What Are Veno's Major Weaknesses in PvE?

Xoria - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

More like 1 shot.
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When's the last time you TW? Amp, purge, both require getting close making you an easy 2 hit target. 2-4 hit kill from a distance before they know what's hitting them = more effective. Only ones worth purging / amping are barbs or very high end players.

Did a TW this past weekend. Sorry, no, very few things 1 shot me, even in TW against players with "better" gear. I've taken an Arma from a 30k+ HP barb and only received 200 damge. It's all how you can play and use at your disposal. The same can be applied to a fox purging and amping. There are such things as charms, genie skills and the like to by you time to get in there and amp/ purge. Not to mention Sage Purge is oh-so-lovely.
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Also: it might just be Sanctuary venos are a bit more cowardly than the other servers' venos. They turn tail to rez their pet and then come back for more.

Cocobelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

DDing is worse than using BB on a cleric. 1 maxed Wield Thunder costs around 480MP by itself.

b:surrender In the end, BB is my LEAST MP consuming skill at my disposal.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

As for TW purging is key imo. Cata barbs gets easier to take down by a whole lot +Crush vigor on a target that can take alot of hits basicly keeps their chi levels too low to utilize spark skills. As for other "high value" targets of the purge is AA. Why? Cause the combination of Belll + Vanguard can realy hamper your pet attacks, and leaves them vulnrabable for other types of attack.

I think our biggest weakness in PvE has been mentioned once before and was more or less ignored: People dont realize they need or should want us in their squads. Wether its poorly skilled venos that got the blame, or simply the high amount of ignorant 5 aps crazed newcomers I dont really care.

Amp, ironwood, Myriad and the occasional Sage degen or Demon myriad are excellent debuffs that can really speeden up a squad. If you invest in pet debuffs, those can prove helpful as well(Sage and demon, if it procs, ironwwod will however be better options than the Pierce skill 40%/100%>36%)

Purge for some bosses as well, TT 2-X, Nirvana or last FC boss is a welcoming sight for most squads.

I use a fox form based build myself, and can keep up damage wise with most of the 4 apsed archers and BMs(Sins shouldnt be spoken of), so DD wise I cant say we are that weak. However, it will end up on your playstyle.

Venos shouldnt be taken too lightly in PvP either, we got great versatility. Magical attacks for the Heavy armors and hard to hit LA, physical attack skills + Pets for the squishies. A BM that met a decent PvP veno wont marrow against one again~

Night night

tweakz

Cocobelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

DDing is worse than using BB on a cleric. 1 maxed Wield Thunder costs around 480MP by itself.

Gain MP by sparking, chi gain of 30% 50% of the time for sage wield thunder, Demon gets metal def reducer (kill faster= save MP). BB takes 2 sparks that could be used for MP recovery.

Regardless of skills and combining them together, venos are still considerably weaker compared to wizards/psychics.

Why keep repeating this without showing something for it? We have sticky posts in this forum promoting vit builds. Of course there's going to be a lot of weak venos around.

That's the same with every class. The only difference is that we have skills that help us regain mana. As you said, it really depends on your playing style.

Yes, it's the same for every class - the point. Yet you are wrong about recovery. Wiz has Glacial Embrace, Wellspring Quaff, and Spark Eruption. My wiz with significantly less mag has over 16,000 MP with Wellspring, while my veno is ~10k (if not using Fox Form). 20% return on Spark Eruption is much more significant on Wiz. Clerics get Celestial Guardian's Seal and probably something else I've yet to learn. Wiz doesn't get screwed on HP charm by their methods, while Soul Transfusion can eat one up.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

Why keep repeating this without showing something for it? We have sticky posts in this forum promoting vit builds. Of course there's going to be a lot of weak venos around.

To add to her/his statement. Ive fought VEnos and other AA on the same grounds. Ive seen Psys and wizzies hit me for 90k and up. While Venos generally dont hit that hard, and most certainly wont one shot me the same way.

For fun, heres the Two spark attacks I most usually encounter,

Ice dragon, lvl 11 got base magic attack, +500% +13955.

