Archers with BP

XFireWolfX - Dreamweaver

how come archers cant get BP? many other classes can and not archers? most archers use claw/fist in instances without BP -.-b:angry

Sir_Puma - Raging Tide

Archers are suppose to be a long distance class and BP put on someone staying safe from a distance and healing himself with BP = NO

Game is messed up allowing them to use fists/claws witch even shoudn't be.

It would be like giving BP (or someone equivalent) to casters so that they could heal a certain % with each magic damage...Again, a big NO..

Tricannon - Dreamweaver

Yea give archers BP oh and while your at it i would like a God of Frenzy bow plz ^^

Dralighte - Harshlands

there's already a topic about that

Archers are suppose to be a long distance class and BP put on someone staying safe from a distance and healing himself with BP = NO

Game is messed up allowing them to use fists/claws witch even shoudn't be.

It would be like giving BP (or someone equivalent) to casters so that they could heal a certain % with each magic damage...Again, a big NO..

+1

OontzOontz - Dreamweaver

The devs shot themselves in the foot by making bp. They could be making so much more money with charms. No way they're giving bp to anyone else now. b:laugh

Gin_Tenshi - Lost City

but lol sins can use bows, granted they don't get the reach archers do but they can still use them and get 20m range why can't archers get 1.33% normal bp and 2% sage bp. if we are going to nit pick at archers being able to use claws, then no other class should be able to use bows. neway i doubt gms are going to change it so that archers can get bp ever. so moot point. and also i think the op was talking about bp only wokring for melee skills not for bows.

Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear

Gin_Tenshi - Lost City wrote: »

but lol sins can use bows, granted they don't get the reach archers do but they can still use them and get 20m range why can't archers get 1.33% normal bp and 2% sage bp. if we are going to nit pick at archers being able to use claws, then no other class should be able to use bows. neway i doubt gms are going to change it so that archers can get bp ever. so moot point. and also i think the op was talking about bp only wokring for melee skills not for bows.

Archers also tend to deal much higher damage using bows than sins do, so they'd get more back from it.

I wouldn't really mind if it were just for melee, though.

truekossy

BP only applies to melee regardless of what weapon you use. If archers were allowed to be buffed with BP, bow damage wouldn't matter because it would only come into play with melee.

Or have you folks immediately jumping against it not noticed that when a sin is buffed with BP and uses a bow, they don't get any HP back?

Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear

truekossy wrote: »

BP only applies to melee regardless of what weapon you use. If archers were allowed to be buffed with BP, bow damage wouldn't matter because it would only come into play with melee.

Or have you folks immediately jumping against it not noticed that when a sin is buffed with BP and uses a bow, they don't get any HP back?

I haven't b:avoid

Which would still work against giving archers bp, since they are intended to use bows (regardless of the current state of the game)... so giving them a buff that has absolutely no effect on how they're supposed to be played seems kind of pointless, from a dev's perspective.

Venos, on the other hand..

truekossy

Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I haven't b:avoid

Which would still work against giving archers bp, since they are intended to use bows (regardless of the current state of the game)... so giving them a buff that has absolutely no effect on how they're supposed to be played seems kind of pointless, from a dev's perspective.

Venos, on the other hand..

I see your point and counter with frostblade being a wizard buff (cause those guys totally melee often) and spirit's gift/arcane empowerment being buffs that work on all classes when only half of the classes in the game benefit from it. From a development standpoint, it's actually more of a pain to make something specifically exclude certain things than it is to simply have it include them all but work as intended (IE: casters wouldn't get healed while casting, but if they whacked a mob for chi or whatever it'd work for them). Besides, it's not like archers weren't already using low level fists at times for the sake of either damage mitigation or to get around that annoying close-range damage penalty bows have from back when MP was a slightly more valid concern.


... And completely agree with you on venos. It's bad enough that they lost swimming mastery while barbs got to keep it for some unexplained reason (shouldn't cats hate water?). Having no access to bloodpaint while having an entire tree DEVOTED to melee, though? Makes you kinda wonder where to get some of whatever the devs are smoking.

