Vs High Level Seekers

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

zeon aroudn what server time do you play? i wana kill you with my tt60 weap. see if you are a pro at kiting

StacysMum - Dreamweaver

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

zeon aroudn what server time do you play? i wana kill you with my tt60 weap. see if you are a pro at kiting

She gonna kill you with fire

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

And once you gear up to the point the bm needs 2 stuns or eventually an apoc/2 spark skill replace "bm" with "sin" or "Rank 9 archers and mages" above.

My issue with seekers is my issue with barbs, sure they're hard to kill when they're geared to the teeth, but unless its full rank 9 there's almost no threat of you actually dieing even if they do kite. I honestly have more fear of a skilled +5 rank 8 archer than a skilled +10 rank 8 seeker. similar damage (though without the spike of gemini oh no) more range and more control skills and antistuns

Its not impossible to kill another class as a seeker however theres an inherent and massive disadvantage versus every other class. Its ok bm's are in the same boat these days sadly. So yes I'm sure your thuper pro but the class is **** balls

Like I said, most BMs don't kill me in one stun. If I notice that they have the potential to, which is rare, then I expel that during that stun, immediately after my charm ticks so that expel will last me nearly until the next charm tick, and proceed to make sure that I time my usage of crabs correctly. And if I notice that they have the potential to kill me in two stuns, then I either wait to expel during the second one, or fortify/anti-stun it away from it.

I disagree with you on the inherent and massive disadvantage. Seekers do extremely well against Sins as well. I say this from prior experience; I've fought a lot more +10 Nirvana Sins than +10 TT100 fisted BMs, and I kill most of the Sins I fight. Ones without R8/NV daggers with great refines are laughed at in terms of their DPS, and their control skills are easier to counter than BMs. I NEVER (and yes, I can say this definitively) get killed by Sins with anything less than R8 daggers in anything but ganks. And I RARELY get killed by R8/Nirvana/non-zerk Sins with mediocre refines.

The only class that seems to be difficult for Seekers to kill on equal gear terms is Psychics, and that's if they know you're coming. Still a two shot if you catch them in black voodoo, just like any other melee class would attempt to do. Except Seekers get to spam magic attacks to finish them off when they try to Psy Will at the last second.

I can see how the pure stupidity of most of the Seekers of most servers can and has contributed to people's opinions of them in PvP. I can't tell you how many full Nirvana Seekers/+10-12 weapon Seekers I've seen that don't know how to do anything but run out and vortex with a vacuity, or fight with Soulsever on, auto-attacking with wind sheild and only using blade affinity to cast gemini when the stance procs.

By the way, I used your build in the calculation just to double check, and made it EXTREMELY accurate this time just so that I could be SURE of the average DPS in case you wanted to see it, and it still came out that on average a +10 TT100 BM wouldn't be killing me without spark in one stun, which I know is true because they usually don't show the damage output potential to. If you want me to post it then I can, but until then I don't see the need to. Here's my build if you want it. http://www.pwcalc.com/c610bc8ef8c42d6c Take away three attack levels and one defense level from Bladed Fervor, add five defense levels from Krav Maga, and add five defense levels from sage Adrenal Numbness.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

zeon aroudn what server time do you play? i wana kill you with my tt60 weap. see if you are a pro at kiting

Due to my current gear providing me with **** magical defenses, my goal against Wizards, or any AA class, is to kill them before they kill me. So the only time you'd see me running from a wizard is during FoW, or possibly from a triple spark depending on what I do and don't have in cooldown at the time. I'll be getting a cube neck/warsong belt/two lunar rings around December after I get my 100 skills and enough raptures to make my weapon, which will increase my mdef a lot, but even then I can't see myself kiting wizards. Especially not after getting Rewinding Gesture.

If you do want to see an example of me kiting, then you should watch me fighting some of the typical Nirvana dagger Sins. Or BMs, even though they're a lot more rare and don't require the same level of kiting as a Sin.

And I probably won't be on much before this weekend. On school days I'm usually on from 7-10PM, and on weekends it varies, but I'll PM you in-game when I'm on this weekend. If I get the chance to get on before then, then I'll make sure I notify you via this topic/PM.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

I got 2730 dps when I calced it, reduce def level to 22 from a jones and give the bm 5 aps with wind sheild/cyclone.

10500/2730 = 3.84 seconds. I didnt bother throwing hat/ring attack levels on.

If bm's on your sever cant work around expel they suck pretty badly, and if +10 vana sins cant kill you...they must be literally ****.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

If a +10 TT100 fist BM used Wind Shield while trying to kill me, I would expel, period, so I'm using 4APS base.

