Endgame gear for sage wizard
Comments
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i'm glad you recruited clearly-unbiased help to support your position. should i go get some biased testimonials from Jade users, instead of putting the objective math on the board?
certainly any talented player can make either build work reasonably well. there are talented, well refined r8s/nirvana who hold their own against r9s, if they play to their class's strengths. what i'm saying is that when both builds are pushed to their limit in a fully competitive TW, you will score plenty of kills on both - and yes, 10.7% higher damage on average, per hit, on a DoT build - but a full Jade build will prove itself more useful in most situations.
why? 10.7% damage per hit loses its significance when you are not hitting as often because you are either 1) forced to play too defensively, due to the fragility of a full DoT build or 2) repeatedly dying. i'm sure you're in category #1 if you are dying very few times in a truly competitive TW on a DoT build. i commend your kiting and evasive abilities, and i'm impressed (no, really) by the extra 10%ish damage on your attacks.
the only thing that does not impress me is that, if a Jade build lasts even one attack (or worse yet, one aoe) longer - you lose your +10% damage ten-fold. what if that extra aoe is another tick of dragon's breath in the middle of the fray? that could mean the difference between finishing off several players - and perhaps even surviving the encounter - and just ticking their hieros because you dropped as soon as your ironguard did.
you are conditioning on the fact that you get to land an attack, and better yet, that you are in a good position to land an attack. yes, in that case, you will deal 10% more damage with a DoT build.
what i am telling you is that against opponents who know your build, they will either drop you before you're able to finish attacking, or force you to play so defensively - yes, kiting is great, up to the point where you start taking yourself out of the fight - that you are unable to be in the right place at the right moment to aoe.
post all the anecdotes you want. i'm sure with a large enough sample size you could find one instance of an r9 DoT mage taking on 10 r9s at once and killing them all. this isn't about what one player can do against (possibly unskilled) opponents, it's about which build will serve you better in the long run, OP players vs OP players.0 -
Real mages shard aquamarine anyways. All of you silly willys with your jades and diamonds.Siggy from bellefleurs.
[SIGPIC]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/25yzm05jpg.png/[/SIGPIC]
youtube.com/user/HardToYawn?blend=1&ob=video-mustangbase0 -
I agree with you. Though, with your Dragon's Breath idea, if a wizard is going in to DB in a cluster of people while in an ironguard status, that's fine he lives for 12 seconds for sure, and if you're going into that cluster, good chance there's another right behind them and even with full +12 and JoSD..I don't see that wizard surviving unless he gets out before the IG is out. Which, can be done the same as DoT build.
I just don't see JoSD helping that much when there's so many people hitting you. Yes of course it helps, just yea..[SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?u=14463705003&type=sigpic&dateline=1322469658[/SIGPIC]0 -
negativereaction wrote: »i'm glad you recruited clearly-unbiased help to support your position. should i go get some biased testimonials from Jade users, instead of putting the objective math on the board?
certainly any talented player can make either build work reasonably well. there are talented, well refined r8s/nirvana who hold their own against r9s, if they play to their class's strengths. what i'm saying is that when both builds are pushed to their limit in a fully competitive TW, you will score plenty of kills on both - and yes, 10.7% higher damage on average, per hit, on a DoT build - but a full Jade build will prove itself more useful in most situations.
why? 10.7% damage per hit loses its significance when you are not hitting as often because you are either 1) forced to play too defensively, due to the fragility of a full DoT build or 2) repeatedly dying. i'm sure you're in category #1 if you are dying very few times in a truly competitive TW on a DoT build. i commend your kiting and evasive abilities, and i'm impressed (no, really) by the extra 10%ish damage on your attacks.
the only thing that does not impress me is that, if a Jade build lasts even one attack (or worse yet, one aoe) longer - you lose your +10% damage ten-fold. what if that extra aoe is another tick of dragon's breath in the middle of the fray? that could mean the difference between finishing off several players - and perhaps even surviving the encounter - and just ticking their hieros because you dropped as soon as your ironguard did.
you are conditioning on the fact that you get to land an attack, and better yet, that you are in a good position to land an attack. yes, in that case, you will deal 10% more damage with a DoT build.
what i am telling you is that against opponents who know your build, they will either drop you before you're able to finish attacking, or force you to play so defensively - yes, kiting is great, up to the point where you start taking yourself out of the fight - that you are unable to be in the right place at the right moment to aoe.
post all the anecdotes you want. i'm sure with a large enough sample size you could find one instance of an r9 DoT mage taking on 10 r9s at once and killing them all. this isn't about what one player can do against (possibly unskilled) opponents, it's about which build will serve you better in the long run, OP players vs OP players.
