Hook and thorns

Foxieee_trek - Harshlands
Foxieee_trek - Harshlands Posts: 148 Arc User
edited May 2011 in Assassin
hello i got a question the hook and thorns daggers are the best for80-100 right?
b:surrender
venomacer lvl 80b:pleased
assasin lvl62b:victory
Ah, crazy rich bored people, I will never be able to understand them. b:surrender
Post edited by Foxieee_trek - Harshlands on
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Well, there are two contestants for it. On 80 there's the Warsoul, but that's a bit out-of-reach for most people. On 90, there's Hitman Legend, but that costs about 150,000,000 so that's mostly out, too.

    Personally, I'll be 100 tomorrow and I've used Hook and Thorn from 80, except for a short period when I used Ghost Cry Thorn.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well, there are two contestants for it. On 80 there's the Warsoul, but that's a bit out-of-reach for most people. On 90, there's Hitman Legend, but that costs about 150,000,000 so that's mostly out, too.

    Personally, I'll be 100 tomorrow and I've used Hook and Thorn from 80, except for a short period when I used Ghost Cry Thorn.

    Uh... One person on ALL of PWI has the Warsoul daggers, that is publicly known.

    And I've never seen anyone with Hitman: Legend, though I guess they're more common than Warsoul.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Uh... One person on ALL of PWI has the Warsoul daggers, that is publicly known.

    And I've never seen anyone with Hitman: Legend, though I guess they're more common than Warsoul.

    ... Well it's not like he specified "weapons that are common/easy to get", right?

    Well, both of them are pretty much useless anyway. Lunar Dissector has fairly bad stats for a dagger compared to the much cheaper Catastrophe Stinger and similarly, Ocean Supreme Dagger tends to be better than Hitman Legend, especially if you compare spending similar amounts of coin, which would mean comparing a +0 Hitman Legend to a +10 Ocean Supreme Dagger.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • BonVoyage - Archosaur
    BonVoyage - Archosaur Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Uh... One person on ALL of PWI has the Warsoul daggers, that is publicly known.

    And I've never seen anyone with Hitman: Legend, though I guess they're more common than Warsoul.

    There are TONS of 'sins in Archosaur sporting Hitman Legend. The badges/signs market is booming, to my surprise.

    @OP: The most accessible option is definitely the Hook & Thorn, which are a good choice till level 100.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Uh... One person on ALL of PWI has the Warsoul daggers, that is publicly known.

    And I've never seen anyone with Hitman: Legend, though I guess they're more common than Warsoul.

    Are you kidding? One of the things my friends and I lol about is all the sins that post in WC "LF FCC squad, [Links Hitman Legends] It'll be a fast run (idiotic smiley)". Used to lol at all the sins who felt the need to show off their rank 6 daggers. I still see the occasional sin doing it. These same sins sport those daggers till 102 or never upgrade, btw.

    Anyways, I keep meaning to do the calculations on tt90 daggers vs. H&T because TT80 H&T damage range is not very impressive and -.05 int needs other -int gear to really make it worthwhile. Since most sins have only armor -int of .05 taking them from 1.25->1.33 its only a 9.4% dmg increase by adding that int. TT90 daggers are 10% more dmg and refine better. So I guess looking at it all you need is more than -.05 int to make H&T more worth it. Although Soul of the Sea might be a higher squad damage increase.



    What I'm doing? I have +8 deicides that I equip only when sparked (H&Ts unsparked). This'll get me from 95-100.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Are you kidding? One of the things my friends and I lol about is all the sins that post in WC "LF FCC squad, [Links Hitman Legends] It'll be a fast run (idiotic smiley)". Used to lol at all the sins who felt the need to show off their rank 6 daggers. I still see the occasional sin doing it. These same sins sport those daggers till 102 or never upgrade, btw.

    Anyways, I keep meaning to do the calculations on tt90 daggers vs. H&T because TT80 H&T damage range is not very impressive and -.05 int needs other -int gear to really make it worthwhile. Since most sins have only armor -int of .05 taking them from 1.25->1.33 its only a 9.4% dmg increase by adding that int. TT90 daggers are 10% more dmg and refine better. So I guess looking at it all you need is more than -.05 int to make H&T more worth it. Although Soul of the Sea might be a higher squad damage increase.

