bms vs sins <opening up old wounds>

Niteshadows - Harshlands

okk. im sorry for bringing this issue back up.

who's wins with everything +12, all skills maxed, with the best this game can provide for each class?

take ur pick and not cuz it's ur fav character.b:cool

Joshcja - Sanctuary

broken sins are broken all things equal no other class will beat them in 1v1 pk unless they get lucky

Niteshadows - Harshlands

what makes them op then? stealth and if they took stealth off will sins still be op?

--btw that's only 2 people's opinion and about the question i have to say bm.--

sins may be a 1v1 class but that doesn't mean the bm hasn't tricks up his sleeves.

Drysdan - Dreamweaver

Niteshadows - Harshlands wrote: »

okk. im sorry for bringing this issue back up.

who's wins with everything +12, all skills maxed, with the best this game can provide for each class?

take ur pick and not cuz it's ur fav character.b:cool

Bm cuz da rule and i think sin is okb:sadb:byeb:laugh

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Niteshadows - Harshlands wrote: »

what makes them op then? stealth and if they took stealth off will sins still be op?

--btw that's only 2 people's opinion and about the question i have to say bm.--

sins may be a 1v1 class but that doesn't mean the bm hasn't tricks up his sleeves.

Stealth makes them OP, along with higher dps, better stun locks, 35m teleport, and better defensive skills.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

basicly this ^

you left out the massive spike damage with chill though

StrangeScar - Lost City

1vm = bm

1v1 = brokensin. -> sin stealth, 1st shot + 5aps = QQQQQQ

Yulk_owns - Lost City

All I got to say to the BMs that QQing about sins... *facepalm*

Korrok - Harshlands

Sin. The immense amounts of chi they get, plus the sick control skills, plus the ability to evade damage and stuns(!!!) make them nearly unstoppable for BMs. It's not so easy to 5 aps someone to death when they can out-stun and out-DPS you when standing toe-to-toe with you.

Most BMs are complacent. I love it when I face 10x BMs with 2 pieces on -int gear cause I know they're just gonna swap to fists and stand there like a ******. They spark? I chain stun them out of spark. They burn will of the bodhi? I pop maze steps and match them, regaining the spark later. I can sleep them and demon spark at will. I can then pop inner harmony or RDS and headhunt them or powerdash cancel or what-have-you.

The reason sins are OP is because they have options. BMs have stun + fisting. Sins can kill you with skills or with APS or just simply avoid you forever. Options.

Yulk_owns - Lost City

Korrok - Harshlands wrote: »

Sin. The immense amounts of chi they get, plus the sick control skills, plus the ability to evade damage and stuns(!!!) make them nearly unstoppable for BMs. It's not so easy to 5 aps someone to death when they can out-stun and out-DPS you when standing toe-to-toe with you.

Most BMs are complacent. I love it when I face 10x BMs with 2 pieces on -int gear cause I know they're just gonna swap to fists and stand there like a ******. They spark? I chain stun them out of spark. They burn will of the bodhi? I pop maze steps and match them, regaining the spark later. I can sleep them and demon spark at will. I can then pop inner harmony or RDS and headhunt them or powerdash cancel or what-have-you.

The reason sins are OP is because they have options. BMs have stun + fisting. Sins can kill you with skills or with APS or just simply avoid you forever. Options.

I need to go duel assassins again and screen shot them.... That is if I stop lagging that is -_-".

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

A sin.
In head to head comparison of sin skill's with other classes' skills, you will see just how much they have at their disposal.
Their buffs, healing skills, stuns and status effects, chi building, dps, speed, teleport, stealth......
Compare with any other class, and you will see the sin has the most to work with.
Bottom truth is, in most aspects they are built superior to the old classes.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Look at it this way.

In a fight between two skilled bms, the first person to land a blow is usually the victor, simply because with chain stunning the other bm can never retaliate.

Now think about assassins. They have stealth, which means they always get that first hit. Almost anything a bm can do, a sin can counter. For the few things they can't counter, they have force stealth and focused mind.