Alright so just with respect of things you have said
We are only comparing going against top tier players with top tier gear. For a wiz to be dropped that fast before finishing off an attack you would for one have to put yourself in terrible positioning imo. That is not something a top tier'd person would do. So you say another good player would drop you that fast but that shouldn't be possible if you do not allow people to focus fire you that much.
A spark'd +12 r9 archer would have to crit 3x in a row to 3 shot me and that's assuming i'm dumb enough to stand there and allow myself to be hit. The only most unfortate death that could occur is a full DoT +12 r9 archer breaking my first pdef charm with a crit barrage hit and follow thru with a charm bypass barrage hit which is possible. Here we have myself letting a barrage tick me twice aka another fail moment.
The point you bring up that make a DoT build squishy and fail compared to jades are all based on mistakes that rookie wizzies make. Letting yourself get stunned in a bad enough position to die is a horrible mistake that wizzies make.
I'm not completely biased towards DoT for all around as i do wish i had jades for pk because sins are that much more effective in pk than tw. But a tw setting for a wiz if you have a squad with a bm at par gears with the rest of the r9 wizzies that should be sufficient to allow proper positioning to not die as a wiz. Regardless of sharding jades and taking 1 more hit, I still believe very strongly as a DoT wiz you can get away from that hit that should kill you with atleast the genie that I use in tw.
So for tw purposes i believe that DoT should be the way to go especially if you can afford +12 gears. 17k + hp buffed is something you should not die with almost at any point unless completely overrun by people holy pathing to catch u kiting.
Jades would be what you would want in pk again to me only for the sins that you have to deal with. Those jades will help avoid some charm bypasses that sins can do etc etc *insert sin qq*.
I myself believe that if I were able to play at my full potential a whole tw and did not attempt the stupid but fun tactics that i do sometime get away with regardless then a full DoT wizzy is easily #1 build for wizzies in tw.0 -
Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »There you go. Real time proof that a DoT wizard can excel in TW against a faction that is packed with R9 users. Though, I like how you think I'm saying that a DoT wizard can tank as the same as a JoSD wizard. No, they cannot..obviously. If you read what I said correctly though, you would see I basically mentioned it's not necessary to need to tank like that.
3 shot by R9 archers? Please..you saying that should have made this thread get locked lol.
Hey... new to this discussion but I read the whole thread, slogged my way through the various long posts etc as r9 builds have caught my attention lately.
The vids that scruffy put up are very entertaining, thanks for introducing me to a new channel for tw vids, scruff. b:thanks
Scruffy:
I noticed you were getting hit by archers normal attacks for 5k+ crits. I saw a 5.8k crit normal attack, for instance, while being fully buffed. That makes you a two shot, easily. A r9 +12 archer that knows how to use take aim can bypass your charm in an instant with little to no effort. There's just no reason a full R9 wiz should be taking damage like that... I assume you're full R9 +10 with the hp that you had. While your damage was godly, you spent a lot of time kiting around behind the front line when you could have been IN the front line dealing (still godly) damage with a full JosD build.
The video is more damning to a full DoT build than anything, imo0 -
AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »Hey... new to this discussion but I read the whole thread, slogged my way through the various long posts etc as r9 builds have caught my attention lately.
The vids that scruffy put up are very entertaining, thanks for introducing me to a new channel for tw vids, scruff. b:thanks
Scruffy:
I noticed you were getting hit by archers normal attacks for 5k+ crits. I saw a 5.8k crit normal attack, for instance, while being fully buffed. That makes you a two shot, easily. A r9 +12 archer that knows how to use take aim can bypass your charm in an instant with little to no effort. There's just no reason a full R9 wiz should be taking damage like that... I assume you're full R9 +10 with the hp that you had. While your damage was godly, you spent a lot of time kiting around behind the front line when you could have been IN the front line dealing (still godly) damage with a full JosD build.