Got 2204 DPS with a difference of 22 between attack and defense levels, and most BMs don't have two Sky Cover rings. This is with .25 crit rate and not counting misses.
Got 1807 DPS including evasion with a difference of 22 between attack and defense levels.
Got 2106 DPS with a difference of 25 " " " and not counting misses.
Got 1727 DPS counting evasion, etc etc.

The first one barely cuts it, and the second one doesn't. My point still stands; if I'm using crabs, a +10 TT100 fist BM will usually not kill me within one stun, if at all.

And by your logic, most of the Sins/BMs on our server must be mentally challenged. Unfortunately, this is probably true. If I could transfer to LC to see if there was much of a skill difference, I would, but I can't.

Okeano - Harshlands

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

Okeano you shoudl roll a seeker and learn how to be beast at it. that way harshlands has a seeker with decent gear who actually thinks when they pvp.

wtb a seeker that isnt a one shot

Nty. I was so excited to make my Seeker, waited for months while watched people's vids on the CN server. When they came out, I leveled mine to 6X through questing and it was like a bucket of water over my head once I hit 59 and got all the skills. "This is it? This is all I get?"

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

I remember I felt the same way when I got to 59, but I kept playing with it anyway because it seemed more fun than the other classes. I used to spend most of my time on PWI dueling other low names, but other than that it got pretty boring. Then I got super hyped for my 79 skills and leveled purely for the purpose of getting those. After I got to 85 and got a full FC set with +4 FC dual blades, I started doing even more PvP, although I got rolled most of the time, lol. Stayed 85 for a while before leveling to 90 and getting some TT90, spent all of my time doing PvP at West, Silver, and HO, etc. Got my third spark and some sage skills, yay. PvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvP "OH LOOK, FRODO'S SELLING +4 LUNAR DUAL BLADES FOR 30MIL?" Bought those and then had a reason to level, PvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvP weeks later got some 99 sage skills and had another reason to level, got my second fairy and more sage skills like two weeks ago. Now it's more PvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvP and saving up raptures/chrono pages/buying sage skills/getting the ridiculously long 100 culti done.

You should've stayed with Seeker, it gets a lot more fun once you start PvPing. If I wasn't 15/could get a job/money I'd have some good gear right now, but unfortunately it looks like it's going to be a loooong process. Hopefully PWI doesnt die before then.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

I remember I felt the same way when I got to 59, but I kept playing with it anyway because it seemed more fun than the other classes. I used to spend most of my time on PWI dueling other low names, but other than that it got pretty boring. Then I got super hyped for my 79 skills and leveled purely for the purpose of getting those. After I got to 85 and got a full FC set with +4 FC dual blades, I started doing even more PvP, although I got rolled most of the time, lol. Stayed 85 for a while before leveling to 90 and getting some TT90, spent all of my time doing PvP at West, Silver, and HO, etc. Got my third spark and some sage skills, yay. PvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvP "OH LOOK, FRODO'S SELLING +4 LUNAR DUAL BLADES FOR 30MIL?" Bought those and then had a reason to level, PvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvP weeks later got some 99 sage skills and had another reason to level, got my second fairy and more sage skills like two weeks ago. Now it's more PvPvPvPvPvPvPvPvP and saving up raptures/chrono pages/buying sage skills/getting the ridiculously long 100 culti done.

You should've stayed with Seeker, it gets a lot more fun once you start PvPing.

A three second stun with a stupidly long cooldown, one freeze that only has a 70% chance to work, and a skill that gives certain attacks a small % chance to freeze an opponent... Not sure how a class with horrible control skills is fun to play, every Seeker I've ever fought was taken down pretty easily. Sins have an even easier time because of of having two teleport skills, if you manage to get away or Expel and start kiting then *poof* they're right on you. Though, any smart sin would prevent you from moving, even with Expel... you know, what with Condensed Thorn adding water damage and letting them land stuns and freezes past Expel.

Okeano - Harshlands

BM for life. Nothing like dropping a DG and watch everything BURN!

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A three second stun with a stupidly long cooldown, one freeze that only has a 70% chance to work, and a skill that gives certain attacks a small % chance to freeze an opponent... Not sure how a class with horrible control skills is fun to play, every Seeker I've ever fought was taken down pretty easily. Sins have an even easier time because of of having two teleport skills, if you manage to get away or Expel and start kiting then *poof* they're right on you. Though, any smart sin would prevent you from moving, even with Expel... you know, what with Condensed Thorn adding water damage and letting them land stuns and freezes past Expel.

