What Are Veno's Major Weaknesses in PvE?

tweakz

Spliffany - Lost City wrote: »

he / she meant a HA build veno by "fox form veno". so their statement is valid: HA build has higher pattack, leech deals more dmg

The statement isn't valid. If they'd said HA, then it could be argued. It's already been pointed out that Fox Form doesn't = HA, so they deliberately stated Fox.

his / her statement was that the fox build veno is in fox already while attacking the mob / boss, so can just use leech every now and then to gain some hp w/o the need to switch to fox to do so which is a significant lack of dmg for 6 seconds for an AA veno in their opinion.

You can't use metabolic boost in fox; argument invalid.

although i'm pure magic, i think it just depends on ur playing style. even LA works if u know how to use it, although it's def not preferable in endgame. AA vit build is still fine in endgame tho till u can refine high enough. at least for pvp and tw.

The only people making valid arguments for LA are the ones that have Archer or Assasin alts to share equips with. They don't argue that it works. Just about anything "works"; use of ambiguity doesn't = not fail. Claw wizzies work for example. You fail to give any example as well, so you don't even make a point here.

u say she prolly won't be able to herc tank warsong mobs because of the nerfed pet heal of a HA veno, then he / she says that they don't need herc to tank there as they can tank it themselves in fox. so as long as the mob is tanked, both way r fine i think.

I can tank groups of mobs there, changing the point doesn't win a debate.

Spliffany - Lost City

The statement isn't valid. If they'd said HA, then it could be argued. It's already been pointed out that Fox Form doesn't = HA, so they deliberately stated Fox.

for everybody with the ability to read and UNDERSTAND what they read it was pretty obvious what he / she was talking about.

You can't use metabolic boost in fox; argument invalid.

Nobody talked about metabolic. But whatever, u use metabolic in human, but u can do it only every 5 minutes / 3 minutes. He / she used leech every 6 seconds. So ur argument doesn't do anything. It was just about switching to Fox and the fact that this would gimp ur dmg. But i stated myself that this is kinda wrong.

The only people making valid arguments for LA are the ones that have Archer or Assasin alts to share equips with. They don't argue that it works. Just about anything "works"; use of ambiguity doesn't = not fail. Claw wizzies work for example. You fail to give any example as well, so you don't even make a point here.

I used to be LA 2 years ago from lvl 70 on. So i am sure that i can tell u that it works. It's just that the HA/AA-hybrid-build became more famous later on. And worked better after anni packs and CV stuff being widely available.
I said myself that the LA build isn't preferable in endgame, but still can't be compared to a fist mage in any way, as a LA veno is still able to use all his skills.

Only cause AA is the best build for u, it doesn't mean that it's for every1. Veno is a class that gives a bit more flexibility on how to gear and play ur class. Every1 plays for different reasons. And in the end it's just about having fun. So u should learn to accept other one's opinion. I said accept which means that u don't have to share the same opinion. Otherwise i'd call ur build fail as long as u don't have full R9.

tweakz

Spliffany - Lost City wrote: »

Only cause AA is the best build for u, it doesn't mean that it's for every1. Veno is a class that gives a bit more flexibility on how to gear and play ur class. Every1 plays for different reasons. And in the end it's just about having fun. So u should learn to accept other one's opinion. I said accept which means that u don't have to share the same opinion. Otherwise i'd call ur build fail as long as u don't have full R9.

1) Never said AA was best build
2) Never said it was for everyone
3) Any class can use any type of armor
4) What does fun have to do with this discussion?
5) Discussion isn't about opinion.
6) Make a point or gtfo.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

Getting more and more obvious that tweakz is just a troll, lets ignore it =D

With my build I actually dont use skills anymore when engaged with single enemies. Since I just flip HP/MP when HP gets closer to 50% than I like. If enganging more than one enemy I always fire off the Befudding mist due to its spray AoE. Otherwise any skill use is a lowered DPS. (Bosses gets my debuffs ofc)

PK wise skills are more oftenly used, the lowered accuracy from Befudding mist is probably most used. Sometimes I even use the Malefic crush to really kill a unexpecting HA class mana pool. These debuffs are not worth much for the PvE aspect however.

Fox form veno can be taken as any of the more fortified types with a higher amount of str than the avereage AA Veno, it will also yield good bonuses from fox form abilities(180% extra def from equips wont give a huge bonus to a normal AA build, neither would melee mastery etc.), and with a set of gear to specialize towards dealing melee damage in fox form with the ability to go human for magical damage. Wich is the definition I choose to use. Not the "everyone that got the skill levled is one", wich seems to be Trolls opinion.