Tempest, lvl 11 got base attack, +400%, +13503.

Nova, lvl 11 got base attack, +300%, +6606.

As for basic attacks the tendency is kinda clear as well, the differences are smaller, but Venos are weaker casters. The casting times are kinda fast, but cant really keep up when the -chan is high on alot of higher level wizzies etc.

YOu wanted something showed, chew on it

tweakz

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To add to her/his statement. Ive fought VEnos and other AA on the same grounds. Ive seen Psys and wizzies hit me for 90k and up. While Venos generally dont hit that hard, and most certainly wont one shot me the same way.

For fun, heres the Two spark attacks I most usually encounter,

Ice dragon, lvl 11 got base magic attack, +500% +13955.

Tempest, lvl 11 got base attack, +400%, +13503.

Nova, lvl 11 got base attack, +300%, +6606.

As for basic attacks the tendency is kinda clear as well, the differences are smaller, but Venos are weaker casters. The casting times are kinda fast, but cant really keep up when the -chan is high on alot of higher level wizzies etc.

YOu wanted something showed, chew on it

BIDS:
Channel 4.0 seconds
Cast 1.6 seconds

Tempest:
Channel 4.0 seconds
Cast 1.5 seconds

Nova:
Channel 3.0 seconds
Cast 1.2 seconds

After the 2 spark aoe's, what is wiz gonna use? -Hailstorm?:

base magic attack plus 3160.0 of weapon damage.

Veno? - Noxious?:

Wood damage
equal to base magic damage plus 200% of weapon damage plus
2296.0. Enemies will also suffer 2296.0

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

After the 2 spark aoe's, what is wiz gonna use? -Hailstorm?:

Why use the least favorable option vs. one of the better Veno spells? And Id not even use Noxious gas, but Ironwood at that point. Compare the right spells if you want a TRUE comparison.

Glacial Snare lvl 11: base magic damage plus 300% of weapon damage
plus 6171.0

Total cast time at native channeling is 4.3 seconds(3.9 with Demon). BIDS slow down your opponenet and buys time, just like Nova will with the (however less likely to occur) chaotic.

Casting times are getting more and more out of the discussion seeing how easy it is to get -chan these days. Without really trying Ive accomplished -33chan on my cleric. That means that the the channeling of Tempest is cut down to less than 3 seconds. And the fact that in all three situations to use these 2 spark attacks: You should make sure theres enough time.

tweakz

With the same amount of -ch, the veno is still going to ch/cast faster. I also added Noxious / Hailstorm because all were AoE to that point. These programmers aren't too shabby at math and considerations. If we can cast 4 spells in the time someone else casts 3, we have a greater chance of one of them being a crit. Also, although it seems like everyone is on an aps craze and forgot how to AoE, I'd still like to think that AoE is the most efficient for all but Nirvana.

MagicEmpress - Lost City

"What Are Veno's Major Weaknesses in PvE? "

None.... Until the pet dies. b:chuckle

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

Ofc the Ven owill cast faster, the casting is already slightly faster, however. The slower the channeling is, the more is gained from -chan gear. half of 4 seconds is more than half of 3 seconds. To add a bit more to why Venos are still the weaker caster:

Base magic attack can be equal on all classes, lets say 10k and a weapon damage of 1.5k. Venos base +300% +6606= 21106, the damage is wood based, so we add wood mastery's 20%. We then get

Nova damage: 25327 (with -33% chan from earlier that is 7914.7ish per second it takes to cast)

As for BIDS, we get the base +500% +13955= 31455 + Aqua spirits 20%

BIDS damage: 37746 (33% chan 8840ish damage per second it takes to cast)

Thats a gap of nearly 1k damage, and the gap will continue to grow with more -chan as the wizzie gets more benefit from that over the Veno due to already slow spells.

Its just to accept that Venos are hybrids in damage and isnt the hardest hitting caster. What Venos have that wizzies dont is a pet, wich both increases DPS and lets a veno solo way more than a wizzie can.

tweakz

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thats a gap of nearly 1k damage, and the gap will continue to grow with more -chan as the wizzie gets more benefit from that over the Veno due to already slow spells.

