WTH nobody is stupid enough to pay 50 usd for a +10 orb
Ceiba - Sanctuary
Posts: 257 Arc User
Thats more than twice of their previous price of 20 gold, nobody is going to charge a single usd on this game if pwi just decides to scam the playerbase with "sales" like these.
It is too late to try to be conservative about the price of items in the boutique, once you have put one item at certain value, it will have to remain at that price, because nobody will want to charge more for the same item, thats why people dont buy dragon orbs unless they are in sale, same for packs etc.
If you used to buy a hamburger combo for 8 bucks, then some day you enter the shop and that 8 bucks combo is now at 20, would you still buy it? b:chuckle
If PWI keeps this going, they are going out of business for sure. Good luck getting any revenue from this sale, you are gonna need it b:bye
It is too late to try to be conservative about the price of items in the boutique, once you have put one item at certain value, it will have to remain at that price, because nobody will want to charge more for the same item, thats why people dont buy dragon orbs unless they are in sale, same for packs etc.
If you used to buy a hamburger combo for 8 bucks, then some day you enter the shop and that 8 bucks combo is now at 20, would you still buy it? b:chuckle
If PWI keeps this going, they are going out of business for sure. Good luck getting any revenue from this sale, you are gonna need it b:bye
Post edited by Ceiba - Sanctuary on
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Comments
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Key word is "sale", poster who couldn't use an already existing topic. It could easily be a mistake on their part (lord knows they're good at that), however, it doesn't mean they have to put the same thing at a sale price of less value than before. This doesn't mean at all that PWI is going out of business just because they didn't put something at such a high discount off it's regular value. Hyperbole much?0
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Scam the player base? They scammed us by ever putting Dragon Orb Oceans on sale in the first place. You should just be happy that you never had to pay 1k+ USD for 1 stars to make a 10 star orb in the first place. /thread.Push me,
And then just touch me.
Tilll I get my,
Satisfaction.0 -
I agree. Strange marketing tactic. Probably they should take some school(course) how to do business.Ceiba - Sanctuary wrote: »Thats more than twice of their previous price of 20 gold, nobody is going to charge a single usd on this game if pwi just decides to scam the playerbase with "sales" like these.
It is too late to try to be conservative about the price of items in the boutique, once you have put one item at certain value, it will have to remain at that price, because nobody will want to charge more for the same item, thats why people dont buy dragon orbs unless they are in sale, same for packs etc.
If you used to buy a hamburger combo for 8 bucks, then some day you enter the shop and that 8 bucks combo is now at 20, would you still buy it? b:chuckle
If PWI keeps this going, they are going out of business for sure. Good luck getting any revenue from this sale, you are gonna need it b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »I agree. Strange marketing tactic. Probably they should take some school(course) how to do business.
Maybe they realized that short-term gain is not going to sustain long term business. Honestly it's about time. If anything they shouldn't put this **** on sale anymore at all tbh.Push me,
And then just touch me.
Tilll I get my,
Satisfaction.0 -
No, actually it's you. This is coming from a business major.Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »I agree. Strange marketing tactic. Probably they should take some school(course) how to do business.
Store has a price, say, on an average box of cereal for $5 CAD. They have a sale on it for $2.50 each. Sale ends. Does that mean when the next sale arrives they must place it at $2.50 or less? No. It doesn't. They can put the sale at $3.00, they can put it at $4.00. It is still, nonetheless, a discount.
It is wholly dependent on the customer who actually buys them if the sale value is worth it or not. The original price for ocean orbs in the boutique is 75 gold.
It's pretty hilarious how you suggest someone else take courses in something you have no clue in. Let those of us who are educated in business and finance tell others what you just did.0 -
Omg. You cannot compare pixels to real world man. I will be simple and fast. First in real life you have truth but not on pixels. In real life you must buy some commodities for your own survival, like groceries, or gas to get to work, etc. You need these things less or more, regardless of price.JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »No, actually it's you. This is coming from a business major.
Store has a price, say, on an average box of cereal for $5 CAD. They have a sale on it for $2.50 each. Sale ends. Does that mean when the next sale arrives they must place it at $2.50 or less? No. It doesn't. They can put the sale at $3.00, they can put it at $4.00. It is still, nonetheless, a discount.
