Sage and Demon discussion

Ragrog - Sanctuary

Yes, this again. b:shocked

I have a wizard and within a few days, it will be 89 and even though I stared at Ecatomb for about three hours and read through 4 pages of the wizard forums and playing with pwi calculator I still can't choose a path. If I go with a -chan demon, I can get around -40% base channeling. If I go sage, I'm planning on a more DPH build and maybe some +crit.

I honestly don't know too much about how wizards work, but it seems like a fun class and want to try it more. Could we please discuss Demon and Sage's positives and negatives?

If it helps, I'm going to be doing a lot of BH and FB runs with other guild members and some pk, maybe TT as well. If the guild gets big enough, some TW. Also I'm planning on leveling slowly so I can save some cash for endgame gear and decent refines.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Ragrog - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, this again. b:shocked

I have a wizard and within a few days, it will be 89 and even though I stared at Ecatomb for about three hours and read through 4 pages of the wizard forums and playing with pwi calculator I still can't choose a path. If I go with a -chan demon, I can get around -40% base channeling. If I go sage, I'm planning on a more DPH build and maybe some +crit.

I honestly don't know too much about how wizards work, but it seems like a fun class and want to try it more. Could we please discuss Demon and Sage's positives and negatives?

If it helps, I'm going to be doing a lot of BH and FB runs with other guild members and some pk, maybe TT as well. If the guild gets big enough, some TW. Also I'm planning on leveling slowly so I can save some cash for endgame gear and decent refines.

IF demon has +5% more damage from masteries I would go demon for sure. Demon is much better in PvP. I played both same wizards on private server and I like demon very much for controlling skills in PVP with lower grade and refines gear servers. But here with highly refined R9 weapon is already damage output difference between demon and sage is big. Sage has thanks to 5% more damage, quite a big advantage over demon. Especially with ultimates. Demon is very nice to controlling opponent but I'm not sure if his DPH is enough to pass charm. As I said if demon would have +5% from masteries not sage, I would go definitely with demon. Also - channeling increase is very, very nice especially with demon Wellspring Quaff. That's my opinion.

Lenestro - Sanctuary

You should go for a DPH/+crit build regardless of your culti, your a wizard.

Adroit - Lost City

The cultivations are very well balanced imo, so you can't really go wrong either way. Sage is essentially a chi factory.. where it feels like your chi bar goes up effortlessly while you play. Between half cost ds, chance for extra chi on pyro, chance for ultis to only cost one spark, and master li's free 50chi every minute.. sage has a huge advantage in chi building over demon. I've heard some people say sage is "just chi", and make it sound like it's not important.. but I think that is very misleading. Wizards in general are devastating with chi.. mainly our ultis and sutra, but that is how we take down opponents (regardless of cultivation).

Demon has its own perks, several skills have less channeling which means some of our longer channeling skills are more usable in pvp, and aids in kiting by not being stuck in the same place as long (channeling does NOT magically make us a high DPS class). Demon also has slightly better control skills and higher base pdef and crit.

Now I don't care how bad I explained it, in practice both cultivations are very well balanced. People will often make the mistake of counting the number of advantages for both, which will never give you an accurate comparison. You need to think about how everything works together and what is actually important. When I watch/pvp against demon mages.. they are still using chi just like anyone else, but they often times have to build it differently. Where sage chi building is almost passive (effortless might be a better word), demon really has to use all their tricks (control skills, better survivability, etc) buying time while they build it. I'm going to say this one more time.. both cultivations are balanced, it is all about your play style and personal preference. There is not a right or wrong choice, just make sure you utilize the advantages of whatever cultivation you end up choosing.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

The cultivations are very well balanced imo, so you can't really go wrong either way.

People used to say this and I used to say "gee, thanks for the help" because it basically says nothing helpful to someone trying to decide what used to be an irreversible choice.

So, when anyone used to ask me, I would say sage, no contest, for the reasons that many have already said on other threads (chi, sage bids, masteries, etc.)

