O.o at this cleric in bh fire

L_y_n_x - Raging Tide · February 2011

I will agree that cleric's job is heal first then DD. A good cleric can actually do both to speed up time. I duoed bh59 with my wife (cleric same level as my barb) and she does a amazing job to keep me as full hp as possible then DD till I get around 70% hp, then stop DD'ing and heal me back up. Usually when i'm full, we both know she's gonna DD a bit so I use either solid shield on genie, or gobble up a rock powder to let her DD a few secs more and not stress about my hp.

As for having 2 clerics in a squad, I agree one can turn DD for almost the whole run, but does that really happen a lot ?

Throughout aps squads, they are stil "normal" squads in which, if a cleric don't do his/her primary job (heal) it will in fact, put the squad in danger. Exemple : Cleric just wants to DD, tank is not charmed, omg..he dies..rest goes haywire..and fast.

Imagine in a non-aps squad going FC. Barb lures all on him, DD do their assigned roles, but ohh..cleric had to go quick afk 2 feets from all mobs and "forgot" to set up BB. How funny would that be ?

SQUISHKASS - Sanctuary · February 2011

From personal experience, as the number of clerics in squad increases, in most cases so does the % of deaths as well.

One is enough in that instance, & you know who to blame if the healing is complete ****.

L_y_n_x - Raging Tide · February 2011

SQUISHKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

From personal experience, as the number of clerics in squad increases, in most cases so does the % of deaths as well.

One is enough in that instance, & you know who to blame if the healing is complete ****.

Kinda agree with that. A oracled cleric can do a TERRIBLE job healing but some tanks I know also rely too much on the cleric, meaning, stop ALL forms of self-healing (why use pots, ToP, crab meats, solid shield or whatnot, cleric is there !! )

Those I dislike for blaming cleric if they die.

And I still see calls for FC.. Paying barb "x" amount of coins and crab meat to come tank. No one thinks about clerics ? In a non-aps squad : cleric > barb in a way and not all can cash shop, so who really took time to think how much mana burned off a charm it takes one through a full run ? Quickly estimated : Mana burned off a mp charm during a run > repairs to barbs.

Phenix - Lost City · February 2011

So when I see 2 clerics in a squad, I know deaths will happen. Each of them is thinking "my gear and mattk is better then theirs so I should DD". But neither of them actually SAY it. So what happens is that both EPs DD until people start ticking their charms, die and start yelling.

If ever you are in a 2 or 3 cleric squad, refuse to start the instance until one of them agrees to do the actual healing (they can switch off if you want but that might turn into babysitting) so its better to have 1 do the entire instance.

A cleric that doesnt heal is a fail mage. If you want to DD, choose an attack class. A cleric (even if pure build) is NOT an attack class. They can deal some damage, even good damage in certain circumstances, but the class was created to heal, attack skills are there for when they are soloing or in a party with another cleric (see rules above).

A cleric that doesnt heal is like a barb that doesnt Bite or Roar, a BM that doesnt Stun or Dragon, an Archer that doesnt Sharptooth.... do I really need to go on? If you insist on calling yourself a fail mage ... I mean an attack cleric.... then only respond to DD calls, not ones looking for a (healing) cleric. And when you join the party, very clearly state that you are there to DD, not heal.

My two cents.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · February 2011

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

anyway, here is a test: make a cleric build, calculate dps
now switch the cleric to wizard in pwicalc and calculate the dps.
i seriously doubt that the cleric will do more dmg but since i havent checked all the builds i wont say that it's impossible.

a cleric can out damage two classes... pet less veno and vit tiger barb. and of these two classes... the cleric can only hold aggro over the pet less veno. to have a cleric tank is one of the most inefficient for killing bosses.

the game is built that any physical class (to date) will out damage a cleric if the necessity arises. and when it comes to magic classes... a cleric can bearly hold a candle to a wiz or red voodoo psy. having a cleric dd instead of heal... is more or less like having a wiz heal instead of dd. i have had a wiz heal me... cause i have no other healer available. but when it comes to dd... pretty much any other class is a better dd then a cleric... so the choice is ALWAYS there. even the classes that a cleric can out dd will be more of an asset then a heal less cleric. pet less veno doesn't exist... every freaking veno out there has a pet. and if i am not getting heals... i would much perfer a barb for the buffs alone then having a **** bit extra attack to poke the boss with.