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

I have to agree it would make sense for veno's to get it. But archers's nah.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

I would make BP just itself cast. No party buff. This party buff is another fail. It making game VERY,VERY,VERY easy for melee characters and putting even cleric behind. I'm wondering why this game has still magic classes.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Well I for one appreciate the magic attack buff I get from clerics. Even though I can't use it I appreciate the thoughtfulness of them wanting to buff me. Thank you so much clerics!


Now when it comes to sins, **** you guys and your crappy racist buff!

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well I for one appreciate the magic attack buff I get from clerics. Even though I can't use it I appreciate the thoughtfulness of them wanting to buff me. Thank you so much clerics!

Now when it comes to sins, **** you guys and your crappy racist buff!

Then again, if Archers could get Bloodpaint, they'd be pretty overpowering. For one, Archers have the cheapest 5 aps, and arguably one of the better Rank 9s. Considering that an Archer can easily get 5 aps which wearing most of their Rank 9, I'd hate to see how ridiculous it'd be to have an Archer with Rank 9 armors refined to +10 an sharded with 2 JoSD's.

I know that if an Archer could get BP, I'd probably buy an account stash right there and then, put all of my gear on my Archer, level him up to 100 and get him GV and Rank 8.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

It's not that archers are disallowed Bloodpaint.

It's that archers are elegant individuals who do NOT PAINT THEIR FACES WITH BLOOD. We do not want use a buff from a race that hasn't fully evolved from their primordial soup origins.

Decus - Dreamweaver

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It's not that archers are disallowed Bloodpaint.

It's that archers are elegant individuals who do NOT PAINT THEIR FACES WITH BLOOD. We do not want use a buff from a race that hasn't fully evolved from their primordial soup origins.

^ This.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then again, if Archers could get Bloodpaint, they'd be pretty overpowering. For one, Archers have the cheapest 5 aps, and arguably one of the better Rank 9s. Considering that an Archer can easily get 5 aps which wearing most of their Rank 9, I'd hate to see how ridiculous it'd be to have an Archer with Rank 9 armors refined to +10 an sharded with 2 JoSD's.

I know that if an Archer could get BP, I'd probably buy an account stash right there and then, put all of my gear on my Archer, level him up to 100 and get him GV and Rank 8.

Any cheap archer 5.0 setup can be used as a cheap sin 5.0 setup at the same cost so you cant say archer is OP because it is cheaper. If you wanna talk R9, barbs have the same amount of int on armor and can get blood paint fine... despite people feeling they are not "supposed" to be a mellee DD class.

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Any archer 5.0 setup can be used as a sin 5.0 setup so you cant say archer is OP because it is cheaper. If you wanna talk R9 barbs have the same amount of int on armor and can get blood paint fine... despite them not "supposed" to be a mellee DD class.

No1 will accept a pathetic sin with fists/claws in their squad, this just to get more int has

become re tarded, assassins r the most expensive class to reach 5.0 using daggers, people

were skeptical about archers using fists/claws also but now it`s recognized as a norm, only

way I`d support BP on archers if they use the previously mentioned fists/claws not a bow, BP

doesn't work also when an assassin is using a bow.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

I have never been a fan of fist/claw archers, and since I started delta, hate them even more, get back to bows, and do some actual damage. Plox

I would say I agree with those that say if the make fist/claws for bm only, then they should make bows for archers only... well there's a big difference between how often people switch to bows for something... and not be an archer... compared to how often archers switch to and use fist/claws to kill things. So no, they do NOT need bp, get back to your original builds for your classes, and start doing some real damage. An archers skill/real damage comes from being able to use their skills/normal attacks with a bow. Some archers who are pure build, do far better holding aggro from 3.33/5.00 sparked bms, then bms do themselves. =X

(I do realize what I say will fall on deaf ears as just about every archer who still calls their archer their main will go fist/claw build, just to kill bosses/get into just about any instance, which I still say if you want to go tanking bosses, roll a sin, or bm, and start getting some survivability to do bosses. Though barb's are just as bad as archers for going fist/claw, some are still pretty decent at their job, likewise for archers, but really just stay with the weapons that were meant for your class, no matter how much the status quo begs you to go fist build, as I said earlier, roll a sin, or bm, be different and keep your barb, archer, and even you sins (albeit very few sins go fist/claw builds, there still are a few sins who choose aps, over more strength/survivability with their daggers.) to their original builds, you will be surprised how much easier it is on everyone... when your in rebirth delta anyways.)

