Archers with BP

LilNai - Harshlands

Chickpea - Lost City wrote: »

BP should not be class restricted at all. It should work on all mele skills + auto attacks, anything else is just lame and stupid. I should be able to get BP on this cleric and auto attack an NPC barehanded and get HP. It would be kinda useless of course, but it would be the most logic way for the skill to work.

But im guessing they give BP to classes with more than 75% mele skills (or something like that).

Archers and venos would both benefit from it in PVE. Its not like those classes are remotely overpowered either, giving them BP would not cause any imbalance really just giving them a little PVE boost. They would still not be invited to NV or any other farming party lol. Not many people plays veno or archer outside of TW these days either.

Just a small point, but you wouldnt recover any hp by beating on an npc with bloodpaint. No damage, no heal.

Additionally, its already bad enough with the amount of Fist Archers there are, do we need more reasons for them to keep using fists? Really? With Bloodpaint + Fists theyed be able to tank about as well as any assassin and would make it even less likely for a debuffer / Cleric to find their way into squad.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

LilNai - Harshlands wrote: »

Just a small point, but you wouldnt recover any hp by beating on an npc with bloodpaint. No damage, no heal.

Additionally, its already bad enough with the amount of Fist Archers there are, do we need more reasons for them to keep using fists? Really? With Bloodpaint + Fists theyed be able to tank about as well as any assassin and would make it even less likely for a debuffer / Cleric to find their way into squad.

You realize the alternative to claw archers, barbs, and venos would just be more BMs and more sins and those are the most overplayed classes already.

LilNai - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

You realize the alternative to claw archers, barbs, and venos would just be more BMs and more sins and those are the most overplayed classes already.

Indeed. But denying them bloodpaint hasnt exactly stopped them so far has it? You gonna reroll if this thread comes to nothing (It will come to nothing) because you dont get BP?

Il keep it like it is thanks.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

LilNai - Harshlands wrote: »

Indeed. But denying them bloodpaint hasnt exactly stopped them so far has it? You gonna reroll if this thread comes to nothing (It will come to nothing) because you dont get BP?

Il keep it like it is thanks.

Lol huh?

LilNai - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lol huh?

As it is, while Archers, Venos, everyone is capable of hitting 4/5APS, they are looked down upon for the most part due to the fact that they largely suck for it.

Give them bloodpaint and they will restat completely off their own weapons. As it is most archers keep as much dex as possible for their bows. Givethem bloodpaint and they would very quickly start dropping to... 300 dex? and maxed out str so they can solo more stuff with a buff.

Id continue but I really cant be bothered. They havent given you the buff, and I hope they never do. Feel free to take Spirits Gift [Intuition] from the melee classes, im sure none of them will give a damn.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

LilNai - Harshlands wrote: »

As it is, while Archers, Venos, everyone is capable of hitting 4/5APS, they are looked down upon for the most part due to the fact that they largely suck for it.

Give them bloodpaint and they will restat completely off their own weapons. As it is most archers keep as much dex as possible for their bows. Givethem bloodpaint and they would very quickly start dropping to... 300 dex? and maxed out str so they can solo more stuff with a buff.

Id continue but I really cant be bothered. They havent given you the buff, and I hope they never do. Feel free to take Spirits Gift [Intuition] from the melee classes, im sure none of them will give a damn.

You live in a strange world not really consistent with reality. But hey this is a fantasy game, enjoy.

LilNai - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

You live in a strange world not really consistent with reality. But hey this is a fantasy game, enjoy.

Will do.

Quilue - Sanctuary

LilNai - Harshlands wrote: »

As it is, while Archers, Venos, everyone is capable of hitting 4/5APS, they are looked down upon for the most part due to the fact that they largely suck for it.

Give them bloodpaint and they will restat completely off their own weapons. As it is most archers keep as much dex as possible for their bows. Givethem bloodpaint and they would very quickly start dropping to... 300 dex? and maxed out str so they can solo more stuff with a buff.

Id continue but I really cant be bothered. They havent given you the buff, and I hope they never do. Feel free to take Spirits Gift [Intuition] from the melee classes, im sure none of them will give a damn.

That's such a dumb claim. WTF do you solo instances and seizure-jerk on bosses at endgame for? It's so you can fund better bows to hit people from range with. No one is going to drop 300 dex to face roll PvE because that would defeat the purpose of farming.