there is actually a pretty good chance that replacing a heal less cleric with a barb for buffs/devour... would shorten the boss time due to extra phy damages for the dds and the phy debuffs.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · February 2011

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

a cleric can out damage two classes... pet less veno and vit tiger barb. and of these two classes... the cleric can only hold aggro over the pet less veno. to have a cleric tank is one of the most inefficient for killing bosses.

the game is built that any physical class (to date) will out damage a cleric if the necessity arises. and when it comes to magic classes... a cleric can bearly hold a candle to a wiz or red voodoo psy. having a cleric dd instead of heal... is more or less like having a wiz heal instead of dd. i have had a wiz heal me... cause i have no other healer available. but when it comes to dd... pretty much any other class is a better dd then a cleric... so the choice is ALWAYS there. even the classes that a cleric can out dd will be more of an asset then a heal less cleric. pet less veno doesn't exist... every freaking veno out there has a pet. and if i am not getting heals... i would much perfer a barb for the buffs alone then having a **** bit extra attack to poke the boss with.

there is actually a pretty good chance that replacing a heal less cleric with a barb for buffs/devour... would shorten the boss time due to extra phy damages for the dds and the phy debuffs.

Neh... Totally disagree on the petless veno part. Unless it's a Nix, even a Veno with a Pet will be out-dded by a Cleric, unless it's a pure magic veno build. LA and HA are so low damage, it's not even really worth doing unless you have a high damage pet.

Damage per hit, the Cleric does pretty hard hits in the lower levels. After about 50, everything else passes the cleric, which is where you really start running in squads anyway.

My cleric is a healer. If I'm in a party with another cleric, I tell them to DD, and I heal only, unless they tell me to DD, and they will heal. I'll keep an eye on health bars, and add healing only if necessary then, such as, if BB is up, and the tank is getting low on health.

However, due to the rampant stupidity of people in the 70's, I have stopped playing my cleric.

Mazsi_two - Dreamweaver · February 2011

im cleric. i hate other cleric in squad. i do all bh alone as cleric (expect if i got invited, or my friend

) i can dd and heal. ppls can die next to me to. it happen ing. i do 90 % uncharmed (got IH o.o). okay wut else? :P

QQ peace

b:cute

Twylyt - Sanctuary · February 2011

I go on many runs and many times w/more than 1 cleric. Done bh's w/just an all cleric squad and never had issues. I make it a point to always ask "You wanna DD or heal?" so I know the squad is covered.
And as for the clerics not being a great DD...they are. I hit on average 30-40k non crit BUT, like a few have mentioned...by the time another DD'er comes along...they have had prolly 5 crits in the time i've casted and had 1.
But I wouldn't avoid all squads just bc there is more than one cleric. One SHOULD be healing and the other can be DD and support healing when needed cuz u gotta love those lag spikes at the wrong time. >.<
I don't avoid squads w/more than one bm...or two barbs, 4 sins, etc. Think outside the box and just avoid those you have squaded with and weren't healing. b:victory

Conavar - Heavens Tear · February 2011

Don't want to heal ? Then be prepared to get kicked .. Meh who care's we will all be taking Mystics instead soon anyway

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · February 2011

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Neh... Totally disagree on the petless veno part. Unless it's a Nix, even a Veno with a Pet will be out-dded by a Cleric, unless it's a pure magic veno build. LA and HA are so low damage, it's not even really worth doing unless you have a high damage pet.

a veno's magic multipler is lower then a cleric... so regardless of build... a cleric will out damage the veno alone. but while a cleric's damage is greater then the veno or the pet alone. the combine damage between the veno and its pet (even a bee or a scorpion) will be greater then the cleric.

the damage is even noticeable if the pet is tanking. take herc for example. when tanking the herc can also draw upon its reflect to count toward its own damage. this is why you still see herc tanks for lower refined squads in some tts.... where the herc alone (with veno healing) is enough to hold aggro over lesser dds (which include the cleric as well).