But now, being able to reverse your path from sage to demon and back again, with confirmation that demon masteries stack (or, at least, more evidence than has every been present before to the point that I, eternal skeptic and proponent of sage wizards, am convinced), but more importantly with cheap rank 8 and available (if not cheap) rank 9, it really makes some of the biggest "old" benefits of sage over demon (sage masteries and the increased 1 shot potential of sage bids) irrelevant. Demon wizards with +10 rank 8 and certainly with rank 9 can 1 shot virtually just as much as a sage wizard with the same gear. On the very hardest of targets? Sure, maybe a slight edge to sage. But for the vast majority of cases?

I would still give a slight edge to sage in TW, and a more than slight edge to demon for 1 vs 1 or small group pk. So if you know you like one of those better than the other, there's your answer.

But if you really aren't sure? I would look at what books are more available/cheaper in the auction house and just go with that, and not worry that somehow you are making a big mistake. Because no matter what you choose now, you aren't.

thumbs

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

I would still give a slight edge to sage in TW, and a more than slight edge to demon for 1 vs 1 or small group pk. So if you know you like one of those better than the other, there's your answer.

Without reviewing all the ins and outs; I think this sums up basically why I made my decision. If I want 1-1 DD; I just go on Assassin. Sage seemed better for MP management as well.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

uhm if you want MP management go demon and run around in demon water shield
using Armor sharded with +MP and demon spark all the time :L


MP is such a nonfactor
you have a mp bar of at least 10k mp without quaff, mp food is dirt cheap, i dont even bother using quaff or changing to a shield other than stone barrier


quaff is awesome for the sweet 20% channeling - if demon




uhm to say it

the perfect cultivation would have all demon 89 and 92 skills
sage bids, bt and demon ms
and sage chi gain + sage spark


but - yeah you cant have it all - so pick wisely
currently im in a favoring-sage phase again since i want a genie without Cloud Eruption- that would be fatal for me as a demon t.t

negativereaction

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

with confirmation that demon masteries stack (or, at least, more evidence than has every been present before to the point that I, eternal skeptic and proponent of sage wizards, am convinced),

they do not, and to be honest i've grown tired of correcting this misinformation.

anyhow, what amour said is the polite way to phrase it, as a choice based on players' preferences.

i will take the more blunt approach (for variety's sake) and say that, while demon is naturally "better" at some things - some good -channel boosts, the stun on rock fall, being able to outrange other classes with a sutra'd mountain press - for most things that any endgame PvP-oriented player should care about, sage is far better.

if you are in a prolonged fight with and against several players, or particularly in TW where you might expect to die every so often and need to get your chi back for your 2spark skills, sage almost beats demon on master li's alone. never mind the fact that two of your 2sparks only cost 1.5sparks on average, and that your third one can trigger a tide-turning crit boost for mowing down cata barbs (or any decently geared player). or that distance shrink costs 10 chi, or that pyrogram gets you 21 chi on average.

mages burn chi like crazy, and while it can be partially compensated for with apothecary pots, you're also wasting other apothecary pots that you can't use in cooldown. go sage - master li, the 3 masteries and 3 two-spark skills alone should seal the deal. there are other skill comparisons in favor of sage, and some in favor of demon, but the reality is that unless you want to "try something different," go with what's most useful in most endgame situations.

Adroit - Lost City

negativereaction wrote: »

they do not, and to be honest i've grown tired of correcting this misinformation.

anyhow, what amour said is the polite way to phrase it, as a choice based on players' preferences.

i will take the more blunt approach (for variety's sake) and say that, while demon is naturally "better" at some things - some good -channel boosts, the stun on rock fall, being able to outrange other classes with a sutra'd mountain press - for most things that any endgame PvP-oriented player should care about, sage is far better.

if you are in a prolonged fight with and against several players, or particularly in TW where you might expect to die every so often and need to get your chi back for your 2spark skills, sage almost beats demon on master li's alone. never mind the fact that two of your 2sparks only cost 1.5sparks on average, and that your third one can trigger a tide-turning crit boost for mowing down cata barbs (or any decently geared player). or that distance shrink costs 10 chi, or that pyrogram gets you 21 chi on average.

mages burn chi like crazy, and while it can be partially compensated for with apothecary pots, you're also wasting other apothecary pots that you can't use in cooldown. go sage - master li, the 3 masteries and 3 two-spark skills alone should seal the deal. there are other skill comparisons in favor of sage, and some in favor of demon, but the reality is that unless you want to "try something different," go with what's most useful in most endgame situations.

