Demon or Sage Archer?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

VyperionV - Lost City wrote: »

Physical imune bosses exist. If map will be reset you will find in TWs as well.

I wouldn't make a culti decision for a set of mobs that I could count on one hand... Also demon blazing arrow is pretty good at taking down phys immune.

For example i lvl an archer here too and i have no skills on him. Just hyper+ normal atks and i lvl super fast but there are some wood mobs that die in 3-4 normal hits. Those mobs would die from 1 metal atk. Wood element is weak to Metal element. So why use normal atks on those mobs when i can 1 hit them with metal?

You are overestimating the effect of elemental weaknesses. You get typically a 20% bonus from using the element the mob is weak against. However using two metal attacks is like 30% slower than firing two arrows on a bow with 0 -interval gear.
Metal is good on increased phys defense somewhat (they have +200% phys defense), but even then demon's metal skills are more than enough to kill the occasional mob.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

VyperionV - Lost City wrote: »

Physical imune bosses exist. If map will be reset you will find in TWs as well. Idk about mobs on this server but i am sure bosses exist.
Tome = 400 mil. That costs alot
LG= 75m
ashura arm= aprox 20m
ashura leg = aprox 30m
i can continue with nv leggings, lionheart necklace and belt and best of all rank equip (bow and top). However rank is easy to get now.
U are somehow right! Most ppl get interval because they heard it's good to have it but from what i saw they have no ideea what to do with it. Others go for r9 and have no need for interval (r9 can add +128 atk level) but r9 is much too expensive so no need to discuss it here.
Depending on each player skills can be used. Nobody forces archers to use metal skills in pve. For example i lvl an archer here too and i have no skills on him. Just hyper+ normal atks and i lvl super fast but there are some wood mobs that die in 3-4 normal hits. Those mobs would die from 1 metal atk. Wood element is weak to Metal element. So why use normal atks on those mobs when i can 1 hit them with metal?

I already mentioned the physical immune bosses you can encounter. Mobs...not so much. I am not stating that metal skills arent good in pvp/tw/etc but their usefulness is very very limited in pve to the point that they are rarely used.

Again I did not say you need MAX -interval and all -interval gear. Even a few -interval gear is more than sufficient.

Ok according to you, an archer can choose to have increased damage output using skills instead of -interval. In such cases, what equipment do u suggest which are not as expensive as the tt99 golds, Lunar Glade equipment, nirvana, etc?

If its molds or 3*s, you actually think an archer with such armours is going to have a weapon, refines and skills that would seriously make a metal attack one shot a 9x/10x wood element mob without crit?

VyperionV - Lost City

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I already mentioned the physical immune bosses you can encounter. Mobs...not so much. I am not stating that metal skills arent good in pvp/tw/etc but their usefulness is very very limited in pve to the point that they are rarely used.

Again I did not say you need MAX -interval and all -interval gear. Even a few -interval gear is more than sufficient.

Ok according to you, an archer can choose to have increased damage output using skills instead of -interval. In such cases, what equipment do u suggest which are not as expensive as the tt99 golds, Lunar Glade equipment, nirvana, etc?

If its molds or 3*s, you actually think an archer with such armours is going to have a weapon, refines and skills that would seriously make a metal attack one shot a 9x/10x wood element mob without crit?

You did mention so much is true i didn't contradict you here.
I know you didn't reffer to max interval u can get but honestly now...what's the point in geting only a part of it?
High aps archers first go for those items that offer them interval then start refining wep. As DD archer with no interval i suggest geting a good wep (r8 perhaps) and make it+12. After that other items are purchased and those are less expensive than interval ones.
Refinign wep as much as possible is a condition for being archer so you try obtaining it anyway but if you choose interval built you pay some extra for those items and prolly get them be4 refining wep.
So...interval archer is more expensive than non interval. It's just a simple fact. For some people it might not be much of a difference since the power of $$ differs from one player to another.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

As DD archer with no interval i suggest geting a good wep (r8 perhaps) and make it+12

As example of this?

The rank 8 bow gives -0.10 interval and chest piece gives another -0.10 interval. Hence they are no longer "non interval archer".

Besides, an archer who can +12 a Rank 8 bow surely has funds to get all interval gear save for maybe the tome/nirvana leggings.

Anyways I guess its upto each person to play their archer however they want. I will always find my normal shots to give higher DPS to spamming skills. Besides I do not want to have a mp charm just to gimp my damage output.