It is wholly dependent on the customer who actually buys them if the sale value is worth it or not. The original price for ocean orbs in the boutique is 75 gold.
It's pretty hilarious how you suggest someone else take courses in something you have no clue in. Let those of us who are educated in business and finance tell others what you just did.
But same rules cannot apply to game pixels(you don't need it), especially when every1 know, that will go down again soon as usually. So result is, nobody will buy these orbs and will wait just on "normal" price sell as it was in the past. I can bet a wine for that. So the company will earn much less with this "sale".[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »No, actually it's you. This is coming from a business major.
Store has a price, say, on an average box of cereal for $5 CAD. They have a sale on it for $2.50 each. Sale ends. Does that mean when the next sale arrives they must place it at $2.50 or less? No. It doesn't. They can put the sale at $3.00, they can put it at $4.00. It is still, nonetheless, a discount.
It is wholly dependent on the customer who actually buys them if the sale value is worth it or not. The original price for ocean orbs in the boutique is 75 gold.
It's pretty hilarious how you suggest someone else take courses in something you have no clue in. Let those of us who are educated in business and finance tell others what you just did.
Horrible comparison, not to mention for a, "business major" it's not soley up to a customer on if it's worth it irl. pwe does not use more resources to sell those d orbs, irl you can't make something out of nothing. There is no middle man, they do not buy supplies to make more d orbs.
Pretty ridiculous how **** business majors are. Come back when you have an actual comparison or maybe, just not talk at all lol0 -
I like how my posts are spot on and everyone is ignoring them b:cutePush me,
And then just touch me.
Tilll I get my,
Satisfaction.0 -
tatakairyu wrote: »Horrible comparison, not to mention for a, "business major" it's not soley up to a customer on if it's worth it irl. pwe does not use more resources to sell those d orbs, irl you can't make something out of nothing. There is no middle man, they do not buy supplies to make more d orbs.
Pretty ridiculous how **** business majors are. Come back when you have an actual comparison or maybe, just not talk at all lol
This is VERY good point.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I apologize, when you said someone else should "take some school(course) how to do business", surely you meant a PWI school course in business, amirite? Where in Archosaur can I find the PWI school of business? Oh right, doesn't exist.Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »Omg. You cannot compare pixels to real world man. I will be simple and fast. First in real life you have truth but not on pixels. In real life you must buy some commodities for your own survival, like groceries, or gas to get to work, etc. You need these things less or more, regardless of price.
But same rules cannot apply to game pixels, especially when every1 know, that will go down again soon as usually. So result is, nobody will buy these orb and will wait just on "normal" price sell as it was in the past. I can bet a wine for that. So the company will earn much less with this "sale".
Or last I checked, the real world transactions involved in buying digital products (i.e. zen) mirrors the real world transactions buying tangible products (i.e. cereal) -- it's all the same to a business' financial statements.
So why don't you try another tactic and try addressing the fact that 75 gold is the original price, anything below 75 gold is a "sale"/"discount", and no business makes a sale price for less and less each time than before, or the exact same price every time.. they would go out of business if they went by your logic. Thankfully, I'm aware that you know little about business and can call you out on it. I also am aware that your ego won't let you concede that you're ****ing clueless.0 -
Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »I like how my posts are spot on and everyone is ignoring them b:cute
Oh no, that is a good point but they should have done it a long time ago lol. Once you sell something in a game for that cheap and decide not to ever sell it again for the same price (or hell even cheaper) people will get mad. It also drives away new players (not that we have many but still). Cause if it was me, why would I want to start a game when the people who already were playing for a long time got to buy something for less than half the cost that you have to pay now real money wise.
It further widens gaps which is a bad thing.0 -
tatakairyu wrote: »Oh no, that is a good point but they should have done it a long time ago lol. Once you sell something in a game for that cheap and decide not to ever sell it again for the same price (or hell even cheaper) people will get mad. It also drives away new players (not that we have many but still). Cause if it was me, why would I want to start a game when the people who already were playing for a long time got to buy something for less than half the cost that you have to pay now real money wise.