Condensed Thorn does almost no damage through expel. Most Sins can't kill me in one stun. And they can only use their tele-stun every three minutes, so if the normal tele to me, I just keep kiting. Tackling Slash gets countered by QPQ. Sage Heartseeker has a 90% chance to immobilize with no stance on. Sage Voidstep stuns for four seconds. Sins can't keep me in the same spot for too long, and for the time they do they usually can't kill me. If I see a spark, I stun them and then attempt to immobilize. If stun fails, anti-stun, run, and attempt to immobilize. If both fail, anti-stun/run/fly until spark is over, and attempt to immobilize again. Being able to kite and still survive when caught is very fun.

Also, if they attempt to tele to me while immobilized, they get stuck for the remainder of the immobilization. I love that glitch.

Trust me, Zan, you're not the only Sin who can think (although there aren't many). There are many who do and have tried what you've mentioned and more.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

Condensed Thorn does almost no damage through expel. Most Sins can't kill me in one stun. And they can only use their tele-stun every three minutes, so if the normal tele to me, I just keep kiting. Tackling Slash gets countered by QPQ. Sage Heartseeker has a 90% chance to immobilize with no stance on. Sage Voidstep stuns for four seconds. Sins can't keep me in the same spot for too long, and for the time they do they usually can't kill me. If I see a spark, I stun them and then attempt to immobilize. If stun fails, anti-stun, run, and attempt to immobilize. If both fail, anti-stun/run/fly until spark is over, and attempt to immobilize again. Being able to kite and still survive when caught is very fun.

Also, if they attempt to tele to me while immobilized, they get stuck for the remainder of the immobilization. I love that glitch.

Trust me, Zan, you're not the only Sin who can think (although there aren't many). There are many who do and have tried what you've mentioned and more.

Sleep from stealth>seal+freeze auto till expel>telestun at the end of expel>Oi>dead

didn't use HH at all seal/freeze/sleep and normal tele are all on cooldown as is con thorn force stealth deaden nerves and tital protection plus the sin still has 3 sparks by the end of this.

So even with badge and fortify your more or less boned.

Or heres the easy combo 3 spark at 30 meters>telestun>if you make it over to the expel key Con>freeze>RDS>force and 3 spark + OI from stealth at the end of it

Expel eats all geni energy and in either situation theres no opening to telestun antistun or even hit a skill. Expel = suicide vs a good sin or a bm with wood apos

for arguements sake bm combo vs expel = wood pot>keep stunlocking normally any break in lock from antistuns = hit red sprint it lasts longer than all of the seeker antistuns combined soooo eventualy you go back into lock.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

Condensed Thorn does almost no damage through expel. Most Sins can't kill me in one stun. And they can only use their tele-stun every three minutes, so if the normal tele to me, I just keep kiting. Tackling Slash gets countered by QPQ. Sage Heartseeker has a 90% chance to immobilize with no stance on. Sage Voidstep stuns for four seconds. Sins can't keep me in the same spot for too long, and for the time they do they usually can't kill me. If I see a spark, I stun them and then attempt to immobilize. If stun fails, anti-stun, run, and attempt to immobilize. If both fail, anti-stun/run/fly until spark is over, and attempt to immobilize again. Being able to kite and still survive when caught is very fun.

Also, if they attempt to tele to me while immobilized, they get stuck for the remainder of the immobilization. I love that glitch.

Trust me, Zan, you're not the only Sin who can think (although there aren't many). There are many who do and have tried what you've mentioned and more.

It's not about the damage, it's about being able to use controls skills through your Expel. Even if you Expel they'll be able to use Condensed Thorn followed by Tackling Slash to freeze you in place, then you're out of a genie and they'll just have their way with you due to your lack of control skills. 90% is still not reliable enough, lv 10/Sage RotP's stun % isn't reliable enough, and it's pretty close to 100%.

What would you do in this situation:

Headhunt from stealth>Inner Harmony>Auto with occult as as Headhunt's stun ends.

Chances are you'd let your charm tick then Expel, but by the time it ticks you'll already be in occult making you Domain or Expel. If you Expel they can Condensed Thorn then freeze you in place as Occult ends then continue auto attacking. If you Domain it'll buy you time, but you'll have exhausted your genie. They can simply force stealth, then get ready for another onslaught, this time without the issue of your genie.