LilNai - Harshlands

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's such a dumb claim. WTF do you solo instances and seizure-jerk on bosses at endgame for? It's so you can fund better bows to hit people from range with. No one is going to drop 300 dex to face roll PvE because that would defeat the purpose of farming.

Cos you know, more efficient farming wont net you the cash to restat pretty much at-will?

Hell I can farm a full restat in a week and im a **** farmer.

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

XFireWolfX - Dreamweaver wrote: »

how come archers cant get BP? many other classes can and not archers? most archers use claw/fist in instances without BP -.-b:angry

Archers don't get BP for the same reason Psychics, clerics, venos(which I actually don't understand), Seekers at long range, Mystics and wizards don't get BP. They have no melee mastery or melee talent (aside from venos).

The majority of their attacks are ranged over 15 meters. the fact that they use claws in instances is simple circumstantial, they don't have to, they choose to, which is contrary to BM's, Barbs, Sin's and melee focused Seekers. Archers are exactly that; individuals who shoot bows and arrows.

If anything Veno's should be held to circumstance because of their melee side, but that would

be off balancing say if they decide to just claw it up in human form.

Can archers use claws/fists? Yes
Can archers use skills with other weapons? Yes
Does this make them a melee class? No.

Any class that gets its primary attack bonuses with it either being melee or magical from a
non-melee weapon doesn't get effected by bp, end of story.

"But a *insert melee class here* can use a *insert magic weapon here* and still get the BP bonus!"

That's because that's their primary form of fighting, if you would rather stand behind a clawric while a Bowbarian pelts away at the enemy and a MBM (magicblademaster) makes a laughing stock of his class be my guest. This is one of the few balancing mechanics this game possesses I'd rather not see it go.

"It's not a balancing feature if you can out heal a cleric with BP!"

You cant out heal a cleric with BP its a very small fraction of healing in comparison to a clerics ability to fully heal you in one maybe two shots

Summer_Blush - Heavens Tear

Cadeal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Archers don't get BP for the same reason Psychics, clerics, venos(which I actually don't understand), Seekers at long range, Mystics and wizards don't get BP. They have no melee mastery or melee talent (aside from venos)

mm funny nor do any casters, but they still get the Phys Str buff from Barbs; why would they ever need that?

BP buff is heavily classist

get a clue before u try to front an argument

Quilue - Sanctuary

LilNai - Harshlands wrote: »

Cos you know, more efficient farming wont net you the cash to restat pretty much at-will?

Hell I can farm a full restat in a week and im a **** farmer.

Then what problem would you have with archers dropping 300 dex if they're going to restat for TW every week?

Cadeal - Dreamweaver

Summer_Blush - Heavens Tear wrote: »

mm funny nor do any casters, but they still get the Phys Str buff from Barbs; why would they ever need that?

BP buff is heavily classist

get a clue before u try to front an argument

Your argument is about a buff that adds phys attack, not a mastery, maybe you should re-read or perhaps learn to do so before you try to disclaim an argument, because you clearly didn't read it clearly or completely.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Cadeal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Your argument is about a buff that adds phys attack, not a mastery, maybe you should re-read or perhaps learn to do so before you try to disclaim an argument, because you clearly didn't read it clearly or completely.

She is pointing out the flaw in your argument.

Your only argument was that only classes with a melee mastery should receive a melee buff. You offer no reason for why this should be the case and you realize that venos would meet this arbitrary criteria.

Your whole point I believe boils down to a notion that classes should only receive buffs that would be useable with their traditional (obsolete) roles. This point is false. She shows this by pointing out the counterexample that a class that has virtually no use at all for physical attack (such as a wiz) is perfectly capable of receiving a physical attack buff from a barb.

You were the one that failed to understand the significance of the counter example.

LilNai - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

She is pointing out the flaw in your argument.

Your only argument was that only classes with a melee mastery should receive a melee buff. You offer no reason for why this should be the case and you realize that venos would meet this arbitrary criteria.

Your whole point I believe boils down to a notion that classes should only receive buffs that would be useable with their traditional (obsolete) roles. This point is false. She shows this by pointing out the counterexample that a class that has virtually no use at all for physical attack (such as a wiz) is perfectly capable of receiving a physical attack buff from a barb.

You were the one that failed to understand the significance of the counter example.