    Well, it is true that after a certain point in refines, the TT90 daggers will be superior to Hook and Thorn. However, the actual damage increase would be extremely small and not worth the cost. Not to mention that the TT80 daggers have much more resell value than TT90s, simply because almost no one uses the TT90s.

    And of course, there is also the fact that some people will like certain procs, such as the Faith on Ghost Cry Thorn, or Holy on Rampager Thorn: Sunstorm or Blood Defense on Unconsciousness or Pierce on Soul of the Sea to justify a loss in overall DPS in favor of the proc.

    And yes, I know a few people who own something like +10 Hitman Legends and will never even think of getting Barrier Thorn: Nirvana simply because Hitman Legend is untradeable.

    Personally though, I don't really see much point in upgrading past Hook and Thorn before 100. Simply because the increases you get are kinda meaningless. Going for TT90 or TT99 or Lunar or Frost will only at best give you a small increase in DPS and better overall DPH, but neither of those are necessary for anything. Hell, I don't even have maxed AoEs yet simply because they're not necessary.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Anyways, I keep meaning to do the calculations on tt90 daggers vs. H&T because TT80 H&T damage range is not very impressive and -.05 int needs other -int gear to really make it worthwhile. Since most sins have only armor -int of .05 taking them from 1.25->1.33 its only a 9.4% dmg increase by adding that int. TT90 daggers are 10% more dmg and refine better. So I guess looking at it all you need is more than -.05 int to make H&T more worth it. Although Soul of the Sea might be a higher squad damage increase.

    I calculated a while back that H&T out damages TT99 (about same damage as TT90 since TT90 got attack +72) with both +7. Can't remember at what base interval but it couldn't have been more than 0.1.

    Keep in mind that the 9.4% increase in APS is a direct 9.4% increase in overall DPS, which is weapon damage (including rings and shards) after the multiplication by DEX, mastery and base APS; where as the 10% is only in terms of dagger base damage. You are not taking the %'s of the same number.
  • BonVoyage - Archosaur
    BonVoyage - Archosaur Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Hell, I don't even have maxed AoEs yet simply because they're not necessary.

    A level 100 assassin with maxed Subsea and Earthen Rift will OBLITERATE a cluster of arcanes in TW with just Rank 8 daggers unsharded and unrefined. I am just telling you from experience, afterall...you'll love your AOE attacks once maxed. b:pleased
  • Foxieee_trek - Harshlands
    Foxieee_trek - Harshlands Posts: 148 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    thx guys but one more question how much are they?on HL if anyone knowsb:chuckle
    venomacer lvl 80b:pleased
    assasin lvl62b:victory
    Ah, crazy rich bored people, I will never be able to understand them. b:surrender
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Foxieee_trek - Harshlands wrote: »
    thx guys but one more question how much are they?on HL if anyone knowsb:chuckle

    Dunno about the exact price since I'm not on the server, but I'd estimate the costs to be somewhere around 5m or so.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I just recently got level 11 Subsea, while I had level 11 rift for a while already, and I say, those AoE's are lovely when timed right.

    While doing a 3 man FC with a BM and cleric the other day, on the big pull I crit 120k with demon Subsea, followed by 178k crits with rift. This is of course with HF and mire on the mobs, while I was sparked, demon emblemed, and chilled.

    I was quite happy since I've never AoE'd such a high amount before with just a +10 g13 vana.


    And in PvP, aoeing a group of people with level 11 subsea and rift is destructive. And it's much more destructive on a sage than demon XD. So level your AoE's Olbaze! And grats on 100 ^^
    [SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
    Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
    youtube.com/user/SkaiPW - Assassin PvE/PvP Videos!
  • Sereneai - Dreamweaver
    Sereneai - Dreamweaver Posts: 351 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »
    those AoE's are lovely when timed right

    yesh b:dirtyb:dirty
    i have rift at 9, subsea at 7 or 8 (just haven't had the coin to level em), sparked+emblem takes aoe aggro from most players my level (except for seekers, annoyingly) b:surrender have to be careful or i die.
    Things said during a Twizted faction PK session:
    Slayer_of_Souls: you guys are such suck ups. none of you have attacked twid.
    Twiddzly(fac leader): no, sere killed me already.
    Slayer_of_Souls: he's out there waiting for us, isn't he. i'm gonna die.
    Sereneai: b:sin why don't you come find out.
    Kinglkaruga: you go first dule.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    "best" is subjective. Many say they are, but that is usually based on demon sparked auto-attacks. There are some reasons to get other daggers (proc, aoe damage, looks, just to be different from the 90% other sins, ...), but H&T is good enough to get to 99/100.