This is my build, hope it enlighten you on how a Fox form veno can look like: http://pwcalc.com/62e3760b62152052

Spliffany on the other hand shows that shes able to think past her nose and actually take time to read whats been said. Purposely taking points of their given context to argue against it dont make you look good. In best case you seem less intelligent than you used to. b:kiss

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Getting more and more obvious that tweakz is just a troll, lets ignore it =D

Welcome to the veno forums. While tweakz is a troll, he can have some valid points.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Fox form veno can be taken as any of the more fortified types with a higher amount of str than the avereage AA Veno, it will also yield good bonuses from fox form abilities(180% extra def from equips wont give a huge bonus to a normal AA build, neither would melee mastery etc.), and with a set of gear to specialize towards dealing melee damage in fox form with the ability to go human for magical damage. Wich is the definition I choose to use. Not the "everyone that got the skill levled is one", wich seems to be Trolls opinion.

This is my build, hope it enlighten you on how a Fox form veno can look like: http://pwcalc.com/62e3760b62152052

No offense, but the argument and trolling is about terminology on this point. What you are calling a "fox form veno" is commonly referred to on these forums as a HA veno. Specifically, you mix heavy armor with a magic weapon.

Part of the problem with many arcane venos is their inability to see any effectiveness of fox form skills with their gear choice. Many of us, tweakz included, try to stress that fox form skills are independent of the gear you choose and compliment any veno.

In particular, you call out fox form itself and the added p.def. While it's true that in the raw numbers you get a greater return on the p.def increase with heavy armor, it actually is more beneficial to an arcane veno due to diminishing returns. While a heavy armor veno will get a higher raw gain in p.def, the arcane veno will generally get a higher increase in damage reduction from that increased p.def.

And just as food for thought- I met a veno a couple years ago who used full arcane armor, but her str stat was almost kept high enough to wear current level HA. She kept her dex at 5. She also wore a pair of CoA rings since they give you both magic and physical attack and had a different set of ornaments that she used when in mage form and fox form. She never wore HA, but the extra strength gave her a higher physical attack and a touch more p.def. I can't say that I agree with this build, but it worked for her. But it goes to show that fox form doesn't imply HA.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Spliffany on the other hand shows that shes able to think past her nose and actually take time to read whats been said. Purposely taking points of their given context to argue against it dont make you look good. In best case you seem less intelligent than you used to. b:kiss

tweakz may be a stubborn troll, but I assure you, he does read posts and at least in this case hasn't taken things out of context.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

It is considered taken out of context when he takes the "pros" out of the example where they are useful, and put it into an example of wich they arent useful to argue against it. My initial statement was that a fox form veno. Even tho alot of people consider all HA Venos as fox form, that is not really right. As Ive met HA Venos who mainly used -chan gear and a pataka. Makes an effective pea shooter for sure, but the DPS in fox form would be alot lower than a heavy armor that actually target fox form as a main source of DD. My examples was to show what you could do to make your grinding as a HA veno easier on HP consumption without a large waste of DPS loss mid-combat. Then he placed this up against an AA build, where even tho you CAN use the same tricks, its not at the same level of effectiveness. Based on taking this out of context, he argued that my statement was invalid. b:bye

What you are calling a "fox form veno" is commonly referred to on these forums as a HA veno. Specifically, you mix heavy armor with a magic weapon.

Im well aware that the actual % of phy damage reduction gained is higher for an AA Veno. Still that dont make fox form particuarily effective for combat. A strength build AA, even tho Im sure the damage in fox form is considerably higher than a normal AA, and probably even LA. It will lack alot of accuracy for melee use, the magic will be just as weak as a HA or LA build, and the HP of a pure build.

All magic weapons are not equally good for a fox form build. Wands yields less avereage damage and requires more magic, a pataka got a higher damage range, but its natively only 1.00 giving it a lower dps than both glavies and swords. Glaives is decent enough, but the magic swords gives the best over all damage for a fox form user.

By my defintion a fox form veno specializes towards fox form combat. That means use of garnet shards, -int and other ways to utilize the fox form without necessarily giving up all magic, as this is useful both in PvE and PvP.

And just as food for thought- I met a veno a couple years ago who used full arcane armor, but her str stat was almost kept high enough to wear current level HA. She kept her dex at 5. She also wore a pair of CoA rings since they give you both magic and physical attack and had a different set of ornaments that she used when in mage form and fox form. She never wore HA, but the extra strength gave her a higher physical attack and a touch more p.def. I can't say that I agree with this build, but it worked for her. But it goes to show that fox form doesn't imply HA.

Id tell you to read what I said about how I defined it once more. As that build actually fits my description. It have mroe strength than the avereage AA. A reason its easier to ssimply imply LA and HA for fox form is cause these builds already have str and dex modifiers higher than the normal AA build.