The video is more damning to a full DoT build than anything, imo
lol why would i stand there and let an archer hit me like that rofl...
The only 5k+ crits are off quickshots and if you could point me to that 5.8k crit normal attack at a timing in the video then yea let me know. As tbh the damage with a full JoSD build is not godly.... lol wizzies without full DoT's do not bother me at all lol.
Btw wizzies don't stand in the front line like that lol you aren't there to take the dmg... you are a dd class not a tanking class.
Not to mention here this thread is about even better gear than mine which would be a full +12 set not just my +10 set. So clearly a full Dot +12 set would have a larger advantage than what I have.0 -
i am not talking about "rookie mistakes" like getting stunned in a bad spot, i'm saying that with a DoT build you need to play more cautiously - kite more - which means you spend more time evading (which is great, cool, it's a necessary skill), but by being forced to kite so much you spend less time able to attack, or able to attack where it hurts the most.
if an enemy EA is critting you for 5.8k -- i don't care what skill he's using, that's unacceptably high, and indeed quite damning for DoT builds -- then that EA can easily prevent even a talented mage from getting close enough to the fray to launch an ulti at the right time or drop DB on a crowd. sure, you can pop an ironguard and do anything, but if you're getting critted by a single player for more than 1/3 of your buffed hp, at 34 range, you will drop as soon as you're out of invincibility. that is not necessarily the case for someone with the additional 48 defense level cushion that a Jade build provides.
i have no problem stating that a DoT build can be done "well," or that in the right hands it can perform better than some average players on a Jade build. it certainly can. but "a full DoT wizzy is easily #1 build for wizzies in tw" is a falsehood that i don't feel comfortable letting sit untouched, on a forum where new players look for guidance for their future builds.
by the way, i also just spotted a comment that seemingly compared your full DoT build (again, call this M1) to a full jade build (M2), mage vs mage. please do not make offhand, unsupported statements like this and expect them to go unnoticed.
let's compare damage taken when M1 and M2 attack each other. i don't have my mage spreadsheet handy on this computer, but i do have a damage spreadsheet for an r9 psychic, also with the sage masteries. choose the skill crystal light, which is a mid strength magic attack (comparable to mage blizzard blast, except a little less damage).
damage taken from crystal light with (99 - 26) attack levels, which is M2's attack minus M1's def, with 70% mdef: 5255 <-- the damage M2 (Jade) deals to M1 (DoT)
damage taken from crystal light with (123 - 74) attack levels, which is M1's attack minus M2's def, with 70% mdef: 4526 <-- the damage M1 (DoT) deals to M2 (Jade)
this takes into account both players' final attack and defense levels. full DoT mage hits full Jade mage for 4526, full Jade mage hits full DoT mage for 5255. this is a difference of 16%.
i don't know how much clearer i can make it. even fighting 1 on 1 against each other, despite having "omg 123 attack levels", you are dealing 16% less damage to a full jade mage than he is dealing to you. so if you claim full Jade mages can't touch you, then you most certainly cannot touch them. please kindly take your misinformation somewhere that it won't get refuted.0 -
You asked where the 5.8k crit happened that I mentioned earlier, so I watched the video again but I couldn't find it in the one you linked. I was watching the other videos you uploaded of that TW as well so I'm assuming that it happened in one of the others, however I'm not going to rewatch them just to find it when there are enough of 2.5k non crits and 5k+ crits from unsparked archers in the vid you linked to see that a 5.8k crit normal hit is not unlikely.Scrubby - Heavens Tear wrote: »A spark'd +12 r9 archer would have to crit 3x in a row to 3 shot me and that's assuming i'm dumb enough to stand there and allow myself to be hit.Scrubby - Heavens Tear wrote: »lol why would i stand there and let an archer hit me like that rofl...
At 13:15, a 3x sparked R9 archer kills you in three hits (literally just runs right up to you and kills you) with normal attacks at ~8-9k crits, and a 5.4k noncrit. I guess 1) Your reaction time sucked, or 2) you were dumb enough just to stand there and let him hit you. b:shutup0 -
Well 1. lets take into effect i'm a human not a machine mistakes happen
2. everyone gets overrun on a lane once inna while so you tend to take big hits.