As for the venos getting bp, really? After a quick glance at their skills they are only melee when they are in fox from, not to mention most bosses aoe, and are physical damage when they do so, and if your a normal veno build with arcane armor, what the **** are you doing by the boss anyways? Let your summons do the work for you, after all with some pets you were able to solo long before sin, and even bms came into the soloing picture. Granted its not cheap, not easy to do, unless you know what your doing. I am not trying to be... blunt with my opinion about venos not getting bp, but really, it would be asinine to think any veno that isn't an unorthodox build, could even stay in fox form, or even close enough to the bosses to even benefit from bp. =x


NOTE: I am not saying all the other class who go fist/claws are complete fails at their class, but I can't count how many people have totally destroyed what their class was meant to be/do by trying to adapt to the status quo of the servers/game, and in SOME cases, have pretty much screwed over how well they are able to play that class, again not all are fails, but a majority of them have become fails/severely limited what their class should be capable of doing without a problem.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Really though fists and hammers are not even bladed weapons so it doesn't make sense for blademasters to be able to wield them. Maybe in a future patch they will make hammers barb-only and fists archer-only?

Saying that a 5.0 archer does less damage in delta is a terrible example considering how little 25 dex would matter relative to the weapon damage bonus you get from the attack aura in there (dex doesn't improve the bonus at all).

Again any "cheap" 5.0 archer setup has an equally cheap equivalent 5.0 sin setup since they have the same rank gear and would both do similar damage. You can't just deny that sins can get a cheap 5.0 setup when they have access to all the same gear as an archer. Some sins embrace claws fully and get 5.0 chill of deep allowing them to do more damage with claws than any other class.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Really though fists and hammers are not even bladed weapons so it doesn't make sense for blademasters to be able to wield them. Maybe in a future patch they will make hammers barb-only and fists archer-only?

Saying that a 5.0 archer does less damage in delta is a terrible example considering how little 25 dex would matter relative to the weapon damage bonus you get from the attack aura in there (dex doesn't improve the bonus at all).

Again any "cheap" 5.0 archer setup has an equally cheap equivalent 5.0 sin setup since they have the same rank gear and would both do similar damage. You can't just deny that sins can get a cheap 5.0 setup when they have access to all the same gear as an archer. Some sins embrace claws fully and get 5.0 chill of deep allowing them to do more damage with claws than any other class.

What about poles? There's poleblades and polehammers, and both are the same weapon type. Who gets those, barb or BM? b:shocked

And meh... I still want a GoF bow.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Would still be nice though I guess. I think Venomancers should have been able to get BP, too. We're hybrid, not an 100% Mage class. We do melee, too.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Really though fists and hammers are not even bladed weapons so it doesn't make sense for blademasters to be able to wield them. Maybe in a future patch they will make hammers barb-only and fists archer-only?

the flat cutting part of a sword, knife, etc.

Taking from google definition, axes definitely fit that category, but fists do not; however, claws do, or at least the decides do. =x

Sorry ast, I failed, you are right, fists, and hammers don't fit the category of 'blademasters' unless you want to count the rear end of the modern day hammer (with 2 spike on back)... honestly my history is foggy there when it comes to when this hammer came out. =x Though even then its a push to get it to cut anything. ;x lol


Saying that a 5.0 archer does less damage in delta is a terrible example considering how little 25 dex would matter relative to the weapon damage bonus you get from the attack aura in there (dex doesn't improve the bonus at all).

really is that so? All the squads I have been in before auras are set... archers who have chosen not to use fist/claws, kill significantly faster/more smoothly than any fist/claw build archer in there, even when auras are set but as I said earlier, not all fist/claw build archers suck in delta, but I do notice a difference in how fast mobs die even with auras up when... their is a fist/claw build archer vs a true built archer.

Bah again I misread it, while it is true that dex doesn't improve with the auras, that extra dex, that pure archers gets, helps out damage fist/claw archers in deltas, by a significant amount, (or at least it seems so to me) enough for me to notice how... annoying it is with fist/claw build in there.

