HA Sin?

Venomthekill - Heavens Tear

I was wondering if heavy armour could be a good choice for a sin or does it make the sin useless? Are there any HA sins out there? I dont mean to be trolling, i was just wondering if HA could work well especially 100+?

Thinkalot - Dreamweaver

HA sin .... 0.0

So far not seen one, and imo more disadvantages then advantages.

You have higher pdef
you have wayyy less dmg output
meaning you have wayy less return from Bloodpaint

Less dmg = fighting longer = taking more hits = more repair and more chance to die.

And although your pdef will be high, not all mobs are physical....

I seriously wouldn't suggest it to anyone. If you want to go HA, make a BM. Sins aren't meant to be HA users.

_Leif - Lost City

Not worth it imo. Pdef increase isn't significant enough to matter.

This is mainly because sins do not have their own class-specific pdef buff. BMs have their aura and marrows, venos have foxform, wizzies have stone barrier, and barbs have passive pdef increases. So, regardless of your gear, your pdef will still be sucky.

Empu - Sanctuary

Not worth it imo either.

You have higher phys def, but your mag def will be really bad and you don't have marrows like a bm or a hp pool like a barb to make up for it. Not to mention your damage will be insanely low (less dex so lower phys attack and less crit and even less accuracy).

I don't know the lvl of your sin, but at lower lvls def sucks indeed. After 59 melee damage isn't that much of a problem anymore, not to mention at 89+. If you still want to reduce damage taken at 80+, you can always consider going sage.

To answer your last question, I only know saw a few HA sins, mainly lower lvls that plan on restatting later. And maybe 1 or 2 HA fist sins at endgame lvls.

VyperionV - Lost City

In pvm you have blood paint and that compensates for the lack of defense.
In pvm you need dmg to win fast
The only reason u should make a heavy sin is to reach 5 aps with less requirements. That means you will use fist. But you can use fist wearing light armor too however the dmg will not be just as good since you will lack str. But keep in mind that fist sin can't use skills! Heavy build is a bit useless if you ask me.
I tried archer with heavy build once. It's super good to solo dungeons with 5 aps using HA but sux badly in pvp.

AuroraLucia - Archosaur

HA Sin End-game

LA Sin End-game

These are just what I would do personally if I had the money. I didn't add refines/shards to the armor because the damage is what should be focused on at the moment.

You will notice that the only thing's that are HA on there are the boots, leggings, and wrists. The necklaces are Ashura's on the HA because you need the extra Dex from them to put Nirvana Daggers on there. Both will give the same APS, HA will have slightly lower damage and 7% less crit. Overall, it will do less damage, but it gives an additional 14% decrease to physical, while only a 5% less magical. Note those differences become lessened with buffs placed on.

I'm sure I did something wrong there with both, but I'm too tired right now to care. Point is though, you will take less damage over all, but also do less damage. Honestly, I'm not sure if it is even worth trying for, but to each their own. If you can afford to do it, go right ahead.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

NO, NO, and again **NOOOO!!!!!**
Unless you restat to HA at endgame (read: 100+) and are epically geared, just no.
The few HA sins I've met are pure noobs and aren't worth ****. If you want an HA DD, go with a BM. b:bye

Teny - Heavens Tear

No. You lose a very large portion of your crit/damage trying to be HA, the only person who attempted this semi-successfully was Dbora on HT, and his was more of a "tank" since his barb's HA gear was nirvana with +10 and vit stones. His damage was not impressive though.

Being a pure dex sin is what gives you leverage over other characters who have refines. The combination of skills and damage is what allows you to compete with people with better gear/high level. Going HA just makes a sin pointless.

VyperionV - Lost City

If i think about it....HA sin would be epic fail even on private servers where stats are crazy and lvl can reach 150+
Sin is losing AP, Crit, Dodge, Accuracy in order to gain a bit more pdef. Also the lack of AP causes a bad regeneration coming from BP.
HA is also vulnerable to magic making sin an easy target for archers. (Believe it or not, LA is hardest to penetrate for archer....provided that the one who is wearing it knows how to pvp).