Think, just for a moment. The old barb buff has been like that since day 1. Tideborn come along and suddenly theres a class restricted buff, which is logically restricted to classes with definitive Melee styles. Then you come to Seekers and Mystics in the latest expansion having class restricted weaponry. All of these new changes make perfect sense.

This isnt so much about logic as it is about PWE not changing anything old, only correcting new things in a very imbalanced manner. I mean, noone would give a flying **** if the Barbarian Strength buff and the Cleric Magic Attack Buffs were restricted. No, only archers care about Bloodpaint because they seem to think that fists are normal for them, despite the fact that they clearly are not. (Wether you think archers should have melee skills and blah blah blah doesnt matter. The skills and design are for Bows, nothing else).

Venomancers should get BP, imho, any venomancer worth a damn can effectively use Fox Form and while not life sustaining, Bloodpaint would assist them in their natural roles.

XxZavxX - Raging Tide

This thread is silly...

"melee mastery this... melee mastery that..."

Since when did Barbs ever get Fist Mastery? Barbs weren't designed to be APS machines... yet no one talks about nerfing BP for them for the same reason they say archers shouldn't have bp.

Not that I care really. I gave up the fists for daggers.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

LilNai - Harshlands wrote: »

Think, just for a moment. The old barb buff has been like that since day 1. Tideborn come along and suddenly theres a class restricted buff, which is logically restricted to classes with definitive Melee styles. Then you come to Seekers and Mystics in the latest expansion having class restricted weaponry. All of these new changes make perfect sense.

I don't think it makes 'perfect sense'. Before the tideborn expansion a major feature of PWI was giving everyone freedom to use any gear without being restricted. Just look at how much versatility people have with LA wizards or HA veno.

The new devs just have no clue about the game. They screwed up so hard with the raging tide expansion and they are trying to correct it by adding more restrictions and fewer options.

BMs for example had 4 choices of weapons with R8 but with R9 they can only be axe. R9 venos also lose the ability to choose HA/LA and must restat to AA. The game was better with the original devs who knew the value of fewer restrictions.

LilNai - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think it makes 'perfect sense'. Before the tideborn expansion a major feature of PWI was giving everyone freedom to use any gear without being restricted. Just look at how much versatility people have with LA wizards or HA veno.

The new devs just have no clue about the game. They screwed up so hard with the raging tide expansion and they are trying to correct it by adding more restrictions and fewer options.

BMs for example had 4 choices of weapons with R8 but with R9 they can only be axe. R9 venos also lose the ability to choose HA/LA and must restat to AA. The game was better with the original devs who knew the value of fewer restrictions.

Freedom without limit is hell, APSdominancy taught us that much, dont you think?

I wont disagree that the Raging Tide expansion sucks in a large number of points, nor that the Genesis expansion has limits placed on every corner possible, but I will disagree that the idea behind limiting some of this **** is bad. Its simply the choices they made on what to limit that makes my previous post sound a little... Overly supportive of the PW developers.

"Makes perfect sense" isnt what I should have written. "Shows they have someone, somewhere, trying just a little bit to improve the APS blackhole this game has become, even if the execution of these changes is far from ideal" would have been a better way of getting my point across.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think it makes 'perfect sense'. Before the tideborn expansion a major feature of PWI was giving everyone freedom to use any gear without being restricted. Just look at how much versatility people have with LA wizards or HA veno.

The new devs just have no clue about the game. They screwed up so hard with the raging tide expansion and they are trying to correct it by adding more restrictions and fewer options.

BMs for example had 4 choices of weapons with R8 but with R9 they can only be axe. R9 venos also lose the ability to choose HA/LA and must restat to AA. The game was better with the original devs who knew the value of fewer restrictions.

The freedom we once had while it was, and still nice to some extent, in my honest opinion too many people abused the hell out of it, and now we see just about everyone restating to equip fist/claws, and over 90% of the people who have done it are now considerably suffering due to it, (except when they can just mindless pew pew the instance away) while the other select few, you really can't notice how it affect their power in MASS pve, or mass pvp.

As it was before the earth-guard expansion, it wasn't just archers with the restat for fists/claws, you can still easily see barbarians, archers, and even on the very rare occasion clerics/wizards/venomancers/psychics/even sins, with fists/claws on. (Albeit its rare, I have seen these classes do it)

Things are being farmed way too rapidly, and WAY too many people are using fist/claws to do everything in game, and a lot of the other classes are really suffering due to it. (Don't get me wrong I love the fast runs/kills, but obviously something is out of hand when everyone has aps, and is now requesting it for well over 90% of the instances in game.)

