LA is bad? I don't know about that.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

I'm a jack of all trades, and have so many other characters it's not funny. My experiences are varied, from LA/AA Veno to HA/LA BM, Sin, Cleric, etc., etc., etc. Basically, in my experiences so far, LA works really well for Archer. What armor would be better, if you could move stat points without consequence to damage? HA? Playing my HA Veno right now, which is basically an Archer that only does magic damage and has **** for range, magic mobs deal a lot of damage to her. Sure, I can tank it, but my HA Veno has about the same HP as my Archer did at the same level, and when it comes to ranged magic mobs, my Veno wouldn't survive without a pet.

My LA Veno is constantly switching between LA and AA. Sometimes mixing and matching. My BM is borrowing some of my Archer's LA for instances, for the increase in MDef. IMO, the LA is a great deal for Archer. You get decent MDef, and decent PDef. You aren't a BM with 12 million PDef, and you aren't a Wiz with 12 million MDef, but you aren't a BM with 6 MDef, or a Wiz with 6 PDef.

I can take 2-3 mobs at once my own level on Archer, and survive. I can't really do that with my Venos, my pets take the aggro. My BM does just fine, as long as they do physical damage only. Marrow Magical is kind of a bandaid, if you get a phsyical and magical mob at the same time, you're screwed if you do, screwed if you don't.

And that brings me to Sin. They get very little benefit from LA. They need more PDef, and don't get it from LA. They get MDef, that they don't really need, until the 50's. So... I don't know, I am just fine with LA. So can someone tell me why, exactly, LA is not the best for Archer? I'd personally go LA regardless...

xposed1

La is bad because an average LA build gives you around 3.5k of each def.... basically a 1 shot. Some may call wizards squishy but the truth is at end game a wizard wearing arcane armor will have around 6k pdef and 9k mdef.

Not saying that any other armor type would be best for archers since LA is the only way to go for them. It's just something archers have to deal with by massively refining their gear.

lmaonade1xp

mixes are never bad, straight up LA (not including adorns) is just horrible, for reasons see the post above.

(actually LA/AA is quite bad, you're giving up a whole load of stats just to wear a couple of pieces of mediorce armor that give bonuses that don't really benefit you at all i.e evasion)

if you're going an LA/AA mix i would rather just be a vit heavy AA

LA isn't good for archer, ITS THE ONLY ARMOR THEY CAN WEAR WITHOUT WTFPWNING THEMSELVES.

that's one of the reasons why pure dex is usually the build to go, since you have low survivability (in lowbie levels) anyway, might as well build up a glass cannon.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

If the stat requirements for all armor were removed no one would want LA.

LA has the least amount

of total defense, mediocre HP refine bonus, and the highest amount of wasted stat points.

A lvl 100 pure dex LA user has 50 less stat points than a pure mag AA or a pure str HA. That's 50 points that a AA equivalent build could put in vit and still have the same amount of mag as a pure dex LA user has dex.

This is compounded with evasion being far less effective than defense or resistance.

AA low pdef isn't so bad when you consider how many pdef buffs there are, how pdef ornaments refine better than mag ornaments , and how gear pdef bonuses are more common and higher quality than mag.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

If the stat requirements for all armor were removed no one would want LA.

LA has the least amount of total defense, mediocre HP refine bonus, and the highest amount of wasted stat points.

This...

However, the game sort of makes up for the lost stats by allowing archers to use higher grade arrows. That option, coupled with ranged weapons having the highest weapon damage in the game, means archers still have the highest base damage out of all physical classes.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

lmaonade1xp wrote: »

mixes are never bad, straight up LA (not including adorns) is just horrible, for reasons see the post above.

(actually LA/AA is quite bad, you're giving up a whole load of stats just to wear a couple of pieces of mediorce armor that give bonuses that don't really benefit you at all i.e evasion)

if you're going an LA/AA mix i would rather just be a vit heavy AA

LA isn't good for archer, ITS THE ONLY ARMOR THEY CAN WEAR WITHOUT WTFPWNING THEMSELVES.

that's one of the reasons why pure dex is usually the build to go, since you have low survivability (in lowbie levels) anyway, might as well build up a glass cannon.

I'm not sure I believe that... I was using (and still, when I do use pure Arcane) Arcane only on my Veno, no matter what, I was getting threeshot by mobs my own level that did physical damage only. Without a pet, I couldn't kill them before they threeshot me. On some ranged mobs, that was very rapid, pet aggros two, pet is ganked, I've got aggro from a mob, I'm dead. I was using all Legendary gear at that point too. LA at least lets me tank the hits from a mob for more than three shots... And for AOE, I was getting oneshot, through BB, by some of the TT bosses in 1-2.