Again any "cheap" 5.0 archer setup has an equally cheap equivalent 5.0 sin setup since they have the same rank gear and would both do similar damage. You can't just deny that sins can get a cheap 5.0 setup when they have access to all the same gear as an archer. Some sins embrace claws fully and get 5.0 chill of deep allowing them to do more damage with claws than any other class.

I wont deny, that sins have easy access to aps gear, nor did I say that they didn't in my previous post; however, they still have way more pwnage abilities when they just stick to their original path with daggers.

Quite francly I am indeed tired of seeing so many people with fists/claws, as I said earlier just stick with the original path of your class, it does help a lot if thing go a little awry for the squad, no other class can use skills with fist/claws on, thus severely limiting not only what they can do themself, but as well as hurting others in squad whether its them using a skill to nerf the boss a bit, or kill mobs a whole lot faster.

I for one would rather see/hear of an archer critting for 10k+ each (rather every otherish) hit, than seeing/hearing of an archer only hitting 8k per hit, almost never critting... with a bow/xbow/slingshot on. (THESE ARE NOT EXACT NUMBERS, I do NOT know how much they actually hit, I just go off of what I see in delta's/any place where there's more then one mob to kill with BOA/aoes. xD) It is undoubtedly true that people with more strength hit harder, but the stronger hits from crit's add up a whole lot faster, albeit there isn't that many places where it is vital that you kill mobs as fast as possible.

Though again don't let me change your's, nor their build, I for one will be avoiding them for full deltas, most of them anyways. ;x (fist/claw archers) Besides at least if they are pure built, they can still crit/do a bit more damage then the fist/claw archers do when mobs are right on top of the archer. =x (Half damage really does suck, when they are up close)

EDIT: if that bit wasn't meant for me, I am sorry, I am tired writing, and editing this post, not sure where you meant to comment to the sin, me, someone else, or a combination of the three. =x

(replies in quote) xD

I ama 5 char it, =x

Edit: Poleblades to bms... polehammers to barbs. =O

Empu - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Again any "cheap" 5.0 archer setup has an equally cheap equivalent 5.0 sin setup since they have the same rank gear and would both do similar damage. You can't just deny that sins can get a cheap 5.0 setup when they have access to all the same gear as an archer. Some sins embrace claws fully and get 5.0 chill of deep allowing them to do more damage with claws than any other class.

I think he means an archer can be 5 aps sage with the +10def lvl bonus from r9, or in case of demon with even more r9 gear (or warsong/cube ornaments). Archers have a -0.05 int on leggings, which sins don't have. And Barbs don't have acces to a rank top with -int.

Anyway, I never understood why archers and venos don't benefit from bp. Not like there are still "archers" in the game. They are all "clawchers", or winged bms, that occasionally remember they got a bow. Last fun moment was in fcc, where the archer lured harpies down to "aps them to dead" b:laugh

Abstractive - Archosaur

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

the archer lured harpies down to "aps them to dead" b:laugh

What the hell is this...? Stupidity should give people cancer.

Empu - Sanctuary

Abstractive - Archosaur wrote: »

What the hell is this...? Stupidity should give people cancer.

Maybe it was because only me (cleric) and she were ranged classes with up to date ranged damage weap (sin had tt70 and bm 50s bow). But I still found it horribly funny.

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver

Is kinda odd that Archer don't get Bloodpaint. Heck, they even have a tree of skills useable with ANY weapon equipped, and some of them are Melee skills (usually used with a bow, but still MELEE SKILLS). So, even using their skills and designed weapons they have some skills where BP should apply.

LadyofReal - Heavens Tear

My two cents:

Every other MMO I have played before PW that included a ranger type class, i.e. archer, gave that class a close range weapon, usually daggers, for close quartered combat scenarios. Granted that the close range weapon was no where near as powerful as the bow, it was still provided to the rangers.

My archer is my main; I use deicide claws, but my base strength is 104. I have to wear a **** ton of gear to gather the strength needed for that weapon. I am not a claw build archer and use my bow 95% of the time and only switch to the claws for close quarter combat.