Now of course there are variables, but if you're fighting a skilled sin as a Seeker you're not gonna win. Period. You can send his debuffs back at him, have him frozen in place and sealed, and whatever else but that's only for a few seconds. Unless you can end the fight then and there while the sin is frozen and sealed, which is doubtful, then they'll simply teleport to you and kill you or just.. you know.. stealth up and do it again. Without the issue of your genie. I've fought plenty of Seekers on both my BM and Sin, none of them could ever really do much harm even with superior refines. You could be the most skilled Seeker in game but you'd most likely end up dying to any Sin or BM that has half a brain.

And please, don't bring apo into it, because a sin will have access to the exact same stuff, sure it may prolong the fight, but in the end.. unless the sin's stupid or seriously slips up, you're gonna lose.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Either one of two things happens there with that intro. If their DPS is high enough to cause me to expel, I'd do it right before throatcut silence wore off so that I'd get the nine second immune and not be silenced. Then I'd anti-stun and run, proceed to kite and spam crabs. And I dunno why you bring up wood apoths so much, I have NEVER seen anyone on our server make wood apoths just to PvP with.

Zan. At that point, if expel wears off a little after occult does (which it normally does) I'd QPQ their tackling slash, use my running skill, battousai, blade afffinity, arme nier. At this point the immobilize from their tackling slash is wearing off, so I use heartseeker at the right timing to immobilize them immediately after it wears off. They usually tele-stun to me at this point, but can't do anything due to the glitch. If they stealth and they're a demon Sin, I just run to where I KNOW they're immobilized and use edged blur. If there are no targets around for them to waste their tele on, then that draws them out. And it is about damage; if they can't kill me in a stun period then it makes it a LOT harder to kill me.

Like I said, there's not much from Sins that I haven't seen before. I've fought a HELLA lot of them, unlike BMs.

Also, I have a MAG genie, so it cools down pretty quickly. If a Sin stealths from me in a situation where I can't be sure of where they are to take them out of stealth with edged, then at that point, I jump and fly until my genie cooldown is done. And it's a very quick genie cooldown. QPQ's cooldown is also 45 seconds, so..yeah. Next theoretical situation you can come up with?

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

Either one of two things happens there with that intro. If their DPS is high enough to cause me to expel, I'd do it right before throatcut silence wore off so that I'd get the nine second immune and not be silenced. Then I'd anti-stun and run, proceed to kite and spam crabs. And I dunno why you bring up wood apoths so much, I have NEVER seen anyone on our server make wood apoths just to PvP with.

Zan. At that point, if expel wears off a little after occult does (which it normally does) I'd QPQ their tackling slash, use my running skill, battousai, blade afffinity, arme nier. At this point the immobilize from their tackling slash is wearing off, so I use heartseeker at the right timing to immobilize them immediately after it wears off. They usually tele-stun to me at this point, but can't do anything due to the glitch. And it is about damage; if they can't kill me in a stun period then it makes it a LOT harder to kill me.

Like I said, there's not much from Sins that I haven't seen before. I've fought a HELLA lot of them, unlike BMs.

Also, I have a MAG genie, so it cools down pretty quickly. If a Sin stealths from me in a situation where I can't be sure of where they are to take them out of stealth with edged, then at that point, I jump and fly until my genie cooldown is done. And it's a very quick genie cooldown. QPQ's cooldown is also 45 seconds, so..yeah. Next theoretical situation you can come up with?

Even if you do that, and I already listed that possibility, the sin will have ample chi to teleport stun to you. You'll get one, maybe two attacks off while they're sealed, and if you can attack them that means you're in teleport range. The sin can tele stun to you, use Rising Dragon Strike for chi, put you to sleep, then freeze you in place. Quid Pro Quo and your genie are both on cool down with you frozen in place for 9 seconds, best thing you can do is use apo... which at best prolongs the fight to the point where you can kite for a few more seconds before you're teleported to, slept again, frozen in place again, hit by a chi skill, then get triple sparked>Occult>auto'd into oblivion.