XAlukardx - Harshlands

I'm pretty sure there was some wiz who took all his stuff off and had the stacked crit with the masteries. had like 4% base with no dex, though i could be mistaken because its been a while now

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

negativereaction wrote: »

they [demon masteries] do not, and to be honest i've grown tired of correcting this misinformation.

I think I clearly left room for debate on that point, if you are so inclined. However, and I forget which, but one of the patches in the last several months apparently altered the way demon masteries show up with eye of observation. The only reason I can think of for that being changed is because they do, in fact, stack. [Edit: see Adroit's post above. I just did. If he and I actually agree? The smart money says its probably correct. Not that they ABSOLUTELY stack, but what I said originally: the weight of the evidence available supports concluding that they do, in fact, stack.]

Also, as far as I know, all the "chicken killing" trials most often cited as reason for them NOT stacking were, to my knowledge, done prior this change. But go ahead, have another chicken holocaust and post your results here.

Till then, while I allow (and did allow in my original post) for people to believe that they don't stack, I was stating my personal opinion that the weight of evidence currently seems to me to support the conclusion that they do. And your fatique notwithstanding, you've presented no evidence (let alone proof) to lead me (or anyone else) to a contrary conclusion.

negativereaction wrote: »

if you are in a prolonged fight with and against several players, or particularly in TW where you might expect to die every so often and need to get your chi back for your 2spark skills, sage almost beats demon on master li's alone.

I think I said sage for tw and larger group pvp (assume thats what you mean by "several" players). So I am not sure what your comment it directed at. We agree. I decline your invitation to be a straw man, sir.

negativereaction wrote: »

mages this, mages that, mages the other thing that noone disagrees with, so go with what's most useful in most endgame situations.

A sin?

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

XAlukardx - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there was some wiz who took all his stuff off and had the stacked crit with the masteries. had like 4% base with no dex, though i could be mistaken because its been a while now

i can confirm this

thumbs

XAlukardx - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there was some wiz who took all his stuff off and had the stacked crit with the masteries. had like 4% base with no dex, though i could be mistaken because its been a while now

You could also equip a crit arrow and have it show up as increasing your crit rate when it doesn't affect your matks.

Adroit - Lost City

thumbs wrote: »

You could also equip a crit arrow and have it show up as increasing your crit rate when it doesn't affect your matks.

they fixed that too when they changed how crit was displayed in the character screen. Now masteries show up and crit arrow does not.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Again, call it no proof if you want, it is clearly more evidence (like, a TON more evidence) than there used to be that demon masteries stack.

awaiting apology . . . . b:sad

dragonist

So would a decision on whether to be Demon or Sage be also based on if you are a LA wizard or a pure build?

I read quite a few threads in which people have said that LA wizards would most benefit from being a Demon Wiz whereas a Pure build would benefit on going Heaven.
However that may only be true as most LA wizzies usually go for PVP and pures usually go for TW and PVE.

But assuming I am a LA TW Wizard who PVP's for fun once in a while, would I chose Demon or Sage?
And if I am a Pure Wiz going for PVP, would Demon be generally better or would sage still be it?

And plz, don't flame or bash, as i do admit I'm still quite a beginner and i just want a straightforward answer. Also, i really dont want people saying "go look at the skills to decide for yourself" as a new player would not really know to what degree each skill is capable of doing in end game.