I can now with LA survive mixed AOE, often times i survive party wipes. The 7% crit rate listed on my stats translates into about 60-80% crit rate when actually taking on mobs, and AOE crits are very fun. So, did I lose base magic damage? Yes. Did I lose damage overall? No, I gained. I use Fox Form, and go mage, so I gained overall in both respects. I can survive a lot more now than I used to, and not just survive, but survive and kill whatever wiped the party in some cases. Mixed fail? I don't think so. And HA veno... Mine uses Arcane too. b:chuckle

My main surprise comes from comparing LA on Archer to LA on Sin. Same armor, same level, legendary unrefined two socket weapons on both... I can take on 2-3 mobs my own level on my Archer and survive, I cannot even dream about doing that on my Sin.

If the PDef and MDef is so horrible at endgame, then how come I see 101 archers tanking instances with fist/claw/bow? Or are those just the insane cashshoppers that spent more than Wizzled getting their gear?

I'm just trying to understand the QQ now about gear. And maybe my playstyle is just radically different than everyone else'. XD

lmaonade1xp

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm not sure I believe that... I was using (and still, when I do use pure Arcane) Arcane only on my Veno, no matter what, I was getting threeshot by mobs my own level that did physical damage only. Without a pet, I couldn't kill them before they threeshot me. On some ranged mobs, that was very rapid, pet aggros two, pet is ganked, I've got aggro from a mob, I'm dead. I was using all Legendary gear at that point too. LA at least lets me tank the hits from a mob for more than three shots... And for AOE, I was getting oneshot, through BB, by some of the TT bosses in 1-2.

I can now with LA survive mixed AOE, often times i survive party wipes. The 7% crit rate listed on my stats translates into about 60-80% crit rate when actually taking on mobs, and AOE crits are very fun. So, did I lose base magic damage? Yes. Did I lose damage overall? No, I gained. I use Fox Form, and go mage, so I gained overall in both respects. I can survive a lot more now than I used to, and not just survive, but survive and kill whatever wiped the party in some cases. Mixed fail? I don't think so. And HA veno... Mine uses Arcane too. b:chuckle

My main surprise comes from comparing LA on Archer to LA on Sin. Same armor, same level, legendary unrefined two socket weapons on both... I can take on 2-3 mobs my own level on my Archer and survive, I cannot even dream about doing that on my Sin.

If the PDef and MDef is so horrible at endgame, then how come I see 101 archers tanking instances with fist/claw/bow? Or are those just the insane cashshoppers that spent more than Wizzled getting their gear?

I'm just trying to understand the QQ now about gear. And maybe my playstyle is just radically different than everyone else'. XD

money negates and nullifies everything automatically, 5.0 aps + bloodpaint and anyone can tank anything really >.>

LA uses up a lot of stat points for less total defense (simple addition of pDef and mDef), every possible combination of other armors beats out LA's total defense, why do you think there is the HA/AA build for the veno? even if you built HA/AA to balance out your defenses (like LA, which has balanced defenses), you would end up with higher pDef and higher mDef than LA.

and I never said mixed failed, I personally love HA/AA veno (or even cleric for that matter, I swap my equipments back and forth )

flamingahole

lmaonade1xp wrote: »

money negates and nullifies everything automatically, 5.0 aps + bloodpaint and anyone can tank anything really >.>

I was under the impression that bloodpaint didn't work for archers.

-checks description in game-

Yup, only available for blademasters, barbarians, and assassins.

If I had to guess then an archer could solo tank with with 4 APS, sage spark, and a ****ton of HP.

lmaonade1xp

flamingahole wrote: »

I was under the impression that bloodpaint didn't work for archers.

-checks description in game-

Yup, only available for blademasters, barbarians, and assassins.

If I had to guess then an archer could solo tank with with 4 APS, sage spark, and a ****ton of HP.

ah thanks for the clarification

probably a cleric in sarra's example >.>, and yeah sage spark tanking is pretty boss because of the damage reduction, but solo tanking would be absolute charm **** :[

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

lmaonade1xp wrote: »

money negates and nullifies everything automatically, 5.0 aps + bloodpaint and anyone can tank anything really >.>

LA uses up a lot of stat points for less total defense (simple addition of pDef and mDef), every possible combination of other armors beats out LA's total defense, why do you think there is the HA/AA build for the veno? even if you built HA/AA to balance out your defenses (like LA, which has balanced defenses), you would end up with higher pDef and higher mDef than LA.

and I never said mixed failed, I personally love HA/AA veno (or even cleric for that matter, I swap my equipments back and forth )

I dislike HA for veno for two reasons, having played it a bit now.