Neyda - Raging Tide

tweakz wrote: »

The statement isn't valid. If they'd said HA, then it could be argued. It's already been pointed out that Fox Form doesn't = HA, so they deliberately stated Fox.

I can tank groups of mobs there, changing the point doesn't win a debate.

Fox Form =/= HA, thats right.
but normaly HA Venos are Foxform Venos, because the have mor PA
so for me HA Veno = Fox Form


btw wasn't it You who needed about 2 Minutes to kill a lvl 22 Mob? b:avoid

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

So much for nicely pointing out why you were getting trolled...

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It is considered taken out of context when he takes the "pros" out of the example where they are useful, and put it into an example of wich they arent useful to argue against it. My initial statement was that a fox form veno. Even tho alot of people consider all HA Venos as fox form, that is not really right. As Ive met HA Venos who mainly used -chan gear and a pataka. Makes an effective pea shooter for sure, but the DPS in fox form would be alot lower than a heavy armor that actually target fox form as a main source of DD. My examples was to show what you could do to make your grinding as a HA veno easier on HP consumption without a large waste of DPS loss mid-combat. Then he placed this up against an AA build, where even tho you CAN use the same tricks, its not at the same level of effectiveness. Based on taking this out of context, he argued that my statement was invalid. b:bye

The pros you listed initially were the effects of the skills, not the damage dealt with them. Nothing was taken out of context.

As you said yourself, -int build venos start to become more of an APS toon than a skill using toon. So really, it starts to break the effectiveness of your build if you start using these skills rather than auto-attack and spark with the occasional debuff.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Im well aware that the actual % of phy damage reduction gained is higher for an AA Veno. Still that dont make fox form particuarily effective for combat. A strength build AA, even tho Im sure the damage in fox form is considerably higher than a normal AA, and probably even LA. It will lack alot of accuracy for melee use, the magic will be just as weak as a HA or LA build, and the HP of a pure build.

Accuracy and evasion are broken with this game. There are ways to get around it.

Also, being arcane doesn't automatically mean that your p.attack sucks.

Your build with all buffs off: http://pwcalc.com/d85555f7d819954e
Comparable arcane with all buffs off: http://pwcalc.com/3aa54eb3ebab5c1d

Yes, you get more base attack with your build, but the arcane build still packs quite a punch and has considerably more magic attack and defense.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

All magic weapons are not equally good for a fox form build. Wands yields less avereage damage and requires more magic, a pataka got a higher damage range, but its natively only 1.00 giving it a lower dps than both glavies and swords. Glaives is decent enough, but the magic swords gives the best over all damage for a fox form user.

Wow. Thanks for the lesson. If you've been on the veno forums as long as many of us, you would have remembered a couple of threads were we talked about APS/DPS venos and specifically the use of different types of magic weapons. We also got into a detailed discussion on when the r8 pataka starts to beat out the Beamhoof slicer. At a certain refine level, that dph overtakes the aps of the sword. Furthermore, patakas tend to have more p.attack+ adds on them than any other weapon.

If you're using the skills, possibly even the skills you called out, you'll probably want a dph weapon anyway since using skills negates the effectiveness of your aps. In this case, a pataka could, in fact, be the best choice.

Sorry, but your statement here is kinda like going on to the BM forums and telling them the difference between the APS/DPS in Axes and Fists.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

By my defintion a fox form veno specializes towards fox form combat. That means use of garnet shards, -int and other ways to utilize the fox form without necessarily giving up all magic, as this is useful both in PvE and PvP.

And I'm telling you that you're describing a HA veno, which pretty much everyone knows specialises in fox form and that your insistence that it be called a fox form veno is the reason you were being trolled.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Id tell you to read what I said about how I defined it once more. As that build actually fits my description. It have mroe strength than the avereage AA. A reason its easier to ssimply imply LA and HA for fox form is cause these builds already have str and dex modifiers higher than the normal AA build.

We try to stress the difference between builds and play styles since there are many venos who are built as AA who think that fox is useless to them and some venos who are build as melee who think that mage is useless to them.

Arcane, LA, HA, -int, crit, and channel are all different builds.

Mage vs. fox are playstyles that are useful to all builds.

Having more damage doesn't negate the usefulness of skills to other builds. Especially when you talk about the effects that the skills have that aren't related to damage at all.

Neyda - Raging Tide wrote: »

Fox Form =/= HA, thats right.
but normaly HA Venos are Foxform Venos, because the have mor PA
so for me HA Veno = Fox Form


btw wasn't it You who needed about 2 Minutes to kill a lvl 22 Mob? b:avoid

The whole point was that while HA implies fox form, fox form doesn't imply HA.

