Demon or Sage Archer?

Fleuri - Sanctuary

If it matters: sage can get 5aps with frost fists.

And, in general, sage does not get major dps boosts, above demon, even when they have the advantage. And demon often does have the advantage. But neither one is always superior to the other.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Fist have nothing to do in here..

We discussing Archer with bows in PVP/TW. Again PVE has nothing to do with this thread.

Like above says.. its a personal option

But in PvP N TW aspects hell archer brings more output damage. Sage survibility doesn't exist. You dont have a passive that gives you 40% reduction. The skills that do give you reduction are meant to be used while immune.

Everyone that pks should always carry 12 sec immune pots.. duno who ya pk and even the tranquilize orb are good enough so you can kill someone n drop before the imune pot runs off.

The range that you get as sage is kinda useless against lots of classes. Sin would just stealth as soon as you aim low or use the teleport stun, Bm will use leap into you or away, Wiz will blink away, Veno goes fox form n you will be hitting for ****, ep plume shell and barb.. lol if you go against a +10 gear one.

That amazing range you claim does pretty much nothing, its barely 2 steps. It is only helpful against archer since are the only class that doesnt have a blink/leap, and even then.. wings of grace/shield n get close to you.


In tw.. It doesnt matter if you get target or not, Even with your amazing Range.. Mage ulti on the guy infront of you and you die. Specially to any rank 8/9 mage.


Like i said.. I rather barrage and kill as many people as i can. QS its amazing against robes in TW. It procs so often n most die before they notice.

The sage "Survibility" its a myth.. lol Wings of graces gives pretty much same reduction and doesnt stack.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

I am having problems talking with you, Kedge, because you keep making up non-factual things, and you do not bother supporting your own arguments with facts. If you did try working out actual numbers, you might notice how non-factual you were being.

Anyways:

Sage tends to hit harder than demon, but that is just a tendency and its just a mild tendency.

Demon tends to do damage faster than sage, but that's only a potential and if done wrong the demon can wind up doing slower damage than sage. (But sometimes you get a minor advantage from having delivered that damage slower, and in the right circumstances you are indeed faster.)

Sages do have a survival advantage, but if you cannot even figure out how you do damage I am not sure how. But I give up trying to explain this to you.

Here's some detail on how you deliver your damage slower:

Let's say you are fighting with a good squad and/or with a good weapon and your average target lifetime is 3 seconds before it dies. And, let's also say that interval between hits is split out half before the attack and half after the attack (if interval between hits time is all before you do damage, you can make target lifetime be 3.5 seconds and you get an analogous effect). You are using demon quickshot while a pathetic sage is just using normal attacks. And, for the purpose of illustration, you both have an attack rate of 0.87 and you both have the mythical "identical equipment" and identical builds, except that you both have all demon skills and the sage has all sage skills and any 100 skills you have are on cooldown:

When you use demon quickshot, you and it procs, on average, you hit the target 3 times before it dies. When it does not proc, on average you hit the target 2 times before it dies. The poor pathetic sage, using normal attacks, on average hits the target 3 times before it dies.

If we take "interval between hits" to be evenly split before and after each shot, here is when the arrows hit:

Demon Quickshot (proc)
1 second
2 seconds
2.8 seconds
3.6 seconds (typically too late)

Demon Quickshot (no proc)
1 second
2.2 seconds
3.3 seconds (typically too late)

Normal attacks
0.56 seconds
1.7 seconds
2.86 seconds
4 seconds (typically too late)

Now, of course, this was just averages, and I left out a lot of details and possibilities, and if you work things out and find the probabilities of dealing with a longer living target, things get complicated and interesting. Numbers can lie to you, when you do not understand them...

But you, my friend, seem to have some rather intense comprehension problems. So I am expecting another round of blind assertions that are only situationally true, and I expect you to be pretending they are generically true. (Or, maybe, you will just be silent?)

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, sage stun means three shots on mage that cannot absolute domain, and cools down a lot faster than absolute domain. Or I imagine they could expel themselves, but most mages have lower metal defense than physical defense, and we can debuff their metal defense (roughly in half or almost cancelling cleric buff), and they cannot distance shrink while expelled.
.