EDIT: lets not forget the lack of damage reduction from pet attacks on "?" cleric.

in the old days... where barb still actually tank stuff. a pet has to turn off its skills... or even a reaming barb would lose aggro to a pet. you also people to tell archers to hold back so not to steal aggro. but i have never heard anyone to tell a dding cleric to hold back.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · February 2011

I have never had the experiences people are describing in a two cleric squad, even had one instance go much faster. The barb pulled everything in the whole room, one cleric BB the other RB and it was done before you can say dang thats really fast, even saved a squad wipe once. All it takes is communication. If I see a second cleric, I always check their lvl + gear, and determine based off that which of us should be healing and which should be DD and back up heal/rez.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · February 2011

dimented wrote: »

Well one said "there is 3 tanks, buy charm" the other was trying to say my bm was fail, when the other bm in squad also died. I never had any problem before. I just finished my todays bh fire like 5 mins ago with 1 cleric. It was a great run. No deaths. So again I ask.. 1 pro cleric> 2 fail clerics?

If one cleric had to deal with 3 tanks, that can be a lot to juggle. One cleric might have trouble healing 4 different "tanks" if they all need aggressive heals and she can't BB for whatever reason. In this case, someone should have realized what was going on and switched to DD if you all didn't want to boot the problem cleric. You got to adjust to squad dynamics otherwise you end up with fails all along. If you wanted the squad (and all wanted to stay in) to go smoothly, you should have either A)kicked the problem cleric and brought in another DD to help the squishiest of you two so that everyone stays alive. B)Had the healing cleric BB and only take on collectively what you could manage in it or C) Switched to a one tank system, and if you decide to make things go faster by running off and DDing than only take on what you can handle by yourself. This whole things sounds like a fail in communication to me and not necessarily the fault of an individual.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

but i have never heard anyone to tell a dding cleric to hold back.

I just had a fist BM tell me to stop attacking in BH29 after I stole aggro from him. O.O he was same level as me I believe too. Luckily I've been soloing BH29 of late and don't need anyone else even if it takes a bit, so I just kept attacking and finished off the boss anyway. So since I know it probably doesn't count because he probably don't have 5aps yet and I am vit build so it definitely wasn't cuz i have mad skillz or anything like that, but still it happened. So never say never. b:laugh b:pleased

_Pale - Sanctuary · February 2011

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

well, my input:
BH Warsong, TT, RB - don't take anyone under 5k HP and without a lvl 99+ weapon.

... stuff...

BH Abbadon, SoT - don't care, all I need is BP.

If I can do these as single cleric in a squad at lvl 93 with a requiem blade, without a charm and at buffed HP around 5k then I don't think the healing power or squishy-ness of your cleric should be a big problem. You write that you only need BP during a run, so apparently in your case there is not that much healing required, especially since you're not a melee class. The 5k HP and 99+ weapon as a minimum requirement seems a bit strange if you're referring to the cleric.

oxytorch · February 2011

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Now, I don't want to sound like I'm being too bossy here, since my only cleric alt is about level 20 and I freely admit to having no experience with them, but...

If you're not healing, why the <RABBITS!> are you playing a cleric? You <BUNNY!> twit! It's what a cleric is <LAGOMORPHICALLY!> good at! Everyone <FLUFFY!> expects you to do it, so <HOPPING!> well DO it!

<RABBITS!><RABBITS!><RABBITS!><BUNNY!><RABBITS!>

Edit: Automatic swear censoring is <HOPPING!><RABBITS!>.

LMAO most original post i've ever seen . Epic !! b:laugh b:laugh

P.S .. my Cleric is a full support cleric.. i DD on my other toons !!!!!!

flamingahole · February 2011

oxytorch wrote: »

P.S .. my Cleric is a full support cleric.. i DD on my other toons !!!!!!

I've seen clerics heal, DD, and debuff at the same time. According to them it's not difficult but then again my cleric is only in her 50s right now so I wouldn't know how much of that is false modesty.

Admante - Dreamweaver · February 2011

I don't understand this full att cleric thing. It's like going into only one weapon tree as a BM: stupid. It's even worse here because people expect and rely on you to be healing.

With that said, I don't think it's that hard as a cleric to be healing, debuffing, and throwing a tempest when chi builds up for something as simple as a BH. I've personally done it.

Roseary - Sanctuary · February 2011

Clerics should heal

Archers should use bows

Blademasters should use swords

Barbarians should tank

Some people are just so.. so stupid.

