Sin's fault or tank's fault??

_whateverL_ - Heavens Tear
_whateverL_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 35 Arc User
edited March 2011 in Assassin
If a sin steals aggro from tank in caves and dies, is it sin's fault or tank's?
i wonna see what you guys think abt this :P
Post edited by _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear on
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Comments

  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Well, depends on what class is tanking and what the tank is doing.
  • Evict - Heavens Tear
    Evict - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,301 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Sin's. If he wants to show off his over9000 e-peen to the squad, he damn well better expect to take aggro and tank it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dysk is my tasty chimichanga. <3
  • _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear
    _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    Well, depends on what class is tanking and what the tank is doing.
    ok um, class - barb tanking bh 69 pole/nob then sin steals aggro from barb with hook and thorn and makes the whole squad dies
    im sure that's sin's fault?
    well, what if only the sin dies?

    the sin is my friend btw
    he wants to do bh with me and im sooo afraid that he will make the whole squad dies
    it's like, he did it many times already when we were in bh 59
    so should i rez/heal him if he really does steal aggro in my bh 69?
  • _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear
    _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sin's. If he wants to show off his over9000 e-peen to the squad, he damn well better expect to take aggro and tank it.

    LOLOLOL over 9000 b:chuckle
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    ok um, class - barb tanking bh 69 pole/nob then sin steals aggro from barb with hook and thorn and makes the whole squad dies
    im sure that's sin's fault?
    well, what if only the sin dies?

    the sin is my friend btw
    he wants to do bh with me and im sooo afraid that he will make the whole squad dies
    it's like, he did it many times already when we were in bh 59
    so should i rez/heal him if he really does steal aggro in my bh 69?

    When it's Barb tanking, it's harder to tell than if it's other classes tanking. If it was BM or someone else tanking, it would most likely to be Sin's fault. Some Barb don't use FR on boss and you can't really blame anyone for that.

    Auto attack with H&T tends to steal aggro from Barbs even if the Barb was spamming FR. If he's new to the daggers, he might not know this. My question is, how did the whole squad die after he stole aggro and why did he not force stealth when he did steal aggro?

    If the tank is doing its job, either spamming FR or doing as much damage as possible in the case of other classes, then it's up to the Sin to know the limit. If he keeps on taking aggro just let him die whenever he does. He'll learn eventually. Do not risk letting tank die trying to heal your friend.

    Later on when you guys get higher and against normal bosses, he's going to be able to tank most of them so you should heal him when he takes aggro, if he doesn't start out tanking in the first place. But for BH69, he isn't going to last against Pole so might as well let him die and res him when tank does Invoke.
  • _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear
    _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    When it's Barb tanking, it's harder to tell than if it's other classes tanking. If it was BM or someone else tanking, it would most likely to be Sin's fault. Some Barb don't use FR on boss and you can't really blame anyone for that.

    Auto attack with H&T tends to steal aggro from Barbs even if the Barb was spamming FR. If he's new to the daggers, he might not know this. My question is, how did the whole squad die after he stole aggro and why did he not force stealth when he did steal aggro?

    If the tank is doing its job, either spamming FR or doing as much damage as possible in the case of other classes, then it's up to the Sin to know the limit. If he keeps on taking aggro just let him die whenever he does. He'll learn eventually. Do not risk letting tank die trying to heal your friend.

    Later on when you guys get higher and against normal bosses, he's going to be able to tank most of them so you should heal him when he takes aggro, if he doesn't start out tanking in the first place. But for BH69, he isn't going to last against Pole so might as well let him die and res him when tank does Invoke.

    Very useful. Thanks for the information b:thanks
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Just going to say this straight off. Its the sins fault. If they can't tank they shouldn't steal aggro. period. That being said, the barb may have been bad but its still the sins fault because he should have figured out that the barb was bad at keeping aggro sooner.

    When killing mobs and guards, like the miniboss that circles that opens the doors to pyro and the hotub infront of pole and nob, you should get a feel of how much dmg you can do before you rip aggro. Part of what makes a good barb good is the ability to get an immediate feel for how his DDers dd and adjust his aggro accordingly. Maybe debuff less. Maybe debuff more if he can hold aggro easily. Maybe holding back reaming to save chi until amp or HF then spamming like crazy.

