R8 vs G13 vs R9 vs G15 vs Hitman!!

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Out of boredom and recent discoveries about proc rates and dps formulas I came up with this table of calculations. It shows the dps outputs of Rank 8, Rank 9, G13, G15 (with Gof, -.05 int, and Crit +2%), and Hitman Legends.

Table of dps: http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt319/raindeux/DpsReview.png

The build/gear I used: http://pwcalc.com/e707736bb2219756

All weapons were sharded with 2 garnet gems.

The conclusion:

With no tome, daggers in order of best dps to worst dps are:
Rank 9
G15
G13
Rank 8
Hitman Legend

With a Pan Gu tome, daggers in order of best dps to worst dps are:
G15
Rank 9
G13
Hitman Legend
Rank 8

One thing to note, due to the different refining rates of the differently graded weapons, G13-G16, the order of "best to least" changes with refine level. But overall this is the order of best to least.

Another thing to note. R8 with a tome beats G13 without a tome with a refinement lower than +10, yet costs the same amount of money. You can either get a tome and daggers, or just daggers, with virtually same dps. Also, Hitman Legends also out dps G13 with a tome and a refinement level of +10 or lower.

If you notice any flaws in my math please tell me so I can adjust it, if you'd like me to make other comparisons please let me know. If you think this was a waste of time that explained something that's already been proven and I'm just another bored person who enjoys playing around with PW calc please say meow rawr rawr rawr.

And yes I know G13 and R8 have already been compared by Saku(which can be found here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1160701), but I wanted to compare all 5 of the hot topic daggers people consider end game.
b:cute

Traz - Dreamweaver

Shards do change those results, just so you know.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Hey! Excellent spreadsheet and good resource. Not sure if theorizing about Rank 9 +12 is sticky worthy because thats not a reality for 99% of the players, but its still an excellent resource and I'll be bookmarking it. I'd vote for a sticky, too (especially if you linked mine ~.o )

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But overall this is the order of best to least.

You used pretty much the best, most ideal stats for G15 daggers with GoF, -int, and a damage add. Anything less than the best possible adds on G15 then Rank 9 out DDs them.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you notice any flaws in my math...

Nope, I've done all this math myself and these are pretty much the exact results I got. I was just too lazy to share with the sin community and put it into a nice displayable format. I'd much rather yell at people "No, you're wrong, I've done the math I just don't want to show you it" and let them assume I'm right.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And yes I know G13 and R8 have already been compared by Suka...

...Saku


Edit: wtf, I used an upsidedown question mark icon and it deleted 3/4 of my post after it. Redone.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Shards do change those results, just so you know.

Well since people consider these 5 daggers end game (depending on their budget and time/effort constraints, it only makes sense to compare "end game" daggers sharded with end game shards. All are sharded with 2 garnet gems.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hey! Excellent spreadsheet and good resource. Not sure if theorizing about Rank 9 +12 is sticky worthy because thats not a reality for 99% of the players, but its still an excellent resource and I'll be bookmarking it. I'd vote for a sticky, too (especially if you linked mine ~.o )

Lol well its just for reference, if youre wondering what would be more dps, this is where you should look.

Oh and I linked you xP

You used pretty much the best, most ideal stats for G15 daggers with GoF, -int, and a damage add. Anything less than the best possible adds on G15 then Rank 9 out DDs them.

Yes I know, but in your thread, or maybe a different one, the "well this weapon exists, 3 of them in the game on all servers combined, and they out DD R9, therefore G15 is better". So I used that just to appease them. Should I also do a G15 with S.S, -.05 int, and HP +350? Just to see how you really do need the BEST stats to out DD rank 9? I think I might do it xD

Nope, I've done all this math myself and these are pretty much the exact results I got. I was just too lazy to share with the sin community and put it into a nice displayable format. I'd much rather yell at people "No, you're wrong, I've done the math I just don't want to show you it" and let them assume I'm right.

Lol I showed the math so you could easily doublecheck it.

...Saku

Fixed =3

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well since people consider these 5 daggers end game (depending on their budget and time/effort constraints, it only makes sense to compare "end game" daggers sharded with end game shards. All are sharded with 2 garnet gems.


Lol well its just for reference, if youre wondering what would be more dps, this is where you should look.

