Fixing APS fixes Sins

Kalvas - Heavens Tear

Thus far, everyone has been QQing about sins with rank9 gear thats been refined to +10 or higher.

There is, however, a group that everyone has been ignoring: the players who have sins who DO NOT posses rank9 gear thats been insanely refined. The only item on my sin thats been refined higher than +1 is my wep. My sin has an aps of 1.67. The ONLY ways i can hit 2.00 is with either Sage Slipstream Strike (which is a 30% chance, and only lasts 3 seconds), a clerics RB, or with Genie Wind Shield (which I do NOT have on my genie). I doubt Ill ever hit lvl 100, and its VERY unlikely Ill ever get nirvana or rank9 gear. And, since Im a Sage sin, i dont get an aps boost from my triple spark.

So, in my opinion, if you want to combat the APS craze, theres one thing that will help: cap APS to around 3.33 or so. Whether its done to just sins or to every class, it doesnt matter. Cap the aps, and either nix the sins Cat Like Tread skill, or give every class an equivalent of the sins Sharp Observer. Those 2 things would help a great deal, in my opinion.

Wunderkind - Dreamweaver

Kalvas - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Thus far, everyone has been QQing about sins with rank9 gear thats been refined to +10 or higher.

There is, however, a group that everyone has been ignoring: the players who have sins who DO NOT posses rank9 gear thats been insanely refined. The only item on my sin thats been refined higher than +1 is my wep. My sin has an aps of 1.67. The ONLY ways i can hit 2.00 is with either Sage Slipstream Strike (which is a 30% chance, and only lasts 3 seconds), a clerics RB, or with Genie Wind Shield (which I do NOT have on my genie). I doubt Ill ever hit lvl 100, and its VERY unlikely Ill ever get nirvana or rank9 gear. And, since Im a Sage sin, i dont get an aps boost from my triple spark.

So, in my opinion, if you want to combat the APS craze, theres one thing that will help: cap APS to around 3.33 or so. Whether its done to just sins or to every class, it doesnt matter. Cap the aps, and either nix the sins Cat Like Tread skill, or give every class an equivalent of the sins Sharp Observer. Those 2 things would help a great deal, in my opinion.

3.33 will do nothing for the problem. Everyone says it, but no one knows what the hell it would actually do to squad dynamics if it was really done. Would it stop solo/duo'ing? Yes, but just TT I can still do lower TTs with 3.33, and on top of that solo FC's. Now you take a big nerf from 5.0 to 3.33 for BMs, Claw Barbs, Other sins and all you arcanes can kiss ever even being remotely introduced into a squad goodbye. If you think 5.0s stuck to all 5.0 squads now oh you would QQ more after their damage gets nerfed and they become SUPER strict with who is in their squads.

Venomthekill - Heavens Tear

well at least there are a couple of you that can think. Looks like alot of people didnt look at some previous good posts about aps vs. sin just plain op. If you look at my first post and I think a couple other posts that speak the truth. 5 aps is not op.

esp for pvp. If u see and char spark up you simply move out of the way or seal them. Havent u ever seen a 5 aps char spark up then the boss moves, totally blows the aps ability. I have a mean looking wizzy and anytime someone sparks on me, that is their kiss of death lol. I simply seal them, wait 3 seconds and pew pew OR just run becuase they are sparking...cant do that against a sin

it something different when a char can SPARK or STUN from stealth.

on my first post i had 6 points to why sins are op. Here is another point...their stealth level is so high that once someone hits 90s u bassically can see them without a apo. Maybe a good solution would be to make detection level actually useful- if they are the same actual level you can see them. Sins also have a passive to raise their detection level, i gues that would be my 7th point from my orginal post LMAO. I can think of more and more things about a sin that is great while i cant think of any limitations that a sin would have...ITS NOT 5 APS that is so crazy unless they can walk up to u without knowing it, stuning u first without you knowing, or jumping to their target which is a skill i hate of theirs >.<

Quilue - Sanctuary

The reason people complain about 5.0 sins is that there should be a balance between DPS and DPH in PvP. Just as BMs don't get to 5.0 with axes or spears, so shouldn't sins be able to attack so fast with daggers. The devs have provided plenty of ways for sins to hit hard, the class' skill set and endgame equipment clearly point to a physical nuke class. They don't need to hit quickly as well.

Other OP aspects of the class are still there, sure, but this is a fundamental imbalance that should be addressed nonetheless.

Easiest fix would be decrease in dagger base speed. Sins that want to 5.0 can still use claws in PvE like barbs and archers have restatted to do.