It further widens gaps which is a bad thing.
Or let's look at it like this. How about players who spent lots at first and now have to watch all these new players get everything handed to them on a cheapened silver platter? How about those players that had +12 weapons when i started playing in May 09. They paid 2.4k USD for that now I got a +12 orb for 50 gold.Push me,
And then just touch me.
Tilll I get my,
Satisfaction.0 -
Yes, it's solely up to the customer if it's worth it.tatakairyu wrote: »Horrible comparison, not to mention for a, "business major" it's not soley up to a customer on if it's worth it irl. pwe does not use more resources to sell those d orbs, irl you can't make something out of nothing. There is no middle man, they do not buy supplies to make more d orbs.
Pretty ridiculous how **** business majors are. Come back when you have an actual comparison or maybe, just not talk at all lol
And guess what, customers have more than one option to figure out whether or not it's worth it not only by the boutique price but by the catshop price. The supply and demand is obvious within the game. Last few days there was no d.orb sale, yet d.orbs weren't selling at the price in gold, they were selling on HT at 90-95k each, which is still a mere fraction of the real cost in gold. As the supply diminished, with the high demand of d.orbs, they would eventually rise in price. The very same occurrence happens with ocean orbs. They're selling at 45m on HT. 1 gold on HT is 1.3m. 50 gold on HT therefore = 65m, but they're selling for 20m less than that in the game. It would be wise at the moment, if one chooses to buy an ocean orb, to buy one from a catshop for the time being. This is the choice consumers have, the one you pretend doesn't exist.
PWE does use resources for orbs. Every single resource they use to keep the servers up, to run the website, those are resources. You just blatantly ignore them for your own naive-based agenda. Just because they are digital products doesn't mean they cannot directly be compared to tangible products when money disappears from wallets/bank accounts and appears in another's hands all the same.
Also, I'm still waiting for both yours and Mumintroll's ambiguous explanation as to why, when PW has a sale on ocean orbs, they must always be at the last sale price or lesser value, and how the **** that makes any sense business-wise. Unfortunately it looks like the **** one is the one calling others ****, conveniently.0 -
Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »Or let's look at it like this. How about players who spent lots at first and now have to watch all these new players get everything handed to them on a cheapened silver platter? How about those players that had +12 weapons when i started playing in May 09. They paid 2.4k USD for that now I got a +12 orb for 50 gold.
It sure gets people mad, I spent months and hours and hours of grinding with eso's back in the day when people get to 100+ less than a week now. But it doesn't stop people from playing because they already have said level/item but they had to work for it, nothing they can really do about it.
On the other hand if you KNOW that people got things easier and that it means you'll only have a harder time why do it? You're not losing anything like the people who've already done it. No new blood in a game means it will die sooner than later0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »Yes, it's solely up to the customer if it's worth it.
And guess what, customers have more than one option to figure out whether or not it's worth it not only by the boutique price but by the catshop price. The supply and demand is obvious within the game. Last few days there was no d.orb sale, yet d.orbs weren't selling at the price in gold, they were selling on HT at 90-95k each, which is still a mere fraction of the real cost in gold. As the supply diminished, with the high demand of d.orbs, they would eventually rise in price. The very same occurrence happens with ocean orbs. They're selling at 45m on HT. 1 gold on HT is 1.3m. 50 gold on HT therefore = 65m, but they're selling for 20m less than that in the game. It would be wise at the moment, if one chooses to buy an ocean orb, to buy one from a catshop for the time being. This is the choice consumers have, the one you pretend doesn't exist.
PWE does use resources for orbs. Every single resource they use to keep the servers up, to run the website, those are resources. You just blatantly ignore them for your own naive-based agenda. Just because they are digital products doesn't mean they cannot directly be compared to tangible products when money disappears from wallets/bank accounts and appears in another's hands all the same.
Also, I'm still waiting for both yours and Mumintroll's ambiguous explanation as to why, when PW has a sale on ocean orbs, they must always be at the last sale price or lesser value, and how the **** that makes any sense business-wise. Unfortunately it looks like the **** one is the one calling others ****, conveniently.