Ninja_Dagger - Dreamweaver

5 APS fist built with mostly strength and just crapy daggers for skills on hotkeys
get full interval and you can have chill of deep 5 APS it doesn't do much less dmg than
dagger build aside from less crit rate and accuracy.... the extra pdef would be nice for soloing instances nd all that good **** and the heal off bloodpaint wont be much less

VyperionV - Lost City

I doubt sin will have 5 aps with fist when it's using chill. Besides that there are some areeas in wich sin needs to aoe if he wants to finish fast. Swiching to daggers might delay and the lack of dex will diminish dmg. However i never tried. I am not much of a defense lover. I preffer huge atk.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

VyperionV - Lost City wrote: »

I doubt sin will have 5 aps with fist when it's using chill. Besides that there are some areeas in wich sin needs to aoe if he wants to finish fast. Swiching to daggers might delay and the lack of dex will diminish dmg. However i never tried. I am not much of a defense lover. I preffer huge atk.

All -interval you can get: 0.15 attack interval
Demon Spark: -25%
Demon Chill of the Deep: +70%
Total: 0.15 * (1+0.7-0.25) = 0.15 * 1.45 = 0.2175 = 4.35/20 -> rounded down to 4/20 = 0.2 = 5 aps.

And there's actual in-game proof of that. Cheze on Lost City has done it.

Okeano - Harshlands

Ninja_Dagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you can have chill of deep 5 APS it doesn't do much less dmg than dagger build aside from less crit rate and accuracy....

Fists with Chill is still behind daggers in DPS by a lot. 20% behind in crit pretty much cancels out 20/30 attack levels from CoD in terms of DPS over time. Then you got the higher base damage of daggers multiplied by the higher attack multiplier due to 4XX DEX vs 3XX STR. I'm HA fists with 5.0 unsparked, only because I no longer care to gear up my Sin, so it's just using my BM's gears.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

All -interval you can get: 0.15 attack interval
Demon Spark: -25%
Demon Chill of the Deep: +70%
Total: 0.15 * (1+0.7-0.25) = 0.15 * 1.45 = 0.2175 = 4.35/20 -> rounded down to 4/20 = 0.2 = 5 aps.

And there's actual in-game proof of that. Cheze on Lost City has done it.

What's this 4.35/20 stuff? It goes 0.2175 rounds to 0.2 = 5 APS. He actually took that SS with level 7 Chill because it was taken before sage/demon skills came out. The missing attack levels were made up by DoT's in his armor.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

What's this 4.35/20 stuff? It goes 0.2175 rounds to 0.2 = 5 APS. He actually took that SS with level 7 Chill because it was taken before sage/demon skills came out. The missing attack levels were made up by DoT's in his armor.

The 4.35 was a simple conversion to 20ths, which shows why the 0.2175 rounds to 0.2 and not 0.25. Just an extra.

The attack interval rounds down to 0.05 accuracy. 0.05 happens to be exactly 1/20, so approaching the attack interval from that point might make it easier to see the roundings.

Okeano - Harshlands

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

so approaching the attack interval from that point might make it easier to see the roundings.

Not really b:chuckle.

VyperionV - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

All -interval you can get: 0.15 attack interval
Demon Spark: -25%
Demon Chill of the Deep: +70%
Total: 0.15 * (1+0.7-0.25) = 0.15 * 1.45 = 0.2175 = 4.35/20 -> rounded down to 4/20 = 0.2 = 5 aps.

And there's actual in-game proof of that. Cheze on Lost City has done it.

Idk how u calculated interval here but i can assure you that is wrong
In 10 sec you get 50 hits if you have 5 aps...right?
If you have dark chill then you have your aps lowered with 70 % right?
70% out of 50= 35
total of 50 hits - 35 hits reduced = 15 hits remaining so your interval would be 1.5.
Besides from what i noticed interval is calculated using logarithm.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

VyperionV - Lost City wrote: »

Idk how u calculated interval here but i can assure you that is wrong
In 10 sec you get 50 hits if you have 5 aps...right?
If you have dark chill then you have your aps lowered with 70 % right?
70% out of 50= 35
total of 50 hits - 35 hits reduced = 15 hits remaining so your interval would be 1.5.
Besides from what i noticed interval is calculated using logarithm.

You just don't know how it works. If what you said was true, then 2.86 wouldn't spark to 4.0, but 3.5. Which it doesn't.

Attack speed buffs and debuffs work off the attack interval, which is the inverse of attack speed.

If you didn't notice, all attack intervals in the game are multiples of 1/20. For example, 1.43 attack speed happens to be exactly 0.7 attack interval, or an attack speed of 20 attacks every 14 seconds.