Do I think that archers should be able to benefit from the Bloodpaint buff? ONLY in melee range. As for sins, the buff should render itself useless when the archer switched back to ranged damage. We're squishy enough as it is, and sometimes cleric heals are not enough. I also think that venos who use foxform should be able to benefit from the buff as well; and, like the archer, the buff would be useless if they started casting.

I also think that if the buff cannot be used by every class that utilizes melee attacks, then the weaponry in game should be restricted to the classes that they were originally designed for. That way we would not have any claw built archers, barbs, or venos; but that would cut into the profits for PWI, so I doubt that that would happen anytime soon.

Oh, and any archer who uses claws for a RB Delta should be shot. We're brought there for a reason dammit; serve the role or GTFO.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

This is just a theory, but imo it does make sense, perhaps the reason, venomancers, and archers, do not get the benefits of bp, is due to the fact that a majority of their skills come from being away from the mobs, and bosses.

If you look at the classes that do get to use Bloodpaint, a huge majority of their skills can only be used up close, and personal right on top of the mob/boss. Albeit the venomancer skills in fox form all require you to be up close, with the exception of amplify, and purge, the point still remains, the classes that get to use BP, well over 3/4th of their skills have to be used when your in the face of a mob/boss, their is no ranged attacks for a sin, save a few ranged skills with their class weapon on, not to mention most classes who can use bp can't rival the range of an archer/mage, and attack from a safe distance with a bow.

There truly is more to this game, then the pew pew fest that it has become, every class that has become a fist/claw build, has seem to either neglect, forgotten, or just plain doesn't give a hoot one way of the other how much they suck/can't kill with their original weapon on. Albeit the status quo has pretty much made sure of that, 5.0 or gtfo ftfl! =x

EDIT: Please note, I am fully aware that you get the most benefit from going mindless pew pew on the mobs with BP; however, that still doesn't change the fact that there truly is more to this game then mindless pew pew. =X (Which is as I said before) xD

On another note, that is what I meant, when LadyofReal said, an archer is brought into RB delta for a reason, to pwn as many mobs as possible before the next wave comes in, keep your bow on,(if there is a 2-3 mobs/boss only left and you want to switch to fist to fist THEN and THEN ONLY, than by all means go ahead) your BOA up, and a far enough distance that you are actually killing/doing damage to mobs, and not letting 10+ of them live until the next set of mobs come in, plox! =x You are a dd after all, help kill ALL mobs first, then go mindless pew pew on single mobs when its safe to do so. The object of RB is.. or should be... to kill every single mob before the next set of mobs gets pulled in by the barb, and sometimes even bm.

Chickpea - Lost City

BP should not be class restricted at all. It should work on all mele skills + auto attacks, anything else is just lame and stupid. I should be able to get BP on this cleric and auto attack an NPC barehanded and get HP. It would be kinda useless of course, but it would be the most logic way for the skill to work.

But im guessing they give BP to classes with more than 75% mele skills (or something like that).

Archers and venos would both benefit from it in PVE. Its not like those classes are remotely overpowered either, giving them BP would not cause any imbalance really just giving them a little PVE boost. They would still not be invited to NV or any other farming party lol. Not many people plays veno or archer outside of TW these days either.

Gin_Tenshi - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Really though fists and hammers are not even bladed weapons so it doesn't make sense for blademasters to be able to wield them. Maybe in a future patch they will make hammers barb-only and fists archer-only?

Saying that a 5.0 archer does less damage in delta is a terrible example considering how little 25 dex would matter relative to the weapon damage bonus you get from the attack aura in there (dex doesn't improve the bonus at all).

Again any "cheap" 5.0 archer setup has an equally cheap equivalent 5.0 sin setup since they have the same rank gear and would both do similar damage. You can't just deny that sins can get a cheap 5.0 setup when they have access to all the same gear as an archer. Some sins embrace claws fully and get 5.0 chill of deep allowing them to do more damage with claws than any other class.

^point..bms are just over protective of their claws/fist. ik i hate it when i see my bow on every other archer in pwi, but i am taking steps to change that, and so should bms since they hate seeing every other class using claws maybe they should stop using them and go spear build. so few bms in comparison use spears, and so they'd rarely get a chance to complain about seeing it on another class. bms are also just jealous of the cheater top. =D