1) The crit rate isn't as good... Meaning, an HA Veno does less damage than a pure mage or a vit/magic build. The weird crit rate on LA balances out the lack of magic points... And means your overall damage as a caster suffers on HA Veno. LA can cast or melee, and do more damage than pure mage... I'm a mix, since I restatted somewhere in my 60's from pure mage to more of a fox build LA. I dumped EXP into genies to get some spirit and level some skills a few times.

2) The stat points suck a lot more for HA than they do for LA. Even with a decent tome, I've run out of stat points for my HA Veno at 30. Buying gear off AH with the bonuses I need is tedious, and sometimes impossible. LA doesn't need the bonuses as much, but they help.

3) If you are wearing HA and get nailed by a mob that does magic damage, you're kinda out of luck. You gotta either tank it, or kite. With LA, you get a bit of MDef, plus the bonus from the magic needed for your pew-pew, so MDef is pretty good, and you can take the hits easier than you'd think.

I don't have a water pet on my Veno... Water quests = I do it petless, and solo. I like the combo of survivability and damage I get from that build...

Not gonna buy a 300m tome to equip my armor and magic weapon, and I'm not going Fist veno, I have a BM for that.

lmaonade1xp

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

I dislike HA for veno for two reasons, having played it a bit now.

1) The crit rate isn't as good... Meaning, an HA Veno does less damage than a pure mage or a vit/magic build. The weird crit rate on LA balances out the lack of magic points... And means your overall damage as a caster suffers on HA Veno. LA can cast or melee, and do more damage than pure mage... I'm a mix, since I restatted somewhere in my 60's from pure mage to more of a fox build LA. I dumped EXP into genies to get some spirit and level some skills a few times.

2) The stat points suck a lot more for HA than they do for LA. Even with a decent tome, I've run out of stat points for my HA Veno at 30. Buying gear off AH with the bonuses I need is tedious, and sometimes impossible. LA doesn't need the bonuses as much, but they help.

3) If you are wearing HA and get nailed by a mob that does magic damage, you're kinda out of luck. You gotta either tank it, or kite. With LA, you get a bit of MDef, plus the bonus from the magic needed for your pew-pew, so MDef is pretty good, and you can take the hits easier than you'd think.

I don't have a water pet on my Veno... Water quests = I do it petless, and solo. I like the combo of survivability and damage I get from that build...

Not gonna buy a 300m tome to equip my armor and magic weapon, and I'm not going Fist veno, I have a BM for that.

Crit rate is indeed low, but if you are going to build an HA veno, you must already have a defensive mindset anyway, similar to building a regular AA veno with alot of vit.

I started on HA at level 90, and am using a level 2 tome: meditation's flame, my stat points are fine with my level 90 gold TT cape (ghost lord's cape)

And I build HA/AA veno, with balanced defense in mind so I have both high pdef and mdef, (at 90 buffed with cleric buffs i was over 6k defense for both, not in fox form), and this set together gives me more defense than a straight LA set can provide, AND ON TOP OF THAT, i get to switch out my chest, leggings, and boots to either HA OR AA, whatever sort of damage I'm facing at the moment.

tl;dr: HA/AA is defensive and versatile

and we should probably not derail the thread into a veno topic b:laugh

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

lmaonade1xp wrote: »

Crit rate is indeed low, but if you are going to build an HA veno, you must already have a defensive mindset anyway, similar to building a regular AA veno with alot of vit.

I started on HA at level 90, and am using a level 2 tome: meditation's flame, my stat points are fine with my level 90 gold TT cape (ghost lord's cape)

And I build HA/AA veno, with balanced defense in mind so I have both high pdef and mdef, (at 90 buffed with cleric buffs i was over 6k defense for both, not in fox form), and this set together gives me more defense than a straight LA set can provide, AND ON TOP OF THAT, i get to switch out my chest, leggings, and boots to either HA OR AA, whatever sort of damage I'm facing at the moment.