TheDan - Sanctuary

As OP as the class is, the majority of people playing the classes don't have the skill or intellectual capacity to play it effectively. I guess that's a balance... somewhat? b:chuckle

The sins that try to gank me in DT fail so hard when they override each other's headhunt stuns and I use badge of courage, vac powder and counter stun. Then roll them both. b:surrender

Tigriss_o - Raging Tide

Venomthekill - Heavens Tear wrote: »

well at least there are a couple of you that can think. Looks like alot of people didnt look at some previous good posts about aps vs. sin just plain op. If you look at my first post and I think a couple other posts that speak the truth. 5 aps is not op.

esp for pvp. If u see and char spark up you simply move out of the way or seal them. Havent u ever seen a 5 aps char spark up then the boss moves, totally blows the aps ability. I have a mean looking wizzy and anytime someone sparks on me, that is their kiss of death lol. I simply seal them, wait 3 seconds and pew pew OR just run becuase they are sparking...cant do that against a sin

it something different when a char can SPARK or STUN from stealth.

on my first post i had 6 points to why sins are op. Here is another point...their stealth level is so high that once someone hits 90s u bassically can see them without a apo. Maybe a good solution would be to make detection level actually useful- if they are the same actual level you can see them. Sins also have a passive to raise their detection level, i gues that would be my 7th point from my orginal post LMAO. I can think of more and more things about a sin that is great while i cant think of any limitations that a sin would have...ITS NOT 5 APS that is so crazy unless they can walk up to u without knowing it, stuning u first without you knowing, or jumping to their target which is a skill i hate of theirs >.<

Quite frankly not everyones PCs can show that. My current PC can only handle showing the orb around the cleric with BB or what ever its called. sorry a bit out of it. It don't tell me when I'm in range of the skill so I keep myself in the orb around the cleric. Gotta remember not everyones PC can show what everyone elsxe can see.

Naltienne - Dreamweaver

i might be a noob at this game and all, but isnt the idea of an assassin to kill something before said thing can react?

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

Naltienne - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i might be a noob at this game and all, but isnt the idea of an assassin to kill something before said thing can react?

Yes that is the job of the assassin but one of the main problems is that as soon as the assassin gets that kill it is also more or less guaranteed to be able to escape no other class can do that (except maybe if a wizzy sutra-> town portals XD)

So think of it as risk vs reward, sins are no risk all reward.

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

Assassins suck at group pvp >.> and are aoe's are weak compared to most/all other class's

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

_Nuriko_ - Lost City wrote: »

Assassins suck at group pvp >.> and are aoe's are weak compared to most/all other class's

A smart assassin can be very good at group pvp.

Stealth-> kill -> Stealth-> find a nice quiet place to have a Redbull and wait for cool downs to reset.

With decent gear you'll only be out of stealth for about 3-4 seconds and if things get too hot you just restealth and wait for another shot at it.

Naltienne - Dreamweaver

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes that is the job of the assassin but one of the main problems is that as soon as the assassin gets that kill it is also more or less guaranteed to be able to escape no other class can do that (except maybe if a wizzy sutra-> town portals XD)

So think of it as risk vs reward, sins are no risk all reward.

Sounds like my kinda class, shame i dont actually like melee classes in any game ._.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A smart assassin can be very good at group pvp.

Stealth-> kill -> Stealth-> find a nice quiet place to have a Redbull and wait for cool downs to reset.

With decent gear you'll only be out of stealth for about 3-4 seconds and if things get too hot you just restealth and wait for another shot at it.

you forgot about 2 spark subsea>rift from stealth with 150 attack levels

because there will be arcanes standing after that

anwynd

Here is what i think should happen first and foremost cap atk lvl some where between 70-100.Next cat like tread should just be taken away cus sins have way to much stealth lvl for gods sake. With there actual stealth skills they will still have +10 stealth lvl when they are maxed thts good enough imo. Next Shadow escape should cost a spark and it should only last some where between 20-40 seconds imo. Plenty of time to get away sense tht is what its for. Or just get rid of it alltogether and even the playing ground to where if they **** up they have to do some smart thinking to not die and get away like everyone else.Next up is focus mind. I think it should be changed to cost 1 spark and instead of a stupid chance thing it should be reduces damage by 40%-70% type deal.
Now for deaden nerves this skill shouldnt even be in the game. Theres no other skill as OP as this one it doesnt matter how much damage you inflict on a sin well buffed with this there still gonna live and either get away or kill you so i say take it out. Next is tidal protection you sins allrdy have maze steps you dont need another status immune type skill even tho this is a chance skill. If it has to stay make it cost a spark.Next up on the chopping block is deep sting you dont need it you allrdy have enough skills to trap your opponent. Next up is tackling slash i think 2 stuns and a silence is good enough for pvp so i propose tht the immobilize effect doesnt work in pvp. I think chill of the deep should only last for 5 minutes to help with pvp or maby less. Shadow jump and Shadow teleport's teleport range should only be 15 meters so range classes can have tht range advantage for how ever much it counts. Imo Inner harmony's cooldown needs to be atleast 2 times longer or 3 times. Im not sure about this but a guild mate of mine suggested changing raving slash's effect from slowing to reducing physical defense by 20%-40% i dont think tht is a good idea but i thought id throw tht out there to see what everyone thinks of it. Also imho aps just for them should be capped somewhere below 4 aps sense there damage is just so dam high. What do you think of these ideas of mine and my guild mates?