Even if you were to use apo you'd still be frozen in place and the sin can get chi off you via auto attack, even if it doesn't kill you. Expel takes 125 energy, you have to last an entire minute in order to be able to use it again. You buy about 10 seconds with kiting, if you're lucky. You can buy another 20 with the proper apo. You might manage another 10, again if you're lucky, through kiting. That's 40 seconds. In your best case scenario the sin will have a 15 second window to kill you before Expel's ready. Or, of course, they can wait, repeat this little cycle, then dispose of you easily because you can't use apo to tank their damage and wait on Expel again. Any strategy you can use, subdued, and then you die. All in about two minutes if you're lucky. Your whole survival strategy against them involved Expel, and that.. well that just doesn't cut it against well geared sins that know what they're doing. Trust me.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Them teleport stunning me while they're immobilized disables them from doing anything until the immobilize wears off. Blade Affinity gives me a 50% chance to evade all status effects, and my running skill gives me anti-stun. Usually after QPQing tackling I don't use my running skill until right after the silence wears off just in case they do choose to attempt to tele-stun, in which case they'd either be stuck until their immobilize wears off before I immobilize them again, or they'd be stuck until my immobilize wore off of them (if they let me do that before attempting to tele-stun me). I've been through this process too many times. The difference between you and I is that you most likely haven't seen this situation play out like I have. You tell me to trust you in your claims as if I haven't seen this OVER and OVER from almost all of the Sins on the server. Oh, and I don't use apos (usually dews) unless I'm getting ganked, and even then I usually don't have them/don't waste them on that. Not dying from being ganked by two 100+ toons isn't that important to me.

Do you have a character on HL?

And lol, I need to make a PvP video sooner or later. What's the primary program that people use to record for PWI? Fraps?

Edit: Lol, I never brought apo into it. I, personally, rarely use them. Very rarely. I think you mistook me for Josh.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

Them teleport stunning me while they're immobilized disables them from doing anything until the immobilize wears off. Blade Affinity gives me a 50% chance to evade all status effects, and my running skill gives me anti-stun. Usually after QPQing tackling I don't use my running skill until right after the silence wears off just in case they do choose to attempt to tele-stun, in which case they'd either be stuck until their immobilize wears off before I immobilize them again, or they'd be stuck until my immobilize wore off of them (if they let me do that before attempting to tele-stun me). I've been through this process too many times. The difference between you and I is that you most likely haven't seen this situation play out like I have. You tell me to trust you in your claims as if I haven't seen this OVER and OVER from almost all of the Sins on the server.

Do you have a character on HL?

And lol, I need to make a PvP video sooner or later. What's the primary program that people use to record for PWI? Fraps?

The sin can wait it off, it's only 4 seconds if I remember correctly. Just Windpush and run at you and the second it's off *poof* tele stun, same situation as I mentioned earlier. Speaking of dodging status effects by the way, I wasn't even including Tidal Protection. That buff alone would render your debuff reflect useless if it dodged the debuffs you were sending the Sin's way.

I don't care to figure out exactly how long a sin would be frozen in air if they were to port to you but I do know that you'd only get about 2 seconds of kiting in and they'd be on the ground before you could freeze them, meaning they'd be able to use skills. The Sin could just wait for the freeze to go away, your Blade Affinity and sprint would both be in cool down meaning you can't anti stun or get the buff which allows you to evade status effects, the Sin can teleport stun to you, use Tackling Slash, then use Rising Dragon Strike. Having gained chi from auto attacking past Expel while you were Occulted along with using chi skills the sin can triple spark now, Expel is still on cool down and even if you Quid Quo Pro it'll get resisted by the spark. Sin Occults, auto attacks, and wins. Next hypothetical counter please.

And by the way, this is only one strategy a sin could use... not even bringing Tidal Protection or Force Stealth into it. Tidal Protection means your freezes and even Quid Pro Quo would have a much harder time landing. Force Stealth means they can evade whatever you wanna throw at them and just wait for whatever temporary buff you have to fade then they can come at you again... Without Stealth or Tidal being a factor a sin can still beat you and effectively counter just about anything you can throw at it, so sorry if I think a skilled sin will still beat you.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The sin can wait it off, it's only 4 seconds if I remember correctly. Just Windpush and run at you and the second it's off *poof* tele stun, same situation as I mentioned earlier. Speaking of dodging status effects by the way, I wasn't even including Tidal Protection. That buff alone would render your debuff reflect useless if it dodged the debuffs you were sending the Sin's way.

I don't care to figure out exactly how long a sin would be frozen in air if they were to port to you but I do know that you'd only get about 2 seconds of kiting in and they'd be on the ground before you could freeze them, meaning they'd be able to use skills. The Sin could just wait for the freeze to go away, your Blade Affinity and sprint would both be in cool down meaning you can't anti stun or get the buff which allows you to evade status effects, the Sin can teleport stun to you, use Tackling Slash, then use Rising Dragon Strike. Having gained chi from auto attacking past Expel while you were Occulted along with using chi skills the sin can triple spark now, Expel is still on cool down and even if you Quid Quo Pro it'll get resisted by the spark. Sin Occults, auto attacks, and wins. Next hypothetical counter please.