Oh and I linked you xP



Yes I know, but in your thread, or maybe a different one, the "well this weapon exists, 3 of them in the game on all servers combined, and they out DD R9, therefore G15 is better". So I used that just to appease them. Should I also do a G15 with S.S, -.05 int, and HP +350? Just to see how you really do need the BEST stats to out DD rank 9? I think I might do it xD




Lol I showed the math so you could easily doublecheck it.


Fixed =3

I meant DoT in the armor since r9 already has attack levels. It will alter the results because attack levels are not a straight % they have diminishing returns.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Yes I know. But in my opinion its stupid to shard with dots lol. So I won't do calcs with them in there.

And as for r9 weapon I multiplied by 1.58 for attack levels. Since I read the 30 from Jones and 30 from weapon only comes out to about 58 attack levels due to the diminishing returns.

truekossy

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes I know. But in my opinion its stupid to shard with dots lol. So I won't do calcs with them in there.

And as for r9 weapon I multiplied by 1.58 for attack levels. Since I read the 30 from Jones and 30 from weapon only comes out to about 58 attack levels due to the diminishing returns.

You heard wrong. Attack levels don't work like that and always give the same increase to base. The diminishing returns is that the more you already have, the less another one will matter.

IE: Someone with 200 attack levels and someone with 100 attack levels both add 10 attack levels with a base damage of 1k. So now they both get an extra 100 damage... except the person with 200 attack levels is getting 100 added to their current 3k (roughly 3% increase) while the one with only 100 attack levels is getting it added to their 2k (5% increase).

Okeano - Harshlands

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lol I showed the math so you could easily doublecheck it.

Where? What forumla are you using to calculate DPS? Are you taking into account of 30 attack levels from R9 dags? Are you taking into account GoF proc rate?

Edit: I guess ignoring GoF doesn't really matter if the top 2 dags both have them and will out DPS the rest w/o GoF proc anyways.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Where? What forumla are you using to calculate DPS? Are you taking into account of 30 attack levels from R9 dags? Are you taking into account GoF proc rate?

Edit: I guess ignoring GoF doesn't really matter if the top 2 dags both have them and will out DPS the rest w/o GoF proc anyways.

Base Damage * Aps * Crit * Atk Level * Proc = Dps

Notes:

Base damage = (max damage - min damage)/2+min damage.
GoF is calced at a 30% proc rate by most user tests, so under proc for GoF I used 1.3 as the damage multiplier, 30% increase in damage.
The +30 atk level on Rank 9 was calced as 58 attack levels because I was told Atk levels have diminishing returns, I misunderstood what she meant. So the Rank 9 actually out DD's G15 in that scenario. I have an updated version I'm working on to replace that one, it'll have more comparisons. It'll change any errors.

Traz - Dreamweaver

http://pwcalc.com/1ae90c4b7b462666 <-- I bet that build out DDs G15 demon vit stone build. Someone calc it I'm to lazy, but somehow DoT are dumb?

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

http://pwcalc.com/1ae90c4b7b462666 <-- I bet that build out DDs G15 demon vit stone build. Someone calc it I'm to lazy, but somehow DoT are dumb?

Well in PvP if someone shards josd's youre kind of at a disadvantage in sharding...

Which is why I disagree with using them in armor.

HellWariorB - Raging Tide

Some question for the sage Sins out there. Should i go for G13 Daggers or make my endgame weapon the R8 daggers. I am currently making a sage Sin (only lvl 85 but is R8 + Sage bookclip + Sage Wolf Emblem + Sage Knife Trow) and was thinking about possible endgame weapons (have all TT99 gears from my clawbarb for it).

Empu - Sanctuary

HellWariorB - Raging Tide wrote: »

Some question for the sage Sins out there. Should i go for G13 Daggers or make my endgame weapon the R8 daggers. I am currently making a sage Sin (only lvl 85 but is R8 + Sage bookclip + Sage Wolf Emblem + Sage Knife Trow) and was thinking about possible endgame weapons (have all TT99 gears from my clawbarb for it).

A lot depends on wether you want to stop at r8/g13 because it's an alt, or if you want to go to r9/G15 eventually. You also need to take your budget into account, with the refine lvls that come from it.

Personally I think g13 vana is a waste of coins these days. If you just want to make an alt for farming purpose or for the fun, and as a consequence, don't want to put to much coins in it, r8 daggers are good and rather cheap considering you also get plate you prolly want to have anyway (and the leggings ofc). If you do want to make your sin as good as possible, you will have r9 or g15 as endgoal. In wich case it's cheapest to just use r8 till you get there.