Sint - Harshlands

i like demon better. i whent demon, after careful consideration, because, yeah, it's more useful. the 20% sage hp debuff is NOT something you notice in pvp. if you really want it in pve, and i'll quote Devoted here: i'll let a failure Sharptooth for me. in pvp, demon sta means you have a better chance against barbs.

if ANYONE has bothered to do the math on sage dmg, you'll notice it's something like a 4% difference in your final dmg. it gets lost in your weapon's dmg range. meanwhile, a demon gets a 2% better chance to get rid of an irksome but squishy cleric/mage in his opening shot. demon blazing is godly on fists(pve). demon metal hits dont even need arguing. demon spark > sage spark by far (unlike what you'd all like to think, a sage sparked archer is still squishy.) demon quickshot, if you actually have the cash to afford some interval, is sexy. sage quickshot isnt. i'm not even talking about knockback because nobody gives a damn. frost, ditto. if you planned to use it against bms in pvp, sage would give you a tiny edge. archers DONT have 4 metal skills. we have 2 metal skills, a metal AOE you only use if your oponent isnt charmed, and eagleon, wich you dont want to be seen casting. Eagleon is by far the most embarassing thing you can do with 2 sparks and an arrow

/rant

VyperionV - Lost City

There are other weps but idk the name on this server. Besides, -0.2 interval doesn't make anybody interval built. It's insignificant comparing to full interval built. I reffered to the dmg f this wep alone. Nobody forces you to take the armor top as well.
If you can +12 a wep u surely have cash for the rest u say...hmm...so how does it feel to add another at least 500 mil to the expenses of the refining? You can just get the wep and refine. You will do that sooner or later anyway. Not necesarely to +12 from the first moment u get it.
U can focus on refining and buy cheap items instead of focusing on interval and not having enough money to refine. It's the way i see it. Interval EA is more expensive than non interval.

Zhadi - Archosaur

First of all, the best gears for archers, are probably the interval gears, minus the ornaments.
I'd go for warsong belt and CoF neck for increased survivability.

Other than that, TT99 wrists and boots tend to be in the general archer build, whether you're interval or not.
R8 Chest and R8 Bow are a must. Both with interval. Cape can be debated, but the extra mods on Energetic robe are nice for an extra vit and dex boost when you restat str. Tome-wise, i'd go for love: up and down. The difference between that and the dex tome, is 1% extra crit for the dex tome. Love: up and down has more dex when you restat the str. Nirvana leggings have the best mods of all LA leggings, not just the interval. All in all, if you want the best archer, you're most likely gonna end up being an interval build. If you're smart with your money, getting most of your interval gear doesn't have to be more expensive than +12'ing your bow.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

VyperionV - Lost City wrote: »

Others go for r9 and have no need for interval (r9 can add +128 atk level) but r9 is much too expensive so no need to discuss it here.

r9 weapon can be cheaper than second cast nirvana weapon, and once you have that, getting rank 9 armor can be cheaper than getting second cast nirvana armor. Being "cheaper" assumes, of course, that you are only playing one character -- nirvana armor can be shared across several characters, where rank 9 armor cannot be. And lunar nirvana can be resold when something better becomes available while rank 9 armor cannot be.

VyperionV - Lost City wrote: »

Sage has faster same channeling speed as demon. Cooldown is better for sage though.

I am not really sure I understand your grammar here, but I think I agree with you.

But, just in case:

With thunderous blast, sage has faster channelling, equivalently geared and built demon hits harder (unless maybe they are using high grade +12 weapons, with good shards, and so on), sage cools down faster. (And, of coursde, your demon would hit harder when using that short term buff from blazing arrow.)

However, with thunder shock, the two cultivations are same speed. (Sage hits harder unless demon has short term buff up from blazing arrow, and they both have the same cooldown.)

And, also, with lightning strike, both cultivations channel the same, but sage cools down faster. And, again, sage has higher damage per hit unless demon has that short term buff from blazing arrow.

Anyways, with these metal skills, sage winds up with a slightly higher base dps than demon. If you throw in sharpened tooth arrow, demon crit rate will exceed sage channelling bonus for dps, but sage max health reduction will probably make up for that, especially on hard targets. And, if sharpened tooth plus three metal attacks is not enough to end the battle, I think sage winds up with the stronger offensive while demon has better defense (because of higher evasion and readily available winged shells).

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

if ANYONE has bothered to do the math on sage dmg, you'll notice it's something like a 4% difference in your final dmg.

It's 4% for archers with 750 dexterity, but I do not know if dexterity can go that high. And, I am assuming balanced defenses, for your target. But that drops when sparked. Still, the 33% increase in survivability (1/0.75) can be nice, for triple sparked sages.

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

Eagleon is by far the most embarassing thing you can do with 2 sparks and an arrow

Sage stormrage eagelon can prevent party wipes in bh 3-3.