That gap is cleared in the second AoE hit (Hailstorm vs Noxious). + 900% for Veno as opposed to 700% for Sage Spark. I'm not gonna say that veno is stronger; it's just not nearly as bad as vit venos would have us believe. We are as much DDs as any other caster class.

Krosan - Dreamweaver

What Are Veno's Major Weaknesses in PvE?

Let's compare a venomancer to other classes in PvE:

Grinding:

Melee only mobs
Your basic mob, venos (and all other classes) shouldn't have much problem with them.


Magic mobs
Melee classes dislike regular magic mobs, are even more annoyed by poison stackers and
absolutely hate magic-spam-run mobs. Venos don't give a ****.

Archer mobs
Caster classes hate them, they annoying for melee ones also because they suually run. Venos don't give a ****.

Air mobs
Once again annoying for melee'ers. Venos don't give a ****.

Water mobs
See Air mobs.

Annoying mobs
Remember the sealing fish near Sanctuary? The aoe debuffers in hell? Anykind of aoe mob in general? Guess who doesn't give a ****.

Grinding speed

Yea, a sin might be faster if there's 12398 mobs in a radius of 2m. Otherwise, venos are one of the, if not the fastest grinder in this game for the big majority of the game. We can get outkilled in some cases, like a demon Quickshot archer or a BM grinding on a bunch of melee mobs, but venos can grind Anything fast. Another huge bonus are...

Costs in PvE

..or the lack of them. We got way lower repairs than any melee and way less consumption of mana/hp pots than any other class. If you don't grind at 100% for example you can even stay potless Indefinitely.

Versatility

In squads we can fullfill several roles, the main one being debuffer/DD. We can deal decent damage, can support squad, and can even be an off-hand tank. We can replace
any other class in this game if we're doing something we can solo. This brings me to the next point which is

Solo'ability

The reason we can replace any other class in certain circumstances is because of our meat shield. If you can tank something it means your squad doesn't need a tank. It also means your squad doesn't need a healer. Or you don't even need a squad. Whichever is fine.

Note:
this is generally not recommended, full squads are always better, but if you can't find a damn cleric for FB51 you might as well go and do it and tell the DDs to hold back. an FB taking 10 min longer > waiting for cleric for 30 min. This does apply only to easy dungeons though obviously.

In addition, a veno can kill a lot of stuff in quests, FBs etc. where others simply lack the utility to doso. This especially applies at lower levels. in higher levels several classes can do a lot of stuff solo as well, but compared to caster classes we still own. At level 100 i can still kill FB99 bosses where other casters would get squished or use up a ridiculous amount of potions.

Survivability

Hood, fox form, feral, metabolic boost, soul transfusion. Probably most versatile skillset for survivability ingame. We survive where others get 1-shot. Nuff said.

Aoe potential

This is where we lack a tad bit compared to continuous Aoe classes, but this doesnt even remotely mean we're not good at it. Particularly Nova with the seal ability can be super useful when doing large groups of mobs (like in FC).

Dungeons

Venos are good at every single dungeon ingame basically because you can make every possible run smoother at least via support and debuffing.




TL;DR version

The only PvE ''weakness'' i see in a veno is boss killspeed compared to some classes...but then again, all casters share that problem. At least you can still kill a bunch of stuff others can't. The other ''weakness'' is stupid people who think we can't bring much to a squad because of even more stupid ''I-spam-only-venomous'' venomancers.

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

Krosan - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Let's compare a venomancer to other classes in PvE:

Grinding:

Archer mobs
Caster classes hate them, they annoying for melee ones also because they suually run. Venos don't give a ****. I have a small issue here . Venomancers who lack a range pet do have some problems with certain archer mobs if they tend to group together and run around randomly

[\

overall i agree with ur points.

tweakz

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear wrote: »

overall i agree with ur points.

