bms vs sins <opening up old wounds>

24

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  • TigerLily - Lost City
    TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    BMs use to have a chance before rank9 came out.

    But when r9 zerk daggers can chew through 20-30k hp and phy marrow in a few sec like its cookie dough its like no point even arguing who would win.

    If BMs got rank9 claws/fists with +30 attack level and zerk + endless supply of chi, maybe it would be a bit more debatable.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »
    And in what world are you living where a sin has 25k physical defense? With buffs?

    This is what a buffed +12 sin looks like http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=18992aec48aa4046

    With highly refined ornaments LA catches up a lot to HA. BMs dont have the dps to cut through that while the sin can easily chew through a BMs pdef even through Buddha Guard.
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  • _Spot_ - Lost City
    _Spot_ - Lost City Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »
    BMs use to have a chance before rank9 came out.

    But when r9 zerk daggers can chew through 20-30k hp and phy marrow in a few sec like its cookie dough its like no point even arguing who would win.

    If BMs got rank9 claws/fists with +30 attack level and zerk + endless supply of chi, maybe it would be a bit more debatable.

    Lilly nirvan dagg grade 15 can zerk too and really i has rank8 plus 7 and i can kill bms pretty easy...

    Ask almonb
    :chuckle

    The thing thats makes us op is the spark or better our chi making factory....
  • AgentPotato - Archosaur
    AgentPotato - Archosaur Posts: 324 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    This is what a buffed +12 sin looks like http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=18992aec48aa4046

    With highly refined ornaments LA catches up a lot to HA. BMs dont have the dps to cut through that while the sin can easily chew through a BMs pdef even through Buddha Guard.

    Unbuffed, that sin has 11k physical defense. In a 1v1, playing only with class buffs, this puts the sin at a much, much lower defense than a BM, who has two natural physical defense buffs on an already higher physical defense.

    A sage +12 BM with phys marrow and sage bell will have nearly 50k physical defense. That is with full nirvana armor and physical defense ornaments, which I feel is a feasible build since we cannot equip R9 armor, and also since most bms have interchangeable magic and phys ornaments (if not, this hypothetical bm in this hypothetical situation damn well does). Anyways, that puts the BM at nearly 5 times the physical defense of a sin. And lets face it, if you brambled a +12 BM with 20k+ unbuffed hp, its really not going to do more than tickle him while draining your genie, so physical marrow is probably the best option for the BM in this lovely hypothetical fight.
  • Skippy - Dreamweaver
    Skippy - Dreamweaver Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    honestly, i think the BM attack power is seriously underestimated now since every1 turned blind on sin OPness,

    yeh astrelle, show a fully buffed +12 rank9 4 aps sin, remove the buffs from PW calc and his stats are dropped by half,

    BM has way more chance then peaple give them credit for, sure rib strike the BM to nerv his aps, if the BM has a brain knows he could switch to his +12 rank9 axes, stun HF and spamm skills ,

    like every1 here forgot that the demon HF is like the best skill ever.

    but, i think if this fight would occur, it would be either end verry fast, or be a cat and mouse game all 2gether.

    sins have manny options to be able to use in battle

    so does the BM
  • Trelmanor - Lost City
    Trelmanor - Lost City Posts: 259 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »
    Unbuffed, that sin has 11k physical defense. In a 1v1, playing only with class buffs, this puts the sin at a much, much lower defense than a BM, who has two natural physical defense buffs on an already higher physical defense.

