When will BM be fun for me?

2

Comments

  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Julian - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    ...you mad or something?

    I don't think you like the fact that someone isn't playing by your rules.

    Go cry me a river.

    b:chuckle you rebel you

    no really if you ok with being picked last for everything ever play the sword bm
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Julian - Dreamweaver
    Julian - Dreamweaver Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    I made it quite clear that I am. Besides, I said I have 33 characters. Being "picked last" with a couple of them isn't gonna hurt my PWI experience.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver
    OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Arlenia - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    If you never want to do frost, never want to do nirvana, TW or serious PVP then sure, you can play how you want. Just do us a favor and tell your party about your build before you enter the instance so they can boot you if they don't like it. I hate porting in only to realize that the BM isn't going to be able to do his job. It's like a cleric joining a squad and then mentioning once everyone teleported that he's a metal mage and has no heals.

    1. I do frost runs, how bout them apples?
    2. TW is dead.
    3. PVP? lol now we are talkin pvp? i never mentioned pvp, it's amazing what you people conjure up to debate about... seriously, find a new hobby.

    Arlenia - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Fact is, whether you want to or not, you are often inconveniencing your squad by not using HF and making things go a lot slower than they have to. And by not being able to AOE the way you could with axes. There's a reason why 99.9% of all BMs own a set of axes. In some instances, like RB for example, it's just not possible to complete it without that. In other cases things will just be slowed down.

    I appreciate that you're honest about your unconventional build though. That way people can at least adapt to the fact that you won't be playing the usual BM role in the squad and maybe invite another BM and have you just DD. Problem is that not everyone is so thoughtful, and I've often enough struggled through an instance with a squad member that was more a hindrance than a help (most noiceable with important party members like barbs and clerics. DDs tend to be able to slide by)

    Bold #1
    Inconvenience my squad? Awww poor bebeb:cry

    Bold #2
    LOL, just say it already, its a RULE that all BMs should use HF... FFS you people act as if youre the gods of this game. You people seriously dont have any play style. It's always follow the crowd that's doing the same thing. You PEOPLE are the true lackluster. If you cannot appreciate ones own build, then you absolutely have no imagination.

    Bold #3
    Ding Ding Ding, omg u actually said something i wanted to hear... glad to see that marble of yours is working.
    Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »
    I don't mean to be rude, but by using purely fist or purely sword, or purely anything for that matter, isn't being unique. I have the same set of sword skills as you that I use when I need to. I have the same set of fist skills as you that I use when I need to.

    You might differentiate yourself in build, but skills wise, I have the same skills as you do. I can do the same as you, and more.

    You're not being rude, you just have the same attitude as everyone else, nuff saidb:bye

    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    gratz your bm is totaly useless

    archers/sins out DD you, barbs can hold aggro better, wizzies/psys aoe better than you other bm's can do more DPS have more rage skills can amp debuff and stun tank and aoe better than your build

    your a waste of a squad spot...

    if your ok with that by all means play away but do not even pretend your a usefull BM

    want to use blades and get a squad? roll a damn seeker

    Her BM isnt totally useless, it's funny cause she is playing it, what's even funnier is that your not. Waste of squad spot, LOLz.

    You're not as useful as you think, look at this comment you made... "roll a damn seeker" LOLz

    YOU are the perfect waste of pixels.b:bye


    @OP, sry for hijacking your thread... i did warn that it becomes a flame fest, sry, pissing match...b:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Julian - Dreamweaver
    Julian - Dreamweaver Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Try not to let them get to you, Odessa.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Mandagor - Harshlands
    Mandagor - Harshlands Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Just my two cents.

    I agree with most of the people here in the thread. Though I agree most with Julian and Odessa.

    BM is the most versatile class to play, in loads of ways. There is no guide as to how BM should be played. A sword BM with the genie skill extreme poison can be just as useful as an axe BM without. Fact remains, that everyone is entitled to play the game as they wish.

    I saw someone saying a sword BM is totally useless. Well, with the upcoming seeker they may become a bit that way. But lets face it, sword BM's can still let loose the most devastating aoe skill that a BM will ever have. One of the lvl 100 skills is restricted to swords only. The knockback skill is very useful to direct runners to where we want them to run (that is, not towards other mobs. Often involves using cloud sprint or WotB to get behind them and push them back, if possible). The other two skills are, at the least, not all that useful. But still are, to some point. A sword BM can differentiate himself from another sword BM by the skills that are used. Saying you both have the skillset doesnt mean ****, one sword BM might even decide not to use skills at all, and rely on the various weapon effects (TT90 gold blade, berserk anyone? Make it +5 and you're not making any friends among clerics. Trust me, I know. I had it on MY, and clerics hated me when I brought it out). The other two skills, mage bane and spirit chaser, are useless to the opinion of most BM's. But are they really?