And, I think that it's bad how its in-game description is wrong.

Zhadi - Archosaur

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's 4% for archers with 750 dexterity, but I do not know if dexterity can go that high. And, I am assuming balanced defenses, for your target. But that drops when sparked. Still, the 33% increase in survivability (1/0.75) can be nice, for triple sparked sages.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=0acf1ff1126bd049

Total Dex: 777

Ok.... chances of this is like..... 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of happening..
But.. there's a possibility...
b:surrender And I was bored...

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Zhadi - Archosaur wrote: »

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=0acf1ff1126bd049

Total Dex: 777

But I still do not know if dex is capped by the game.

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear

Zhadi - Archosaur wrote: »

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=0acf1ff1126bd049

Total Dex: 777

Ok.... chances of this is like..... 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of happening..
But.. there's a possibility...
b:surrender And I was bored...

I jizzed in my pants when I saw the dex.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Dont base your decision btw Im Poor or Rich.

If you base it on that.. Demon gives more.. Since the spark will make you hit faster .. Specially since you have no interval.. at least it will boost your speed damage + damage.

If you sage spark.. you will receive less damage ? with your weapon +3 ? <_< GL killin someone 9x+

Now if you do get a few skills... Quickshots is all you need. Only skills you really need to save for.

Demon skills add a new twist to your old skills. Sage is only good for Passive n stun. Sage damage wont compare to demon Cri + atack speed. Hitting 2 arrows instead of 1 win.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

If you sage spark.. you will receive less damage ? with your weapon +3 ? <_< GL killin someone 9x+

No, you have explained this wrong for everyone.

Sage has slightly higher damage, even with triple spark, than Demon, and sage gets added utility.

Demon under triple spark delivers their damage significantly faster (usually) than sage, but not always.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

@Fleuri

Given just the sparks and no other lvl11 skills learned, how do you come up with the point that sage spark gives higher damage than demon?

Factor in the lvl11 passives and its still a doubt considering that its weapon based. Sage Bow Mastery gives you an added 15% of weapon attack compared to demon.

Refer the builds;-

Demon Spark with Demon Masteries with a +7 Rank 8 bow

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ef972db56591e693 ~ around 19 shots in 15 seconds

With 0 APS gears (does not use rank8 gear so the diff in atk is also lower)

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=4d1d8e5be24fc6da ~ around 13 shots in 15 seconds

Sage Spark with Sage Masteries with a +7 Rank 8 Bow

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=7bac427fa847752c ~ around 14 shots in 15 seconds

With 0 APS gears (does not use rank8 gear so the diff in atk is also lower)

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=cdad235c6cf042ca ~ around 10 shots in 15 seconds

The difference in attack between the two (when using a +7 r8 bow) is 300 min - 450 max atk.

Now this might seem a lot, but how much extra damage does the 300~450 additional attack provide, after you factor in the resistances of the target? 100~200? If its a [?] target, probably even lower?

There are instances where a sage archer will out damage a demon archer in terms of DPH (eg. when using take aim), but i doubt they do so under sparked + normal attacks scenario under the influence of no other buffs.

Instances where the sage spark + normal out dpses demon spark + normal:-

1.) If the sage archer uses wind shield + spark they could out damage a comparable demon given that wind shield would decrease the difference in attack rate. This could give the sage higher, if not the same damage output as the demon.

2.) Under the effects of RB from a cleric. Demon spark's attack speed boost will be overwritten by the RB and hence both demon and sage with have the same attack rate. The higher weapon attack %s from sage masteries would give an edge.

I guess this gives more insight on which is better when factoring only spark and masteries.

On the whole, both sage and demon are equally good and have their own strengths. The most important thing when deciding is the skills you use most often and not how others play their archers.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Fleuri

Given just the sparks and no other lvl11 skills learned, how do you come up with the point that sage spark gives higher damage than demon?

Factor in the lvl11 passives and its still a doubt considering that its weapon based. Sage Bow Mastery gives you an added 15% of weapon attack compared to demon.

I was not assuming "no other lvl11 skills learned". That does not seem like a reasonable assumption. Instead, I was assuming "every sage or demon skill learned".

And, if you assume no other sage/demon skills learned, demon still will not have higher damage than sage.

Also, I will agree that the sage damage boost over demon is relatively minor. And, sage's other advantages over demon are also relatively minor. Except, of course, when they matter. Sometimes a sage be delivering damage when a demon cannot, so its only fair I think that demons can deliver damage faster when they can attack. I am not sure if the cultivations are completely balanced, but I myself do not really care about that.
.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Sometimes a sage be delivering damage when a demon cannot

and when exactly is this?