EDIT:wow didnt realize how much i wrote srry lol

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

When i saw "2 spark 5aps"...nvm

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Saw a few posts stating to just delete sins.

But, how about another option? Just delete all other classes except sins. o.o

_Belgarion_ - Dreamweaver

Cap APS for all classes at 3 - sin become less OP'd, archers might start using bows again and BM's might even consider using other weapons

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

All I can say is.. If they nerf APS, then I'm going for R9/180+ attack levels and sage.

But hey, this QQ has been going on for ages.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

anwynd wrote: »

stuff

You do know that these buffs are in-a-sense a make up for the lack of self p def/m def buffs right? Considering they're one of the only classes without hp/def buffs. Archers? They have bow skills and can attack rather far away. Most archers I see kill things before they even get close. Of course this isn't the case with PvP as sins can just get close in stealth.

And to add onto the lack of self defense buffs, sins are melee LA, which makes them a lot squishier than other classes.

The only thing I can agree with is probably SE and DN. Force stealth and gain a spark is pretty OP in my opinion. And Deaden Nerves is more or less a "second chance" without dying, as opposed to the next closest skill, the Mystic's pre-revive.

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

On my sin in pvp, the moment i unstealth im tab targetted by like 5 people and ganked >_>; at least group pvp lol. And the buffs we have are to actually let us stand a chance. BP is almost useless in pvp, the hp we get back is pathetic. Wolf emblem is nice for the extra crit damage. Were a LA class, our Mdef and Pdef are lower then any other class's. Yeah yeah Archers are LA to, but they have a 30m range or a little longer depending on the weapon. (but im a veno whose LA QQ) thats your own damn fault lol.

ILubby - Raging Tide

I agree with what Asterelle wrote

My husband is a sage sin, low aps, 2 I guess, I'm not sure. The problem I face with dueling him is not the amount of damage he deals, but the mean skills he has like stun/seal/sleep. Even with plume shell on me, he can still stun me first time, nom 25% of my HP (supposing I didn't stack IH) and when first stun wears off he can use the second or seal and finish me off, if I have 1 chance to attack him, I wont 1 shoot him either. And my sleep skill's channeling is too long comparing to his lol

But I think pwi made them have these kind of 'holding the enemy back' skills because of their low survivability. However, on endgame, when (as wrote before ) they have sickly refined and sharded gear, survivability isn't an issue. But after all, it's not just sins, all class balance is pretty much fkd up after 90. You could practice fighting sins with your friends as I do with guildies, try to find a plan to beat them, and as you wrote, you are a rank9 with awesome refines so I think what you need is just a lil practice.

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

@ what Ilubby said

My friends and i do that all the time a group of 4-5 of us will go to a deserted area, and pvp fight, we learn eachothers weakness's and strengths and most of them have become competent in taking on eachother. My assassin is 4aps with all +4 gear (+5 nv daggers) and i only have 3.6k pdef and 3.4k mdef... which is quite pathetic imo, especially since my lvl 71 BM has almost double that at 6.8k >_>;

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

simple all purpose fix would be to simply change one of each of the classes AOEs to require no target. Given how magically squishy 99% of the sins out there are it won't even matter once they get knocked out X amount of times.

5APS is not broken as it requires target to be in front of you and if they cannot get in front of you (due to each class being able to knock them out) it wouldn't matter

the other thing is to make Bramble work PVP again and simply give it to clerics and wizards as well or some form of it.