    As a DDer you don't need to be as intuned to the barbs aggro ability, but you should have an idea of it so you can check yourself. If you steal aggro its because you weren't paying attention. For instance, I'm on my bm and I had a barb I knew couldn't hold aggro well. He used ream once in a blue moon. So we got to pole, which kills me if I'm unstacked, so I unequip fists and blessing (maybe -int wrists, too). I have no weapon on. So I sit back and do what BMs do, auto attack and HF every 30 seconds. I steal aggro without having my weapon equiped and die. I realized I hadn't seen bleed effect because the barb was reaming every 15 seconds or so. My fault.


    Btw, solution to over aggroers if you're a cleric. Leave them dead for a while to let the barb build lead. If my squadmates have known overaggro problems I'll also announce before we start bosses that I'm only healing the tank. Do they want to volunteer to be the tank? "no,the barbs the tank." Ok, then don't grab aggro because you won't get healed. (I'm not opposed to healing people that grab aggro, I just want people to learn to manage their aggro so that one person recieves all the heals and all the damage for safety puposes).

    Can also suggest they do things like interupt for the barb, and keep rib strike up.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • FatherTed - Dreamweaver
    FatherTed - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,723 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Tell your friend to get a bow, or be more cautious with his attacks. I know sins who also carry a weaker set of daggers for situations like that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Thanks for the sig Ophida :3
  • Fishlips - Harshlands
    Fishlips - Harshlands Posts: 193 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    psy 101 rank 9 EZ pk meat for sin. you have stun and high crt hit rate. and 5 aps. yes you will tank boss form barbs.if a sin with lvl 80+ can pk me EZ then i know your the best in damage .
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Just going to say this straight off. Its the sins fault. If they can't tank they shouldn't steal aggro. period.

    Sais it all.

    Even if barb is an uber-fail that doesn't use fleshream at all (easy to see, besides barb nobody seems to use bleed skills at like 50+), if sin can't tank the damage he shouldn't aggro. That being said, I don't know any sin that never ever aggroed pole during bh (me is guilthy too b:surrender). It's just sins fault if that happens, and we can only hope it won't whipe all squad. I always brought rez scrolls on that bh, and let the cleric know that so that he/she won't try to rez me when it's not possible.
  • KAZMOENEEK - Heavens Tear
    KAZMOENEEK - Heavens Tear Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    sins fault..he/she has to control dmg delt or suffer.Learn your dumb chill of the deep turn on and off..and rib strike..pulse attack..oh if u get aggro and do not want..stop freakin attacking u fools(i see this al lthe time)..if u cant control your dmg..get to the back of the line and use a bow.
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2527935005&dateline=1300027633[/SIGPIC]
    LiVe ThE NigHTmaRe
  • Sereneai - Dreamweaver
    Sereneai - Dreamweaver Posts: 351 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    on pole and nob i prefer to use a bow, because it puts me in range of the clerics AoE heal when he AoEs b:shutup

    however, it has the added advantage of reducing my dps...which helps me not steal aggro!

    aside from that particular situation, it is still our JOB as DDs to not steal aggro.

    sins have tons of options at their disposal to do this:

    Use Chill of the Deep--lowers dps by nerfing aps.

    Use SKILLS (imagine that!)--Rib Strike makes your target deal less damage to your tank, and Subsea Strike increases the damage everyone deals to the target...and both take time to use, meaning you deal less damage, and therefore generate less aggro.

    and finally, take off gear. Jones Blessing ALONE accounts for a whopping 23% of your attack power. so pull it off.


    If a sin steals aggro, it is...THEIR FAULT, 9X% of the time (i have had some steals that were clearly not my fault)
    Things said during a Twizted faction PK session:
    Slayer_of_Souls: you guys are such suck ups. none of you have attacked twid.
    Twiddzly(fac leader): no, sere killed me already.
    Slayer_of_Souls: he's out there waiting for us, isn't he. i'm gonna die.
    Sereneai: b:sin why don't you come find out.
    Kinglkaruga: you go first dule.
  • Wunderkind - Dreamweaver
    Wunderkind - Dreamweaver Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Idiot devs never bothered to adjust barbs, so I blame them. I steal aggro from barbs unsparked, which says it all.
    Currently: pwcalc.com/b4c92dacf1da8c21
  • XSloth - Harshlands
    XSloth - Harshlands Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    95% of the time DDs fault,
    I usally warn them when they die the first time to control thier damage especially if its a sin, and I usually say to use CoD.

    "But were supposed to deal alot of damage"
    when you can tank the boss, go for it. Till then sit back and let the meat shield do his thing,
  • _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear
    _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    KAZMOENEEK - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    sins fault..he/she has to control dmg delt or suffer.Learn your dumb chill of the deep turn on and off..and rib strike..pulse attack..oh if u get aggro and do not want..stop freakin attacking u fools(i see this al lthe time)..if u cant control your dmg..get to the back of the line and use a bow.