This guy is hilarious. The amount of resources it takes to sell 1 d orb and the profit they make is no contest, it hardly cuts into profits, it's so miniscule you're funny for bringing it up.
No one ever said they must always put the orbs at the same price, it does cut down on profits when they do this though.
Talk about someone who brings up the most **** things lol, not to mention how he likes to put words into peoples mouths so he can try to prove himself right haha.0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »
Also, I'm still waiting for both yours and Mumintroll's ambiguous explanation as to why, when PW has a sale on ocean orbs, they must always be at the last sale price or lesser value, and how the **** that makes any sense business-wise. Unfortunately it looks like the **** one is the one calling others ****, conveniently.
No they don't have be lesser value, BUT then you cannot expect some1 will buy it and profit of company will go rapidly down. As I said it's not real life. Sure they can set price of orbs on 75$ why not that's their decision. But very few people will buy it at this price. If they set price on 20$ huge amount of players will buy it and profit of company will be much higher.
BTW. Going to work. see ya tomorrow.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
In the year 2000, Pope John Paul II was named an Honorary Harlem Globetrotter.0
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Actually it's you harping on the resources it takes to make a d.orb. We're talking about sales and how no business (it was Mumintroll who told others to take a business course, stupid) will keep every sale the same price or of lesser value -- and since it involves real life transactions it's an applicable comparison which neither of you can debate since you conveniently ignore it. Obviously you've missed the point, because you're too focused on one of the three English words you know, a self-descriptive term really, "****".tatakairyu wrote: »This guy is hilarious. The amount of resources it takes to sell 1 d orb and the profit they make is no contest, it hardly cuts into profits, it's so miniscule you're funny for bringing it up.
No one ever said they must always put the orbs at the same price, it does cut down on profits when they do this though.
Talk about someone who brings up the most **** things lol, not to mention how he likes to put words into peoples mouths so he can try to prove himself right haha.
If they set price to 1 gold a "huge amount" will surely buy it as well. Which brings us to why is it they set a price? Herpy derp.Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »No they don't have be lesser value, BUT then you cannot expect some1 will buy it and profit of company will go rapidly down. As I said it's not real life. Sure they can set price of orbs on 75$ why not that's their decision. But very few people will buy it at this price. If they set price on 20$ huge amount of players will buy it and profit of company will be much higher.
BTW. Going to work. see ya tomorrow.
People bought ocean orbs at 75 gold and trust me, they would buy it at 75 again, regardless of complaints. Money talks, bull**** walks. When a business sets a price of a good they're selling it isn't uncommon for certain people (in your case, non-customer) to be upset about it, but determine it's value and necessity. Given the usefulness of ocean orbs, without a doubt, they'd sell highly regardless.
For posters who want actual, intelligent discussion, I'm thinking the 50 gold could be a price floor which would require the currently existing ocean orbs people are still profiting from last sale on in game to dry up. It would be in line with the link SashaGray gave about a week ago with PW saying they are going to cool down on sales for the current quarter.0 -
Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »No they don't have be lesser value, BUT then you cannot expect some1 will buy it and profit of company will go rapidly down. As I said it's not real life. Sure they can set price of orbs on 75$ why not that's their decision. But very few people will buy it at this price. If they set price on 20$ huge amount of players will buy it and profit of company will be much higher.
BTW. Going to work. see ya tomorrow.
Read this.Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »Maybe they realized that short-term gain is not going to sustain long term business. Honestly it's about time. If anything they shouldn't put this **** on sale anymore at all tbh.
Nothing is free. Nothing.. not even pixels b:bye0 -
Ceiba - Sanctuary wrote: »Thats more than twice of their previous price of 20 gold, nobody is going to charge a single usd on this game if pwi just decides to scam the playerbase with "sales" like these.
It is too late to try to be conservative about the price of items in the boutique, once you have put one item at certain value, it will have to remain at that price, because nobody will want to charge more for the same item, thats why people dont buy dragon orbs unless they are in sale, same for packs etc.