Thanks so much guys :P

negativereaction

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

And your fatique notwithstanding, you've presented no evidence (let alone proof) to lead me (or anyone else) to a contrary conclusion.

the chicken killing trials are precisely what i'm referring to. you are welcome to contact Eagress on heavens tear - afaik, he doesn't use the forums much - who ran a rather lengthy ungeared chicken killing spree with all 3 demon masteries after the character display change, testing whether 2% or 4% was more likely, and found 2% to be significantly more probable.

as thumbs pointed out, the display window has been found unreliable, by itself, for the purposes of determining the numbers actually used by the game for critical rate. beyond that, believe what you want, or replicate with your own chicken-killing.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

I think I said sage for tw and larger group pvp (assume thats what you mean by "several" players). So I am not sure what your comment it directed at. We agree. I decline your invitation to be a straw man, sir.

then allow me to clarify where we disagree. aside from a few skills in demon's favor - chiefly stone barrier and the second-tier skills (divine pyro, BB, and AW) - demon is worthless. those few skills do not justify demon under any circumstances that endgame-built players, particularly those interested in pk, would find themselves facing. i don't know how much more blunt i can be.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

A sin?

yes, that's precisely what i meant. thank you for in one breath accusing me of straw-man tactics and in the next breath using them yourself. so as for your apology, i'm sorry for the irony in your post.

edit: dragonist, if anything, the increased pdef and crit from a light armor build further lessens the need for the few good points of going demon. definitely go sage, especially for tw. that said, unless you are running a dirt-cheap build, it is possible to get nearly the same survivability with an endgame arcane build these days, with considerably better m.atk and channeling. though if you're going a cheaper route - lower refines, hh90 gear, g7 stones, or something - then i suppose light armor vs arcane can still be seen as a matter of preference. i really don't like seeing "light armor wizard" and "tw" in the same sentence though.

dragonist

@negativereaction: Thanks for your response. But just wondering, is the increase in channeling speed + criticals + stuns really inferior to those of sages during tw or such? Many threads talk about doing more damage as a sage, but if i can channel faster and have higher crits wont the damage "catch" up?

Or is the Sage's Chi additions just much more superior to all that the Demon can do? (its only 50 chi right? and the possiblility of Spark reduction is like 20% only)

Sun_Burn - Lost City

dragonist wrote: »

@negativereaction: Thanks for your response. But just wondering, is the increase in channeling speed + criticals + stuns really inferior to those of sages during tw or such? Many threads talk about doing more damage as a sage, but if i can channel faster and have higher crits wont the damage "catch" up?

Or is the Sage's Chi additions just much more superior to all that the Demon can do? (its only 50 chi right? and the possiblility of Spark reduction is like 20% only)

Sages spark reduction chance from BT/MS is 50%, not 20. you need to take into account how all the sage skills work together for chi, (half the cost of distance shrink, pyrogram's 20% chance to gain 30 chi on top of whatever pyrogram already gives u for chi, i think 10 or 15?) In tw having enough chi to constantly be dropping ultis is a huge plus. And yes ive heard the argument /sarcasm/ "oh u sage nub, sage stoopidz cuz i just use cloud eruptiun, ahaz nubs" Sage can also use cloud eruption for even more chi/Ultis if we wanted to.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

All the extra chi from sage is cool and all, but i'd kill to ahve demon hailstorm and stone rain lol. and probably pitfall as well.

I've played both culti's at endgame pvp, and i have to say i lean more towards sage but everytime hailstorm fails me i wish it was demon XD.

As to the OP's question, LA just isnt a great idea anymore. If you are in TW in tt90 la gear any r8/r9 archer sin veno just about anything is gonna one shot you. That being said, you can pretty cheaply get r8 ring top pants weap 99boots 90/99gold sleeves. 90gold neck or sky demons are cheap to come by, and 4th past belt you can jsut do your culti for. all that leaves is a cape helm and a ring.

With that gear set up, r9 archers might still oen shot you. Overall you'd prolly fair better.

And if you must be LA, base yoru culti pick off of your play style.

to me, sage is all about kiting until you bypass with a crit, or get chi for an ulti bypass. demon on the other hand you still kite but you rely more on luck for stuns/freeze effects so you can just land a couple of hard hits and try to finsih the fight.

and for the tw part, a wiz is a wiz in tw. demon wiz can cloud erupt til they get to a fight and have full chi or a sage wiz can master li and cloud erupt til they get to a fight.