We got way lower repairs than any melee and way less consumption of mana/hp pots than any other class. If you don't grind at 100% for example you can even stay potless Indefinitely.

-Even that?

Liba - Heavens Tear

Krosan - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Aoe potential

This is where we lack a tad bit compared to continuous Aoe classes, but this doesnt even remotely mean we're not good at it. Particularly Nova with the seal ability can be super useful when doing large groups of mobs (like in FC).

.... Noxious, nova, befuddling mist, Myraid (fox form), Malefic Crush.
Aka, a good veno; Noxious > Nova > Noxious (often steals aggro) so you can go into Foxform > Myraid, and then mist. A good bm will stun the mobs, and you can go back into human, fora final Noxious... if you need it that is .
Admitedly, AOE grinding is hard... but that's why would buy a nix... for fast grinding >D.

Krosan - Dreamweaver

I have a small issue here . Venomancers who lack a range pet do have some problems with certain archer mobs if they tend to group together and run around randomly

If you really don't want a mob to run around you can use your pets aggro skill on it, call pet back so the aggro'ed mob follows and keeps same distance. Drop a spell or two and send in pet for another aggro hit. This should keep the runner more or less in close proximity at all times, is bit annoying to send pet back and forth though.

Even that?

I'll elaborate. We can use up a crapton of mana or we can use up very little. Point is, we can adapt to situations and easily manage how much of what we'll use up at any give moment. Other class cannot do this as effectively as we can. This particularly applies to grinding, bit less to instances.

Admitedly, AOE grinding is hard... but that's why would buy a nix... for fast grinding >D.

Yea, nix is godsent for fast grinding.

tweakz

Krosan - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'll elaborate. We can use up a crapton of mana or we can use up very little. Point is, we can adapt to situations and easily manage how much of what we'll use up at any give moment. Other class cannot do this as effectively as we can. This particularly applies to grinding, bit less to instances.

Wiz and Clerics can spam heal themselves, so less need for HP pots. Wiz gets Max MP increase buff which yields much more MP per eruption along with MP recov shield. Clerics have MP recov buff. Both get more MP, matk, and (mp recov also?) per mag. Any class can burn fast through MP. Veno loses spark (potential to convert to MP) on Soul Transfusion, and wastes time with Nature's Grace. If veno can waste time, and spark for so called better MP consumption: so can the others.

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

-Even that?

,Well venos burn MP fast i agree , especially on squads when u have to transfer DD AoE like mad , switch to fox then human. myriads make it worse

On everyday plain grind however i dont burn that MP , compared to squad situations so yeah i tend to use any pots i find while i do BH or TT and not when i do quests.

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

Krosan - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you really don't want a mob to run around you can use your pets aggro skill on it, call pet back so the aggro'ed mob follows and keeps same distance. Drop a spell or two and send in pet for another aggro hit. This should keep the runner more or less in close proximity at all times, is bit annoying to send pet back and forth though. Yup and that was my point , it takes time and it is annoying for a majority of venos , otherwise there are ways to deal with it.

10chars/

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

my only pve problem nowadays is agro generally. jones blessing adds only to my attack, not my pets. same goes for other classes, you get agro more easily.

at least i would like to lvl my bash beyond lvl5, since its getting harder and harder to get tanks and we are next best substitute and thats not very easy tho with 2 sins and 2 psys in squad.

Krosan - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

Wiz and Clerics can spam heal themselves, so less need for HP pots. Wiz gets Max MP increase buff which yields much more MP per eruption along with MP recov shield. Clerics have MP recov buff. Both get more MP, matk, and (mp recov also?) per mag. Any class can burn fast through MP. Veno loses spark (potential to convert to MP) on Soul Transfusion, and wastes time with Nature's Grace. If veno can waste time, and spark for so called better MP consumption: so can the others.

Not sure what you mean in the bolded part. How are you wasting time with Nature's Grace? And why would you lose spark potential?

I average at about 2-3 spells per mob when grinding and all veno spells cost less in mana than cleric or wizard spells. So not only do i cast less than them, i also do it more efficiently manawise per spell.