tl;dr: HA/AA is defensive and versatile

and we should probably not derail the thread into a veno topic b:laugh

lol I've been thinking the same thing. XD

My original thought for this thread was... If Sin and Archer run LA... It's not so bad for Archer, you can kill it before it gets to you. On Sin, LA has to take melee damage all the time. And if Archers were, by some flawed mechanic in the game, HA, we'd all be screwed on ranged magic mobs. b:chuckle So, would everyone rather run HA at endgame, or does everyone want better HP bonuses out of refines on LA on endgame gear? What's the way to 'fix' LA for Archers?

lmaonade1xp

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol I've been thinking the same thing. XD

My original thought for this thread was... If Sin and Archer run LA... It's not so bad for Archer, you can kill it before it gets to you. On Sin, LA has to take melee damage all the time. And if Archers were, by some flawed mechanic in the game, HA, we'd all be screwed on ranged magic mobs. b:chuckle So, would everyone rather run HA at endgame, or does everyone want better HP bonuses out of refines on LA on endgame gear? What's the way to 'fix' LA for Archers?

yup, sins are disadvantaged being melee, but that's why have distance closing skills and amazing/overpowered stun and freeze skills. (and evidentally, it is also why they are made such 1 vs 1 beasts)

If i had the choice the take HA as an archer without completely destroying my stat build, I would in a heartbeat (and wear elemental neckies and belts to balance out my defenses), HA has better overall (and by this i mean total) defense and better hp from refines (waaaaay better in higher refining)

there is no way to fix LA for archers :<, it's a part of their "glass cannon" status. they are built for damage, and are given a mediocre main armor set xD

_Leif - Lost City

HA is hands down the best armor in the game. Most pdef, highest HP on refining, and is honestly the only armor in game that doesn't make a male character look ridiculous.

Arcane gear sucks, granted. That said, nearly all arcane-wearing classes have some sort of buff that massively increases their pdef (stone barrier for wizzies, fox form for venos, cleric buffs). With some choice sharding and ornament refining, arcane classes easily outstrip the pdef of LAs.

LA is the obvious intermediate between the two. However, instead of taking the strengths from both, they take the weaknesses. LA pdef is pitiful, and you will still get bum ***** by full mag wizzies and the like (4k magic def is nothing).

gelnd

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

I dislike HA for veno for two reasons, having played it a bit now.

1) The crit rate isn't as good... Meaning, an HA Veno does less damage than a pure mage or a vit/magic build. The weird crit rate on LA balances out the lack of magic points... And means your overall damage as a caster suffers on HA Veno. LA can cast or melee, and do more damage than pure mage... I'm a mix, since I restatted somewhere in my 60's from pure mage to more of a fox build LA. I dumped EXP into genies to get some spirit and level some skills a few times.

I've not played a HA veno, so my thoughts on the subject are only theory... but how is it possible for a vit/mag build to outcrit a HA build, assuming they both have comparable ornaments/gear (i.e. the vit build isn't stacked with +crit stuff)? Vit/mage adds NO points to dex, but HA needs a little to wear the gear.

2) The stat points suck a lot more for HA than they do for LA. Even with a decent tome, I've run out of stat points for my HA Veno at 30. Buying gear off AH with the bonuses I need is tedious, and sometimes impossible. LA doesn't need the bonuses as much, but they help.

I believe HA is usually not recommended until 90 or so for that very reason, not to mention more restats will be needed as you continue to change gear, if you start HA from level one.

3) If you are wearing HA and get nailed by a mob that does magic damage, you're kinda out of luck. You gotta either tank it, or kite. With LA, you get a bit of MDef, plus the bonus from the magic needed for your pew-pew, so MDef is pretty good, and you can take the hits easier than you'd think.

Don't most HA users carry a set of AA as well, for just such a situation? I recall some have the two sets hotkeyed to switch at a moments notice, and thus have the best possible def for all situations.

*note* I'm LA veno myself, so I'm certainly not dissing it. I was just curious regarding your analysis of HA veno.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

HA is hands down the best armor in the game. Most pdef, highest HP on refining, and is honestly the only armor in game that doesn't make a male character look ridiculous.

Arcane gear sucks, granted. That said, nearly all arcane-wearing classes have some sort of buff that massively increases their pdef (stone barrier for wizzies, fox form for venos, cleric buffs). With some choice sharding and ornament refining, arcane classes easily outstrip the pdef of LAs.

LA is the obvious intermediate between the two. However, instead of taking the strengths from both, they take the weaknesses. LA pdef is pitiful, and you will still get bum ***** by full mag wizzies and the like (4k magic def is nothing).