    At max lvl mage bane would double the casting time for 8 seconds. Enough time to bury someone. Admitted, it costs a spark, and axe BM's will tell me now I'd better preserve that spark for drake bash. But to the pure sword BM's I'd say, use it. Definitely. Spirit chaser lets you attack from a distance, then polearm BM's would say use a pole and then farstrike, its more efficient. But again, to the sword BM's, I'd say use it.

    Atmos sword strike and myriad sword stance speak for themselves. I explained the use of the first, the latter will save a furry butt once or twice in a BH, especially the non charmed ones. And there are a great deal of them. As to them...tree of protection has a cooldown, a good 60 seconds. A charm only has 10 seconds cooldown. Even the most lousiest charm.

    Make no mistake, I am an allround BM. I got TT80 axes and soon will have GX at 90. But next to that I will have TT90 gold blades, TT80 gold polearm and getting the dex needed for a nice fist. All in all, a BM is much more than only doing heavens flame and 5 APS. I rejoice the fact that there are people who resist to that.

    I saw someone saying sticking to one weapon is limiting the true potential of a BM, and then said he was axe/fist. Sorry, but why say sticking to one weapon is limiting, why you do it yourself by sticking to axes and fists? The sole purpose of such a build is cast HF and then pound with fists. But thats too much focused on one target, while a BM has so much skills to control a crowd. AOE stun, single stun, AOE speed reduction, AOE phys+mag def reduction, AOE phys+mag attack reduction, doubling casting time, attacking from a distance, DOT. The list is long and distinguished. It's all about timing and choice as to what to do. The arrival of genies has only strengthened the possibility to stick to one weapon alone.

    Only using heavens flame and then pound on a single target, that limits the true potential of a BM. Not sticking to one weapon. Swords are effective when used wisely. So Odessa and Julian, props to you both. Go out there and show what swords can do. But, to some extent, might advise to get at least extreme poison on your genie. That way you can stick to one weapon and still give the squad what they want.

    (BTW dont stare blind on my level here. I come from PW MY and have a lvl 100 BM there, also allround. I've been playing a BM for a little over 2 years.)
  • Julian - Dreamweaver
    Julian - Dreamweaver Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    ^ *cough* Odessa is pure fist.

    You post was inspiring though. And I never even thought of Extreme Poison before now. I'll give it a try. :D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Mandagor - Harshlands
    Mandagor - Harshlands Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Julian - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    ^ *cough* Odessa is pure fist.

    You post was inspiring though. And I never even thought of Extreme Poison before now. I'll give it a try. :D

    oh sowwy b:surrender

    But even still. I've known a LA pure fist BM on MY. Nobody, really nobody, could beat him in PvP. It's an awesome built that brings out the best of fists. I cant even begin to think why people would have an objection against such a built. The loss of phys def can be compensated with sharding garnets. It actually has all the benefits of an archer, except the cut in half damage up close. Sorry Odessa.
  • Julian - Dreamweaver
    Julian - Dreamweaver Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Interesting... 1.5str/1.5vit/2dex per level? Full dex?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Mandagor - Harshlands
    Mandagor - Harshlands Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Julian - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Interesting... 1.5str/1.5vit/2dex per level? Full dex?

    That I think is best answered by Odessa herself. If I had to venture a guess as to what she would put per two levels it would be 3 str 4 dex, and having 3 free points to play around with which could go all in vit, or 2 dex 1 vit or smth else. As said, free to play around with.
  • Laranda - Heavens Tear
    Laranda - Heavens Tear Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Funny, used to be a time where people would scoff at LA, but didn't care as much about weapon. Now it's reversed.
    Mandagor - Harshlands wrote: »
    Definitely. Spirit chaser lets you attack from a distance, then polearm BM's would say use a pole and then farstrike, its more efficient. But again, to the sword BM's, I'd say use it.

    Spirit chaser is probably there to combo off of Atmos. Against melee monsters, Spirit to draw them, then Drake's Ray, Atmos to knock them back and repeat. Throw in a Ocean's Edge or Aeolian Blade for extra spice. o.o

    Spirit is speed, Farstrike is power. That's how I see it.
    Mandagor - Harshlands wrote: »
    That I think is best answered by Odessa herself. If I had to venture a guess as to what she would put per two levels it would be 3 str 4 dex, and having 3 free points to play around with which could go all in vit, or 2 dex 1 vit or smth else. As said, free to play around with.

    There's enough room to combine sword and fist. Both have stat requirements well below LA. Heck, one can probably find +stat gear and get close to fist's requirements and still use swords with them. o.O

    *goes off to ponder a new build*
  • OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver
    OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Mandagor - Harshlands wrote: »
    That I think is best answered by Odessa herself. If I had to venture a guess as to what she would put per two levels it would be 3 str 4 dex, and having 3 free points to play around with which could go all in vit, or 2 dex 1 vit or smth else. As said, free to play around with.