My cleric runs our of mana pretty quickly. My wizard takes longer than cleric, but runs out eventually as well. My veno doesn't. And above all this, my veno doesnt sacrifice much killspeed for the sake of mana either (and the killspeed is already above that of a cleric or wiz grinding anyway).

Are you seriously trying to suggest that venomancers mana efficiency while grinding is the same as clerics/wizards?

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

Theres other options to PvE than pet grinding as well. Venos are relatively versatile, and there is one path that havent been actually given any real thought here: Fox form Venos(Heavy armor build).

Some of the good things with the fox form is:

Leech: Limits HP pot consumption, would however use Transfusion if mana pool is full.

Stunning blow: Running mobs stop running, tadaa

Myriad Rainbow: You always got that access now

Can always go human form to do Metabolic boost or Natures grace(Since pool is bigger in human youll actually regain more than 50% when youre back in fox). Youre still able to pet tank, especially if you dont like to run up to those magic mobs. Or you can risk that repair cost and speed up the killing by running in yourself. Been rolling like this for quite a long time now. And opposed to what alot of people seem to think, it far from hampers your ability to take down mobs faster. If youre a lil crazy and go for -int parts as well, youll save your MP entirely by not consuming it with skill use. Hence youll always have soul transfusion to give you full HP.

If geared up properly, the fox form build far out damages the the ordinary Venos as well, making it a small gap to get into more squads in these aps crazed times.

tweakz

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Theres other options to PvE than pet grinding as well. Venos are relatively versatile, and there is one path that havent been actually given any real thought here: Fox form Venos(Heavy armor build).

Some of the good things with the fox form is:

Leech: Limits HP pot consumption, would however use Transfusion if mana pool is full.

Stunning blow: Running mobs stop running, tadaa

Myriad Rainbow: You always got that access now

Can always go human form to do Metabolic boost or Natures grace(Since pool is bigger in human youll actually regain more than 50% when youre back in fox). Youre still able to pet tank, especially if you dont like to run up to those magic mobs. Or you can risk that repair cost and speed up the killing by running in yourself. Been rolling like this for quite a long time now. And opposed to what alot of people seem to think, it far from hampers your ability to take down mobs faster. If youre a lil crazy and go for -int parts as well, youll save your MP entirely by not consuming it with skill use. Hence youll always have soul transfusion to give you full HP.

If geared up properly, the fox form build far out damages the the ordinary Venos as well, making it a small gap to get into more squads in these aps crazed times.

Leech yields the same HP gain for AA as HA. Stunning blow stuns for the same amount of time and Myriad Rainbow works exactly the same.

You'll probably not be able to pet tank more extreme bosses like Xenospace Drake, or mobs like in Warsong.

Your AoE will be crippled as HA. HA is fine, but it does have drawbacks and HA doesn't = Fox Form.

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

Krosan - Dreamweaver wrote: »

TL;DR version

The only PvE ''weakness'' i see in a veno is boss killspeed compared to some classes...but then again, all casters share that problem. At least you can still kill a bunch of stuff others can't.

Really? Maybe this only applies to sage venos but I hardly see a difference in speed time when I solo Blackhole on my veno or bring my BM with a cleric to heal her.

Sage veno on Blackhole --> sage soul degen 20% hp debuff --> amp/heal --> myriad rainbow ---> heal herc --> DD ---> heal/amp ---> heal herc --> DD
or in whatever timing you need on pet.

4.0 aps BM on Blackhole --> celestial eruption ---> cloud eruption ---> HF ---> swap to decides and cyclone heel (decides have chance of HP reduction but % of HP reduction is unknown - and you have to wait for that to proc) ---> HF ---> decides....repeat however and what ever additional skills I like to throw in

Time needed...really don't see much of a time difference.

Krosan - Dreamweaver

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Really? Maybe this only applies to sage venos but I hardly see a difference in speed time when I solo Blackhole on my veno or bring my BM with a cleric to heal her.