Hmm... 4k MDef? I've got more than that when I go full LA... I've got Elemental ornaments on my Veno, and Fox Form gives a big PDef boost for Venos (which is why I like LA so much on her XD) For my Archer, I use both types of ornaments, and switch 'em around if I know I'm doing something particular. So, for magic damage mobs, I use Elemental ornaments, for ranged physical, I use pdef ornaments.

As for HA though... I don't like leaving myself THAT open to getting nuked by Wizzies/Psy/Venos/Clerics. And I suspect one problem I'm having is comparing LA on a Veno at 70 to LA on an Archer at 70 will give radically different MDef values, even the same armor swapped between the two, due to differences in magic points... :P Oh well... It's not easy, and I think that's how they want it to be. XD

lmaonade1xp wrote: »

yup, sins are disadvantaged being melee, but that's why have distance closing skills and amazing/overpowered stun and freeze skills. (and evidentally, it is also why they are made such 1 vs 1 beasts)

If i had the choice the take HA as an archer without completely destroying my stat build, I would in a heartbeat (and wear elemental neckies and belts to balance out my defenses), HA has better overall (and by this i mean total) defense and better hp from refines (waaaaay better in higher refining)

there is no way to fix LA for archers :<, it's a part of their "glass cannon" status. they are built for damage, and are given a mediocre main armor set xD

I don't dispute that at all... My Sin nukes my resources for coins because of massive pot use/genie use. My Archer... Makes coins for me from drops/DQ. Just seems to be a big flip flop on LA. >_> I'm waiting to level my Archer to 70 then bring my Sin up.

gelnd wrote: »

I've not played a HA veno, so my thoughts on the subject are only theory... but how is it possible for a vit/mag build to outcrit a HA build, assuming they both have comparable ornaments/gear (i.e. the vit build isn't stacked with +crit stuff)? Vit/mage adds NO points to dex, but HA needs a little to wear the gear.

It's not vit/mage that outcrits HA, it's LA builds that I like for the crit rate.

gelnd wrote: »

I believe HA is usually not recommended until 90 or so for that very reason, not to mention more restats will be needed as you continue to change gear, if you start HA from level one.

I can see why. But I hate having to buy resets, and saving points for then is stupid...

gelnd wrote: »

Don't most HA users carry a set of AA as well, for just such a situation? I recall some have the two sets hotkeyed to switch at a moments notice, and thus have the best possible def for all situations.

Can't really say for other Venos, but my lil level 30 has Rank 1 + some random wrists and footwear for AA.

gelnd wrote: »

*note* I'm LA veno myself, so I'm certainly not dissing it. I was just curious regarding your analysis of HA veno.

The PDef is really insane with fox form, I've got 2k PDef at level 30 right now. But I'm behind on my magic weapon... But not by far. I just break into the 1k hp range with fully cit sharded gear too.

Adroit - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

If the stat requirements for all armor were removed no one would want LA.

LA has the least amount of total defense, mediocre HP refine bonus, and the highest amount of wasted stat points.

A lvl 100 pure dex LA user has 50 less stat points than a pure mag AA or a pure str HA. That's 50 points that a AA equivalent build could put in vit and still have the same amount of mag as a pure dex LA user has dex.

This is compounded with evasion being far less effective than defense or resistance.

AA low pdef isn't so bad when you consider how many pdef buffs there are, how pdef ornaments refine better than mag ornaments , and how gear pdef bonuses are more common and higher quality than mag.

You're by far one of my favorite people to see post. Its strange that you aren't quoted more often.. as your posts are always seem to be very informative/correct. Wish you'd post in the wizard forums more often b:cry

Kerona - Sanctuary

Endgame, a HA user gets more heavily damaged by mages and absorbs phys hits like a wall. An AA user gets more heavily damaged by physical damage and can take arcane hits well for the most part. An LA user gets heavily damaged by both, more or less equally depending on their refines and ornaments. Mediocre protection in both directions may sound nice, but in effect it's offering no "specialty". Ultimately, a LA user can be damaged heavily by both physical and magic damage, leaving them wide open to a range of attackers.

As Astypoo said, LA is a huge waste of stat points and were requirements for damage equal, nobody would use it. The 20 stat points you sacrifice per gained crit point would have given you 200+ health in vit or more damage in magic or strength. To say a 1% crit justifies a loss of 200+ health as well as pdef mdef regen is a tough argument unless you are gaining damage from the dexterity point as well. Sins and Archers gain damage from dexterity, casters do not.