    Youre somewhat correct, but every lvl i add 1 str, 4 dex. But this isnt always true. Currently w/o gear this is my stats:

    VIT - 5
    MAG - 5
    STR - 155
    DEX - 280

    HP 2625
    MP 1575

    This is my stats fully geared.

    VIT - 111
    MAG - 18
    STR - 188
    DEX - 302

    HP 7227 (this HP is UNBUFFED)
    MP 1692

    When started making this, it was 1 str, 4 dex per lvl. As i grew i knew id have to gain some str to make up for some damage and the use of heavier gloves.

    Remember, this is mainly built around an Archer and that meant more dex than str. Yes i am aware that my dex does not provide the power to kill. But my crt rate speaks for itself. I do use a genie, but atm im only using an STR based genie. The primary skill on that genie is Tangling Mire. She is lvl 85 with 100 str. With Tangling Mire at lvl10, the targets defense is lowered by 35% + for every 5 genie str added, the defense is lowered by an additional 1% (100/5=20) That 20% is added to the 35% = 55% lowered defense. IMO, this is the perfect skill for my type.

    Since im only lvl 86, i do not have my demon spark. So how does one keep agro. I'll explain. Normally id have to build up chi first. Either i spam a few skills or kill some mobs along the way. Once i have my chi, there isnt a chance i wont be w/o 2 sparks.

    This is a good example when im tanking BH69 (even pole). Sometimes it hard enough to find a barb to do bh69, so i end up being the tanker. Once we come to the bosses, this is how i open up as the boss approaches:

    1. Spark
    2. Tangling Mire
    3. Cyclone Heel
    4. Fist em to death

    The steps here i do dont always happen again, i have to let Tangling Mire regen/cooldown. But i can do this every other turn and not lose agro. Im always sparking and performing CH.

    I do use Extreme Poison too, but not very often as i am accustomed with TM.

    Besides, i have Occult Ice for them random people who want to duel me >.>
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Text

    Could you show us your build in pwcalc? I'm interested in seeing how you get 7.2k unbuffed at 86. http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/ I'm not saying it's impossible, just wondering which gears you got.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Julian - Dreamweaver
    Julian - Dreamweaver Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Interesting, Odessa.

    I use the Atmos/Spirit combo as Laranda mentioned, along with Aeolian Blade. For bosses, I'm quite fond of Draw Blood->Spark->Wind Shield for DPS. Since I have minimal dex and 5 vit, my damage is pretty decent... but I'm unbearably squishy :( Though I'm not TT gear level yet, so I haven't bothered sharding my gear with HP/defense yet.

    Oh and I have a newb fist BM(level 30) with 3str/3vit/4dex every 2 levels. I use light armor on her, but I got the rank1 gear too. Not sure how it'll turn out.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver
    OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Could you show us your build in pwcalc? I'm interested in seeing how you get 7.2k unbuffed at 86. http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/ I'm not saying it's impossible, just wondering which gears you got.

    Sure thing, mind you the pwicalc uses perfect stats on the gear, but this is as close as it can get. everything currently on is the exact items used.

    Unbuffed
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=825d3826c35b1069

    Buffed (With all lvl10 skills, including Barb, Cleric)
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=5295b815c03308d1
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Sure thing, mind you the pwicalc uses perfect stats on the gear, but this is as close as it can get. everything currently on is the exact items used.

    Unbuffed
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=825d3826c35b1069

    Buffed (With all lvl10 skills, including Barb, Cleric)
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=5295b815c03308d1

    Thank you. You can change the stats by clicking the item and then clicking "Change". I got the idea though.

    Your HP unbuffed is the same as mine at 97 but then again, one vit stone is worth more than my equips on this char. My old BM had around 8k HP unbuffed (half HA half LA) and 3.33 aps sparked. That was not in PWI but on a legit server nonetheless. Your p.def fully buffed is the same as mine self buffed so it's still nice, especially for a LA build at 86.

    All the full LA endgame BMs I met before PWI were a bit easier to kill than HAs because my acc was good (I had 200 dex and dual misties) and all of them were full dex so low HP and/or p. def and damage. There was one pro LA fist BM in MY that I can think of (although I didn't play there, my friend did) but then again, he had better gears than most other players.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Sure thing, mind you the pwicalc uses perfect stats on the gear, but this is as close as it can get. everything currently on is the exact items used.

    Unbuffed
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=825d3826c35b1069

    Buffed (With all lvl10 skills, including Barb, Cleric)
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=5295b815c03308d1

    *puts the kid gloves on, because I'm not here to insult anyone*. That's a very nice gear setup you have, Love: Up and Down tome, Bracers of Blood Moon, Wings of Cloud Charger, +5 refines on TT gold, Warsong Belt and Helm, Vit stones and perfect citrines... Almost anyone would be successful with that gear setup but we're focusing on builds, right?