Sage veno on Blackhole --> sage soul degen 20% hp debuff --> amp/heal --> myriad rainbow ---> heal herc --> DD ---> heal/amp ---> heal herc --> DD
or in whatever timing you need on pet.

4.0 aps BM on Blackhole --> celestial eruption ---> cloud eruption ---> HF ---> swap to decides and cyclone heel (decides have chance of HP reduction but % of HP reduction is unknown - and you have to wait for that to proc) ---> HF ---> decides....repeat however and what ever additional skills I like to throw in

Time needed...really don't see much of a time difference.

Not sure if i trust what you say, but let's say i do and even so, what you described applies only to a pretty specific situation. Change that BM to 5.0, switch BM for Sin (or possibly even an archer due to STA) or switch the ? mob for a regular boss and the difference in killspeed will be pretty obvious.

Either way, props to you if you take same time as a 4.0 BM...might i ask how high your BMs weapon refine is?

My experience is different.

Last time me and my friends were doing a WB, the max i could pull out of my lvl 100 nix was something like 10-12k per hit (amp+ironwood+extreme poison+HF). Nix hits once per second (let's say you just used pounce).
A fist archer with the probably lowest damage per hit out of all APS classes does around 2.5-3k dmg per hit on a ? boss demon sparked and with 0 debuffs on boss. That's with a +8-10 weapon. So every possible debuff for nix at 1.0 is still less damage than a completely non-debuffed boss for a 4/5APS archer (not even considering crits here).

Weapon refine does play a big role here obviously, but your veno will be roughly at the same speed with a +2 compared +10 wep solo healing, while an APS class won't.

Edit:

Would be great if you could time your 2 characters next time and post results here.

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

1. archer STA wouldn't matter cause sage soul degen is a higher % than sage Archer STA which in turn beats the **** out of demon archer STA. Which is why on World Bosses, TT bosses etc, I will override archer's STA w/their permission, cause most just auto STA so tell me just over wait and override them. Ummm...Duh, sin would kill faster....the crit rate and full aps would do that.

2. decides are +7 w/2 garnet gems (for comparison veno's weapon is a TT99 green at +8 2 sapphire gems)

3. I was specifically comparing my two chars due to #7, BM doesn't have her nirvana leggings, I can't swap in a friend's BM whom my BM is built after, as my decides are untradeable and his have one socket.

4. WB and Blackhole are pretty different in terms of "bosses."

5. Sage amp adds 30% damage as well.

6. I was using herc not nix...nix would be completely idiotic on blackie soloing wise as I get the additional reflect damage off the herc, which I've seen reflect (too bad you can't SS reflect) of over 8k, which since it's suppose to reflect 75% damage makes me O.O about what the actual hit was from Blackie.

7. Blackhole was easy to use as it's a ? mob/Boss as I have solo'd him w/both chars under identical conditions.

8. I didn't say I take the same time as my BM I said didn't notice much of a time difference.

as a side note in case you ask...my BM is Sage; and considering she steals and can hold aggro against a Demon BM with higher refines no need to take that into consideration. Be even easier when she hits 5.0 ROFL

Krosan - Dreamweaver

It's all good. Bottom line is, venos are fast, but we can't compare to full APS toons which is why i listed it as a ''weakness'' because it basically gets us less squad-time endgame. It shouldn't be, but that's how it is unfortunately.

Sometimes i can't even make it clear to people that i'll be responsible for more dmg output (via debuffs) in a squad than the 5th or 6th APS user they take instead of me.

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

Krosan - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It's all good. Bottom line is, venos are fast, but we can't compare to full APS toons which is why i listed it as a ''weakness'' because it basically gets us less squad-time endgame. It shouldn't be, but that's how it is unfortunately.

Sometimes i can't even make it clear to people that i'll be responsible for more dmg output (via debuffs) in a squad than the 5th or 6th APS user they take instead of me.

That's because they're noobs that can't see past the end of the "OMG APS " part to add up the numbers.

It's just like the dumb BMs in the BM forums stating that the only viable build is demon...they can't see beyond the end of their own superiority complex.