And no, it wasn't tweakz who needed 2 minutes to kill a lvl 22 mob, that was Yulk. tweakz is a rather foul troll, but I do have to give him credit for knowing what he's doing and talking about a majority of the time.

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear

especially since the Seeker came out. they are like a cross between a veno, with their 'pets', and a cleric, with their buffs, especially the res skill. thats something not even a cleric can do.

its been depressing to see my daughter doing more, better and lvling faster with her seeker. its taken me all the time i've been in the game, on nearly daily, to get where i am, and she is in her 50s already, in the short time the EGs have been out. it looks like they are going to take over from venos, at this rate. and venos without hercs are the lowest of the low ingame as it is....b:sad

Ermosa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What Are Veno's Major Weaknesses in PvE?
no1 needs us in squads lol

__Astarte__ - Dreamweaver

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear wrote: »

especially since the Seeker came out. they are like a cross between a veno, with their 'pets', and a cleric, with their buffs, especially the res skill. thats something not even a cleric can do.

its been depressing to see my daughter doing more, better and lvling faster with her seeker. its taken me all the time i've been in the game, on nearly daily, to get where i am, and she is in her 50s already, in the short time the EGs have been out. it looks like they are going to take over from venos, at this rate. and venos without hercs are the lowest of the low ingame as it is....b:sad

Uhhhhhh...think you're confusing Seekers with Mystics there, fox lady ma'am. XD;;;

Mystics are the ones with the pets. Seekers are the ones running around thinking they're Asoteric Runewolf, what with their SUPER POWERFUL MIGHTY WHIRLING SLAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH moves.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

Wow. Thanks for the lesson. If you've been on the veno forums as long as many of us, you would have remembered a couple of threads were we talked about APS/DPS venos and specifically the use of different types of magic weapons. We also got into a detailed discussion on when the r8 pataka starts to beat out the Beamhoof slicer. At a certain refine level, that dph overtakes the aps of the sword. Furthermore, patakas tend to have more p.attack+ adds on them than any other weapon.

R8 Pataka and Beamhoof SLicer are not really comparable weapons. Difference in refine level and starting level makes the comparison uneven. As I stated earlier, when I fight I use the skills to take use of their effects. It lowers my DPS for a second or two, but then my normal DPS will continue without any interruption after skill use. Using a pataka means skill use, but the build I am promoting here really dont take any benefit from the large attack span with the slower hits. As Ive defined what I mean by fox form build, it should be rather obvious Im not talking about the more sluggish attacks for main DPS. Skills Ive called out have been to DECREASE HP CONSUMPTION and NOT to INCREASE DPS.

The pros you listed initially were the effects of the skills, not the damage dealt with them. Nothing was taken out of context.

As you said yourself, -int build venos start to become more of an APS toon than a skill using toon. So really, it starts to break the effectiveness of your build if you start using these skills rather than auto-attack and spark with the occasional debuff.

Arguing with yourself, nice touch. Again, using skills for side effects(part 1 there) and not as a source of DDing(Wich is implied in part 2). Its simply listed skills that a HA Veno will be able to use more effectively to keep HP up without sacrificing a very large amount of damage comppared to a caster.

Yes, you get more base attack with your build, but the arcane build still packs quite a punch and has considerably more magic attack and defense.

I also note your considerably lower amount of HP and actual physical damage per second. Really not sure what youre trying to show here.

And I'm telling you that you're describing a HA veno, which pretty much everyone knows specialises in fox form and that your insistence that it be called a fox form veno is the reason you were being trolled.

Now saying that all HA Venos specialize in fox form is simply wrong. Wich I tried to imply with the example of the -chan full HA Veno. It is a fox form veno when it specialize in DDing in fox form, wich both LA and HA builds are fully capable of. Being one tracked on fox builds will just make some really fun ones slip youur eyes.

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear

yes, you're right, i did mix the names up.
but they still moving into the niche that venos had, or so it seems to me, as well giving clerics competition with people who dont know the full range of a cleric's skills. yes the mystic has some great sklls- love that res bubble, though it looks weird...but i worry about venos going the way of the barb....b:sadno matter how OPed the mystic may be, they are still limited to a freaking ugly pet as their strong arm. and here i've thought for years nothing could top the herc for ugly. this thing is scary ugly...

__Astarte__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Uhhhhhh...think you're confusing Seekers with Mystics there, fox lady ma'am. XD;;;

Mystics are the ones with the pets. Seekers are the ones running around thinking they're Asoteric Runewolf, what with their SUPER POWERFUL MIGHTY WHIRLING SLAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH moves.