AgentPotato - Archosaur

I think a lot of you that are comparing sins to bms in skills only are forgetting or leaving out that sins have the absolute worst defense of any class in the game, period, while bm's have the best, especially against a class that is for all practical purposes, only physical damage. So as soon as a bm survives the sins initial attack, and the sin has already used his only antistun (beastly cd when you're used to an archer), he can very quickly get through a sins light armor.

Both players would need very quick reflexes, and the bm would want to consider expel on his/her genie. After that, I think its a pretty fair fight.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

I think a lot of you that are comparing sins to bms in skills only are forgetting or leaving out that sins have the absolute worst defense of any class in the game, period.

No, they don't. They damn near have the best. Can a bm make an entire skill/attack miss 25% of the time? Can the bm survive a killing blow and regenerate 20% hp? Do they have a personal safe zone (i.e force stealth)?

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

So as soon as a bm survives the sins initial attack, and the sin has already used his only antistun (beastly cd when you're used to an archer)

And why has the sin already used the antistun again...?
He would use the antistun if he messed up the stun lock and didn't want to be stunned by the bm, but he wouldn't come out of stealth with it, especially since it costs a spark and only lasts 10seconds.

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

Both players would need very quick reflexes, and the bm would want to consider expel on his/her genie. After that, I think its a pretty fair fight.

Expel? Really? Badge of Courage perhaps, but expel won't work. Why? Simply because it requires too much energy. The sin would simply force stealth until it's gone, and continue the slaughter after the 8second duration of expel. That or the sin would use you as a chi post. And right before expel ran out, the sin would use his antistun, to assure that he would be able to just stun lock the bm all over again.

Oh and let's not forget most sins keep a magic damage genie skill around just in case the bm decides to alter marrow physical or uses expel.

Anemone_ - Harshlands

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Look at it this way.

In a fight between two skilled bms, the first person to land a blow is usually the victor, simply because with chain stunning the other bm can never retaliate.

Now think about assassins. They have stealth, which means they always get that first hit. Almost anything a bm can do, a sin can counter. For the few things they can't counter, they have force stealth and focused mind.

This.

As a psychic I looove to duel people, simply because I can prepare the very best counter for the class before the fight even starts i.e stuns/shields/genie moves.

A assassin gets that luxery 24/7 and plenty of other skills to use in case there "perfect storm" goes wrong, coupled with the fact that aps is incredibly strong at killing anything in pvp.

But honestly it's okay, with more and more sins being made and getting rank 8 it helps keep me sharp in pvp. Knowing that at any moment I could die helps me to keep alert and focused. (At least until I start +10 all of my gears to really start fighting back that is)

AgentPotato - Archosaur

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

No, they don't. They damn near have the best. Can a bm make an entire skill/attack miss 25% of the time? Can the bm survive a killing blow and regenerate 20% hp? Do they have a personal safe zone (i.e force stealth)?


And why has the sin already used the antistun again...?
He would use the antistun if he messed up the stun lock and didn't want to be stunned by the bm, but he wouldn't come out of stealth with it, especially since it costs a spark and only lasts 10seconds.


Expel? Really? Badge of Courage perhaps, but expel won't work. Why? Simply because it requires too much energy. The sin would simply force stealth until it's gone, and continue the slaughter after the 8second duration of expel. That or the sin would use you as a chi post. And right before expel ran out, the sin would use his antistun, to assure that he would be able to just stun lock the bm all over again.

Oh and let's not forget most sins keep a magic damage genie skill around just in case the bm decides to alter marrow physical or uses expel.

No, I mean expel. I can kill the best geared axe bm on my server, full R9 with vit stones, etc, before he can make any offensive move. A sin out of stealth, two sparked and 5 aps, with the anti stun activated is very hard to do anything against. I don't even have to stun to kill him, the only defense he has is expel in that situation. Badge of courage is useless if you're not even stunned in the first place. Highly refined sins with high aps make expel necessary on anything except a barb. Solid shield would also be a viable option but I dont remember if that is barb only or not.... kinda thinkin its not but I'm honestly too lazy to go check. Vit/Mag genies make expel a much better option than the average str or dex build genie because of its energy requirements.