Adroit - Lost City

As much as I love my cultivation choice, I really don't think it's as one-sided as negativereaction is making it sound. The importance of chi cannot be understated, but some of the neat tricks demon have are really attractive as well. I'd kill for a skill like stone rain.. spammable chance for a 5 second stun. I would just love to kite around spamming SR and when it procs that'd let me channel an ult for a bypass or just poke them a few times building chi and letting my FoW/blink etc more time to cooldown. The same idea also applies to pitfall and hailstorm.. it's awesome when they proc for sage (giving me a little breathing room), and having those proc more often is definitely a big plus. Even more, an insta cast 50% chance to stun could be an awesome last resort when someone is about to take you down. I'd imagine having faster channeling and a longer distance blink making it easier to kite an opponent that is always on your ***.. not staying in the same place as long and moving farther away every 10 seconds is obviously an advantage for kiting. Then even if they do catch you, that extra pdef might really come in handy.. who knows.

Let me repeat this again (even though Blood is gonna whine about it) sage/demon for wizards are BALANCED, don't try to pick the better one (neither is better than the other).. pick the one that appeals to you. I strongly disagree to the idea that sage is better for pve/TW and demon for 1v1s.. or that one cultivation is better for a certain armor type etc.. they are simply two different play styles that perform equally well in nearly all situations.

negativereaction

nurfed_you brings up a good point in both freeze skills, which is admittedly something mages (but especially sage) sorely lack - any spammable / reliable movement stoppers. obviously there's whisper, but the long cooldown necessitates perfect usage. situationally, those can be nicer for chasing down someone who's trying to kite you (or for kiting a melee). that said, even with demon, all those skill boosts - the stun on rock fall, the two freezes - are still unreliable, and i'd rather be flush with chi even after casting an ulti or two, than have a semi-reliable freeze and mostly unreliable stun (and the other minor benefits of going demon).

re: damage "catch-up", since crit is a flat 2x damage, 1% crit boost will give you 1% more damage in the long run. crit is a little more valuable than that number indicates, because crits are often 1-hit kills (bypassing charm) for mages, but 1% with all three demon masteries still doesn't add up to the 5% boost from sage masteries.

re: cloud eruption, white teas, etc - i am sick of this argument surfacing in sage vs demon (both for mages and other classes). if you are burning your apothecary cooldown or fairy energy on chi, that limits your use of other apothecary potions and fairy skills, which can be a heavy price to pay unless you're just sitting around safe zone recharging your chi.

i appreciate that players who have been around at least as long as i have and probably know better than they let on, are trying to keep this an open discussion rather than a thread full of sagesagesagesage. i can pick out a few skills to make a weak case for demon in certain rare situations as well, if that's my wish. but in response to their openness i'm going to be blunt here - you will fare better in more endgame situations on average, particularly in pk (and especially in tw, although sage is arguably better for prolonged 1v1s as well), if you go sage. that's a big part of the reason all the people saying "it's balanced, it could go either way, it's a matter of preference" are sage.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

negativereaction: they are pretty balanced cultivations imo. yeah im sage but its just because tht fits my playstyle best, like i said i've played both with endgame gears for pvp.

im willing to bet that 90% of the time when ppl talk about cloud erupt for making up chi, they are talking in tw during down time of flying from lane a to lane c where the next push is coming. so using yoru genie doesnt really matter at that point. who would honestly use cloud erupt during a fight? i mean its a huge sign that hey my genie is dead hit me with everything you have. well unless you have a 200stamina 2regen/s genie like i do lol.

demon is a very good cultivation, but with r8 being so available the difference in the masteries shows more and more. its basically trading a little more raw damage for a little less control.

o and jsut to make it a true sage wizzie post. sage bids iz pro :P

Adroit - Lost City

It's difficult to play devil's advocate when I've barely played demon at all. I kinda wish I had made a second wizard on my account with all the demon skills to really compare them.. but that is way too much of a time/money investment than I'm willing to sacrifice. I can say from the times I've fought demon mages or watched them pvp, I definitely did not see them as gimped in any way.. and I emember being a little jealous of some of the tricks they had available (although not enough to regret my cultivation choice :P).