And by the way, this is only one strategy a sin could use... not even bringing Tidal Protection or Force Stealth into it. Tidal Protection means your freezes and even Quid Pro Quo would have a much harder time landing. Force Stealth means they can evade whatever you wanna throw at them and just wait for whatever temporary buff you have to fade then they can come at you again... Without Stealth or Tidal being a factor a sin can still beat you and effectively counter just about anything you can throw at it, so sorry if I think a skilled sin will still beat you.

You don't have to apologize for it; it's the general opinion of the community at this point. I blame it on most Seekers not knowing how to play their class.

Before the hypothetical counter, I must let you know that NOTHING can stop Quid Pro Quo's reflected debuffs. NOTHING. I can transfer immobilize and slow onto a BM using Will of Bodhi. And it's not an attack that deals damage, so spark can't resist it.

Also, after transferring back their immobilize, I don't immediately use anti-stun and Blade Affinity, like I said. If I don't have to, then I try to preserve them. Usually the times when I do use anti-stun and Blade Affinity at that point are the times when I know they're squishy and will die before they get to catch me/stun me.

But, yeah. Windpush does not release them from the immobilize that I transfer back to them from their tackling. If they don't anti-stun, then I just attempt to freeze them again immediately after the tackling immobilize wears off. If they do anti-stun, then I run away from them until it wears off. If I didn't attempt to kill them in the first place, this is when my running skill is used, and a lot of Sins waste teles here.

Edit: Josh, this also applies to BMs. When you anti-stun, I don't attempt to immobilize you. I run until it wears off. And unlike Sins, BMs don't have anti-stuns that I have to worry about.

Second Edit: And Zan, make sure you don't try to force stealth during an immobilize; that just makes it easy for me to use edged and lure you out.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

You don't have to apologize for it; it's the general opinion of the community at this point. I blame it on most Seekers not knowing how to play their class.

Before the hypothetical counter, I must let you know that NOTHING can stop Quid Pro Quo's reflected debuffs. NOTHING. I can transfer immobilize and slow onto a BM using Will of Bodhi. And it's not an attack that deals damage, so spark can't resist it.

Also, after transferring back their immobilize, I don't immediately use anti-stun and Blade Affinity, like I said. If I don't have to, then I try to preserve them. Usually the times when I do use anti-stun and Blade Affinity at that point are the times when I know they're squishy and will die before they get to catch me/stun me.

But, yeah. Windpush does not release them from the immobilize that I transfer back to them from their tackling. If they don't anti-stun, then I just attempt to freeze them again immediately after the tackling immobilize wears off. If they do anti-stun, then I run away from them until it wears off. If I didn't attempt to kill them in the first place, this is when my running skill is used, and a lot of Sins waste teles here.

Edit: Josh, this also applies to BMs. When you anti-stun, I don't attempt to immobilize you. I run until it wears off. And unlike Sins, BMs don't have anti-stuns that I have to worry about.

Second Edit: And Zan, make sure you don't try to force stealth during an immobilize; that just makes it easy for me to use edged and lure you out.

Triple spark resists stuns, freezes, seals, and sleeps, all of which don't cause damage unless it's a side effect of a skill that causes damage such as Drake Bash or Throatcut. As far as I know Quid just reflects debuffs, it doesn't say anything about making them unresistable. I may have to test that out to be perfectly sure, but I'm very confident that spark resisting Quid is possible. You could use it past Domain, since Domain only makes you immune to damage and stuns, but a triple spark should resist whatever debuffs you reflect.

A well geared sin isn't gonna die in four seconds, and they can teleport to you even while frozen. Your reaction won't be to stand there, you're gonna run a bit, and if you do stand there the sin only has a small amount of time before the freeze wears off and he's back on the ground, as I said in my previous post. Honestly there's not too much I have to add to my previous post since it kinda covers everything I could use as a reply to what you're saying here.

In response to your second edit: In order to unstealth a sin with that you have to be close to them, which you won't be if you're kiting. Depending on how far you kite I doubt you'd manage to make it to them in time for your skill to bring them out of stealth, and even if you somehow did you've wasted two sparks and they still have the advantage of first attack unless they're extremely slow.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

If you consider fourteen meters close, then yes, I do have to be close to them. And I don't see how that gives them the advantage of first attack if I'm not within melee range and my skill hits them when it brings them out of stealth. The first thing I do is tab and hit them with a ranged attack.