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

and when exactly is this?

When demon is dead (sage has some survival skills that demon lacks), and when demon is out of range (for example, successful aim low in pvp from max range, or with holy path to get to max range).

The max range trick works nicely in TW when combined with an increased range weapon (36m range gives you a nice margin for error), but I have not had a chance to try it since I stopped using my soul crusher. Often enough, in TW, your target will not want to close range with you, even if you do not have them frozen -- and, if they do decide to close distance, that pulls them into range of other people's attacks.

However, cultivation will not always be a win for sage. Sometimes demon manages to kill faster than sage, and that can risk the sage's life (because things that are not dead can attack you). Also, sage has a nasty conflict with blue bubble:

Sage damage reduction temporarily overrides blue bubble (spark especially, is only 25% damage reduce and can be up to 5 seconds before blue bubble reduction comes back, barrage works similarly). But, also, within five seconds, blue bubble erases the sage damage reduction buffs and the damage reduction from blue bubble only lasts five seconds, so if you are in a blue bubble and the blue bubble goes down, within 5 seconds you have a sage without any damage reduction buff. All of which leaves sage with lower dps than demon and no survival skill advantage over demon. (On the positive side, this means that sometimes barraging from outside blue bubble is the right choice, especially if the monsters will likely be dead soon -- you have to weigh the possibilities, and take your chances.)

But, other times, sage damage reductions can keep you alive when demons would die.

Agatio - Harshlands

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

When demon is dead (sage has some survival skills that demon lacks), and when demon is out of range (for example, successful aim low in pvp from max range, or with holy path to get to max range).

To which sage survival skills are you referring to, because I can't see any? Maybe sage spark, but I thought that archers are using sparks to make more damage. And more likely they would use Wings of Grace, that costs only 1 spark, except 3, and has more damage reduction. And demon Wingspan allows to survive nukes from wizzies, because they often come into close range.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Ive seen many sage archers die while I have not. How do you explain that? Whos doing more damage in this case?

It boils down to gameplay. I prefer damage negation to damage reduction.

Sage spark = 15 seconds of 25% dmg reduction?

What would you say to Wings of Grace + Demon Spark? Can a sage do this?

Or lets try again, you say Sage BoA gives you 33% dmg reduction.

How about Demon BoA + Timing AD/Expel at the right time? Most mobs outside of delta and FB99s would be dead by the time expel runs out.

Theres always a counter argument to both sides. Choosing sage doesnt automatically make you a more survivable archer. There are many factors to consider before making this claim.

Even for myself, I have survived longer just because the target died faster.

Agatio - Harshlands

Damage reduction on sage BoA is useless in both PvP and PvE, that's why I didn't even mention it. In PvP archer will get stunned / sealed as soon as he will be detected, so he wants do the highest damage he can deal and highest chance for debuff, which Demon BoA allows. in PvE u don't use it often endgame, most likely in rebirth, but there is this conflict with blue ball. And i can't think about other places, maybe frost runs, but frost is so easy, its just funny.

jiq

I'll go Sage on my Archer. ^^ I love the buffs / passives, they give better damage. Demon is mainly for crits, APS and PVP... These things do not interest me.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ive seen many sage archers die while I have not. How do you explain that? Whos doing more damage in this case?

I was not there, so I cannot say.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage spark = 15 seconds of 25% dmg reduction?

Yes, which works rather nicely with permaspark. Of course, its not bloodpaint, but demon archers cannot use bloodpaint either.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What would you say to Wings of Grace + Demon Spark? Can a sage do this?

I already pointed out some situations where Demon had an advantage over Sage, and I think they were bigger issues than this one.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Or lets try again, you say Sage BoA gives you 33% dmg reduction.

How about Demon BoA + Timing AD/Expel at the right time? Most mobs outside of delta and FB99s would be dead by the time expel runs out.

For example, there's a kettle you dig for a quest in Lothranis, I tanked the monsters there with sage boa without a cleric.

Or, for example, in BH Metal, when cleric blue bubble goes down, I can barrage, pull aggro and generally help keep my squad alive. That's a bit of an iffy example because I get sealed, but the damage reduction makes a noticeable difference for me. TT sometimes has similar situations.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Theres always a counter argument to both sides. Choosing sage doesnt automatically make you a more survivable archer. There are many factors to consider before making this claim.

I think I agree with you on this point.