The majority of the mobs and bosses in this game are physical, or have a physical option. A well refined LA user can tank bosses because physical damage reduction is greatly enhanced by buffs. Evasion from dexterity also comes into play, as lower level bosses have a greater chance to miss the tank. Ask a LA user to tank a caster boss and they'll have second thoughts (unless they can kill it before they die, ihu demon spark). LA does not afford nearly enough mdef to justify it as a "equalizer" for a class that would ordinarily use HA, or vice versa.

Comparing Archers/Sins and Venos is also a difficult undertaking as Venos and Archers/Sins gain different amounts of pdef/mdef/hp/mp/evasion/attack per stat point. An Archer and a Sin will be identical in the same gear, but they have different self buffs and different attack styles. Venos without pets in LA are ultimately less protected than an Archer/Sin and would find it more difficult to tank because in order to range, they must remain in human form (no pdef bonus). They have no natural evasion buff or crit buff, and in fox form they must melee to kill what is attacking them.

In other words, while it may be fine for leveling, ultimately sacrificing stat points to wear LA on a class that doesn't need it is not worth it. And for archers, if you're doing the most damage you can (ie. pure), you're not going to have another option.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Kerona - Sanctuary wrote: »

Endgame, a HA user gets more heavily damaged by mages and absorbs phys hits like a wall. An AA user gets more heavily damaged by physical damage and can take arcane hits well for the most part. An LA user gets heavily damaged by both, more or less equally depending on their refines and ornaments. Mediocre protection in both directions may sound nice, but in effect it's offering no "specialty". Ultimately, a LA user can be damaged heavily by both physical and magic damage, leaving them wide open to a range of attackers.

As Astypoo said, LA is a huge waste of stat points and were requirements for damage equal, nobody would use it. The 20 stat points you sacrifice per gained crit point would have given you 200+ health in vit or more damage in magic or strength. To say a 1% crit justifies a loss of 200+ health as well as pdef mdef regen is a tough argument unless you are gaining damage from the dexterity point as well. Sins and Archers gain damage from dexterity, casters do not.

The majority of the mobs and bosses in this game are physical, or have a physical option. A well refined LA user can tank bosses because physical damage reduction is greatly enhanced by buffs. Evasion from dexterity also comes into play, as lower level bosses have a greater chance to miss the tank. Ask a LA user to tank a caster boss and they'll have second thoughts (unless they can kill it before they die, ihu demon spark). LA does not afford nearly enough mdef to justify it as a "equalizer" for a class that would ordinarily use HA, or vice versa.

Comparing Archers/Sins and Venos is also a difficult undertaking as Venos and Archers/Sins gain different amounts of pdef/mdef/hp/mp/evasion/attack per stat point. An Archer and a Sin will be identical in the same gear, but they have different self buffs and different attack styles. Venos without pets in LA are ultimately less protected than an Archer/Sin and would find it more difficult to tank because in order to range, they must remain in human form (no pdef bonus). They have no natural evasion buff or crit buff, and in fox form they must melee to kill what is attacking them.

In other words, while it may be fine for leveling, ultimately sacrificing stat points to wear LA on a class that doesn't need it is not worth it. And for archers, if you're doing the most damage you can (ie. pure), you're not going to have another option.

b:chuckle My PDef on my LA Veno is actually around that of my BM in Fox Form, so, yes, there is def buffs for Veno.

Crit rate for ranged on veno is about equivalent to a pure dex build Archer about 10-20 levels lower...

In LA, the magic points needed for weapon gives enough boost to MDef that I can tank things in LA that do magic damage right now. XD

And during 'oh ****' moments, Veno can use bramble hood, for 70% Phys Damage reduction and 200% damage reflect. Wyvern reflects himself to death before the skill runs out.

As for Archer, I can see how it wouldn't be the best for tanking a boss, but why would you want to tank TT3-3, Delta, Nirvana, or anything like that on an Archer? It's a DD class, and IMO, you should be able to kill any mobs you aggro before they do enough damage to kill you... Regardless of magic or physical damage, which is the point of LA.

I guess I'll have a better idea of my Archer and diff opinion when I get mine to endgame. I gotta get my nix to my Main's level first.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

HA build also means you can use -chan necklaces

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

HA build also means you can use -chan necklaces

Hmm, good point. Spend more moneys...

Kerona - Sanctuary

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:chuckle My PDef on my LA Veno is actually around that of my BM in Fox Form, so, yes, there is def buffs for Veno.

Crit rate for ranged on veno is about equivalent to a pure dex build Archer about 10-20 levels lower...