3. I've still yet to see these 5k+ crits on me
4. I thought we were talking about end game gear and not my own gear set
- aka full +12 with stage 3 neckie and I assume 1x +12 pq ring to reduce magic attacks.
Alot of what you guys are saying are against my own personal build which i have to work with because I don't cs my +12's. I think you guys are losing scope of the end game wizz rather than what my own personal wiz build is.
Don't forget end game attack lvl I believe with only 1 pq ring will be my 123 +2(pq ring) + 4(cube necky) = 129.
So I think (I've not done it on pwi calc) that with full +12's, I don't see 5k+ crits happening with a proper necklace end game and the hp would be around 17.5k? (correct if wrong).
So all I'm saying here is lets keep it with respect to full endgame gear not the gear set that I perform with. I still very firmly believe that a full DoT wizzy will be able to perform just as well with proper positioning.
Alot of these scenarios that you are giving me such as an archer cancelling me away by pushing me back is not very viable which is why in a tw setting we have squads not just solo. IF I think an archer is shadowing me to keep me bak, I would clearly reposition to get an angle on my ulti, so no i don't think any class but possibly a barb could be harassing me that badly.
I cannot attest to what posibly lc tws are like with more jades builds from what i hear. But we have alot of archers in that opposing faction that have survival builds and i also do not believe a full jades wizzy can 1 shot a full jades +12 archer with a +12 stage 3 necky whereas I have done so with my own damage.
If you want 1 v 1 performances than i don't believe any full +12 sets of armor should be able to kill each other unless the other makes a big mistake aka not being a top tier player.
As a side note: I've still yet to see these 5k+ hits but if you've seen them then yes I will take your word for it. I would account maybe 5-10% of my deaths avoidable and due to human error whereas alot of them I do believe if I had full jades I would be dead regardless.
SO again I'm going to state and remind you guys that we are talking about end game sets that there are not possible ways to be 3 shot from a spark'd archer and not my own gear set.0 -
negativereaction wrote: »i don't know how much clearer i can make it.
you could try using the correct terms for this version of pwi, idk wtf blizzard blast or pyro-edge is...0 -
Scrubby - Heavens Tear wrote: »Well 1. lets take into effect i'm a human not a machine mistakes happen
2. everyone gets overrun on a lane once inna while so you tend to take big hits.
3. I've still yet to see these 5k+ crits on me
4. I thought we were talking about end game gear and not my own gear set
- aka full +12 with stage 3 neckie and I assume 1x +12 pq ring to reduce magic attacks.
1. DoD's do wonders to diminish the effects of human error. Just sayin. b:surrender
2. See 1.
3. Re-watch the second video of the TW that you linked earlier, around 4 minutes in I think there were some, but like I said I'm not going back to make sure. GTIMIKE or w/e seems to hit you really hard, as well as another R9 archer. Female. Dont remember the name but 'archer' was in the name I believe.
4. I thought we were discussing DoT vs DoD in an equally refined gear set. The respective refines are more or less irrelevant, even though I will make an educated guess and predict that a DoD sharded mage would benefit more from +12 than a DoT sharded mage. Feel free to show the math to support or refute that, its just a guess.0 -
Scrubby - Heavens Tear wrote: »SO again I'm going to state and remind you guys that we are talking about end game sets that there are not possible ways to be 3 shot from a spark'd archer and not my own gear set.
right, but the direct damage comparison i made between full DoT and full Jade in a 1 vs 1 setting, assumed essentially endgame gear (actually it didn't even take HP refines into account, since it was just demonstrating damage on a single attack). i don't know how you can look at a Jade mage dealing 16% more damage to a DoT build, than a DoT build deals to Jade, and still think there's any comparison in a 1 on 1 setting (like you claimed about "wizzies without full DoT's do not bother me at all lol." - then your damage certainly does not bother them because they outdamage you 1 on 1).
i don't think anyone here is bashing your specific build - aside from my comment that taking 6k per hit is unacceptable - mostly i'm interested in demonstrating that, endgame gear vs endgame gear, talent vs talent, TW setting, 24 Jades will serve you much better than 24 DoT.