Agatio - Harshlands wrote: »

Damage reduction on sage BoA is useless in both PvP and PvE, that's why I didn't even mention it. In PvP archer will get stunned / sealed as soon as he will be detected, so he wants do the highest damage he can deal and highest chance for debuff, which Demon BoA allows. in PvE u don't use it often endgame, most likely in rebirth, but there is this conflict with blue ball. And i can't think about other places, maybe frost runs, but frost is so easy, its just funny.

If you cannot think of a use for something that does not make that thing useless. But I think that kind of inability does say something about your thought processes.

Meanwhile, we can prevent stuns (or even seals), if we prepare properly.

And if you do not mind burning chi and setup time, sage stormrage eagelon + sage barrage of arrows temporarily gives you damage reduction nearly equivalent to blue bubble. I have not yet found a situation where that would be useful, but I think that says something about my though processes. Still, its possible that some day I will find a use for it.

Personally, when I am fighting a boss I am not prepared to tank, I burn a lot of chi on sage stormrage (unless I have blademasters in the squad willing to burn their chi on myriad storm). Stormrage slows boss movement giving me extra reaction time when I pull aggro (which happened often enough even with older weapons), and reduces boss damage (which can help keep my whole squad alive, for example in bh 3-3). Personally: if you do not have armor good enough to be tanking 3-3 colluseast yourself, I do not see how demon increased damage rate will help there.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I was not assuming "no other lvl11 skills learned". That does not seem like a reasonable assumption. Instead, I was assuming "every sage or demon skill learned".

And, if you assume no other sage/demon skills learned, demon still will not have higher damage than sage.

Also, I will agree that the sage damage boost over demon is relatively minor. And, sage's other advantages over demon are also relatively minor. Except, of course, when they matter. Sometimes a sage be delivering damage when a demon cannot, so its only fair I think that demons can deliver damage faster when they can attack. I am not sure if the cultivations are completely balanced, but I myself do not really care about that.

1st.. This is not a I have 10000000Coins n i can get all my skills tomorrow..
This guy saying.. he doesn't have lots of $ n wants to know which culti would help him the most. Like i said.. Without skills Hell is highly better.. and even with skills still far better.

Demon spark > Sage spark in damage.

Even with your 25% reduction.. the increase atack speed will make the demon archer better at a lower budget. Also I was discussing an archer going against other classes not a 1v1 same class scenario.

QS still beats any skill that a sage archer.

Sage archer don't "survive" more than "demon". Just cause you have a 25% reduction.. doesn't mean you gonna tank 10 people shooting at you as you spark. Demon has the chance of hitting a target faster during stun n being available to kill the target.Also if you spark and don't use a 12 sec immune pot or 6 sec.. I'm pretty sure that you will get stun as soon as possible. So your 25% Reduction = Useless overall.

In TW sage archer has the advantage of hitting targets a bit farther.. But in TW with 80 people Distance wont be a big advantage.. You will have people shooting you from places that you wont even know if your at your max range at all. Or just get ulti by a mage that hit the archer that is 2 steps infront of you with an aoe.

TW demon archer advantage is barrage. Real important reason why archers still good for TW. Barrage increase speed.. its obviously higher damage n faster damage.. Higher the interval.. the faster it hits. Your Barrage reduction is useless again.. As soon as you open barrage you better Imune pot.. Or you be stun rite away. The reduction from sage is again useless compare to the damage outcome from Demon.

Also Demon archer can QS Eps from their max range n Stun.. That means Ep most of the time have no chance to pop their defensive plume shell or (the other thing i forgot name)..


And im still loling at your post above me.


Eagleon is a waste of skill.. Even in PVE. casting your 3 spark would do more damage than spaming skills..

I think last time i saw an archer spaming skills at bosses .. i was level 60?

Bms using Myriad storm.. the sword ulti.. is even more hilarious LOL.. Would be easier to use Dragon and kill the boss in less than a min.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

QS still beats any skill that a sage archer.

In a 1 v. 1 archer v. archer pvp situation where you are allowed to use only one sage/demon skill, sage winged blessing potentially beats demon quickshot: You need to kite out of range until the demon runs out of movement debuff immunity, then aim low and holy path to max range...

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Sage archer don't "survive" more than "demon". Just cause you have a 25% reduction.. doesn't mean you gonna tank 10 people shooting at you as you spark.

Nor will you be able to get two shots off, so demon spark is no better than sage spark in this case, and demon quickshot is worse than normal attack or whatever. On the other hand, if you are using absolute domain + ironguard, you do not need to "tank them" for very long -- you just need to live through the random attacks that hit you during absolute domain's immunity to stuns while you use your ironguard.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Demon has the chance of hitting a target faster during stun n being available to kill the target.Also if you spark and don't use a 12 sec immune pot or 6 sec.. I'm pretty sure that you will get stun as soon as possible. So your 25% Reduction = Useless overall.