Simply speaking, you're overthinking the formula. Here's a few tips:
1. Attack interval = 1/attack speed, rounded to an accuracy of 0.05.
2. All attack speed buffs (debuffs) are reductions (additions) to the original attack interval and their stacking is additive.
3. Final attack interval is rounded to the nearest 0.05. In the case of being in the middle, rounded down.
4. Your final attack speed is the inverse of the number you ended up with in 3.

So, in summary:
Final Attack Speed = 1/({{(1 / AttackSpeed )}*(1 + attackspeebuff% - attackspeeddebuff%)})

Where {} indicates rounding to the nearest 0.05.

Well that's how you do it if you have only your attack speed to start with. The game uses Attack Interval as the basis instead, where it defines Attack Interval = x/20 and Attack Speed = 1/Attack Interval, with the same rules still applying in regards to rounding and buffs and debuffs. This is pretty obvious when you realize that the game has an attack interval that goes in steps of 0.05 whereas attack speed makes some huge jumps.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Olblaze just basically said it all.

There's also a chart around that gives a good reference to APS as well. Okeano has it

I trust their words on it because it works out for me ^^

VyperionV - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

You just don't know how it works. If what you said was true, then 2.86 wouldn't spark to 4.0, but 3.5. Which it doesn't.

Attack speed buffs and debuffs work off the attack interval, which is the inverse of attack speed.

If you didn't notice, all attack intervals in the game are multiples of 1/20. For example, 1.43 attack speed happens to be exactly 0.7 attack interval, or an attack speed of 20 attacks every 14 seconds.

Simply speaking, you're overthinking the formula. Here's a few tips:
1. Attack interval = 1/attack speed, rounded to an accuracy of 0.05.
2. All attack speed buffs (debuffs) are reductions (additions) to the original attack interval and their stacking is additive.
3. Final attack interval is rounded to the nearest 0.05. In the case of being in the middle, rounded down.
4. Your final attack speed is the inverse of the number you ended up with in 3.

So, in summary:
Final Attack Speed = 1/({{(1 / AttackSpeed )}*(1 + attackspeebuff% - attackspeeddebuff%)})

Where {} indicates rounding to the nearest 0.05.

Well that's how you do it if you have only your attack speed to start with. The game uses Attack Interval as the basis instead, where it defines Attack Interval = x/20 and Attack Speed = 1/Attack Interval, with the same rules still applying in regards to rounding and buffs and debuffs. This is pretty obvious when you realize that the game has an attack interval that goes in steps of 0.05 whereas attack speed makes some huge jumps.

I won't read all the calculations.
Game has specific values such as 2,2 ; 2,86 ; 3,33 ; 4 ; 5.
But even though it shows 4 you don't actually have 4 interval.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/
use that link and compare the interval you get there with the interval you get in game.
There was a math progresion that calculated the interval. Something with a logarythm but i forgot how to calculate or i'd show u.
Anyway...chill + fist does not give 5 aps. Don't fool yourself with that!

Okeano - Harshlands

VyperionV - Lost City wrote: »

I won't read all the calculations.
Game has specific values such as 2,2 ; 2,86 ; 3,33 ; 4 ; 5.
But even though it shows 4 you don't actually have 4 interval.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/
use that link and compare the interval you get there with the interval you get in game.
There was a math progresion that calculated the interval. Something with a logarythm but i forgot how to calculate or i'd show u.
Anyway...chill + fist does not give 5 aps. Don't fool yourself with that!

"You don't actually have 4 interval"? WTF is a 4 interval? And you actually link us the calc? The interval out put of the calc is incorrect. Mind you pw calc isn't a god but a program wrote by a person. Get 3.33 unsparked on calc then put on demon spark and see if you actually get 5.0. No you get a funky number. Or maybe the calc is correct and the 5.0 shown by the game itself is wrong?

Yes there's a logarithm for calculate interval and I learned it before your Sin (or any Sin for that matter) even existed. Chill applies to your interval better attack just like demon spark or any other thing that applies to "attack speed". I won't write out the calculation since you probably won't read it again like previous post. So why don't you see for yourself here. If you are actually 5 APS, you'll know that she's 5 APS in the video by the chi gaining speed, i.e. gaining more than 3 sparks before demon spark is over, since 4 APS barely gets you 3 full sparks.

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Going HA with your sin should only be done if you already have an HA class (Barb/BM) on the same account, and wish to keep costs down by sharing gear.

It's not a bad build, but is pretty much limited to PvE only since you'll have to nerf a lot of extra dex for the str stat, and that will hurt you in PK/PvP since you'll be doing **** damage.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Going HA with your sin should only be done if you already have an HA class (Barb/BM) on the same account, and wish to keep costs down by sharing gear.