...what happy fantesy world do you livein where self targeted geni skills dont work in stun?

hint: they do

1v1 or in TW i cant think of a single situation in which a sage archer would out DD a demon over stun dureation BOA or anywhere really...

sage is great for pve claw farming but outside of that its really lackluster

yes you can cash shop gear so ungodly that only somone your gear level can make you feel the culti differance. have fun beating off to your e-peen

Quilue - Sanctuary

Not all targets are 3-shots, even with Jone's Bless cheap rank, some robes have considerable defense. Jade sharded and highly refined people can still take quite a few hits to take down. If we're always against 3 shots, then might as well not have this conversation because you could go neutral, not take any path and do well. Nobody would notice the difference and yeah Demon Quickshot would not be necessary, neither would Sage stun and Sage STA.

But that is not always the case, and thus there will always be a time and place for Demon Quickshot.

AgentPotato - Archosaur

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not all targets are 3-shots, even with Jone's Bless cheap rank, some robes have considerable defense. Jade sharded and highly refined people can still take quite a few hits to take down. If we're always against 3 shots, then might as well not have this conversation because you could go neutral, not take any path and do well. Nobody would notice the difference and yeah Demon Quickshot would not be necessary, neither would Sage stun and Sage STA.

But that is not always the case, and thus there will always be a time and place for Demon Quickshot.

I have witnessed a R9 archer STA a full +10 Nirvana armor, JoSD sharded wizzy. The wizzy was uncharmed but survived the shot with about 100-200 hp. A little higher on that crit, or even by the archer using double spark, the wizzie would have been a one shot with or without a charm.

I have also seen a r9 +12 sage sin 3 shot a full +10 nirvana vit stone BM. R9 has truly introduced the era of no skill. Cultivations really don't matter if you have R9 and see your opponent first. b:sad

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Fleuri

Given just the sparks and no other lvl11 skills learned, how do you come up with the point that sage spark gives higher damage than demon?

Factor in the lvl11 passives and its still a doubt considering that its weapon based. Sage Bow Mastery gives you an added 15% of weapon attack compared to demon.

Refer the builds;-

Demon Spark with Demon Masteries with a +7 Rank 8 bow

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ef972db56591e693 ~ around 19 shots in 15 seconds

With 0 APS gears (does not use rank8 gear so the diff in atk is also lower)

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=4d1d8e5be24fc6da ~ around 13 shots in 15 seconds

Sage Spark with Sage Masteries with a +7 Rank 8 Bow

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=7bac427fa847752c ~ around 14 shots in 15 seconds

With 0 APS gears (does not use rank8 gear so the diff in atk is also lower)

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=cdad235c6cf042ca ~ around 10 shots in 15 seconds

The difference in attack between the two (when using a +7 r8 bow) is 300 min - 450 max atk.

^

This is 3 spark that is only 25% since demon qs is 30%.

Anyways its a 1 second cooldown skill that is spamable. It is the best option to kill people with decent gear as an archer. Fight a +10 robe and try to kill normal shooting at .95 hit per sec. Im pretty sure you will just tickle while the other person silence you or 1 shoots you with a cri pyro.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

^

This is 3 spark that is only 25% since demon qs is 30%.

Anyways its a 1 second cooldown skill that is spamable. It is the best option to kill people with decent gear as an archer. Fight a +10 robe and try to kill normal shooting at .95 hit per sec. Im pretty sure you will just tickle while the other person silence you or 1 shoots you with a cri pyro.

If I recall my sage archer hit slower then .95. Then again... who cares what you hit when each hit is for 10k.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

...what happy fantesy world do you livein where self targeted geni skills dont work in stun?

hint: they do

Oh, certainly.

Meanwhile, stun has a 15 second cooldown. But, also, I have only been an archer engaged in PvP in TW where people have good cause to have their genie skills on cooldown and/or to have their genies low on energy.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

1v1 or in TW i cant think of a single situation in which a sage archer would out DD a demon over stun dureation BOA or anywhere really...

Oh, really...

Demon stun gives you two shots with an increased critical chance. Sage stun gives you three shots without an increased critical chance. Sage base damage is slightly higher than demon. But if we assume the demon has a 50% critical hit chance and the sage has a 33% critical hit chance, here's the odds:

Demon: no critical hits: 25%, one critical hit: 50%, two critical hits: 25%.

Sage: no critical hits: 30%, one critical hit: 44%, two critical hits: 22%, three critical hits: 4% (I had to round those numbers slightly, but they are all within a half percent of being accurate.)