Yes, it's certainly too bad that archers cannot use immunity to stuns.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

In TW sage archer has the advantage of hitting targets a bit farther.. But in TW with 80 people Distance wont be a big advantage.. You will have people shooting you from places that you wont even know if your at your max range at all. Or just get ulti by a mage that hit the archer that is 2 steps infront of you with an aoe.

Yes, TW is chaotic.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

TW demon archer advantage is barrage. Real important reason why archers still good for TW. Barrage increase speed.. its obviously higher damage n faster damage.. Higher the interval.. the faster it hits. Your Barrage reduction is useless again.. As soon as you open barrage you better Imune pot.. Or you be stun rite away. The reduction from sage is again useless compare to the damage outcome from Demon.

Demon gets one extra barrage every 18 seconds, which is nice. Sage damage reduction can last, briefly after you get stunned (I think it will last for an average of 1.5 seconds), which might indeed let you survive that stun. (Which, often enough, only happens after people fail to kill you with non-stun attacks.)

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Also Demon archer can QS Eps from their max range n Stun.. That means Ep most of the time have no chance to pop their defensive plume shell or (the other thing i forgot name)..

Sage have a stun, also, and can take several shots before that wears off. While demon has a higher chance in one shot to critical during the stun, sage has additional critical chances, and that's not insignificant.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

And im still loling at your post above me.

Eagleon is a waste of skill.. Even in PVE. casting your 3 spark would do more damage than spaming skills..

I am glad you got some pleasure from my post, but you are very confused here:

Eagelon lets me put out my maximum damage without dying. When I pull aggro, I stop shooting. Spark would just pull aggro sooner and I would spend longer times not shooting. So in this case, spark is worthless for increasing damage delivered. Spark is not entirely worthless (since it's a heal and a purify) but it does not make colluseast die faster. Unless, of course, I can tank colluseast while debuffed and with your max health reduced -- if I had that kind of gear though, and it was relevant in this thread, your early assertions about not being able to afford any skill other than spark become kind of silly.

Of course, eagelon does not in and of itself increase my damage. But if it keeps any member of our party alive it does indeed increase damage rate delivered on colluseast.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

I think last time i saw an archer spaming skills at bosses .. i was level 60?

Bms using Myriad storm.. the sword ulti.. is even more hilarious LOL.. Would be easier to use Dragon and kill the boss in less than a min.

In the right party, that can work, but one blademaster doing dragon's flame and one archer pulling aggro is not what you need to have happen there.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

While demon has a higher chance in one shot to critical during the stun, sage has additional critical chances, and that's not insignificant.

You lost me on this one. What do you mean sage as additional critical chances? Which archer skill magically provides a sage with additional critical chances?

Given the exact same build, a demon will always have 2% more crit than sage (thanks to masteries) and 10% more for 10 seconds after a demon stun and for 15 seconds after demon STA.

So thats basically a 12% additional crit over a sage after a lvl11 stun or STA.

Note: I am not comparing my archer to your archer. I am comparing my archer with sage skills and my archer with demon skills.

Eagelon lets me put out my maximum damage without dying. When I pull aggro, I stop shooting. Spark would just pull aggro sooner and I would spend longer times not shooting. So in this case, spark is worthless for increasing damage delivered. Spark is not entirely worthless (since it's a heal and a purify) but it does not make colluseast die faster. Unless, of course, I can tank colluseast while debuffed and with your max health reduced -- if I had that kind of gear though, and it was relevant in this thread, your early assertions about not being able to afford any skill other than spark become kind of silly.

Of course, eagelon does not in and of itself increase my damage. But if it keeps any member of our party alive it does indeed increase damage rate delivered on colluseast.

Colluseast has random aggro at the moment, so whether you like it or not, you will have to tank the damage at some point (irrespective of wether youre debuffed or not). So would you use 2 sparks on Eagleon [OR] would you save to use your spark to resist the damage and remove the debuff? By purifying myself and healing up, I have a better chance to tank that damage a little longer than when being debuffed.

Perhaps Sage Eagleon's 20% decrease in attack can help but say I use it and colloseast decides to shift to me, what now? your apoths are down, genie is charging, if you had the sparks perhaps you could have used wings of grace or maybe even got 3 sparks by hitting it once and then sage sparking. Would you still spend 2 sparks on eagleon?

Usually archers are members the with lowest survivability to melee attacks given that we do not have the advantage of bloodpaint nor the chance to evade all attacks nor the defense or the hp of a similar geared physical damage dealer. So I'd rather save the sparks to save myself first.