It's not a bad build, but is pretty much limited to PvE only since you'll have to nerf a lot of extra dex for the str stat, and that will hurt you in PK/PvP since you'll be doing **** damage.

Well, to get the most out of HA, you'd preferably restat to pure STR and use Claws.

Coupled with Sage, that gets you some mighty durability: HA, 5 aps, Sage Bloodpaint, Sage Focused Mind and Sage Spark.

SaiIorMoon - Lost City

I watched a HA sin, full int gear, nv daggers use two demon sparks and still dropped to my barb friend. Also got 1 shot by triple spark earthen

AuroraLucia - Archosaur

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, to get the most out of HA, you'd preferably restat to pure STR and use Claws.

Coupled with Sage, that gets you some mighty durability: HA, 5 aps, Sage Bloodpaint, Sage Focused Mind and Sage Spark.

Would you mind explaining how losing the extra damage from Daggers and Dagger Devotion for something that will give you the same APS will get you the most out of HA?

HA with Daggers

HA with Fists

Note that both do have sage spark on.

Edit: nevermind, forgot to put Rank 8 top on the Fists.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

AuroraLucia - Archosaur wrote: »

Would you mind explaining how losing the extra damage from Daggers and Dagger Devotion for something that will give you the same APS will get you the most out of HA?

HA with Daggers

HA with Fists

Note that both do have sage spark on.

Edit: nevermind, forgot to put Rank 8 top on the Fists.

Note both don't have Sage Spark on. Your HA Dagger build has Demon spark.

Fact: You can only ever reach 4 aps with Daggers and Sage.

Note: If you get 5 aps with HA and Demon, you don't get the 25% reduction from Sage Spark. And you also end up losing dagger damage for HA. If you're going for HA, you might as well go pure str.

Also, your HA with fists build is ****, you have 275 dex. Not to mention you're using freaking Ashura ornaments. This is more like what I was talking about. Comparing that to your "HA with daggers", I notice the following:

1. My build has ~1,300 more HP.
2. My build has ~7k more Pdef
3. My build has ~102,156 avg DPS, yours has ~113,790 with Demon Spark.

You obviously missed that I mentioned using Sage for durability reasons. Also, why the living hell are you using HA and LA helmet? Not to mention using Ashura ornaments.

People go HA to sacrifice damage for defense. Going with claws and Sage means you get the most defense you can while maintaining 5 aps.

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Note both don't have Sage Spark on. Your HA Dagger build has Demon spark.

Fact: You can only ever reach 4 aps with Daggers and Sage.

Note: If you get 5 aps with HA and Demon, you don't get the 25% reduction from Sage Spark. And you also end up losing dagger damage for HA. If you're going for HA, you might as well go pure str.

Also, your HA with fists build is ****, you have 275 dex. Not to mention you're using freaking Ashura ornaments. This is more like what I was talking about. Comparing that to your "HA with daggers", I notice the following:

1. My build has ~1,300 more HP.
2. My build has ~7k more Pdef
3. My build has ~102,156 avg DPS, yours has ~113,790 with Demon Spark.

You obviously missed that I mentioned using Sage for durability reasons. Also, why the living hell are you using HA and LA helmet? Not to mention using Ashura ornaments.

People go HA to sacrifice damage for defense. Going with claws and Sage means you get the most defense you can while maintaining 5 aps.

Just out of curiosity, why are you using +12 mold ring for the second slot rather than rank badge/2nd lunar ring?

Also, why is all your gear +12 when the most reasonable builds can acquire only +5~+10. Also, why would you waste money on +12 TT100 fists when such money can be used to purchase +10 first cast Nirvy daggers, which will deal more damage than your +12 fists.

Better yet, wouldn't your money be better spent on rank 9/pure dex build, for far more overall damage, and on DoTs in lieu of vit stones/cit gems?

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, why are you using +12 mold ring for the second slot rather than rank badge/2nd lunar ring?

Because I used the build from the person I quoted and only changed the armors, cape and weapon.

Also, why is all your gear +12 when the most reasonable builds can acquire only +5~+10. Also, why would you waste money on +12 TT100 fists when such money can be used to purchase +10 first cast Nirvy daggers, which will deal more damage than your +12 fists.

Again, because the person I quoted used +12 and all G12 citrines.

I just wanted the fairest comparison with the least amount of work.