And yes, they do only have a small amount of time before they fall to the ground and are able to use teleports again, which is why I use my immobilize right as they're falling to the ground, less than a second after the first immobilize wears off. I'm not sure if you're quite understanding what I'm saying.

And with the transferred debuffs, like I said, they can't be resisted or avoided under any circumstance. The spark may purify AFTER I transfer the debuffs, but if I QPQ'd after/as they sparked, they'd still get the silence and other debuffs transferred. And the only part of QPQ that can be resisted by tidal is the silence that comes with the skill, but the transferred debuffs are indeed unavoidable. And if I make a silence one of the transferred debuffs, then that becomes unavoidable as well. This is why the three second silence from QPQ can be avoided by tidal, but if I expel myself in the middle of QPQ channeling, then the nine second silence that I transfer to you CANNOT be avoided.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

If you consider fourteen meters close, then yes, I do have to be close to them. And I don't see how that gives them the advantage of first attack if I'm not within melee range and my skill hits them when it brings them out of stealth. The first thing I do is tab and hit them with a ranged attack.

And yes, they do only have a small amount of time before they fall to the ground and are able to use teleports again, which is why I use my immobilize right as they're falling to the ground, less than a second after the first immobilize wears off. I'm not sure if you're quite understanding what I'm saying.

And with the transferred debuffs, like I said, they can't be resisted or avoided under any circumstance. The spark may purify AFTER I transfer the debuffs, but if I QPQ'd after/as they sparked, they'd still get the silence and other debuffs transferred. And the only part of QPQ that can be resisted by tidal is the silence that comes with the skill, but the transferred debuffs are indeed unavoidable. And if I make a silence one of the transferred debuffs, then that becomes unavoidable as well. This is why the three second silence from QPQ can be avoided by tidal, but if I expel myself in the middle of QPQ channeling, then the nine second silence that I transfer to you CANNOT be avoided.

QPQ does not transfer through a spark, chatted up a few faction mates about it. You may have been getting it off right after a spark or something, similar to a BM landing a stun right after a spark, but as for actually transferring during the spark discharge... it won't. If you can show me any proof otherwise, such as a video, then please do so. It's still relevant though, as none of my arguments for the Sin winning involve counting QPQ.

I get what you're saying about the freeze, I just doubt that you could time it that well. Especially while kiting, because you have to take take skill casting into consideration, if you're off by even a little they'll end up on the ground. Freeze debuffs don't stack, so if you use it too soon it'll just be ignored, and even a second late and they're on the ground. And so what if you do land it? An extra few seconds of attacks? Honestly the sin could easily Occult Ice you before you kite out of range, or force stealth as you start trying to land attacks.

The sin will still have first hit advantage if he's on gaurd, because you have to run around and look for him. Sure, you're ready to tab target, but the sin will already have you targetted, all they have to do us use the skill. You have to actually target them and then use your skill, and you're at a chi disadvantage. Using that many sparks when you won't unstealth a sin 100% unless you're at a close range seems pointless to me.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

I usually don't time it so well that they don't touch the ground, although that does happen on occasion. Usually they do touch the ground before getting immobilized again. This is when they try to tele-stun which results in them being stuck for the whole eight seconds, or stealth away, which makes it extremely easy to bring them out with edged. And when they do stealth, it is pretty much 100% unless there are other targets around that they could've tele'd to during stealth, but most Sins aren't smart/fast enough to do that. So while they're sitting in stealth immobilized, I walk near the area where I know they are and use Edged Blur.

And I'll double check the QPQ thing next time I get on. Because I'm almost sure that when idiot Sins try to tackling slash me out of stealth and then demon spark, I transfer it back and silence them before they start attacking me, which would mean either I time that just right every time, they're lagging between demon spark casting time and auto-attacking, or I am able to silence them and transfer debuffs during the spark.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

I usually don't time it so well that they don't touch the ground, although that does happen on occasion. Usually they do touch the ground before getting immobilized again. This is when they try to tele-stun which results in them being stuck for the whole eight seconds, or stealth away, which makes it extremely easy to bring them out with edged. And when they do stealth, it is pretty much 100% unless there are other targets around that they could've tele'd to during stealth, but most Sins aren't smart/fast enough to do that. So while they're sitting in stealth immobilized, I walk near the area where I know they are and use Edged Blur.

And I'll double check the QPQ thing next time I get on. Because I'm almost sure that when idiot Sins try to tackling slash me out of stealth and then demon spark, I transfer it back and silence them before they start attacking me, which would mean either I time that just right every time, they're lagging between demon spark casting time and auto-attacking, or I am able to silence them and transfer debuffs during the spark.