    That's just great to describe my sin friend.
    Once he stole aggro at Linus, he kept on attacking - increased speed and used even more skills. He didn't stealth or anything, and at the end, he died.
    I was like ' HAHA SUCK IT!" b:laughb:chuckle
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    sin's fault.

    back when i was doing bh69's, i shadow escaped when i got full agro, to remove my agro from the table.
    [SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
    Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
    youtube.com/user/SkaiPW - Assassin PvE/PvP Videos!
  • TrueHarmony - Archosaur
    TrueHarmony - Archosaur Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    If the sin takes aggro and dies, its the sins fault. If the entire squad dies its the barbs falt, or possibly the clerics lol
    Yeah my sig doesn't match my name...i would say im being all clever and trying to confuse people...but im really just too lazy to make a new one
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Chickpea - Lost City
    Chickpea - Lost City Posts: 165 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    TrueHarmony - Archosaur wrote: »
    If the sin takes aggro and dies, its the sins fault. If the entire squad dies its the barbs falt, or possibly the clerics lol

    Have to agree, the squad should not die in FB69 just because the sin gets agro. Sins aren't even a ranged class they wont make the boss move around and aoe on the squishes if they steal aggro.

    Its the sins fault for getting himself killed of course. But the partywipe is probably caused by a lack of communication between the cleric and the barb. Maybe the cleric didn't inform that he/she was ressing and the tank died. Or the barb was a bit slow biting after the sin died and boss went after someone else and started to aoe on the ranged people.
  • XRyukenxx - Heavens Tear
    XRyukenxx - Heavens Tear Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    im pretty sure force stealth resets the aggro for a sin back to 0 even if the sin doesnt get aggroed by the boss. so that should be used every once in a while just to reset ur aggro.

    also another good thing to do is to just use chill of the deep to lower ur aps and DDing for a bit as barb gains more and more aggro. once u think barb has enough aggro then u can DD away. but NEVER spark. dont spark even once. you gain aggro insanely fast just by sparking once... the only time you should spark is if you think you can handle aggro. otherwise dont do it.

    but if u fail at this and take aggro and cause a squad wipe just blame the barb. even if it is ur fault ppl will usually beleive its the barbs fault and the barb will in tern blame the cleric and leave the squad. which makes for some good lawlzy drama.
  • _UnGodly_ - Lost City
    _UnGodly_ - Lost City Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    CoTD is made for a reason, if you know you are going to steal aggro and still keep going then you are just asking for it. To those that can control your damage, kudos to you and I know barbs love us. b:pleased
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sereneai - Dreamweaver
    Sereneai - Dreamweaver Posts: 351 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    XRyukenxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    im pretty sure force stealth resets the aggro for a sin back to 0 even if the sin doesnt get aggroed by the boss. so that should be used every once in a while just to reset ur aggro.

    Nope. Shadow Escape only resets your aggro when you are the TARGET of the boss (ie. you took aggro from the tank). If you don't have actual aggro, it does nothing useful besides giving you a spark, and puts it into cooldown......and then you can't use it when you really DO have aggro.
    Things said during a Twizted faction PK session:
    Slayer_of_Souls: you guys are such suck ups. none of you have attacked twid.
    Twiddzly(fac leader): no, sere killed me already.
    Slayer_of_Souls: he's out there waiting for us, isn't he. i'm gonna die.
    Sereneai: b:sin why don't you come find out.
    Kinglkaruga: you go first dule.
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I stole agro even with CotD on before.. D:

    But Shadow Escape only works if you have 100% agro. This means it's facing you 100%. If you shadow escape right as he turns to you, there's a high chance the barb would steal it back before your stealth goes into place, thus doing nothing but what Sereneai said.

    That's why when I steal agro, I keep DDing until my spark ends, then I shadow escape. But those days are over for me ^^
    [SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
    Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
    youtube.com/user/SkaiPW - Assassin PvE/PvP Videos!
  • _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear
    _whateverL_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    XRyukenxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    but if u fail at this and take aggro and cause a squad wipe just blame the barb. even if it is ur fault ppl will usually beleive its the barbs fault and the barb will in tern blame the cleric and leave the squad. which makes for some good lawlzy drama.