Yeah my BM has aps and will be 5.0 at some point, but I'd rather run with a mixed squad than a full aps squad.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

Leech yields the same HP gain for AA as HA. Stunning blow stuns for the same amount of time and Myriad Rainbow works exactly the same.

You'll probably not be able to pet tank more extreme bosses like Xenospace Drake, or mobs like in Warsong.

Your AoE will be crippled as HA. HA is fine, but it does have drawbacks and HA doesn't = Fox Form.

Starting to think you cant read or simply like to argue. As you basicly argue against by taking everything out of context.

Leech on a Foxform Veno vs. an AA Veno is simple. Leech on a fox form veno deals mor damage, does not require a form change and supply your HP ehile engaged in combat. Its far less effective for an AA since it would have to spend time to change form and run up before using the skill to do far less damage for the 6 seconds fox form cools down.

Stunning blow got a similar difference. When using magic you wont have problems with the mob that is running away, since itll stand still and shoot at you. The stunning blow is simply to remove the drawback a foxform veno faces when being a melee build.

AoEs will yield same power as a LA or high Vit veno. Refine on weapon is important either if youre fox form or casting HA.

As for pet tanking, its kinda obvious you dont got HA to let some fat yellow buddha get all the credit. My HA Veno tanks the warsong BOSSES, placing my tanking abilities on par, and likely over, a herc. Taken down Blackhole devourer without a cleric, using crab meat ofc, but its still decent considering I dont have a personal healer on hand every second of my tanking.

tweakz

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Starting to think you cant read or simply like to argue. As you basicly argue against by taking everything out of context.

Leech on a Foxform Veno vs. an AA Veno is simple. Leech on a fox form veno deals mor damage

Funny! You can ONLY use leech in Fox Form!

, does not require a form change and supply your HP ehile engaged in combat. Its far less effective for an AA since it would have to spend time to change form and run up before using the skill to do far less damage for the 6 seconds fox form cools down.

Leech does less dps than normal attacks.

AoEs will yield same power as a LA or high Vit veno. Refine on weapon is important either if youre fox form or casting HA.

-Both LA and Vit being fail builds.

As for pet tanking, its kinda obvious you dont got HA to let some fat yellow buddha get all the credit. My HA Veno tanks the warsong BOSSES, placing my tanking abilities on par, and likely over, a herc. Taken down Blackhole devourer without a cleric, using crab meat ofc, but its still decent considering I dont have a personal healer on hand every second of my tanking.

Sorry, it was Xenospace drake I mentioned, and tanking warsong mobs with Herc not fox.

Please check your reading comprehension; you're wasting our time.

Spliffany - Lost City

tweakz wrote: »

Funny! You can ONLY use leech in Fox Form!

he / she meant a HA build veno by "fox form veno". so their statement is valid: HA build has higher pattack, leech deals more dmg

Leech does less dps than normal attacks.

his / her statement was that the fox build veno is in fox already while attacking the mob / boss, so can just use leech every now and then to gain some hp w/o the need to switch to fox to do so which is a significant lack of dmg for 6 seconds for an AA veno in their opinion.
but i have to say that amp and myriad should be taken into consideration for example, as u would use those while switching to fox. AA veno's switch to fox to use those in first place, not for a marginal "heal" of 800 hp (for demon). and while using amp for example, a HA veno doesn't deal dmg as well. so not rly a loss of damage there.

Both LA and Vit being fail builds.

although i'm pure magic, i think it just depends on ur playing style. even LA works if u know how to use it, although it's def not preferable in endgame. AA vit build is still fine in endgame tho till u can refine high enough. at least for pvp and tw.

Sorry, it was Xenospace drake I mentioned, and tanking warsong mobs with Herc not fox.

u say she prolly won't be able to herc tank warsong mobs because of the nerfed pet heal of a HA veno, then he / she says that they don't need herc to tank there as they can tank it themselves in fox. so as long as the mob is tanked, both way r fine i think.

Please check your reading comprehension; you're wasting our time.

everything he / she posted was a valid answer to ur post... even if u don't agree in certain points