AuroraLucia - Archosaur

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Note both don't have Sage Spark on. Your HA Dagger build has Demon spark.

Fact: You can only ever reach 4 aps with Daggers and Sage.

Note: If you get 5 aps with HA and Demon, you don't get the 25% reduction from Sage Spark. And you also end up losing dagger damage for HA. If you're going for HA, you might as well go pure str.

Also, your HA with fists build is ****, you have 275 dex. Not to mention you're using freaking Ashura ornaments. This is more like what I was talking about. Comparing that to your "HA with daggers", I notice the following:

1. My build has ~1,300 more HP.
2. My build has ~7k more Pdef
3. My build has ~102,156 avg DPS, yours has ~113,790 with Demon Spark.

You obviously missed that I mentioned using Sage for durability reasons. Also, why the living hell are you using HA and LA helmet? Not to mention using Ashura ornaments.

People go HA to sacrifice damage for defense. Going with claws and Sage means you get the most defense you can while maintaining 5 aps.

Hmm, guess I forgot to put the build with Lionheart ornaments rather than Ashuras.

I also thought I had switched it over to sage, but I must have accidentally switched it back or just thought I did.

As for the 275 Dex, I actually had put it over to 151 Dex and 354 Str, but I must have forgotten to replace the URL with the that one. I was tired, give me a break. Lol b:laugh

Other than that, yep I pretty much screwed up the gears. Anyways, as I had said before, I do realize that the fist build was better anyways just because of it having 5 APS without spark, once I put the rank 8 top on that is. Anyways, thanks for the corrections.

Jellytot - Harshlands

This topic intrested me,since me myself has a HA fist sin its really just a build that i used to give me somethin diff in game was bored of daggers so went fists and restated STR i agree it helps to have bm on same accoutn sharin gears makes things cheapers.

Just like to point out HA fists isnt only good for pve my sin atm (being completly honest) is 96 right +5 deicides at 3.33 sparked i sit with 9.8k def with sage bell and 12.4k with cleric buffs added yes its not as much as bms ill agree fully there but i must point out i have done fairly well in terms of pvp with fists and its agaisnt ppl my lvl.

Honestly ive killed a few R8 sins even with fc gold fists before i got deicdes i killed 2-3 r8 sins if u ask me its not how ur char is built its how u play ur char and whether or not u can make up for the disadvanatges of fists ie.no skills

I have tt70 dags just for buffin BP and so on i dont mind if anyone comments on this post just wanted to point out that HA isnt as bad as ppl think long as u can make up for ur losses

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

Jellytot - Harshlands wrote: »

This topic intrested me,since me myself has a HA fist sin its really just a build that i used to give me somethin diff in game was bored of daggers so went fists and restated STR i agree it helps to have bm on same accoutn sharin gears makes things cheapers.

Just like to point out HA fists isnt only good for pve my sin atm (being completly honest) is 96 right +5 deicides at 3.33 sparked i sit with 9.8k def with sage bell and 12.4k with cleric buffs added yes its not as much as bms ill agree fully there but i must point out i have done fairly well in terms of pvp with fists and its agaisnt ppl my lvl.

Honestly ive killed a few R8 sins even with fc gold fists before i got deicdes i killed 2-3 r8 sins if u ask me its not how ur char is built its how u play ur char and whether or not u can make up for the disadvanatges of fists ie.no skills

I have tt70 dags just for buffin BP and so on i dont mind if anyone comments on this post just wanted to point out that HA isnt as bad as ppl think long as u can make up for ur losses

I'm at 8.2k pdef with lv. 10 Bell and cleric buffs, and full LA. The only thing your heavy armor is giving you is better HP from refines, and a greater likelihood of being ***** by mages unless you've got mdef shards in your gear.

And similarly refined/sharded, I'm guessing daggers are going to deal more damage than your fists, since I've ripped hate off of 3.33 (sparked) 100 BMs with my paltry 2.5 sparked aps (and 4 aps BMs rarely). If "making up for your losses" entails dealing less damage for taking less damage, and being unable to use skills quickly, I really hope you're using a pair of +10 Deicides with two Drakeflames in them, and are 3.33 APS after Chill of the Deep, to counterbalance what you're using.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

O.o who the hell can drop 24 stones of gaea on their gear? that's 144 cits for something slightly worse than vit stones

Other than that Aurora's builds look disastrous.

HA sins are for farming. that's about it. They're great if you know what you're doing