    I don't agree that people should blamethe barb or cleric.
    Since sin was the only who started the mess, it all came from him, people should blame the one who made the whole squad died which is the one that stole aggro.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    shadow escape works fine unless your in TT

    and if your gear is good enough to rip aggro there you can probly tank with rib+clerics (barbs are wimps so they usualy bring 2)
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • SinfuINature - Harshlands
    SinfuINature - Harshlands Posts: 533 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    as a sin i ALWAYS look at the barbs lvl/gear to see if they have **** gear (no zeal genie lol)... if they have **** then they are more than likely a crappy tank and cant/dont know to keep aggro... so i dont spark and i use more skills than just auto attack... if im 5 lvls about them then there is a chance i can take aggro... so i dont spark, ect..


    when i was a barb and i was pure tank with good gear... you should always take aggro/build aggro... if a player goes down then you should be able to stay alive long enough to allow the cleric to res a player... if you cant learn your class, get the right genie skills, get the right pots, max/learn your #$%@*&amp;! tiger form skills ( i cant stand when barbs dont max up thier tiger form skills b/c they say i never figth in tiger form)... with hp pots, sunder, tree of protection & solid shiled, cleric IH stack and immunity pots (thats 8 sec there)... that barb BETTER be able to stay alive for the 15 sec it takes to res some one... b:shutup
  • Malkomod - Harshlands
    Malkomod - Harshlands Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    (In my explains i figure a barb in the same level range is tanking)
    There's some tricks you can do as a sin to generate less agro such as, less sparking and using skills such as CotD. If you ever grab the aggro once, a good sin needs to figure why he did that and if you can't hold 3-4 hits from the boss, go quickly in forced stealth so the tank will grab aggro easily.

    But, the way a sin can steal aggro can be usefull sometimes when the cleric is being attacked.

    Generally what i seen most are sins constantly sparking, stealing aggro, than dying, complaining. The cleric cast resurect. Tank die, than the whole squad die!

    In that case, Its the sin's fault! But it can be the tank fault if he pulls mobs that he cannot handle himself or not using his aggro skills.
  • Malkomod - Harshlands
    Malkomod - Harshlands Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    To that I need to add, Its okay to steal aggro! But be sure you can handle the mob/boss youre attacking! If youre 100% sure to not die, why not?
  • Sereneai - Dreamweaver
    Sereneai - Dreamweaver Posts: 351 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Malkomod - Harshlands wrote: »
    To that I need to add, Its okay to steal aggro! But be sure you can handle the mob/boss youre attacking! If youre 100% sure to not die, why not?

    If you know you can handle tanking that boss, DISCUSS IT WITH YOUR SQUAD AHEAD OF TIME. If you are agreed upon as the tank, the cleric will be focused on healing you from the start, and no harm done!

    HOWEVER, nothing is more annoying that some idiot taking aggro in the middle of a boss, when they are NOT the agreed tank.

    /point
    //I admit I sometimes the idiot stealing aggro. Usually when I'm dead tired and should probably be in bed anyway b:surrender
    Things said during a Twizted faction PK session:
    Slayer_of_Souls: you guys are such suck ups. none of you have attacked twid.
    Twiddzly(fac leader): no, sere killed me already.
    Slayer_of_Souls: he's out there waiting for us, isn't he. i'm gonna die.
    Sereneai: b:sin why don't you come find out.
    Kinglkaruga: you go first dule.
  • SunDownXIII - Dreamweaver
    SunDownXIII - Dreamweaver Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    totally the sin's fault... let him die ;)

    I always tell the squad im tanking if i know i can handle it... if not, i skill spam and timed my attacks... i dont take aggro if i dont want it... cuz lets face it... sins will take aggro from barbs in lvl range... hell at 93 i was taking aggro from 101 barbs... if i want it... its mine... but i rather let the kitty pay the bill not me.
    101/101/102
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Also run around as a R1 seeker named WildFireXIII b:chuckle and now as a Stormbringer named xGrimStormxX, and no I'm not Grim from Kindred
  • Graey_Rain - Harshlands
    Graey_Rain - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Usually going to be the sins fault but some barbs just plane suck and will lose agro to everyone. I remember being 8x with my crappy unrefined hook and thorn, using chill, not sparking, just ribstriking, subseaing and auto attacking and still taking agro off the same 101 barb in my faction every ****ing time lol.

    There's only a limit to how much you can control your agro and then it becomes the tanks fault. If the sins using chill, not sparking, using his debuff skills etc it's not his fault, the tank just doesn't know how to hold agro.
    If he's sparking and auto attacking and going "heeerp deerrp I R doing so much dmaaaggeeezzZzzZzzz - woops dead..." Then it's his fault.

    Still, your squad should never wipe over an agro steal. If the sin can't tank whatever he's agro'd let him die. If the barbs half decent he should have no problem regaining agro and invoking so you can res the sin.

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