    A sage +12 BM with phys marrow and sage bell will have nearly 50k physical defense. That is with full nirvana armor and physical defense ornaments, which I feel is a feasible build since we cannot equip R9 armor, and also since most bms have interchangeable magic and phys ornaments (if not, this hypothetical bm in this hypothetical situation damn well does). Anyways, that puts the BM at nearly 5 times the physical defense of a sin. And lets face it, if you brambled a +12 BM with 20k+ unbuffed hp, its really not going to do more than tickle him while draining your genie, so physical marrow is probably the best option for the BM in this lovely hypothetical fight.

    agreed except for one thing... a sin can prepare himself and spark and stun from stealth... the bm would not have marrowed unless he saw it coming... with high refines on daggers a sin can and usually will rip through a bm's hp before he can move unless he gets lucky with stun break. if BM can break stun and effectively stun the sin before force stealth then yes i agree the BM should win that fight. But that is a BIG if...
  • AgentPotato - Archosaur
    AgentPotato - Archosaur Posts: 324 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Trelmanor - Lost City wrote: »
    agreed except for one thing... a sin can prepare himself and spark and stun from stealth... the bm would not have marrowed unless he saw it coming... with high refines on daggers a sin can and usually will rip through a bm's hp before he can move unless he gets lucky with stun break. if BM can break stun and effectively stun the sin before force stealth then yes i agree the BM should win that fight. But that is a BIG if...

    Yes, this is why I started suggesting expel for the BM to survive the first initial attack. It will also break the stun lock, as the only thing that can stun you while expelled, I believe, is occult ice and that would make it at least somewhat more manageable. A sin is at his deadliest the first few seconds out of stealth, or at least he should be.
  • Korrok - Harshlands
    Korrok - Harshlands Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »
    Yes, this is why I started suggesting expel for the BM to survive the first initial attack. It will also break the stun lock, as the only thing that can stun you while expelled, I believe, is occult ice and that would make it at least somewhat more manageable. A sin is at his deadliest the first few seconds out of stealth, or at least he should be.

    Any non-damaging stun can stun through expel. This pretty much limits it to Occult Ice, Roar of the Pride, and Telestun and any other no-damage stuns I may have forgotten. Fairly sure that's it for this matchup though.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The OP didnt state if the combatants were buffed or unbuffed. Considering how the OP was interested in the extremes of each classes performance I would assume both would be buffed but I doubt it would change the result.

    50% of every stun attempt on the sin will fail, and the rest have a chance to miss. A BM that can't stun lock effectively doesn't have much of a shot.
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  • pflegefall69
    pflegefall69 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The video you guys posted says nothing because the Bm got no expel wich is needed for a 1v1 vs sin.
    As the question was who would win in a +12 fight... i know this bm who has all +12.
    Its def. not like sins can kill him easy not even a nirv g15 +12 with zerk and full attack lvl sharded ( HL people probably know who iam talking about).
    IF you let a +12 sin and bm just hit eachother( no stuns no rib) the fist bm will win so he got the def x dmg advantage. The sin got better controlling skills wich is his biggest advantage.
    soniC
  • DaKillanator - Raging Tide
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide Posts: 2,965 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    pflegefall69 wrote: »
    IF you let a +12 sin and bm just hit eachother( no stuns no rib)

    and why would they do that...? You basically just took away the sins advantages, kept the bms advantages, and went on to state the bm would win...
  • TigerLily - Lost City
    TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    pflegefall69 wrote: »
    IF you let a +12 sin and bm just hit eachother( no stuns no rib) the fist bm will win so he got the def x dmg advantage. The sin got better controlling skills wich is his biggest advantage.
    soniC


    Why would someone do that in the first place lmao

    Thats like saying lets have a +12 wizard and a +12 BM hit each other no stuns/seals and see who wins b:chuckle

    BM would drop pretty freaking fast if he wasn't allowed to use controlling skills.

    If you aren't allowed to use all your class specific skills, whats the point of comparing classes 1v1 in the first place? Everyone knows a BM has higher defenses and hp, so just auto attacking on each other proves what?
  • Meoshikun - Harshlands
    Meoshikun - Harshlands Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    well this is still an intriguing matchup. if we were talking about a r8 sin all plus 12 vs a bm all plus 12 let's say nirvana and other armor then the bm wins hands down. but sins can't be beaten 1v1 anymore.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Meoshikun - Harshlands wrote: »
    well this is still an intriguing matchup. if we were talking about a r8 sin all plus 12 vs a bm all plus 12 let's say nirvana and other armor then the bm wins hands down. but sins can't be beaten 1v1 anymore.