In the right party, that can work, but one blademaster doing dragon's flame and one archer pulling aggro is not what you need to have happen there.

Sometimes thats exactly what needs to happen.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You lost me on this one. What do you mean sage as additional critical chances? Which archer skill magically provides a sage with additional critical chances?

Sage stun lasts for 4.5 seconds, which in my experience is enough time to take another shot. And, each shot has its own independent chance to critical.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Colluseast has random aggro at the moment, so whether you like it or not, you will have to tank the damage at some point (irrespective of wether youre debuffed or not).

But stormrage slows his movement, which means the tank has a much easier time of grabbing colluseast back. (Edit: but of course that does not work if your tank is not using skills to pull aggro back, and lets you take a few hits before he switches weapons or whatever.)

And that's different from doing so much damage that the tank cannot get aggro back from me. And I could do that also, even without demon spark, except I die when I do that on colluseast. So I am not seeing the point in spending spark here to make this happen.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So would you use 2 sparks on Eagleon [OR] would you save to use your spark to resist the damage and remove the debuff? By purifying myself and healing up, I have a better chance to tank that damage a little longer than when being debuffed.

Sage eagelon lasts 30 seconds, and can be up for 95% of the battle. That purify and heal are only available to you occasionally. You can 5aps to build chi, but that means you are within melee range when you pull aggro.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Perhaps Sage Eagleon's 20% decrease in attack can help but say I use it and colloseast decides to shift to me, what now? your apoths are down, genie is charging, if you had the sparks perhaps you could have used wings of grace or maybe even got 3 sparks by hitting it once and then sage sparking. Would you still spend 2 sparks on eagleon?

If I do not mind spending a few thousand coins on mana pots, I can build about 200 chi in 30 seconds, using ranged attacks, without using my genie, and without using my sage spark skill, and without using any apothecaries. And I still have my sage spark skill to fall back on if I had to use some of that time doing something other than attacking.

And even if I do need to use cloud eruption, my genie can recover enough to let me use holy path within 15 seconds.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Usually archers are members the with lowest survivability to melee attacks given that we do not have the advantage of bloodpaint nor the chance to evade all attacks nor the defense or the hp of a similar geared physical damage dealer. So I'd rather save the sparks to save myself first.

But I am not your usual archer.

Instead, I am a fail archer that does everything wrong.

b:chuckle

But I feel that archers have good survivability when we do things right: Those other classes have those damage mitigation advantages because they are getting hit all the time.

Anyways, I cannot say that I have never died to colluseast nor that my 3-3 parties never have anyone else die. But afterwards people often enough comment on how well things went.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

when you 3 spark or barrage.. You need to immune pot .. Without the 12 sec during your spark or barrage .. You will get chain stun.

Your Damage reduction is useless compare to the damage 3spark and barrage increase as soon as you immune pot.


You keep thinking you will be at max range everytime from everyone. That doesnt happen in TW n probably either in Pk with more than 10 people flying around.

I dont really know why compare skills in PVE.. thats completely stupid. Since Your job is to afk 3 spark or bloodvow afk 3 spark. Bm 5.0 should be tanking most of the time.. so doesnt matter about aggro. Wasting your spark for eagleon/spamin poison arrow or any other idea.. its just completely bad. Faster way to DD a boss 3 spark afk spamin cloud eruption. Will give you almost permanent spark with high DPS.


Again We discussing ALL Sage skills against ALL Demon skills. Even though this guy said he is p00r n mostly wont ever have all skills. (That takes out Lame "OP PVE SAGE SKILLS" lolz)


At +12 Sage increase of damage can one shot average gear/decent refines/unbuff. But Gl killing a full buff mage/ep(with mp charm)with a well gear. Fast damage = Death.

Dont tell me..I Will debuff the mage max range .. cause demon would shoot more than you. That means % of debuff higher for a demon archer cause QS N 3 spark.

Sage does have a few skills that are a little bit better.. stun can be a little bit more helpful than 10 cri, But Archers is meant to High cri n fast speed.

I take anyday +12 super speed > +12 sage.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Antistun is not sufficient during Barrage as a swift kick to the face or a seal will end it anyway. Immunities are really a must for Barrage unless you're Barraging from behind a wall or something and no one realizes it's a Barrage.

Sage stun being longer is nice, but in mass PvP like TW, you can hopefully count on some melee to stun someone and you just QS the stunned target.