As a sage sin, I think the whole aps thing is terribly overrated. G13 vana will give you a dps advantage on bosses, but it's not a very big difference (depending on shards, refines and the aps you start at). The -int won't give you a much better survivability as a sage sin imo. The much better dph with sage bp on RDS won't heal that much less then the auto-attacks with g13 would.

To say it short : G13 has advantage of slightly better dps on single targets, and to be seen better by general opinion that bases judgement on aps. R8 almost as good dps wise, but better skill wise if you like to aoe and costs way less.

HellWariorB - Raging Tide

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

A lot depends on wether you want to stop at r8/g13 because it's an alt, or if you want to go to r9/G15 eventually. You also need to take your budget into account, with the refine lvls that come from it.

Personally I think g13 vana is a waste of coins these days. If you just want to make an alt for farming purpose or for the fun, and as a consequence, don't want to put to much coins in it, r8 daggers are good and rather cheap considering you also get plate you prolly want to have anyway (and the leggings ofc). If you do want to make your sin as good as possible, you will have r9 or g15 as endgoal. In wich case it's cheapest to just use r8 till you get there.

As a sage sin, I think the whole aps thing is terribly overrated. G13 vana will give you a dps advantage on bosses, but it's not a very big difference (depending on shards, refines and the aps you start at). The -int won't give you a much better survivability as a sage sin imo. The much better dph with sage bp on RDS won't heal that much less then the auto-attacks with g13 would.

To say it short : G13 has advantage of slightly better dps on single targets, and to be seen better by general opinion that bases judgement on aps. R8 almost as good dps wise, but better skill wise if you like to aoe and costs way less.

Tyvm for the info so far. I will not go R9 on these sin because i have a R9 Sin friend with whom i do everything so no point in doing that. I still have many keys on my Barb to farm the rest of the cannies in the next 2x (i belive it will be in the next few weeks or so) required for Nirvana Pants and for the raptures i will ask my friends in guild for help. And later after some farming i plan to buy a Pan gu so i will be 4.0. About refining it will be +10 and i don't plan to refine it higher.

Empu - Sanctuary

HellWariorB - Raging Tide wrote: »

Tyvm for the info so far. I will not go R9 on these sin because i have a R9 Sin friend with whom i do everything so no point in doing that. I still have many keys on my Barb to farm the rest of the cannies in the next 2x (i belive it will be in the next few weeks or so) required for Nirvana Pants and for the raptures i will ask my friends in guild for help. And later after some farming i plan to buy a Pan gu so i will be 4.0. About refining it will be +10 and i don't plan to refine it higher.

Well, at +10 with all -int bonusses on armor, G13 will be the better option in dps and chi management. However, from experience ingame (I don't believe much in pure figure math), the difference isn't that big, so a lucky crit can turn things around. The extra chi gain should make it easier to toss in some subsea/powerdash more easily then r8 though. If that's worth 200+ mil extra, up to you to decide. R8 still has it's advantages of dph, but I seem to be one of the rare sins that actually cares about that.

HellWariorB - Raging Tide

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, at +10 with all -int bonusses on armor, G13 will be the better option in dps and chi management. However, from experience ingame (I don't believe much in pure figure math), the difference isn't that big, so a lucky crit can turn things around. The extra chi gain should make it easier to toss in some subsea/powerdash more easily then r8 though. If that's worth 200+ mil extra, up to you to decide. R8 still has it's advantages of dph, but I seem to be one of the rare sins that actually cares about that.

Well not quite i have some R8 +10 sin Friends who still think the same thing b:chuckle. Well i still have time to decide so i'll keep my mind open b:cute.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

I'm probably gonna do both on my Sage Sin. b:shocked Get R8, shard, mild refines (I'm a vit build right now, 90 base, 95 str), then farm G13 daggers. Goal is G15 though... But I suspect I will be recasting them a lot, because I want 2 sockets, GoF/Berserk/Zerk, and -int on them. b:chuckle

I gotta get rep for R8 first, and then to 100 as well. b:surrender

OpferKlopfer - Momaganon

Mhmm what is meaning with "No Tome"? No intervall tome?

i mean G13 +12 188k dmg vs G15+12 206k dmg not that much diffrence in my mind..

But with Pangu 261dmg and G13 only 190k? how this works o_o

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

OpferKlopfer - Momaganon wrote: »

Mhmm what is meaning with "No Tome"? No intervall tome?

i mean G13 +12 188k dmg vs G15+12 206k dmg not that much diffrence in my mind..