the only, and i mean only, case where it will not, is the case you implicitly assume in some of your remarks - that you can run around the TW field, unimpeded, and have the advantage of kiting perfectly while never being too far away from the fray. in that case, yeah, you'll deal an extra 10ish% damage and won't pay any price for it. but against talented and geared foes, it is not possible to kite as much as a DoT build needs to, and at the same time keep yourself from being taken out of play by having to kite so much. the difference here between a DoT build and a Jade build is substantial.
i am not even talking so much about getting dropped in 3 hits as opposed to 4, if you take direct damage with no defensive measures. i am more talking about being forced to play more defensively, taking you away from the action. and why wouldn't you have to? even if you felt like wasting your time in TW by fighting an enemy Jade mage 1 on 1, you'd be forced to play defensively unless you happen to crit at the right time because that 24-Jade mage will straight-up damage you more than you damage him.
Sun_Burn - sorry, holdover from the old days as well as the fact that i continue to play a few other servers besides PWI. not to mention the PWI names suck.
pyro-edge = BT
BB (blizzard blast) = glacial snare
mage = wizard
and yes, AgentPotato, the less damage you take (which really just boils down to defense levels since most builds have high resists these days), the more you benefit from an additional HP buffer. that is, a full Jade build benefits more, going from +10 to +12 refines, than a full DoT build does.0 -
AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »1. DoD's do wonders to diminish the effects of human error. Just sayin. b:surrender
2. See 1.
3. Re-watch the second video of the TW that you linked earlier, around 4 minutes in I think there were some, but like I said I'm not going back to make sure. GTIMIKE or w/e seems to hit you really hard, as well as another R9 archer. Female. Dont remember the name but 'archer' was in the name I believe.
4. I thought we were discussing DoT vs DoD in an equally refined gear set. The respective refines are more or less irrelevant, even though I will make an educated guess and predict that a DoD sharded mage would benefit more from +12 than a DoT sharded mage. Feel free to show the math to support or refute that, its just a guess.
ArcherDevil is pro though.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
|=>theempire.ucoz.com<=|
Where wizards pull catas and barbs are nearly extinct...0 -
AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »1. DoD's do wonders to diminish the effects of human error. Just sayin. b:surrender
2. See 1.
3. Re-watch the second video of the TW that you linked earlier, around 4 minutes in I think there were some, but like I said I'm not going back to make sure. GTIMIKE or w/e seems to hit you really hard, as well as another R9 archer. Female. Dont remember the name but 'archer' was in the name I believe.
4. I thought we were discussing DoT vs DoD in an equally refined gear set. The respective refines are more or less irrelevant, even though I will make an educated guess and predict that a DoD sharded mage would benefit more from +12 than a DoT sharded mage. Feel free to show the math to support or refute that, its just a guess.
I dont' think you read the thread title lol cough cough "Endgame gear for sage wizard" not my end game gear on my demon wizzy lol
I suppose not to make excuses but drinking during tw tends to up the chance of human errors ijs. Nor would jades have saved me in that instance as I was killing during my distance shrink so atleast 1-2 more projectiles would have hit me.
but yea since you are discussing somethign that isn't what the thread is about lol I do believe most of what you say has become irrelevant since you just clearly stated you aren't discussing what the thread is about.
@negative
Well personally even if i had jades in my gear and I see 1 archer start to hit me I'd be kiting regardless not trying to put in extra hits. Mostly to
1. avoid a purge and
2. the squads in that opposing faction assist attack well. aka I'll be dead once that second archer starts to poke me.
Myself personally seeing my self with say that end game gear. BTW i am demon so sage wizzy is prolly played differently. If i were to have another 1k base pdef from stage 3 neckie and that 17.xk hp buffed I don't see how you would have problems surviving at all. If you really need jades because you are a slower kiter then thats' valid. BUT if you are paying enough attention and have proper awareness I don't see how you will be less effective probably doubling the survivalbility that my wiz has with a full +12 endgame set.
I do agree with your math in terms of % extra damage, BUT I think the game has more to do with just math and that if you can't do a wizards proper job with a full +12 set then you certainly aren't a top tier'd wizzy. If there is enough damage to kill your wizzy as a full +12 DoT wizzy than chances are i firmly believe u are in a bad enough spot that you would die with jades on.
My personally opinion on a 1 v 1 say on the side with another mage would be there's no bad reason to play defensively if it makes your setup work better. I personally in 1 v 1 with a wiz setup off an aggressive move and find it much more difficult regardless to setup being on the agressive. Just because there are too many defenses such as FoW as you go in for a sleep, domain, popping defense charms etc etc.