@negativereaction - Out of curiosity, whos your main (and server if its not LC)

negativereaction

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

who would honestly use cloud erupt during a fight?

no one, but people try to use that in sage vs demon arguments nonetheless. "50 chi skill is useless when i have white tea / cloud erupt"... not saying that was the case here, just trying to head that off before someone tries to claim it.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

with r8 being so available the difference in the masteries shows more and more. its basically trading a little more raw damage for a little less control.

decent point on the differences, and my demon mage experience is limited to private servers where high-end gear, again, showcases a strong difference between the two masteries. with the state of gear in today's PWI though, this is an argument further in favor of sage. conditioning on someone using hh90 +2 just isn't worth considering these days for most players.

that said, my own experience playing sage vs demon (or any single player's) is not entirely the point here; i am sure anyone can find stories of (very) few talented players who have gone demon and done better than some sage players. but the real point is looking at what the skills can offer.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

sage bids iz pro :P

indeed it is. though the other sage ultis are nice as well - it's good to (half the time) be able to chain a sutra combo with mountain press, and still have chi to burn if you need to sleep someone or blink away.

in summary, it does on occasion suck to be hampered, as sage mages in particular are, without control tricks (i.e. more reliable freezes and the rock fall stun). there are a few instances where sage mages will say "****, my sleep was in cooldown, if only i had some of those demon tricks, so-and-so wouldn't have been able to kite me long enough for their hiero to tick." the problem is, even with demon skills those tricks are borderline reliable at best, and in a prolonged endgame gear vs endgame gear fight, you're more likely to be gasping for chi than wishing your 20% stun had proc'd.

if you can set up a scenario where you absolutely, under any circumstances, would not need more than 4 sparks' worth of chi, and where the reduced damage from demon masteries would not cost you a hiero bypass, then i could maybe understand giving a nod to demon as being equal or indeed, slightly better for the semi-reliable controls and slightly reduced channeling. my point is that those scenarios are few and far between unless you're fighting players well below endgame-material in the first place (and any TW is obviously going to require more than 4 sparks). they're so few and far between that on average sage will serve any endgame player better.

to clarify, demon is not "gimped." there are some nice tricks (when they work) that are situationally useful. but sage comes out at least slightly better in the vast majority of endgame scenarios i can think of, primarily for the chi, masteries, and ultis.

by the way, though it's another "situational trick" that does not always make itself useful, don't forget the aoe seal on sage BP, which can be a nice occasional bonus either when facing a melee gank or in squad vs squad if foes try to cluster up either for a purge re-buff or for a genie domain.

dragonist

Thanks for the comments guys, im probably leaning toward sage now, but we'll see, got a few levels more to go...

So a few more questions:
1. So since many say that no one uses cloud eruption in the middle of a battle...Does Master Li's Technique not have any cast time (like is it practically like a "chi" pot) and so you can use it while in the middle of combat?
2. Also to reply about "catch up" from negativereaction, it wasn't just the crits tho, the channal time is decreased which means demons can cast more spells as well (though is this still insignificant damagewise) (and lets just suppose the crit ability on the demon stacks)
3. also, without being a demon, is there any way for Wizards to interupt channeling, (like demon's blade tempest)

Anyways, thanks again guys, i learned quite a lot from your posts.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

ok,

negative, with endgame gear today your culti pick doesnt matter as much anymore. r9 vs r9 its really jsut a matter of atk and def lvls. 100atk lvls vs 60def lvls its really more of a whoever crits first type thing. im yet to get my r9 weap+belt but just from pvp i've been around and fighitng with the +12 ppls, thats the general idea i get.