Please, please don't kid yourself that sins have the best defense in the game. A chance of evasion against damage is not defense, it is luck.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

Please, please don't kid yourself that sins have the best defense in the game. A chance of evasion against damage is not defense, it is statistics.

fixed

Yulk_owns - Lost City

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

Both players would need very quick reflexes, and the bm would want to consider expel on his/her genie. After that, I think its a pretty fair fight.

Epic fail. I never needed a genie to kick a sin's **** in duel as my BM >_>.

AgentPotato - Archosaur

Yulk_owns - Lost City wrote: »

Epic fail. I never needed a genie to kick a sin's **** in duel as my BM >_>.

You've fought full +12 sins? After all, that was the scenario the OP presented. I know a lot of people will think Im an idiot for even suggesting that a BM would need expel to last against a sin, but I think a lot of people dont realize how insane a 4 aps +12 r9 sin is when it comes to damage output, and how easily expel can save your *** when you have only a few seconds to react.

edit: oh god you said duel... how did I miss this...

AgentPotato - Archosaur

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

fixed

-shrug-

Either way it cant really be considered a defense since its out of your control and not a skill you can calculate on to save your *** when you need it most.

Do you by any chance call a crit that kills you a 'statistical crit'? God forbid someone call it a lucky crit. b:thanks

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

Do you by any chance call a crit that kills you a 'statistical crit'? God forbid someone call it a lucky crit. b:thanks

If a wiz kills my with a crit it's a lucky crit lol.

If you're a sin/archer and have over 20% crit, then it's statistics :P

SHiNoHBee - Lost City

b:chuckle Well, since all i really play is blade (93 now) and this 95 sin, i'm gonna say from my own inside experience that the sin wins hands down. In fact the sin wins with even less shiny gear. That being said, I do LOVE my BM as she can handle stuff the fish would never dream of.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

Please, please don't kid yourself that sins have the best defense in the game. A chance of evasion against damage is not defense, it is luck.

This is what you consider among the worst defenses in the game

-50% immunity to any negative status (such as the BMs stun / Occult Ice)
-25% chance to not take any damage
-Immunity to being 1 shot
-An instant cast anti stun skill
-Force stealth
-Evasion as high as an archer
-HP regen on all attacks

This is what a BM has

-high pdef
-an instant cast anti stun skill
-an instant cast 20% hp recovery


Also the OP is talking about a full +12 sin / BMr. That kind of sin has like 25k pdef while the BM would have what 30k?

Kaste - Sanctuary

It depends on what kind of gear you are thinking of.

Sage CoD Sin with full R9 > ANYTHING

Just because they rip through anyones defences like butter. Bard is likely to be 3 shotted, and BM would be what then? 1 Shotted probably.


Else I'd say it is a thing of luck and skill at the same time. As almost no stun skill has 100% hit chance, and the anti-stun skills have CD, it always depends on when you use your skills and hope to be able to interrupt your enemy's stunlock, so that you can lock him yourself.

Skippy - Dreamweaver

erm to be honest, just looking it like this way, BM still is HA, reduces quite some damage the sin will trow at him, and what about the BM his lvl 100 skill, sorta like invoke onely less good.

if the sin gets stunned hes done for imo, BM has a way better chance to be alive after a stun lock then a sin does, and BMs are masters of stuns

i think it would be a pretty fair fight but, my vote goes to the BM

AgentPotato - Archosaur

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is what you consider among the worst defenses in the game

-50% immunity to any negative status (such as the BMs stun / Occult Ice)
-25% chance to not take any damage
-Immunity to being 1 shot
-An instant cast anti stun skill
-Force stealth
-Evasion as high as an archer
-HP regen on all attacks

This is what a BM has

-high pdef
-an instant cast anti stun skill
-an instant cast 20% hp recovery


Also the OP is talking about a full +12 sin / BMr. That kind of sin has like 25k pdef while the BM would have what 30k?

Ugh... I know that sins are OP, I know this, I have a level 101 sin with 10k unbuffed hp, +12 nirvana daggers. I dont have one piece of r9 and I can still kill anything on the server as long as I see it first.

The fact remains that light armor is the absolute worse armor in the game, which in turn gives a sin the worst defenses in the game. The ONLY skill that a sin has that he/she can use defensively is force stealth, which is admittedly broken. All of the other skills you mentioned cannot be considered true defenses. They are all offensive disabling skills that can be used to attempt to defend yourself, but can all be counteracted by other skills, genie included.