Again though with full refines there aren't weapons out there that even with a full DoT build that should be able to kill you without you getting in bad positioning or overrun on a lane.
BTW i do see the validity in your math but I believe that the feel for the game must come into play and some people are just better kiters than others. Even though i play rather defensively I still wrack up significant amounts of kills and I aid significantly in pushing back lanes that are possible to be pushed back.0 -
Scrubby - Heavens Tear wrote: »I dont' think you read the thread title lol cough cough "Endgame gear for sage wizard" not my end game gear on my demon wizzy lol
I suppose not to make excuses but drinking during tw tends to up the chance of human errors ijs. Nor would jades have saved me in that instance as I was killing during my distance shrink so atleast 1-2 more projectiles would have hit me.
but yea since you are discussing somethign that isn't what the thread is about lol I do believe most of what you say has become irrelevant since you just clearly stated you aren't discussing what the thread is about.
I only joined the dicussion when DoT vs Jades were being discussed (early I said DoD while meaning jades, but that was taken for granted I hope). I would also go so far as to say that were you sharded full jades, you WOULD have survived those attacks. Full jades would have reduced what I assume to be about 100 attack levels from the enemy archer to only 50. Thats CONSIDERABLY less damage. You could have taken quite a few more hits than you did.
You keep saying that you assume full +12 gears in this scenario, but as negative and I have both said earlier, max refines make mine/negative's jades argument even MORE viable and relevant, not less as you'd like to think. A jades wizzy will benefit MORE going from +10 to +12 than a DoT wizzy. In other words, your DoT build gets even worse in comparison to a Jades build the higher you refine.
Btw, the effectiveness of Jades vs DoT sharding is a perfectly relevant endgame gear discussion, I don't understand why you think it isn't. Again, nothing against your particular build as obviously it is effective, just arguably not as effective as a jades build. You only serve as a very good example of a DoT build, having posted TW videos of your character in action, and I'm not trying to discuss only your characters build, but rather use it as evidence of why I think a DoT build is less effective in an endgame gear set than a jades build.0 -
Eh, that was only one incident. You do bring up a good point, but at the same time it is an impractical event. How often are archers going to run to you demon sparked and crit 2/3 times at the same time.[SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?u=14463705003&type=sigpic&dateline=1322469658[/SIGPIC]0
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AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »I only joined the dicussion when DoT vs Jades were being discussed (early I said DoD while meaning jades, but that was taken for granted I hope). I would also go so far as to say that were you sharded full jades, you WOULD have survived those attacks. Full jades would have reduced what I assume to be about 100 attack levels from the enemy archer to only 50. Thats CONSIDERABLY less damage. You could have taken quite a few more hits than you did.
You keep saying that you assume full +12 gears in this scenario, but as negative and I have both said earlier, max refines make mine/negative's jades argument even MORE viable and relevant, not less as you'd like to think. A jades wizzy will benefit MORE going from +10 to +12 than a DoT wizzy. In other words, your DoT build gets even worse in comparison to a Jades build the higher you refine.
Btw, the effectiveness of Jades vs DoT sharding is a perfectly relevant endgame gear discussion, I don't understand why you think it isn't. Again, nothing against your particular build as obviously it is effective, just arguably not as effective as a jades build. You only serve as a very good example of a DoT build, having posted TW videos of your character in action, and I'm not trying to discuss only your characters build, but rather use it as evidence of why I think a DoT build is less effective in an endgame gear set than a jades build.
Lol with 12.xk hp i would not have survived another 2 arrows from a demon spark'd archer lol i don't know where u think i would have survived teh last 2 projectiles hitting me at the end of my ds.
I think you aren't thiniking of gameplay then and only the math. What is legitimately gonna kill me for instance as you can see my kiting ability with 17k+ hp.
I don't recall where i said it wasn't relevant because I'm talking about end game gear not my mid/end game gear.... lol you aren't reading properly.
You were specifically using my build as your example and not the DoT build in general which would have a significant mass amount more hp.