    I SERIOUSLY beg to differ on that one... I've beaten quite a few sins with my BM that have better gear... They've killed me a few times but in most cases I kill them or force them to stealth up and stay away.
  • Nurfed_You - Harshlands
    Nurfed_You - Harshlands Posts: 754 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Deaden Nerves and inner harmony are the only things tht make sins a broken class. they all out attack you and you burn AD, expel, apoth pots, chi, etc...they force stealth for a spark inner harmony and they are ready to trip spark again. While you have no pots or chi genie on cooldown (basically no defenses left).


    To the OP: If the sin knows how to play on the bms cooldowns the sin can win everytime because its jsut a waiting game for htem.
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  • Cheze - Lost City
    Cheze - Lost City Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    having played both sin and bm, sin should win nearly 100% of the times.
  • ArchSaber - Sanctuary
    ArchSaber - Sanctuary Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Cheze - Lost City wrote: »
    having played both sin and bm, sin should win nearly 100% of the times.

    If only the assassin is one of the 20% of sins that are skilled.
    AP classes are a real butt pounding...
  • Cheze - Lost City
    Cheze - Lost City Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If only the assassin is one of the 20% of sins that are skilled.

    pretty sure ur overestimating.
  • lubyew
    lubyew Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Full Rank 9 Psy> All the other Classesb
    b:laugh

    Forget about sins and bm reroll a psy if you wanna kill everyone without doing nothing
  • Hidden_Draco - Harshlands
    Hidden_Draco - Harshlands Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Honestly, i think it all depends on the build of the character, i mean.... there are HA sins... as much as they fail -_- and so on, but honestly, the only time i ever lose to bm's is when i **** up the timing of my stun lock... Sins are just better PKers. Our class was made for it =P It also depends on the skills of both players, i mean there are some fail bm's and even more fail sins out there. Most of the 10x sins i see, just demon spark and auto attack.... fail... Not gunna beat too many HA classes by doing that =P I find myself getting killed more by Axe bm's than Fist ones anyway.. ijs. aps isnt everything.b:surrender
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    How 35% of the people that voted think that a bm could beat a sin in a 1v1 is beyond me.

    Just take a look at my vid of Cheze vs NyKage. Both can kill each other quickly, but its not even a match. As they approach each other, all cheze has to do is sleep (which is faster than any stun NyKage can use) -> glitch powerdash -> headhunt -> destroy. If Kage uses a genie skill to survive, cheze can just kite around for 30 seconds until the cooldowns are done.. and just do it over again when Kage is out of energy. So Kage needs to use either red sprint or an apoth or something of the like to even get near cheze.. and being that he needs to use it before they even get to each other.. cheze can just turn around kite around until kage's apoth/sprint run out. Now it's on cooldown and didn't do anything. Now if cheze somehow messed up or kage occulted, he still hasn't won. Every control skill kage has only has a 50% chance to work, because of tidal protection. Kage can't kill cheze with just an occult however, because he can't kill cheze in the time of one stun. Having to run up and possibly glitch cyclone or w/e doesn't leave enough time (even with +12 HH100 fists) to get through the 10k hp unbuffed that cheze has. This brings up an issue, because to hold cheze in place long enough to kill him.. he needs two stuns to work, and because of tidal there is a 25% chance of that happening. Add in expel for those odd times when two stuns work in a row.. and the chance for cheze to lose is slim to none. Yes, if kage had a skill like expel he may be able to delay the fight a short while longer, but I sincerely doubt it would change the outcome. Not to mention cheze never even used stealth lulz.
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  • Niteshadows - Harshlands
    Niteshadows - Harshlands Posts: 583 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Cheze - Lost City wrote: »
    having played both sin and bm, sin should win nearly 100% of the times.

    sorry bro but i disagree with that statement. b:bye
    Do you hate me? Good, that makes for an adequate conversation starter.
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  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Niteshadows - Harshlands wrote: »
    sorry bro but i disagree with that statement. b:bye