But with Pangu 261dmg and G13 only 190k? how this works o_o

Well think of it like this. With no tome the G13's hit at 5 aps sparked. The G15 only hits at 4. G13 gets an entire extra hit per second over the G15's. Which is why without a tome the difference isnt that large.

But with a tome, the G13 still only hits at 5 aps, the 2k extra damage is simply the +1% crit the tome gives, the G13's dont benefit from the -.05 int when sparked because they're already at 5 aps. The G15's however now are hitting at 5 aps, that extra hit per second is what causes the huge damage spike with G15 when using a tome.

That's why every single weapon except the G13's see a huge damage per second increase when using a tome, it increases sparked aps, the G13's dont benefit from it since they already are 5 aps, with or without the tome.

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well think of it like this. With no tome the G13's hit at 5 aps sparked. The G15 only hits at 4. G13 gets an entire extra hit per second over the G15's. Which is why without a tome the difference isnt that large.

But with a tome, the G13 still only hits at 5 aps, the 2k extra damage is simply the +1% crit the tome gives, the G13's dont benefit from the -.05 int when sparked because they're already at 5 aps. The G15's however now are hitting at 5 aps, that extra hit per second is what causes the huge damage spike with G15 when using a tome.

That's why every single weapon except the G13's see a huge damage per second increase when using a tome, it increases sparked aps, the G13's dont benefit from it since they already are 5 aps, with or without the tome.

I'm not sure what person would ever bother to do something without their tome, which makes those numbers completely irrelevant. I'd rather see numbers without DoT and with DoT rather then no tome and tome.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not sure what person would ever bother to do something without their tome, which makes those numbers completely irrelevant. I'd rather see numbers without DoT and with DoT rather then no tome and tome.

Feel free to do it then. It isn't hard. Takes about 5 minutes.

I showed the tome to show how its better to skip G13 and use the money to buy a Pan Gu and instead save up for R9 and use R8. Since G15 is only better with those 1 in a million adds. I have an updated version that shows G15 with S.S and -int only. R9 out DD's it...by a lot.

Thats all my post was trying to say, dont go nirv, r8/9 is better...(and cheaper)

Olbaze - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Feel free to do it then. It isn't hard. Takes about 5 minutes.

I showed the tome to show how its better to skip G13 and use the money to buy a Pan Gu and instead save up for R9 and use R8. Since G15 is only better with those 1 in a million adds. I have an updated version that shows G15 with S.S and -int only. R9 out DD's it...by a lot.

Thats all my post was trying to say, dont go nirv, r8/9 is better...(and cheaper)

Indeed, the point that your post shows is that going G13 Nirvana over R8+Tome isn't a smart choice if you're looking to improve from that point.

That and that even with a tome, G13 Nirvana has ~7% more DPS than R8, which clearly does not justify investing 250m on it. Especially since that would buy you a +11 refine or two +10s.

However, you still won't change anything. People will still buy the G13 Nirvana because people are dumb. People don't care what's best, they care what others think is best. Or, in this case, people buy G13 Nirvana in order to get into better Nirvana squads.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Indeed, the point that your post shows is that going G13 Nirvana over R8+Tome isn't a smart choice if you're looking to improve from that point.

That and that even with a tome, G13 Nirvana has ~7% more DPS than R8, which clearly does not justify investing 250m on it. Especially since that would buy you a +11 refine or two +10s.

However, you still won't change anything. People will still buy the G13 Nirvana because people are dumb. People don't care what's best, they care what others think is best. Or, in this case, people buy G13 Nirvana in order to get into better Nirvana squads.

Which is why I'm trying to educate the sin comunity. Show them that Rank 8 is better, so that I'm not forced into getting G13 just so people will take me on more nirv runs since it's soooooo much better than Rank 8 + a tome to them......... -.-

I should post this in Gen Discussion so everyone sees it.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Which is why I'm trying to educate the sin comunity. Show them that Rank 8 is better, so that I'm not forced into getting G13 just so people will take me on more nirv runs since it's soooooo much better than Rank 8 + a tome to them......... -.-

I should post this in Gen Discussion so everyone sees it.

Oh, you'll still need to get the G13 because OMFG ONLY 4.0 APS LOL NOOB GO AWAY!

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

After reading this whole thread, it goes to show that I still regret getting G13 vanas.