Whenever I'm frozen for a long amount of time I tend to wait it off a bit, because I know I won't die from one or two attacks, then tele stun. Only time I'd tele stun would be to avoid getting hit by a triple spark, but force stealth would do the job just as well.

I'm thinking that when you landed QPQ you stared the channeling while they were discharging the spark but it landed after the resist went away. Some people will start channeling a seal/stun/sleep at the last second of someone's spark so that it hits them right as the resist is gone, it's rather useful when you can time stuff like that.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Usually that's what I would try to do; if I see a Sin demon spark at me from a distance, I wait for a few seconds, tele-stun, QPQ expel onto them for the nine second silence, then blade affinity, heartseeker, etc.
But when you're standing right next to them and immobilized, I want to try to get that immobilize and silence onto them as soon as possible, because I learned quite a while ago that 5APS does a very good job of interrupting the channeling of pretty much anything non-instant.

And lol, normally I'd agree with you on the frozen thing, but it's quite easy to kill a Sin with modest refines on armor/a charm if they don't have deaden on during the eight seconds that they're immobilized. Especially if my tele-stun isn't in cooldown.

Edit: This is assuming all of my attacks aren't hitting for one damage. XD I hate when Sins get lucky.

SoulPlay - Heavens Tear

heres a talking point r9 seeker full vit sharded 5 base vit = 32k buffed hp

oh btw people forget its poss to stun lock with a seeker to ? not as accurate as blademaster but will work with practice.

Okeano - Harshlands

SoulPlay - Heavens Tear wrote: »

heres a talking point r9 seeker full vit sharded 5 base vit = 32k buffed hp

So is a BM in the same gears, what's your point? I wasn't aware that R9 came with auto +12.

SoulPlay - Heavens Tear

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

So is a BM in the same gears, what's your point? I wasn't aware that R9 came with auto +12.

my point was this thread is full of "ohhh ill drop you before your charm ticks" and "this will sparks that".

what r9 blademasters guess u missed everyone has no HP in this game anymore.

even still demon spark lets say 500 damage hits 25 times ...... id tank your spark just for the lols

Okeano - Harshlands

SoulPlay - Heavens Tear wrote: »

my point was this thread is full of "ohhh ill drop you before your charm ticks" and "this will sparks that".

what r9 blademasters guess u missed everyone has no HP in this game anymore.

even still demon spark lets say 500 damage hits 25 times ...... id tank your spark just for the lols

No one said "oohh I'll drop a R9 full +12 before your charm ticks". Like I said, R9 armor doesn't come with full +12.

SoulPlay - Heavens Tear

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

No one said "oohh I'll drop a R9 full +12 before your charm ticks". Like I said, R9 armor doesn't come with full +12.

i said nothing about full +12 i said,

"heres a talking point r9 seeker full vit sharded 5 base vit = 32k buffed hp"

i was changing the ever dragging on same post copy paste replies.

but seen as you had to put ur little troll nose in and turn it into what it never was,

i cant see much killing that tbh maybe only a psychic ?

cause i tell you fact even a dumb *** seeker who tanks aps sparks would still live with 8k-ish spare hp

Joshcja - Sanctuary

SoulPlay - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i said nothing about full +12 i said,

"heres a talking point r9 seeker full vit sharded 5 base vit = 32k buffed hp"

i was changing the ever dragging on same post copy paste replies.

but seen as you had to put ur little troll nose in and turn it into what it never was,

i cant see much killing that tbh maybe only a psychic ?

cause i tell you fact even a dumb *** seeker who tanks aps sparks would still live with 8k-ish spare hp

unless seekers get more standing hp than bm's magically (oh no 1 point more hp per vit!) you'll need to be +12 and buffed to even touch that kind of hp http://pwcalc.com/524171ebdfcf1e3f full vit stone full +12 rank 9 seeker will barely break 31k with barb buffs.

and fully buffed rank 9 HA's dont do much more than endlessly charm tick each other in a hilarious manner

SoulPlay - Heavens Tear

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

unless seekers get more standing hp than bm's magically (oh no 1 point more hp per vit!) you'll need to be +12 and buffed to even touch that kind of hp

and fully buffed rank 9 HA's dont do much more than endlessly charm tick each other in a hilarious manner

i understand that it would end up being full +12 (did calculators on release) i was keeping the thread rolling within means of its title.

with the way the game is atm with the aps craze, not many players *there are some* of any race have much more than 20k hp.

this is what i had in mind when posting the hp, how will these players cope can u imagine that running through you TW lol