    He's right on. a good sin would destroy an equivalent bm
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  • pflegefall69
    pflegefall69 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    @ androit
    bm needed to glich glaciel spike demon + demon drake breaths bash on cheze for critical and fire dmg addon ( should be bout 1,7k autohits on cheze if he use pdeff amuletts and the bm has tt100 +11 so need 9 hits to kill cheze charmed (less than 4 seconds even with misses on aps 4) . Nykage didnt do that. he didnt use drakebash a single time for 7,5 second stun aswell. cheze kinda pushed his sin to the limit, show me a vid with a bm doing same and i might agree with your oppinion.
  • Cheze - Lost City
    Cheze - Lost City Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    pflegefall69 wrote: »
    @ androit
    bm needed to glich glaciel spike demon + demon drake breaths bash on cheze for critical and fire dmg addon ( should be bout 1,7k autohits on cheze if he use pdeff amuletts and the bm has tt100 +11 so need 9 hits to kill cheze charmed (less than 4 seconds even with misses on aps 4) . Nykage didnt do that. he didnt use drakebash a single time for 7,5 second stun aswell. cheze kinda pushed his sin to the limit, show me a vid with a bm doing same and i might agree with your oppinion.

    that would just make me have to press expel 2 seconds sooner, and 135% fire damage isn't gonna kill me unless i was on very low hp after i expeled, but of course yes it would definitely help.
  • Michael - Harshlands
    Michael - Harshlands Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Actually the main reason to glitch DBB on sins is so that when you expell the bm can still use any control skills, as the DBB fire damage allows bash and bolt to work, (bolt being the preference early in the expel and bash being at the end), however due to the high chance of control skills failing on sins (50% each skill) its almost impossible to build a stunlock combo long enough to kill the sin, without Tidal the BM could actually chainstun long enough to kill a sin but with it the BM pretty much relys on a tiny tiny chance of all the control skills working.

    Occult>Roar>(sin expels as you glitch) glitch DBB>bolt>bash (expel ends)>occult>roar sin dies however this is 6 control skills in a row just to kill the sin each one having a 50% chance to succeed thus meaning 1/64 chance of success, it also requires full genie energy meaning you cant use any defensive skills when the sin jumps you and you have to escape the sins stun without it, if you use AD, expel or any other defensive genie skill you leave yourself open to being killed without being able to use this combo.

    Sins however require alot fewer skills to land even if the bm has expel, also the sin can use condensed thorn to allow his control skills to work through expel thus meaning he too can chainstun the bm however with 100% success on each skill its alot easier to land the combos required to kill.

    I can kill pretty much any 1 stun sin with no issues as landing 1 stun even with a 50% success chance is easy, but for sins with decent armor its impossible to land enough stuns to kill.
  • MageFizban - Lost City
    MageFizban - Lost City Posts: 1,158 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Michael - Harshlands wrote: »
    Occult>Roar>(sin expels as you glitch) glitch DBB>bolt>bash (expel ends)>occult>roar sin dies however this is 6 control skills in a row just to kill the sin each one having a 50% chance to succeed thus meaning 1/64 chance of success, it also requires full genie energy meaning you cant use any defensive skills when the sin jumps you and you have to escape the sins stun without it, if you use AD, expel or any other defensive genie skill you leave yourself open to being killed without being able to use this combo.

    And if they're sage with 66% tidal, you'd have less than a 1/729 chance of landing all 6.
  • pflegefall69
    pflegefall69 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Cheze - Lost City wrote: »
    that would just make me have to press expel 2 seconds sooner, and 135% fire damage isn't gonna kill me unless i was on very low hp after i expeled, but of course yes it would definitely help.

    that would make me able to stun you thru expel with drakebash.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    pflegefall69 wrote: »
    that would make me able to stun you thru expel with drakebash.

    If he has Tidal up during that period it almost doesn't matter.
  • pflegefall69
    pflegefall69 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    another thought: roar, sin expel, purge spear, occult, hope for purge...if purge switch to axe drakebash.

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