking about armor or weapon first.

Honestly, follow the conversation, and stop trying to argue a point outside of its context.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

With expel? 11seconds of immunity... 5aps archer... Start saving up now b:cute

Um, scroll up: you said cube neck would give you all the pdef you need to tank archers - you think you are tanking with your pdef by using expel? If you use expel to tank archers, you sure don't need a cube neck.

And ps: archers can still hit you through expel - dey got da magic too, yo

And expel vs archers? I guess. Can't say I really see wizards use it that often though. You can't move with expel (certain apoth excluded). Sitting still with an archer in range just mashing buttons until expel wears off is not a great tactic imo.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

But seriously why would a wizard need to tank 4+ hits? Archers or otherwise, we have kiting and our genies to help dull and avoid the attacks of the opponents.

Seriously, you are the one that brought up taking archers, not me.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Like you said, the r8 top has -chan, so I'd get that. And tt90 pants definitely have an argument for being better considering they have phys def increases.

But r8 armor is also cheap, it costs 2m for the top and bottom. If you need money then selling your tt90 and sharding flawless on your r8 will free up some coin and, as you said, hardly change your survivability.

I think your agreeing with me, but its hard to tell. You win here. I am speachless.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

is it even possible for a mage to outgear an archer to teh point you dont need a genie?

a rank 8 +10 archer? only with 18-24 jades I would think. Otherwise no.