Quite honestly it is really boring to flip PK on and only find sins which means you have to wait a decade for them to come out of hiding. Similarly on my character on LC it is quite boring playing a sin and also quite dull since there are obviously fewer people playing on the PVP servers (and the fact that every new introduced server is not PVP suggests that it is broken due to this as no one wants to bother with being randomly killed without a chance)

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

Bramble working on magic class's thats fine, i have no problem with that. Put that on a HA armor, and any melee class would kill themselves before there opponent, I fought a 25k hp barb with bramble (yes a duel blablabla where bramble does work) and i managed to die without him attacking once .-.;

@Lyritha

Theres no point to introducing a new pvp server, by keeping only two PVP servers, it ensures that people will pay to stay competitive. By charging more to have better gear to be able to take on other people. With a new server, less competition less reason to charge.

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

_Nuriko_ - Lost City wrote: »

Bramble working on magic class's thats fine, i have no problem with that. Put that on a HA armor, and any melee class would kill themselves before there opponent, I fought a 25k hp barb with bramble (yes a duel blablabla where bramble does work) and i managed to die without him attacking once .-.;

@Lyritha

Theres no point to introducing a new pvp server, by keeping only two PVP servers, it ensures that people will pay to stay competitive. By charging more to have better gear to be able to take on other people. With a new server, less competition less reason to charge.

a sin has stealth and given they can choose to not attack something with bramble or bust out a bow from the archer they undoubtedly played before sin then is it not their fault they got killed by bramble?

LadyAllora - Lost City

I didnt play an archer before a sin, im working on making an archer now tbh lol. And even then i have no skills available to me to help stun a barb from a 30m range or do metal attacks like an archer can. The most i can do is hope i crit my *** off in that short 20m range before the *insert class here* is upon me.

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

LadyAllora - Lost City wrote: »

I didnt play an archer before a sin, im working on making an archer now tbh lol. And even then i have no skills available to me to help stun a barb from a 30m range or do metal attacks like an archer can. The most i can do is hope i crit my *** off in that short 20m range before the *insert class here* is upon me.

Oops >.> meh bad thats me haha

Quilue - Sanctuary

I'm just going to talk about one aspect of the assassin class. When discussing balance, what people need to do is put the class in perspective of other classes, especially other classes with similar roles.

With that said, an endgame archer can stun and kill someone in a few shots if the opponent does not do anything about it (ie: genies, apoc). A BM can kill someone during its much longer stun duration as well.

Similarly, an assassin should be able to kill someone during its stun duration if the opponent do not react fast enough. This we need to realize. This is what the class is entitled to.

The BM's stuns are long, and has increased even more so with the addition of Occult Ice, but the BM's actual prospect of stun locking someone is subject to enormous uncertainties in combat where its target is in the air and kiting, and where its target has access to anti stun skills.

The archer's stun is 3.5s (4.5 if Sage). While the archer's stun is a lot shorter, the possibility of landing the stun is increased enormously due to the archer's longer attack range. That is why the stun also has 10% chance of failing.

There is another aspect to it. If the archer fails to kill during its stun duration, the archer is still at a distance away from its opponent, so the archer can keep kiting.

The BM is right up to its opponent, if the BM fails to kill, it is in range of all of the opponent's attacks. Thus BMs have the option to lock additional stuns.

From there you see a balance between a stun that is much more likely to land compared to a stun that takes effort to land.

It doesn't take effort to land an assassin stun due to its ability to teleport and to attack from stealth. The assassin can also go into stealth should it fail to kill similar to how an archer would kite away. In that sense, the assassin stun should be comparable to an archer stun. I don't see why Demon Headhunt has to last so long. It's especially **** chained with Occult Ice. The devs must of thought that hey! Demon Drake Bash lasts 7.5s and costs a spark, so should Demon Headhunt last similarly because it costs 2 sparks!

Herein lies a problem. The devs chose to designate one of the assassin class' few stuns to a 2spark, and I find it completely stupid. Because the assassin's damage output massively overshadows a BM's, because the assassin has the option to go stealth upon failing to kill, and because the assassin has no problem actually landing its stun, its stuns should cost no chi but have less duration, similar to archers.

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

Does demon headhunt last that long o.O thought it was maybe 6 seconds at most. And BM's lost the art of stunning like they once had, no longer do you see most BM's go out and get a 45+ second stun lock going(yes its possible, ive had it done on me)

Quilue - Sanctuary

lvl 10 HeadHunt is 7s, Demon 8s. Someone confirm or prove me wrong. Don't give me a screen of the skill description either, cuz players have timed it to be longer.

The whole point is that assassins shouldn't even get a stun duration comparable to BMs. Even 6s is way too long. Combine this with the possibility of being Sealed and immobilized afterward and the lock is even longer.

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

My headhunt is only lvl 9 im to cheap to pay for lvl 10 but its at 4.8 seconds, and i know from personal experience it doesnt last longer then that >_>