If all shots did the same damage (say 1k damage), the demon would average 3k damage, and the sage would average 4k damage during stun (it's actually 3990 damage, with these assumptions, if I use exact math, but I would rather round off that number since my starting assumptions were crude).

...but... you can't think of a single situation where 4 would be greater than 3?

Really?

And note that I ignored sage's higher base damage per hit, here, and even gave the demon a few extra critical hit chances that could not be accounted for by our usual equivalent gear/equivalent build assumption. I am not trying to address all the issues which could be relevant in a "real fight", I am just trying to put this one mechanism into terms simple enough for you.

Meanwhile, I already posted how demon quickshot can be worse than normal attack (when the target dies fast). And that also ignored a sage advantage (the third of a second initiative advantage we have in getting into range before demon, when we are not using holy path).

Anyways... in a number of common situations, demon delivers damage faster than sage. But if you think that that means that demon always delivers superior damage that mostly tells me that you are not thinking nor observing.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not all targets are 3-shots, even with Jone's Bless cheap rank, some robes have considerable defense. Jade sharded and highly refined people can still take quite a few hits to take down. If we're always against 3 shots, then might as well not have this conversation because you could go neutral, not take any path and do well. Nobody would notice the difference and yeah Demon Quickshot would not be necessary, neither would Sage stun and Sage STA.

But that is not always the case, and thus there will always be a time and place for Demon Quickshot.

Yes, certainly: demon quickshot is an excellent skill and can be very useful, for demon archers that use it when it makes sense.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

QS then stun why do you assume demons will waste stun time on a skill? wait...unless your not only attacking in stun time

do not get this stun thing sages love so much strikes me as a total nonfactor

that situation is horribly flawed because your not counting the extra shot both archers get off after stun (autoatack takes priority over skills) plus time it takes to get out of range or stun/seal you

so realisticly we're talking about 7+ shots for sage 12+ for demon on a QS proc with 10% more crit

useless example is useless try something that matters eh?

KedgeSniper - Lost City

when the target dies fast...

K Let me know how many full +10 gear people do you one shot so often or 3 shoot.

Doesnt matter if your stun is 1 more hit if you still dont deliver fast damage.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

when the target dies fast...

K Let me know how many full +10 gear people do you one shot so often or 3 shoot.

Doesnt matter if your stun is 1 more hit if you still dont deliver fast damage.

I have no idea how you define "fast damage", but I totally agree that killing a well equipped person is much easier if you have a squad assisting you.

(But sage almost always does higher damage during stun than demon, unless demon has quickshot proc'd in which case damage during stun is similar, so if demon can kill wizard while wizard is stunned, so can sage.)

Devoted - Lost City

Quickshot is nice because pw is so bad it can't calculate 2 fast hits as separate shots sometimes and you get a nice charm pass.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

I rest my case.

Pve servers are top 1 on PVPz b:bye

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Quickshot is nice because pw is so bad it can't calculate 2 fast hits as separate shots sometimes and you get a nice charm pass.

The issue here, I think, is lag.

Between how this game treats even minor lag, rubber banding, and a few other issues, TW is not much fun for me, but PvE is relaxing.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

when the target dies fast...

K Let me know how many full +10 gear people do you one shot so often or 3 shoot.

Doesnt matter if your stun is 1 more hit if you still dont deliver fast damage.

You do know for quiet a few archers out there... a crit could one shot even a +10 la... not to mention robes. And a self buffed +10 full jade wizard has almost no chance of living through a sage stun right?

KedgeSniper - Lost City

K

Anyone with +12 rank9 can faceroll and kill people with poison arrow. Still 99% of the server lacks of +12 gear n rank9.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

K

Anyone with +12 rank9 can faceroll and kill people with poison arrow. Still 99% of the server lacks of +12 gear n rank9.

Sage poison arrow can be useful in PvP against heavy armor types that do not wear mana charms. You can almost see them going huh? wtf? when their skills do not work.

And if they wear mana charms? Well, good for them. I like when other people support this game, then I do not have to feel guilty. (And even then you have a chance of interrupting a non-arcane class using heavy mana drain.)

And, yes, +12 rank 9 kills things quickly, but sage winged blessing with +5 soul crusher can still do things you cannot do with rank 9. It's just too bad though that their ammo is not compatible.