In LA, the magic points needed for weapon gives enough boost to MDef that I can tank things in LA that do magic damage right now. XD

And during 'oh ****' moments, Veno can use bramble hood, for 70% Phys Damage reduction and 200% damage reflect. Wyvern reflects himself to death before the skill runs out.

As for Archer, I can see how it wouldn't be the best for tanking a boss, but why would you want to tank TT3-3, Delta, Nirvana, or anything like that on an Archer? It's a DD class, and IMO, you should be able to kill any mobs you aggro before they do enough damage to kill you... Regardless of magic or physical damage, which is the point of LA.

I guess I'll have a better idea of my Archer and diff opinion when I get mine to endgame. I gotta get my nix to my Main's level first.

I'll just repeat what I actually said to reply to like, most of this:

Venos without pets in LA are ultimately less protected than an Archer/Sin and would find it more difficult to tank because in order to range, they must remain in human form (no pdef bonus). They have no natural evasion buff or crit buff, and in fox form they must melee to kill what is attacking them.

Archers tank Delta and Nirvana all the time. An Archer's Barrage usually pulls and maintains aggro until the mobs reach melee range (half damage) where aggro is easier to grab back. Not so much 3-3, it's a bit beyond their reach without ridiculous Asterelle level refines.

My archer's crit rate is 25%ish. My pure AA psy's crit rate is 10%. I added no dex to attain that, just gear. b:bye

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Well, the point of the LA Veno is to go Fox Form and melee...

Though my HA Fox Build is looking more appealing right now. b:surrender

I saw an endgame Archer today running around in HA. Looked kinda... Weird. Was all bound, I'm guessing hand-me-downs from a BM or Barb that they didn't want to vendor... Maybe I'll do that for giggles some day (some resets and my stash will make it easily possible) XD

I'm curious what my MDefs would look like on my veno with HA... Hmm, where's that gear calculator? I should run some numbers...

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Kerona - Sanctuary wrote: »

Venos without pets in LA are ultimately less protected than an Archer/Sin and would find it more difficult to tank because in order to range, they must remain in human form (no pdef bonus). They have no natural evasion buff or crit buff, and in fox form they must melee to kill what is attacking them.

This is not strictly true, since they can debuff their opponents accuracy and channeling rate, and because they have a self healing attack. Leach will not replace bloodpaint on a 5aps character, but its better than most archer heals. And, of course, neither archers nor assassins have the +200% bonus to pdef that foxes get.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is not strictly true, since they can debuff their opponents accuracy and channeling rate, and because they have a self healing attack. Leach will not replace bloodpaint on a 5aps character, but its better than most archer heals. And, of course, neither archers nor assassins have the +200% bonus to pdef that foxes get.

This is why I'm going Sage, hehe. 100% chance to leech with Sage Leech. ;D Gotta wait for 92 for that skill though. >_<

TigerLily - Lost City

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hmm... 4k MDef? I've got more than that when I go full LA... I've got Elemental ornaments on my Veno, and Fox Form gives a big PDef boost for Venos (which is why I like LA so much on her XD) For my Archer, I use both types of ornaments, and switch 'em around if I know I'm doing something particular. So, for magic damage mobs, I use Elemental ornaments, for ranged physical, I use pdef ornaments.
.

But you naturally have more mag def as LA veno than archer/sin. You have around 300 points in magic stated that boosts elemental defenses. You're using 2 rings that refines for mag def to, thats pretty much like getting 1 extra mag def belt/neck. I also believe you might have a few points into vitality like most LA venos - that adds more defenses.

While your average 9X archer maybe has 3.5k mag def unbuffed a 9X veno with same gear would have around 500-1k more, depending on build and refines on rings of course.

I dont know what level your archer is but if its low 9X i doubt he/she has over 4k mag def unbuffed unless you're using magic defense Cube Neck or Warsong belt that's highly refined and Coa rings - or if you're vitality build.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

But you naturally have more mag def as LA veno than archer/sin. You have around 300 points in magic stated that boosts elemental defenses. You're using 2 rings that refines for mag def to, thats pretty much like getting 1 extra mag def belt/neck. I also believe you might have a few points into vitality like most LA venos - that adds more defenses.

While your average 9X archer maybe has 3.5k mag def unbuffed a 9X veno with same gear would have around 500-1k more, depending on build and refines on rings of course.

I dont know what level your archer is but if its low 9X i doubt he/she has over 4k mag def unbuffed unless you're using magic defense Cube Neck or Warsong belt that's highly refined and Coa rings - or if you're vitality build.