Effective mathematically. Effective playablity? no imo a good wizzy can survive easily with 17k + hp and full DoTs.0 -
Scrubby - Heavens Tear wrote: »Lol with 12.xk hp i would not have survived another 2 arrows from a demon spark'd archer lol i don't know where u think i would have survived teh last 2 projectiles hitting me at the end of my ds.
I think you aren't thiniking of gameplay then and only the math. What is legitimately gonna kill me for instance as you can see my kiting ability with 17k+ hp.
I don't recall where i said it wasn't relevant because I'm talking about end game gear not my mid/end game gear.... lol you aren't reading properly.
You were specifically using my build as your example and not the DoT build in general which would have a significant mass amount more hp.
Effective mathematically. Effective playablity? no imo a good wizzy can survive easily with 17k + hp and full DoTs.
17k+ hp still wont save your ***, you're still a two shot. Either to two crits from boa in a row (not unlikely at all), or two normal hits from a sparked archer (again, not unlikely). Read it again to yourself, outloud: "I am a full +12 demon stone barrier wiz, and I die in two hits".
No amount of effective playability is enough to overcome the games damage formulas, sorry. =\0 -
AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »17k+ hp still wont save your ***, you're still a two shot. Either to two crits from boa in a row (not unlikely at all), or two normal hits from a sparked archer (again, not unlikely). Read it again to yourself, outloud: "I am a full +12 demon stone barrier wiz, and I die in two hits".
No amount of effective playability is enough to overcome the games damage formulas, sorry. =\
LoL... more trying to bash me haha
There's no way i'm getting 2 shot like that.. rofl. that's all i have to say lol.
If anyone else would like to point out how stupid this argument is.. lol. The lack of intelligence in this is astounding after what seemed like a rather smart debate. You reduced to trying to bash/troll me.
I've yet to see any parts in any of my videos that I will die from an archer in 2 hits with 17k+ hp lol. When you think of something smart feel free to post until then I'll just stick to debating with negative reaction.
Besides maybe when you feel like posting from a wizard to show that u've played it then maybe I'll consider your word lol. If you only want to be a mathematician then *points to archer forums*.0 -
AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »17k+ hp still wont save your ***, you're still a two shot. Either to two crits from boa in a row (not unlikely at all), or two normal hits from a sparked archer (again, not unlikely). Read it again to yourself, outloud: "I am a full +12 demon stone barrier wiz, and I die in two hits".
No amount of effective playability is enough to overcome the games damage formulas, sorry. =\
b:chuckleI really dont know you people keep saying wizard getting die in 2shoot. Im sage wizard full dot with 7khp with barb buff close 10khp. I ask r9 archer test their dmg on me, wait only 3.4dmg. b:bye 17k hp wiz can take atless 5-6shoot without charmed/pot.the survival of the fittest
-Thx all suport sell me SoW for 5M b:thanks tome/ring
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And how's the FF glitch? Do you like it?b:chuckleb:chuckleScrubby - Heavens Tear wrote: »LoL... more trying to bash me haha
There's no way i'm getting 2 shot like that.. rofl. that's all i have to say lol.
If anyone else would like to point out how stupid this argument is.. lol. The lack of intelligence in this is astounding after what seemed like a rather smart debate. You reduced to trying to bash/troll me.
I've yet to see any parts in any of my videos that I will die from an archer in 2 hits with 17k+ hp lol. When you think of something smart feel free to post until then I'll just stick to debating with negative reaction.
Besides maybe when you feel like posting from a wizard to show that u've played it then maybe I'll consider your word lol. If you only want to be a mathematician then *points to archer forums*.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Scrubby - Heavens Tear wrote: »LoL... more trying to bash me haha
There's no way i'm getting 2 shot like that.. rofl. that's all i have to say lol.
If anyone else would like to point out how stupid this argument is.. lol. The lack of intelligence in this is astounding after what seemed like a rather smart debate. You reduced to trying to bash/troll me.
I've yet to see any parts in any of my videos that I will die from an archer in 2 hits with 17k+ hp lol. When you think of something smart feel free to post until then I'll just stick to debating with negative reaction.
Besides maybe when you feel like posting from a wizard to show that u've played it then maybe I'll consider your word lol. If you only want to be a mathematician then *points to archer forums*.