If you used to buy a hamburger combo for 8 bucks, then some day you enter the shop and that 8 bucks combo is now at 20, would you still buy it? b:chuckle
If PWI keeps this going, they are going out of business for sure. Good luck getting any revenue from this sale, you are gonna need it b:bye
lol u just now realize this? 2k+ usd for rank 9 and another 2k+ usd to +12 that rank 9 wasnt enought to realize this company is trying to milk u for every single penny u have?0 -
Read this.
Nothing is free. Nothing.. not even pixels b:bye
normal air for breathing without risk of dying early, 3$ / bottle b:victory[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
Also, I'm still waiting for both yours and Mumintroll's ambiguous explanation as to why, when PW has a sale on ocean orbs, they must always be at the last sale price or lesser value, and how the **** that makes any sense business-wise. Unfortunately it looks like the **** one is the one calling others ****, conveniently.
you're a business major? you need to find whoever taught u and get ur money back for that course and then relearn it somewhere else.
business wise they will actually make less sales. by them raising the price to 50 the only people who will buy that trash are the desprate as **** cash shoppers. if you have ANY sense of reason then you will wait till the sale comes where they are at there cheapest. the same goes for packs. no one (in there right natural and common sensable frame of mind) would buy backs for 1 gold each. they will wait till the packs are at there cheapests and buy them for at 15 gold for x 50 packs instead of 50 gold for 50 packs.
those types of sales make the most money because ppl wait to buy them at there absolute cheapest. if they are at price that is 2x-4x higher then that then ppl simply wont buy it and PW will make LESS money off of that sale.
another thing you have to realize to why your comparison was bad is that this is a virtual game. the items they make are pretty much unlimited. they can make a walking talking ***** that magically makes all of ur equips +12 once its worn and never run out of supply because its virtual.
so when a company makes a "sale" like this then that means that all they are trying to do is milk money off of u when they can. the supply of those orbs are nearly unlimited unlike a box of cereal. why do you think they do so many pack sales nearly every month? its because they make a **** ton of money off of those sales compared to the "normal" price.0 -
Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »Or let's look at it like this. How about players who spent lots at first and now have to watch all these new players get everything handed to them on a cheapened silver platter? How about those players that had +12 weapons when i started playing in May 09. They paid 2.4k USD for that now I got a +12 orb for 50 gold.
They deserve that for being so stupid to spend that much money on a videogame in the first place I'd say lol
Now if they farmed it, then thats another story0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »Actually it's you harping on the resources it takes to make a d.orb. We're talking about sales and how no business (it was Mumintroll who told others to take a business course, stupid) will keep every sale the same price or of lesser value -- and since it involves real life transactions it's an applicable comparison which neither of you can debate since you conveniently ignore it. Obviously you've missed the point, because you're too focused on one of the three English words you know, a self-descriptive term really, "****".
Oh no, name calling, it's what refutes words and proves people right. That's what I thought lol, anyone who fails to argue their point goes straight to it.
Though, it is pretty amusing considering you hear what you want to hear so you can tell yourself you were right and have a nice sleep tonight lol.0 -
Jay_Dubbz - Lost City wrote: »They deserve that for being so stupid to spend that much money on a videogame in the first place I'd say lol
Now if they farmed it, then thats another story
That's not the point. The point is they spent something sure they may have spent money and others spent time doesn't matter what you spent. Was just playing devil's advocate to the other person's post.Push me,
And then just touch me.
Tilll I get my,
Satisfaction.0 -
Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »Or let's look at it like this. How about players who spent lots at first and now have to watch all these new players get everything handed to them on a cheapened silver platter? How about those players that had +12 weapons when i started playing in May 09. They paid 2.4k USD for that now I got a +12 orb for 50 gold.
those ppl are idiots. the ppl that does that are the same ppl that paid $15k+ for a warsoul (or however much it costs) and then quit the game or just rarely if ever play the game.
these kinds of ppl do not have common sense to know when they are getting ripped off.
then cry there eyes out when a sale that makes the item they bought 50-60% off. i mean seriously. who the hell would pay 2.4k usd for that? AND WHY WOULD U DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE? i dont care if its "your money" there is no excuse for being a idiot.0 -
Barunaa - Heavens Tear wrote: »those ppl are idiots. the ppl that does that are the same ppl that paid $15k+ for a warsoul (or however much it costs) and then quit the game or just rarely if ever play the game.
these kinds of ppl do not have common sense to know when they are getting ripped off.
then cry there eyes out when a sale that makes the item they bought 50-60% off. i mean seriously. who the **** would pay 2.4k usd for that? AND WHY WOULD U DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE? i dont care if its "your money" there is no excuse for being a idiot.