    Some even use those (or even fists) at lvl100+ a while because "nobody cares about my dps, they just want aps. So I just follow Demand" (quote of a sin in vana). H&T has a -0.05 int so ppl will think you're pro using them no matter what.
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well, there are two contestants for it. On 80 there's the Warsoul, but that's a bit out-of-reach for most people. On 90, there's Hitman Legend, but that costs about 150,000,000 so that's mostly out, too.

    b:laugh you made me lol. There is 1 bm on sanc saving for warsoul axes. He's working on it for 2+ years now.


    @ Skai : ZOMG I'm so jealous, I want lvl11 subsea but can't find it and no luck b:angry But big gratz to you for getting it b:kiss
  • Alchemy - Harshlands
    Alchemy - Harshlands Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Foxieee_trek - Harshlands wrote: »
    thx guys but one more question how much are they?on HL if anyone knowsb:chuckle

    If you are thinking about HnT, the price without any shards or refiens is between3-4 mil on HL. Generally you can get it with like +3 and 2 immaculates for maybe 6 mil.
  • Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Ok my H&T are at +6 with 2 immacs should try to plus it further or just keep it there till I get barrier ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Thank you Dorset
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Ok my H&T are at +6 with 2 immacs should try to plus it further or just keep it there till I get barrier ?

    Refining it any more is kinda pointless. You're going to end up selling it anyway and you'll just be losing money as you'll never be able to sell it at the price it cost you.

    And the additional damage doesn't really serve any purpose as it's not going to make you able to do anything you wouldn't be able to otherwise and you won't be doing anything where seconds of time will be of essence.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Refining it any more is kinda pointless. You're going to end up selling it anyway and you'll just be losing money as you'll never be able to sell it at the price it cost you.

    And the additional damage doesn't really serve any purpose as it's not going to make you able to do anything you wouldn't be able to otherwise and you won't be doing anything where seconds of time will be of essence.

    Ok thanks man any idea roughly how much I should sell for I kno your on diffrent server but ball figure?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Thank you Dorset
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Ok thanks man any idea roughly how much I should sell for I kno your on diffrent server but ball figure?

    It's a bit tough to say.

    If you were to actually make that item, you'd probably be looking at costs of about 24-25m, most of which is due to the high refine.

    You might be able to sell it off at 20m if you get lucky. Personally, I'd probably settle for 15-20m.

    But really, it depends on what you paid for it. Personally, I tend to sell stuff I don't use at a price slightly lower than I bought them for.

    Personally, I went 80-100 with Hook and Thorn and it was only +4 with 2x Immaculates and that was more than enough damage, so that might downplay the value of a higher refined/sharded Hook and Thorn: It's just not worth the investment. That is, unless you get it really cheap.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It's a bit tough to say.

    If you were to actually make that item, you'd probably be looking at costs of about 24-25m, most of which is due to the high refine.

    You might be able to sell it off at 20m if you get lucky. Personally, I'd probably settle for 15-20m.

    But really, it depends on what you paid for it. Personally, I tend to sell stuff I don't use at a price slightly lower than I bought them for.

    Personally, I went 80-100 with Hook and Thorn and it was only +4 with 2x Immaculates and that was more than enough damage, so that might downplay the value of a higher refined/sharded Hook and Thorn: It's just not worth the investment. That is, unless you get it really cheap.

    I bought with nothing on it plus nothing I plused it I bought for 4.5 I think prolly dumbed about 8 or 9 into it. So 15 would still b more money back
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Thank you Dorset
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Ok my H&T are at +6 with 2 immacs should try to plus it further or just keep it there till I get barrier ?
    I've been doing just fine with +2 2 immac garnets. Just recently got them to +3. You don't want to make yourself too powerful before you have the HP to handle all the aggro you'll be stealing.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I've been doing just fine with +2 2 immac garnets. Just recently got them to +3. You don't want to make yourself too powerful before you have the HP to handle all the aggro you'll be stealing.