So again i gotta say, if you can afford to play a well geared wizzie pick your culti based on your playstyle. do you wanna have a little more chi but have to heavily rely on genie skills and pots(sage). or do you liek more reliable control skills or even the extra control skill(demon). also as demon d.pyro and g.s. are much more useful then the sage versions. that could make up the damage difference between masteries imho.

to the OP. demon blade tempest isnt the best example of a canceling skill. considering you pretty much have to sutra it to cancel anyone unless you get hella lucky.

sage chi ability isnt insta cast. but its liek 1sec channel i think, easily useable in a fight whiel waiting on cooldowns. occasionally i'll use it after a hailstorm proc sometimes after a fall whiel waiting for the enemy to come back in range.

i totally love being a sage wizard, but i'd rather see someone go demon because it fits them, then because of sage wizard hype.

Just from my pvp experience,
I have to kite a lot on tougher oppenents while trying to force an AD or waiting for a TE. after that i ahve a limited amount of time to set their hp up around 50-60% and go for the one shot during a seal. or i'll sutra to try and just down them after a charm tick.

sorry for the wall o txt. hope it isn't to much to read lol

Adroit - Lost City

dragonist wrote: »

Thanks for the comments guys, im probably leaning toward sage now, but we'll see, got a few levels more to go...

So a few more questions:
1. So since many say that no one uses cloud eruption in the middle of a battle...Does Master Li's Technique not have any cast time (like is it practically like a "chi" pot) and so you can use it while in the middle of combat?
2. Also to reply about "catch up" from negativereaction, it wasn't just the crits tho, the channal time is decreased which means demons can cast more spells as well (though is this still insignificant damagewise) (and lets just suppose the crit ability on the demon stacks)
3. also, without being a demon, is there any way for Wizards to interupt channeling, (like demon's blade tempest)

Anyways, thanks again guys, i learned quite a lot from your posts.

1) The issue with CE is it takes up like 130 energy.. which you'll be feeling for probably the next minute or so (will take that long to regen) and horribly gimps you being that genie energy is extremely important. Master li's does hold you in place for 1-2 seconds, but it has no other side effects. If in the middle of a fight and you had a little downtime (like after you dropped out of range) you could easily get that free 50 chi. You'd really need like a full minute of downtime to really justify using CE during a fight (very rare lol)

3) BT is not primarily used to interrupt channeling. We can interrupt channeling with FoW and Sporafic Whisper, but even if you had BT.. you wouldn't use it to cancel an opponent's channeling. It takes like 4 seconds to channel (longer than almost any other skill out there.. you'd need to start using it like 2 seconds before they started the skill you wanted to cancel.. lol), and costs 2 sparks.. just not a practical choice. Besides, if you are by yourself.. you can usually just blink out of range or use a mdef charm or something of the like to keep yourself alive.

negativereaction

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

negative, with endgame gear today your culti pick doesnt matter as much anymore. r9 vs r9 its really jsut a matter of atk and def lvls. 100atk lvls vs 60def lvls its really more of a whoever crits first type thing.

i have firsthand experience with this, and while i have issues accepting what you said at face value (genie skill and potion timing is probably the most important deciding factor in these fights), it is at least partially true. but that's just mage vs mage, 1 vs 1. i know i'd still rather have sage in my squad for group pk or launching ultis in tw, hands down.

an additional note for dragonist: the reduced channeling only applies to a few skills (and indeed, sage gets reduced channel on rock fall, which is pretty damn nice), and the difference between sage and demon is not as pronounced on these skills as it once was, due to the fact that any endgame build will have upwards of -29% channeling time in the first place. having more -channel on either build closes the gap a bit, meaning it's not such a strong advantage of going demon.

nurfed_you: i'd love to see someone do a nice job with demon, too, "buck the prevailing trend" sort of thing. but the OP is asking which is (at least slightly) better, on average, not which is cool because it's different and so few players use it.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

negative i think yoru misunderstanding what im saying. I'm not saying demon is "cool because there arent many". all im saying is that demon is a very viable culti and i've seen very good demon wizzies out there. its all about how you wanna play your wiz

negativereaction

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

negative i think yoru misunderstanding what im saying. I'm not saying demon is "cool because there arent many". all im saying is that demon is a very viable culti and i've seen very good demon wizzies out there. its all about how you wanna play your wiz

viable (as most things are), and possible to be played well (as anything is), sure. but you've also correctly stopped short of saying it's the better of the two.