A good thing to come out of Sage is that with Sage Winged Blessing and some sort of range increase weapon you can Barrage towers (and that includes base towers) from out of range. However, since R8/R9 bows do not give range increase I don't know if any archers actually take advantage of that now.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

when you 3 spark or barrage.. You need to immune pot .. Without the 12 sec during your spark or barrage .. You will get chain stun.

Your Damage reduction is useless compare to the damage 3spark and barrage increase as soon as you immune pot.

I sometimes get stunned, sometimes I get interrupted, and sometimes that happens after 8 seconds, after 12 seconds or after 20 seconds. I almost never get chain stunned in TW -- if I can survive until the stun wears off and if I have some way of moving quickly, I can usually survive. Then again, I do not always have my apothecary ready, and I do not always have an extra spark. Also I have often seen opposing archers with barrage up and no damage immunity. (And the last time I saw an archer use damage immunity, it was a tranquilizing orb, and not an ironguard.)

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

You keep thinking you will be at max range everytime from everyone.

I think no such thing, and I said no such thing. I do think, however, that it's possible to get to max range, even in TW. Not always, of course, but sometimes. When you are attacking someone that does not have you targeted, and you have gotten beyond the initial rush, this can be rather easy.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

I dont really know why compare skills in PVE.. thats completely stupid. Since Your job is to afk 3 spark or bloodvow afk 3 spark. Bm 5.0 should be tanking most of the time.. so doesnt matter about aggro. Wasting your spark for eagleon/spamin poison arrow or any other idea.. its just completely bad. Faster way to DD a boss 3 spark afk spamin cloud eruption. Will give you almost permanent spark with high DPS.

I sometimes do this "weak substitute for an assassin gig", and when I do, my 25% spark damage reduction can be rather nice. BMs will hold aggro off me if they have a much better weapon, but 5aps claw sage dps is higher than 5aps fist demon dps, if we assume equivalent gear and the boss is not immune to fire damage.

Of course, equivalent gear never happens...

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Again We discussing ALL Sage skills against ALL Demon skills. Even though this guy said he is p00r n mostly wont ever have all skills. (That takes out Lame "OP PVE SAGE SKILLS" lolz)

And a few posts back you were telling me about how wrong I was for discussing all sage skills against all demon skills. So your "Again" here tells me that you are confused. Again.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

At +12 Sage increase of damage can one shot average gear/decent refines/unbuff. But Gl killing a full buff mage/ep(with mp charm)with a well gear. Fast damage = Death.

Dont tell me..I Will debuff the mage max range .. cause demon would shoot more than you. That means % of debuff higher for a demon archer cause QS N 3 spark.

Sage does have a few skills that are a little bit better.. stun can be a little bit more helpful than 10 cri, But Archers is meant to High cri n fast speed.

I take anyday +12 super speed > +12 sage.

Yes, sage stun means three shots on mage that cannot absolute domain, and cools down a lot faster than absolute domain. Or I imagine they could expel themselves, but most mages have lower metal defense than physical defense, and we can debuff their metal defense (roughly in half or almost cancelling cleric buff), and they cannot distance shrink while expelled.

Anyways, just in case you have lost track:

I think sage will sometimes survive were demon will not, and that demon will survive sometimes where sage will not (assuming equivalent gear). Both can happen, but sage has a few advantages here.

Meanwhile I think demon will sometimes outdamage sage, and that sage will sometimes outdamage demon (assuming equivalent gear). Both can happen, but demon has a few advantages here.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Sage 5 APS with claws

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=239b3fd5a5e30449

Demon 5 APS with Frost Fists - This is of course without the Proc which adds attack.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=901d14bc3f52cbf9

Pros

---

1.) Does not require Nirvana Leggings/R9 Leggings/-interval Tome to hit 5.0 aps
2.) Does not require lunar claws to hit 5.0 aps
3.) The Proc adds attack damage and also heals you 5% of your hp which is a nice one
4.) Damage is quite comparable to an equally refined Lunar Claw
5.) More affordable and easier to acquire than the sage 5.0 aps build.
6.) Lower STR requirement which means you can restat the rest into DEX for more bow damage.
7.) Does not lower max hp and hence in FCC exp isnt nerfed one bit.

Cons

---

1.) Perhaps Slightly lower DPS than using lunar claws
2.) Cannot be made into Nirvana fist/claws
3.) Does not lower max hp which could be useful against some targets

Basically demon + fists or Demon + claws saves you a lot of farming time. But then again you get fists for farming. But whatever.

If am not mistaken there is a chart which shows the damage difference between the two.

Now if you add in the Blazing Arrow effect, sage gets 10% more fire atk than demon. How much more damage output does this provide? Maybe slightly more to out dps te demon + fists by a small amount?

Anyways its personal preference.