Read my post above yours kthx.Push me,
And then just touch me.
Tilll I get my,
Satisfaction.0 -
There's an offset to so many packs flooding the market, which is a cheaper product that requires less and less CS'ing. That works against PW. That's why just popping out super cheap **** doesn't inherently make more money for PW. No talking out thy *** plx.Barunaa - Heavens Tear wrote: »you're a business major? you need to find whoever taught u and get ur money back for that course and then relearn it somewhere else.
business wise they will actually make less sales. by them raising the price to 50 the only people who will buy that trash are the desprate as **** cash shoppers. if you have ANY sense of reason then you will wait till the sale comes where they are at there cheapest. the same goes for packs. no one (in there right natural and common sensable frame of mind) would buy backs for 1 gold each. they will wait till the packs are at there cheapests and buy them for at 15 gold for x 50 packs instead of 50 gold for 50 packs.
those types of sales make the most money because ppl wait to buy them at there absolute cheapest. if they are at price that is 2x-4x higher then that then ppl simply wont buy it and PW will make LESS money off of that sale.
another thing you have to realize to why your comparison was bad is that this is a virtual game. the items they make are pretty much unlimited. they can make a walking talking ***** that magically makes all of ur equips +12 once its worn and never run out of supply because its virtual.
so when a company makes a "sale" like this then that means that all they are trying to do is milk money off of u when they can. the supply of those orbs are nearly unlimited unlike a box of cereal. why do you think they do so many pack sales nearly every month? its because they make a **** ton of money off of those sales compared to the "normal" price.
Note that placing the ocean orbs at 50 gold is not "raising the price". The price is 75 gold for ocean orbs. When they sold them at 25 each or 20 in a pack of 5 at 100 gold, that was a sale. At 50 gold, it's still a sale. The only reason you skew it with words like "raising the price" is because you are only viewing it from consumer perspective. That's nice and all, however, you have no business arguing about "business" or talking down to anyone when you are only viewing things from one perspective.
The comparison is valid between digital item and tangible item because, as I've iterated a billion times in this topic (no hyperbole of course) there's real cash involved in these transactions. It's funny how you can make a tangible comparison of consumer reaction yet tell me in the same paragraph how my comparison cannot be made. Hypocrite much? You cannot declare PW's resources infinite, there is no such thing as infinite product resources i.e. infinite supply. PW has quite limited resources, and certainly the way they create digital items relates to how much people are going to buy. Again, no talking out of thy *** plx.
What's really funny is I've been arguing "my point" this entire time, however, if you want some real humour, look at your avoidance of the point being made, obviously you lack the intelligence on the subject to argue it, and how quickly you revert to namecalling and subject changing. Don't worry, I bet you'll sleep quite well tonight with how much you fap to your own posts.tatakairyu wrote: »Oh no, name calling, it's what refutes words and proves people right. That's what I thought lol, anyone who fails to argue their point goes straight to it.
Though, it is pretty amusing considering you hear what you want to hear so you can tell yourself you were right and have a nice sleep tonight lol.0 -
Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »That's not the point. The point is they spent something sure they may have spent money and others spent time doesn't matter what you spent. Was just playing devil's advocate to the other person's post.
thats just the way I look at itb:laugh0 -
However you want to argue it. Fact is they are pissing off players by riasing prices compared to the last several sales. The in game popultion is already dwindled alot. Probably not the best idea to push away people who want to spend money. Consider that on my server a significant portion of the people left in my faction are already talking about leaving in mass to another unnamable game.
Sure they should not have maybe sold it so cheap in the first place, but in a video game very few are gonna be willing to compete against farmers or cash shopers who had to only pay a fraction of the price for thier superior gears.0
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