I have no idea how to put this any more clearly than I already have. You have video EVIDENCE of what I just said, yet you still refute it. There is nothing you can say or do to disprove me, except take down your videos, and were you to do that, there would still be the math staring you in the face.
I'm not saying a DoT wiz is useless. Yes, being two shot with 17k hp could happen, the chances aren't extremely high, but neither are they extremely low. ALL I am saying is that compared to a Jades build, a DoT build is not as useful. I really don't know what else to say. b:sleep0 -
FayHumming - Dreamweaver wrote: »b:chuckleI really dont know you people keep saying wizard getting die in 2shoot. Im sage wizard full dot with 7khp with barb buff close 10khp. I ask r9 archer test their dmg on me, wait only 3.4dmg. b:bye 17k hp wiz can take atless 5-6shoot without charmed/pot.
You do realize that 3.4k damage is 48.5% of your unbuffed hp, correct? That means that, with a 3601 damage hit directly following, you have just been two shot. b:bye0 -
AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »You do realize that 3.4k damage is 48.5% of your unbuffed hp, correct? That means that, with a 3601 damage hit directly following, you have just been two shot. b:bye
Why you in wizard post?
-Do you realize my refine is not +10?
-I dont have Nirva gears & clound rit yet,
-my weapon missing 1more gem
You think archer can pwn wizard lol, If I have same gears archer then see pwn who. Withe survival of the fittest
-Thx all suport sell me SoW for 5M b:thanks tome/ring
!!!SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!0 -
AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »I have no idea how to put this any more clearly than I already have. You have video EVIDENCE of what I just said, yet you still refute it. There is nothing you can say or do to disprove me, except take down your videos, and were you to do that, there would still be the math staring you in the face.
I'm not saying a DoT wiz is useless. Yes, being two shot with 17k hp could happen, the chances aren't extremely high, but neither are they extremely low. ALL I am saying is that compared to a Jades build, a DoT build is not as useful. I really don't know what else to say. b:sleep
u have proof of me playing with full +12 gears? .... lol very nice job on the proof.
go back to your lil noob server rofl0 -
Scrubby - Heavens Tear wrote: »u have proof of me playing with full +12 gears? .... lol very nice job on the proof.
go back to your lil noob server rofl
There is proof of you being hit for 9k crits. Doing simple math, it is a very short walk down logic avenue to understand that you are still a two shot even with 17k HP. And no, a gr.16 neck wont change that much vs 90/100 attack levels.0 -
FayHumming - Dreamweaver wrote: »Why you in wizard post?
-Do you realize my refine is not +10?
-I dont have Nirva gears & clound rit yet,
-my weapon missing 1more gem
You think archer can pwn wizard lol, If I have same gears archer then see pwn who. Wi
Why you in engrish fourum?0 -
AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »Why you in engrish fourum?
b:laugh Why do a archer crying in Wizard post? b:byethe survival of the fittest
-Thx all suport sell me SoW for 5M b:thanks tome/ring
!!!SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!0 -
FayHumming - Dreamweaver wrote: »You think archer can pwn wizard lol, If I have same gears archer then see pwn who. Wi
i really don't like to go the ad hominem route, but seriously, you should not be talking if you think a max geared EA won't beat a max geared mage the majority of the time, crazy mage crit magic aside.
in any case, i'm not sure why people are getting defensive about their own builds. the point isn't to say "lolDoTfail", it's to say that if the same highly skilled and refined player could use two different builds - a full DoT build, and a full Jade build - against similarly skilled and refined opponents in TW, which would perform better?
the full Jade build has enough of a survivability advantage that it can play more aggressively - needing to kite less, able to spend more time attacking, and attacking near the fray where it counts. this, right here, is how a Jade build manages to deal more damage over the course of a TW despite dealing 10.7% less base damage per hit. well, in addition to occasionally not dying as soon as a DoT build (and getting an extra attack off).
certainly in the real world there are plenty of GOOD players using DoT builds and BAD players (sadly) using jade builds. the point of this thread is not to devolve into an argument about players' skill levels though, it's to say which build will suit you better in a competitive TW endgame scenario. "the math" is the only viable way to debate that question, and i think it has provided a firm enough answer to call it more than just "a matter of preference."0 -
gonna get back ingame for that FC bug, lol, looks liek archers and wizards still have their issues, gonna get the rust of my wiz wep____________
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