Also, when you list both focused mind and tidal protection together, you may as well imply that a BM can have both physical and magical marrow up at the same time. Also, against a fist BM, which is the typical build vs a sin, focused mind loses much of its value because of the high attack rate that a BM will normally have. The BM does about as much dmg in that case as he does to my archer with higher evasion. Evasion: my sin, with the exact same gear as my archer, excluding weapon, has around 2500, while my archer has a constant evasion buff giving him around 4500. Thats no where near each other.

And in what world are you living where a sin has 25k physical defense? With buffs?

Listing a BM's 'defenses' in like manner:

-100% physical defense buff minimum (demon and sage are both op adds)
-Physical marrow (120% increase?)
-Magical marrow (same)
-Reasonable evasion (depending on the build, of course, but if you can wear fists your evasion is usually decent enough to be annoying)
-A useable heal
-Stuns up the ***, with short CD's
-Forward and backward leaps that dont need a target to be executed
-Ranged seal
-More HP from refines

Anything else coming from me is just guessing, since I've never played a BM long enough to speak for them in anything other than hypothetical situations.

All I am trying to point out is that, from my experience playing both an archer and a sin with the exact same gear, the sin dies much, much, much faster than does my archer, which has true defensive skills. I can choose when and where to use them, when and where I need them, as opposed to my sin, with which I just have to run into a fight all gung ho, fingers crossed that statistics will have woken up on the right side of bed that morning and are shining their glorious light of luck upon my frail frame. b:shutup

Nyxyo - Harshlands

forgot to add for sin that dagger with zerk along with hi critical make room for hits 4 times then normal ...also sin can rib strike bm make him non aps bm...b:chuckle

my sin got rank 6 dagger +11 and all i do is dance with bms a little to make them use skills then either power dash or..spark+occult and even if i use all my skills i can hide and start again.. sin rules pretty much 1 vs 1 ...i hate play sin in tw tho i die so way to much lolb:cry

Kaste - Sanctuary

AgentPotato - Archosaur wrote: »

Listing a BM's 'defenses' in like manner:

-100% physical defense buff minimum (demon and sage are both op adds)
-Physical marrow (120% increase?)
-Magical marrow (same)
-Reasonable evasion (depending on the build, of course, but if you can wear fists your evasion is usually decent enough to be annoying)
-A useable heal
-Stuns up the ***, with short CD's
-Forward and backward leaps that dont need a target to be executed
-Ranged seal
-More HP from refines

Anything else coming from me is just guessing, since I've never played a BM long enough to speak for them in anything other than hypothetical situations.

- 100% phys defense buff? level 10 > 60% / Sage > 90% / Demon > 75%
- Physical marrow = death (genie skills as bramble rage, condensed thorn)
- magical marrow against sin? >_>
- evasion is broken. BM has a max amount of 200 DEX. If a sin is only using one 50% hit ring the hit chance is high enough.
- heal is nice, indeed. Especially demon version.
- Stuns indeed, unfortunately, sins can always get first hit.
- Race ability (Elf = shields / Humans = leaps / untamed = true formes / fish = ??)
- 2 seconds >_>
- More HP indeed.

Korrok - Harshlands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxJa7dGyT3E

Even without stealth it's broken OP. Can we please stop having this thread? lol

AgentPotato - Archosaur

Korrok - Harshlands wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxJa7dGyT3E

Even without stealth it's broken OP. Can we please stop having this thread? lol

That video is what made me suggest expel for bms in the first place. Cheze used it to save his *** numerous times near death, while calvin just... died... it worked for cheze, so why not for calvin?

And my bad on the 100% phys def buff x.x.

_Spot_ - Lost City

I have to say sins ...........

I can ko better geared bms (compared to myself)

We get more chi we, we attack first we have more critical rate i mean way more, we deal more dmg, we can stop the figh by shadow again waiting for our skill cooldow while poor bm has his geine on cooldow....

Its a OP class but we we got **** defense but our ofense owns...

And Yulk shut the *** up b:bye