Actually, rings don't help much MDef. I use a Might Ring and my rank ring when in LA on my Veno. XD I also run PDef ornaments all around in LA. I want to maximize PDef in Fox Form, the idea is reducing physical damage, and the 120% PDef boost from Fox Form really does help a lot.

And you just gave me an idea I will try on my Archer when the servers are back up. Since almost 40% of my Archer's damage on auto-attack is from Blazing arrow... I'm gonna swap some Magic Rings onto her and see if that boost MDef, and helps my damage. No harm done as I have... um... A lot of extra gear. b:chuckle

Sint - Harshlands

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

As for HA though... I don't like leaving myself THAT open to getting nuked by Wizzies/Psy/Venos/Clerics. And I suspect one problem I'm having is comparing LA on a Veno at 70 to LA on an Archer at 70 will give radically different MDef values, even the same armor swapped between the two, due to differences in magic points... :P Oh well... It's not easy, and I think that's how they want it to be. XD

Hotkey gear switch. The End. At endgame your def % increases less than it does at lower lvls. At this point, a ha/aa hybrid is probably your best choice. Sure, pure mag would do more dmg, but with the HA you can turtle better. If you look only at the numbers, HA is the best armor. The mag def is lower, but almost as high as LA, and the pdef is high. The problem with LA is not so much the base pdef (about 7/10 of equivalent HA) but the fact you dont have 300 str to go with it. Just being able to wear lvl 90 HA means you have about 225 str. No archer has any reason to get there.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Crit rate for ranged on veno is about equivalent to a pure dex build Archer about 10-20 levels lower...

And during 'oh ****' moments, Veno can use bramble hood, for 70% Phys Damage reduction and 200% damage reflect. Wyvern reflects himself to death before the skill runs out.

The first line. Cringe. My crit at lvl 90 was 26%, i believe. I doubt a lvl 100 veno would have 26% crit. Or 20, for that matter.

I'd be very much surprised if that were true. Why dont we just take venos to bh51 to let wyvern kill itself, then? Even if the dmg were enough o kill wyvern, you'd still have to take, what, 15% of wyv's hp in dmg? If i'm not mistaken, what's about 45k hp. In 15 seconds.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is not strictly true, since they can debuff their opponents accuracy and channeling rate, and because they have a self healing attack. Leach will not replace bloodpaint on a 5aps character, but its better than most archer heals. And, of course, neither archers nor assassins have the +200% bonus to pdef that foxes get.

Better than most archer heals?Would you believe i've managed to hit lvl 96 without discovering a single archer healing skill?

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

Hotkey gear switch. The End.

Veno Fox Form. ...to be continued...

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

Better than most archer heals?Would you believe i've managed to hit lvl 96 without discovering a single archer healing skill?

Then I suspect you might want to check out triple spark some time. Though, on most archers, it does not heal very much.

Also, some weapons can heal you.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

The first line. Cringe. My crit at lvl 90 was 26%, i believe. I doubt a lvl 100 veno would have 26% crit. Or 20, for that matter.

I'd be very much surprised if that were true. Why dont we just take venos to bh51 to let wyvern kill itself, then? Even if the dmg were enough o kill wyvern, you'd still have to take, what, 15% of wyv's hp in dmg? If i'm not mistaken, what's about 45k hp. In 15 seconds.

My Crit Rate as reported on my stats page is 7%. In reality, I crit between 30 and 70% of the time. My longest crit chain was 20 crits in a row. b:chuckle

Crit works differently for Mage than it does for ranged phsyical or melee. I don't get many crits when I melee, that's for sure. This was the main reason i went LA over HA... And I noticed this early on when I made an LA build at level 40 on an alt Veno.

Pure Mage, with 1%, I'd crit once every 30-50 mobs, if that, or maybe twice on a long long boss. Basically a 0.1% crit rate. That was with 5 dex.

Adroit - Lost City

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

My Crit Rate as reported on my stats page is 7%. In reality, I crit between 30 and 70% of the time. My longest crit chain was 20 crits in a row. b:chuckle

Crit works differently for Mage than it does for ranged phsyical or melee. I don't get many crits when I melee, that's for sure. This was the main reason i went LA over HA... And I noticed this early on when I made an LA build at level 40 on an alt Veno.

Pure Mage, with 1%, I'd crit once every 30-50 mobs, if that, or maybe twice on a long long boss. Basically a 0.1% crit rate. That was with 5 dex.

Lol? This is a joke right?