Xoria - Sanctuary · February 2011

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

well, my input:
BH Warsong, TT, RB - don't take anyone under 5k HP and without a lvl 99+ weapon. As soon as someone doesn't do their job either kick or leave squad. I sometimes try to explain ppl what do to, if I see they at least trying, I stay. If not I leave and search another squad. Losing time with a fail squad is worse than just trying to find a new one.
BH Abbadon, SoT - don't care, all I need is BP.

Response: Lol....

Done most of those with under 4k HP- generally at 3.7k HP to be exact. It's how you know how to play your cleric. I'm usually the last player to fall at warsong squad wipe with no barb buff at 4,016 HP. Still used the Blade of Red Dust as well.I don't even use HP pots... magic defence charms are your friend. Same for TT and RB. Also, on the note of rebirth, the cleric shouldn't get hit at all if the squad is decent. Therefore, the cleric's hp really doesn't matter.

USE THOSE POTS/CHARMS/APOTH/DEFENCE CHARMS TO COMPLETE YOUR GOAL!!

Must - Lost City · February 2011

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

*sigh
nub

+1

U both nabs.....

I rather take a dd cleric on squad than a wizard why, well clerics have debuff phisical and mag resistance while not hithing harder than a wiz he will provide the squad a faster dd and boss kill b:bye

Ursa - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Xoria - Sanctuary wrote: »

Response: Lol....

Done most of those with under 4k HP- generally at 3.7k HP to be exact. It's how you know how to play your cleric. I'm usually the last player to fall at warsong squad wipe with no barb buff at 4,016 HP. Still used the Blade of Red Dust as well.I don't even use HP pots... magic defence charms are your friend. Same for TT and RB. Also, on the note of rebirth, the cleric shouldn't get hit at all if the squad is decent. Therefore, the cleric's hp really doesn't matter.

USE THOSE POTS/CHARMS/APOTH/DEFENCE CHARMS TO COMPLETE YOUR GOAL!!

yeah, you're wearing a t-shirt with an S on chest? There are 1% exception from rule. Do I want to risk if you get an itch and your timings are messed up ? no. So yeah, go do your stuff with 4k HP and blade of red dust. I'm gonna search/get a R8 6k HP cleric that I can rely on even if he falls asleep on his keyboard.

Must - Lost City wrote: »

U both nabs.....

I rather take a dd cleric on squad than a wizard why, well clerics have debuff phisical and mag resistance while not hithing harder than a wiz he will provide the squad a faster dd and boss kill b:bye

yeah, that awesome cleric si gonna DD and debuff for more than a 4-5 aps Sin/BM/Archer/Barb. kewl, than we're all nabs.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear · February 2011

This thread is funny. I was going to comment on it with something smart-alecish, but I won't. Instead I say this:

As a Cleric, if you are doing high lelve BHs and cannot DD and heal properly (especially in bh fire), then JUST heal. You can't BB much on a BH Fire, so toss Chromatic healing and be done with it. As a Cleric it's YOUR job to know when you can DD and when you should be healing. I never "ask" the squad what I should do, so unless I am told otherwise I go on my instinct.

We have some fantastic DD ability there is no doubt about that. I love popping off 200k+ Crits, but realize if you're do that much damage likely your team is doing more. Clerics are the strongest healers in the game and largely we are irreplaceable as such. So Be a healer first a DD (debuff) second and just learn to multitask to help your team the best.

I have my reservations about doing some things as a cleric like saving someones charm who is doing **** things to burn it and then complain that I am not keeping up (hardly ever happens now that I can heal for 7-12k with my quick heals) with them, but one thing I would never do is assume that my party doesn't need me for healing at least in some manner.

Promivius - Dreamweaver · February 2011

I have not been in any higher BH's so far but if I am in a BH I will do what is possible.

This involves more then just "boring" heals. Sure I will do my best to keep the party alive. I have my eyes basically glued to the HP-bars of my fellow party-members.

Still if I see I can do a debuff here and an attack there I will for sure do so.
As long as my MP-bar is not depleted of course.

Will I cast Razor feathers when the barb who has takes on a group of mobs?
Answer: sure I will. Provided I do not out-aggro the barb and not risk getting people killed.

Do I get the change? Well, different story altogether. I usually have to safe peoples butt as they try to show how much damage they can cast/shoot/melee or whatever.