I am not QQing, either because i want the fist/claws all too myself, it would just be nice if less people were doing it, although that is highly unlikely to happen. They tried too hard fixing/balancing the game with new updates, and in a lot of ways they failed, but by restricting the earthguards from using fists/claws, I for one am wholeheartedly ecstatic, now if only they would 'buck' up take the hit that it will have to their pocket books, and do that to other classes. (Which I don't see that happening.) I wouldn't mind fists going to archers, and claws going to bm's. Though I do still say that the argument that if they make fist/claws bms only they should make bows archers only... fails. How often do you see bms/sins, etc switching to bows for bosses? Albeit it is slower aps, it's still not very often you see people using bows on bosses these days, even if boss has an aoe. ;x

I still say neither venomancers, nor archers should get bp, I can't, nor will I try to explain why I feel they shouldn't as most of you are downright determined to get bp so... most of you can mindlessly pew pew the bosses like most sins do, hell even like most bms/barbs do this day and age, not to mention it would be good for you both so that its easier for you to get into those 'coveted' spots in cleric-less nirvana runs.

As I said earlier, and others have pointed out after.. and perhaps even before me... maybe the devs did give bp to only the classes that have well over 75% of their skills that require them to be in melee range, granted fox form venos meet that requirement... but venos still have more then one way to tank/attack/kill bosses/mobs, and even people from a safe range without getting hit.

UMad_Bro - Sanctuary

Everyone seems to be focused on the fact that archers are not a melee class and therefore should not have BP... but ever read the skill description?

Grants a shield to all friendly targets within 10 meters that will absorb 2% of all physical melee damage.

If it was supposed to be based on "melee classes" then venos should get the buff as they even have a melee mastery skill.

ijs

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

UMad_Bro - Sanctuary wrote: »

Everyone seems to be focused on the fact that archers are not a melee class and therefore should not have BP... but ever read the skill description?



If it was supposed to be based on "melee classes" then venos should get the buff as they even have a melee mastery skill.

ijs

To be honest I think it's badly worded, I think it is actually meant for classes who do a majority of their attacks/skills... when used... up close and personal, (that really does sound... funky) that is what I, and others are trying to get at.... at least I believe so, and not meant for all physical damage, if that was the case, I think all classes should/would get it, as every class can go up to a boss/mob and attack it with fists, though it really isn't wise for half of the classes to go up to bosses/mobs and attack with just their fists, and no weapon on.

Despite archers, and venos, both having 'skills' that require them to be up close and personal, it is still so few that it should be a pretty insignificant skill to have... bp... though with the pew pew fest the game has become, archers, venos, and every other class feels that their is a geniune need for it, and that they somehow 'deserve' to have bp just like bms, barbs, sin, and seekers. (I am not saying you all don't deserve it or anything, but as I and other have been trying to point out... an archer, and veno both have more then one way of attacking/killing mobs/bosses then just pew pew up close. ;X

In short, neither a venomancer, nor archer, truly needs bp, they shouldn't have aggro anyways on a boss, be a smart dd, and if your stealing aggro from the tank, then back off, so you don't die. xD

Not to mention I think if it was suddenly changed to include archers and venos, I think this craze would be 10x worse, and we would see even less wizards, psychics, mystics, and even clerics in squads.

LilNai - Harshlands

UMad_Bro - Sanctuary wrote: »

Everyone seems to be focused on the fact that archers are not a melee class and therefore should not have BP... but ever read the skill description?



If it was supposed to be based on "melee classes" then venos should get the buff as they even have a melee mastery skill.

ijs

If you want to talk of skill descriptions, re-read that.

"Grants a shield to all friendly targets within 10 meters that will absorb 2% of all physical melee damage. "

It would indicate it takes 2% of all incoming melee damage. That is, it nullifies it.

"Cast a shield on a target to absorb a portion of their incoming damage" - Wings of Protection, Cleric.

"If own HP is lower than 50% of its maximum, a magic shield will be summoned wich will absorb at most 2000 magic damage." - Bestial Rage, Barbarian

http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php

Dont use the descriptions to argue anything, they fail, hardcore.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Those descriptions aren't merely implying what you say they are, they are just left too ambiguous and not localized well enough, allowing a person who reads it their own way to interpret it in that fashion.