This +10 G13 vana daggers with 2 G11 Garnets in it is collecting dust and is rusting in my inventory.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

However, you still won't change anything. People will still buy the G13 Nirvana because people are dumb. People don't care what's best, they care what others think is best. Or, in this case, people buy G13 Nirvana in order to get into better Nirvana squads.

They are only dumb if they are not using it to go G15. I had mine before r9 came out so while mine are +12 with drakes that was one of the first few pairs on dreamweaver. I'd rather make G15 lunar anyway so I can share with sage sin on a different account. b:victory

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Feel free to do it then. It isn't hard. Takes about 5 minutes.

I showed the tome to show how its better to skip G13 and use the money to buy a Pan Gu and instead save up for R9 and use R8. Since G15 is only better with those 1 in a million adds. I have an updated version that shows G15 with S.S and -int only. R9 out DD's it...by a lot.

Thats all my post was trying to say, dont go nirv, r8/9 is better...(and cheaper)

r9 isn't cheaper then G15, the ring is what does that in.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

They are only dumb if they are not using it to go G15. I had mine before r9 came out so while mine are +12 with drakes that was one of the first few pairs on dreamweaver. I'd rather make G15 lunar anyway so I can share with sage sin on a different account. b:victory

Even if you dont go G15, why just use G13 dags when you can get a tome and dags for same price and virtually same dps. And IF you ever do decide to upgrade you already have the tome purchased. Rank 9 out DDs G15 99% of the time. And the cost is the same, slightly cheaper if you just want G15 with decent adds, but it will get out DDd by rank 9 if you dont aim for god like stats.

r9 isn't cheaper then G15, the ring is what does that in.

Its close to 900 mil to buy both Rank 9 ring and weapon. Its 600-700 mil on average to get G15 with decent adds. And Rank 9 out DDs those kinds of G15 dags by a lot. It takes perfect G15s to out DD R9..... As long as you have the tome. Which if you went R8 and not G13 you would already have, for same price as G13. If you have G13, no tome, and want to switch to rank 9 then the cost is a lot more, but that's why I'm saying G13 is a waste of money.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

They are only dumb if they are not using it to go G15. I had mine before r9 came out so while mine are +12 with drakes that was one of the first few pairs on dreamweaver. I'd rather make G15 lunar anyway so I can share with sage sin on a different account. b:victory

I've seen less than a handful of G15 Nirvanas. I've seen a few dozen handfuls of +10 G13 Nirvanas sharded with Garnet Gems.

r9 isn't cheaper then G15, the ring is what does that in.

Then again, if you're talking about actual endgame, then you'll have to ignore the cost of the ring, since it is the best ring in the game and you'll be getting it whether you get the dagger or not. Kinda like how R8 dagger does not cost 72 Gold and 2m coins just because Rank 8 costs 72 Gold.

HellWariorB - Raging Tide

ImNotFiveAps can u make the calculations for sage sins as well please. not everyone is demon btw. b:thanks

Okeano - Harshlands

HellWariorB - Raging Tide wrote: »

ImNotFiveAps can u make the calculations for sage sins as well please. not everyone is demon btw. b:thanks

Just look at the ranking according to unsparked DPS.

Empu - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

People don't care what's best, they care what others think is best.

I think that part needed to be more visible b:chuckle at least 90% of the players don't have an own will or mind, and just follow what the comunity dictates : "an item with -int is always better then an item without -int"

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Which is why I'm trying to educate the sin comunity. Show them that Rank 8 is better, so that I'm not forced into getting G13 just so people will take me on more nirv runs since it's soooooo much better than Rank 8 + a tome to them......... -.-

Good luck with that. I (along with others ofc) tried to educate the comunity that demon is not the only good culti for a sin. Now that sage sins are pretty much recognised (and I hope I played a tiny part in that myself b:cute ), I went on an anti-aps crusade. I systematically refuse any squad asking my aps, telling them I won't vana with ppl that prefer my crappy -30% requirement fists over r9 +12 daggers.

However, keep in mind there is a huge gap between wc squads and good vana squads. I get invited for many fast (5 to 10min runs) vana runs and at 2x my chat window is a wall of pink and blue pm's for vana, but I don't match any of the wc requirements. For some it's just impossible that 2.86 aps can outdamage 5 aps b:laugh

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

After reading this whole thread, it goes to show that I still regret getting G13 vanas.

This +10 G13 vana daggers with 2 G11 Garnets in it is collecting dust and is rusting in my inventory.

b:avoid Make a sage sin on your account to use them again, but then you might end up with r9 daggers collecting dust b:avoid

joking ofc