    I do alot of solo stuff but me and and 2 real life friends (barb,cleric) just started to fcc I can handel my own think I have just shy of 4500hp.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Thank you Dorset
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I do alot of solo stuff but me and and 2 real life friends (barb,cleric) just started to fcc I can handel my own think I have just shy of 4500hp.
    Lol ok, you're on par with me thenb:chuckle
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Lol ok, you're on par with me thenb:chuckle

    Lol ALRIGHT!!!!!! Hey do you think I could attempt spiders when I get a sec im gonna try doing the calc I havent been able to use comp since sunday to show my gear
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Thank you Dorset
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    You mean these spiders?
    Idk, they have a nasty poison which the cast constantly. Both Tidal Protection and triple spark (for purify) are needed to handle the properly. I tired them once last level and got gang-banged. I don't have Tidal Protection yet, so I'm gonna get that today and try again.
    I was also a little impatient. I freaking hate poison and prefer to do 3~5-mob pulls in Hell <<
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You mean these spiders?
    Idk, they have a nasty poison which the cast constantly. Both Tidal Protection and triple spark (for purify) are needed to handle the properly. I tired them once last level and got gang-banged. I don't have Tidal Protection yet, so I'm gonna get that today and try again.
    I was also a little impatient. I freaking hate poison and prefer to do 3~5-mob pulls in Hell <<

    Pulling the Lethal Araneid Sharpfangs on a melee character is one of the dumbest things you can do, because they cast the wood DoT when out of melee range. In melee range though, they have a pathetic physical attack.

    Also, you can sometimes avoid the DoT by teleporting or running at them with a speed skill.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I take the spiders one at a time... I mean I'm too impatient to do one at a time. I prefer taking 3-5 of the beasts if demonic assault at a time.
    I have Jump leve 10, so I'll try that.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I take the spiders one at a time... I mean I'm too impatient to do one at a time. I prefer taking 3-5 of the beasts if demonic assault at a time.
    I have Jump leve 10, so I'll try that.

    I would advice against pulling multiple of them.

    Simply because if you have to Demon Spark to kill them efficiently, then you'll be potting against the DoT or using your chi skills constantly, both of which are not optimal in terms of time and money used.

    The mobs already have an extremely low life. For example, in my case, I deal about 3.5k or so average damage, at 2.22 aps, which lets me kill them in about 5-6 seconds per mob. That means 10-12 mobs per minute and therefore 600-720 mobs in an hour. That's a pretty huge number. Also, majority of the time I actually run out of mobs because I've killed all that are not clustered. And that was with Hook and Thorn. With Ocean Supreme Dagger I'm expecting to take 3-5 seconds per mob.

    And on your level, I was doing Nivastok Shieldbearers.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I would advice against pulling multiple of them.

    Simply because if you have to Demon Spark to kill them efficiently, then you'll be potting against the DoT or using your chi skills constantly, both of which are not optimal in terms of time and money used.

    The mobs already have an extremely low life. For example, in my case, I deal about 3.5k or so average damage, at 2.22 aps, which lets me kill them in about 5-6 seconds per mob. That means 10-12 mobs per minute and therefore 600-720 mobs in an hour. That's a pretty huge number. Also, majority of the time I actually run out of mobs because I've killed all that are not clustered. And that was with Hook and Thorn. With Ocean Supreme Dagger I'm expecting to take 3-5 seconds per mob.

    And on your level, I was doing Nivastok Shieldbearers.

    Ok ill try them out roughly where abouts are they?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Thank you Dorset
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Ok ill try them out roughly where abouts are they?

    East of Snowy Village. After you go over the small mountain just outside the village, there'll be a huge plain.

    Though, grinding on higher level mobs isn't really advantageous to Assassins. On 82, I was busy grinding on Chief Assassins on Nightscream Island just outside the entrance to Hallucinatory Trench. From there I moved to Eerie Pythons southwest of Thousand Streams, then Nivastok Shieldbearers east of Snowy Village and finally Lethal Araneid Sharpfangs south of Avalanche Village.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver
    Insanebrujah - Dreamweaver Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    East of Snowy Village. After you go over the small mountain just outside the village, there'll be a huge plain.

    Though, grinding on higher level mobs isn't really advantageous to Assassins. On 82, I was busy grinding on Chief Assassins on Nightscream Island just outside the entrance to Hallucinatory Trench. From there I moved to Eerie Pythons southwest of Thousand Streams, then Nivastok Shieldbearers east of Snowy Village and finally Lethal Araneid Sharpfangs south of Avalanche Village.

    Thank you for the info any good drops or just dq's?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Thank you Dorset

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