However, given veno's were obviously intended to be melee classes too and deal physical damage it makes sense that at very least they can receive BP, and perhaps archers as well.

LilNai - Harshlands

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Those descriptions aren't merely implying what you say they are, they are just left too ambiguous and not localized well enough, allowing a person who reads it their own way to interpret it in that fashion.

Precisely. Until people know how it works however, they would suspect it was incoming damage, you dont expect to absorb damage you deal. Its simply an example of pathetic skill descriptions, hence why you cannot use them to justify these points.

However, given veno's were obviously intended to be melee classes too and deal physical damage it makes sense that at very least they can receive BP, and perhaps archers as well.

Venomancers, yes, Archers, never. Not until they give Archers a melee based skilltree, and I mean melee, not close-range.

Traz - Dreamweaver

XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »

This thread is silly...

"melee mastery this... melee mastery that..."

Since when did Barbs ever get Fist Mastery? Barbs weren't designed to be APS machines... yet no one talks about nerfing BP for them for the same reason they say archers shouldn't have bp.

Not that I care really. I gave up the fists for daggers.

I'm convinced you were dropped on your head as a baby...since when are barb's axes/hammers ranged? Oh wait they aren't, but archer's main weapon are. Have a nice day moron. b:bye

XxZavxX - Raging Tide

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm convinced you were dropped on your head as a baby...since when are barb's axes/hammers ranged? Oh wait they aren't, but archer's main weapon are. Have a nice day moron. b:bye

Are you an idiot? I am pretty sure you are.

Barbs getting BP while using fists =/= Barbs using axes/hammers = same thing as archers using fists (neither class were intended to use fists).

Let me know when your cognitive skills approach that of an ape so you can actually communicate on any intelligible level.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm convinced you were dropped on your head as a baby...since when are barb's axes/hammers ranged? Oh wait they aren't, but archer's main weapon are. Have a nice day moron. b:bye

Wow, rage much? The reason archers are compared to barbs is that neither have an actual passive dedicated to fists/claw -- has nothing to do with being ranged genius.

Both have buffs, however, that supplement the damage, albeit not completely. I guess that's why, LilNai, I'm not opposed to archers receiving BP.

LilNai - Harshlands

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Wow, rage much? The reason archers are compared to barbs is that neither have an actual passive dedicated to fists/claw -- has nothing to do with being ranged genius.

Both have buffs, however, that supplement the damage, albeit not completely. I guess that's why, LilNai, I'm not opposed to archers receiving BP.

I still stand by the fact that barbs get plenty out of BP with their own skills, using axes, grants them "legitimate" (For want of a better description) access to bloodpaint. I have played Barbs a little bit, the damage they deal can be impressive despite their slow attack rate. Bloodpaint heals them hugely off of AoEs and with normal style tanking it supplements healing very well. The fact that it carries over to fists is an unfortunate coincidence.

Archers on the other hand, have absolutely no reason to use Fists except for the broken game mechanics that let them DD better with Fists than their Bows. The lack of Bloodpaint is one of the few things that dissuade people from using Fists on archers. I would personally prefer there to be more.

That aside, much as I personally dislike the idea, if Archers ever got access to their logical melee weapon (Daggers), with skills and hopefully mastery too, I would no longer oppose the idea they should receive the Bloodpaint buff.

Traz - Dreamweaver

XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »

Are you an idiot? I am pretty sure you are.

Barbs getting BP while using fists =/= Barbs using axes/hammers = same thing as archers using fists (neither class were intended to use fists).

Let me know when your cognitive skills approach that of an ape so you can actually communicate on any intelligible level.

Who gives a **** about fists, BP discrimination isn't based on who may go and use fists, it's all based on main weapons. We have axe and hammer mastery and *gasp* use them melee that's why we get bp. Archer's use bows from range and you will never get bp as a result, deal with it. b:bye

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

LilNai - Harshlands wrote: »

Archers on the other hand, have absolutely no reason to use Fists except for the broken game mechanics that let them DD better with Fists than their Bows. The lack of Bloodpaint is one of the few things that dissuade people from using Fists on archers. I would personally prefer there to be more.

Lack of BP on archer just makes more archers reroll to sins. That's part of why you see so many sins. Making BP freely available would be a sin nerf and this game is in desperate need of fewer sins.

Are all the people in favor of more class restrictions also in favor of making casters class locked into wearing AA? How about BMs unable to use LA or unable to use bows?