A well-oiled party can maximize it's damage output if all players are in a team-mindset.
A cleric can maximize damage within a party with effectively placed debuffs etc.

dimented · February 2011

Yea I have to agree with Gwendolynne, if a cleric is unable to target switch and heal different people properly then the best thing to do is just party heal or BB. I played a cleric, my first toon quit about a year ago. I played with a tank friend who would lose aggro on purpose just for fun and make us clerics work extra harder, this came with fast reflexes and fast target switching. I have noticed that alot of clerics have not learned these skills and just party heal or BB and make things easier on themselves. I guess this is why I do not understand why this cleric would say "there is 3 tanks, buy a charm", most clerics just party heal in BH fire when not able to BB.

L_y_n_x - Raging Tide · February 2011

Roseary - Sanctuary wrote: »

Clerics should heal

Archers should use bows

Blademasters should use swords

Barbarians should tank

Some people are just so.. so stupid.

Perfectly summed up b:victory

I will add to it though :

Venos should know how to lure with thier pets, give chi to main tank or cleric (for BB) and bramble tank, then DD with Pet and go into DD mode when all that is said and done.(saw too many that don't even know how or won't do any..brambling themselves and not stowing pet when tryng to evade mobs in tight areas)

Wiz, well..should cast and stay far..

Psychics too. (Give soul of vengence to who wants it)

Sins, well..Unless they are heavy cash shoppers/4-5 aps, they shoudn't try to be tank.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary · February 2011

There are times were all I feel like doing is attacking as well and just res the dead untill we got to the boss.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide · February 2011

why do clerics persist on saying that they can hold a candle to any other class in DD? I'll say they can out damage an equal geared non -interval barb, and that's about it.

The cleric in beginning of thread that says he can hit 20-30k normal hit makes me laugh. I hit about 18k on average as a wiz; you know, the dph class? He's either got insanely high refines on his tt90 wep (lol) or he's plain lying, and that's all there is to it. Nothing makes his cleric so special that it can hit that high without refines- and that's mathematically proven if you even look at the skill damage calculations.

Oh and I'd like to know how he hit 114k without spark, genie skill, amp, hf, etc.

Because I've only hit 220k, and that was an undined extreme poisoned heaven flamed double sparked bids crit (and yes it was on an equal level mob).

and my best on another player is only 42k, which is on a phys marrowed blademaster with a BIDS and basically every other damage multiplier I stated earlier (level of bm was unknown, but this was in a TW against a 80+ TW fac).

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · February 2011

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

why do clerics persist on saying that they can hold a candle to any other class in DD? I'll say they can out damage an equal geared non -interval barb, and that's about it.

The cleric in beginning of thread that says he can hit 20-30k normal hit makes me laugh. I hit about 18k on average as a wiz; you know, the dph class? He's either got insanely high refines on his tt90 wep (lol) or he's plain lying, and that's all there is to it. Nothing makes his cleric so special that it can hit that high without refines- and that's mathematically proven if you even look at the skill damage calculations.

Oh and I'd like to know how he hit 114k without spark, genie skill, amp, hf, etc.

Because I've only hit 220k, and that was an undined extreme poisoned heaven flamed double sparked bids crit (and yes it was on an equal level mob).

and my best on another player is only 42k, which is on a phys marrowed blademaster with a BIDS and basically every other damage multiplier I stated earlier (level of bm was unknown, but this was in a TW against a 80+ TW fac).

wtf was a BM doing with phy marrow on in TW

DaKillanator - Raging Tide · February 2011

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

wtf was a BM doing with phy marrow on in TW

Being fail long enough for me to get off a BIDS b:pleased

It was a Levi Tw so...yah...

hugoredbone · February 2011

G_ree_n - Sanctuary wrote: »

I haven't played in about 2 years, so you may be right about other classes out-damaging attack built clerics. When I played though, it was entirely possible.

That being said, I understand that in everyone's mind cleric = healer and if I showed up in a group with the intent to DD, I would bring a healing built cleric with me.

Edit: Honestly, what kind of healing do you expect a attack built cleric to do?

Well since healing and DD spells for a cleric are both based on the same stats a "DD" cleric would also be able to heal unless they didn't invest any points in healing spells, which is utter fail.

A cleric's for healing/purifying period, there's no reason for a cleric to DD unless there are more than 1 cleric or the group is doing so well that you can afford to DD on the side.

There's not a single class in the game that can't out dps clerics with exception of maybe tank barbs.

O.o at this cleric in bh fire

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