    Okay, as for being different and unique. I'm all for it. I also like to be the best so I look around, look what others have done, what are my multitude of options, and start making my decision and improvements from there. The reason so many people are "cookie cutter" is because thats the build that has been tried, improved, tried again, polished, and perfected before being copied by everyone else. But it also sounds like you have no interest in trying to be the best, just in being unique, right?

    Not to offend you, but it sounds like you are intentionally being difficult, just to be different. You can carry almost lvl 60 axes, lvl 70 pole, and lvl 80 swords with that build but you chose not to because using additional tools and skills would make you not special.

    So, my hands has 5 fingers just like everyone elses but to be special I cut off 4. They're useful, and their usefulness is proven, but I think 1 finger would be better because its more unique that way.



    Here is one of my personal complaints. Casters complain that everyone wants BMs/Sins for Nirvana, FCC, and TT runs and they never can find a squad, but as soon as they make a squad for one the WC for x.xx aps bm/sin. They ask for aps to be nerfed, but at the same time reap the benefits of 15 Nirvana's.

    So my question is, do you squad when you play your build? I saw Julian pointed out she disclaims her build first and lets the squad decide. That's almost fair, but not quite since I would not play boot someone for being different. I would boot someone for not being able to do their job in the squad. These "special builds" walk dangerously close to that. Imagine a squad where everyone is unique but no one is dependable. You don't count as a BM if I can't depend on you to use 3/4 of a BMs skills, and therefore I'll find a BM to fill the BM spot.

    Plus, how unique are your characters when I can equip my sword and be a "sword only BM" in an instant.

    I guess my point is "There is nothing unique or special your build adds, only removes options of how to play your character, and when you do that your toon becomes very stale and one dimensional."



    ... and now because I feel like ripping into people for doing stupid things to spite others, Odessa, you have about 700 million in gear that make your character about as useful as a poorly geared "cookie cutter." You went LA just to be different and maybe for more mdef, and then immediately added pdef ornaments and cape to cover up how bad of a decision that is. It took you having +5 refines, vit rings, and million and millions invested in shards to cover up poor statting and LA gears low return on refines. Why you have 130 more dex than you need is beyond me, it gives 6% crit rate but other than that you may as well have left it unstatted. While you scough at people suggesting pvp scenarios please explain why you would have 2 x Misties on a build with enough dex to satisfy an archer. You bought yourself great fists, but you barely have the strength to use them (psst, here's a hint. Our fist damage is based on strength *shocked*). Shows a great understanding of the game when you half your damage output so that you can crit 6% more often.

    Being different is great, but being stupid because its different is just stupid. If you want to impress someone by being different, do something different that actually works.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Just to add for the OP, BM becomes fun when you can begin flaming other BMs over their build choices and gear setup. b:chuckle

    Stupid BM is stupid.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver
    OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    *puts the kid gloves on, because I'm not here to insult anyone*. That's a very nice gear setup you have, Love: Up and Down tome, Bracers of Blood Moon, Wings of Cloud Charger, +5 refines on TT gold, Warsong Belt and Helm, Vit stones and perfect citrines... Almost anyone would be successful with that gear setup but we're focusing on builds, right?

    Okay, as for being different and unique. I'm all for it. I also like to be the best so I look around, look what others have done, what are my multitude of options, and start making my decision and improvements from there. The reason so many people are "cookie cutter" is because thats the build that has been tried, improved, tried again, polished, and perfected before being copied by everyone else. But it also sounds like you have no interest in trying to be the best, just in being unique, right?

    I dont need to be the best. Not for him, her, you, not anyone in the game. I am my own and i am at my best.
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Not to offend you, but it sounds like you are intentionally being difficult, just to be different. You can carry almost lvl 60 axes, lvl 70 pole, and lvl 80 swords with that build but you chose not to because using additional tools and skills would make you not special.

    Intentionally being difficult... not really but i can add being challenging. I already knew what awaited for me as i was leveling. It wasnt easy but learned to adopt using no skills, yes absolutely no skills. Ima resourceful person.
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So my question is, do you squad when you play your build? I saw Julian pointed out she disclaims her build first and lets the squad decide. That's almost fair, but not quite since I would not play boot someone for being different. I would boot someone for not being able to do their job in the squad. These "special builds" walk dangerously close to that. Imagine a squad where everyone is unique but no one is dependable. You don't count as a BM if I can't depend on you to use 3/4 of a BMs skills, and therefore I'll find a BM to fill the BM spot.

    When i want to FC, i screen WC first... i look for "DDs" This tells me they have a BM already. And yes i do let them know im pure aps with no HF. I usually get NP. Doing BHs i get no complaints, job gets done and we go home happy.
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Plus, how unique are your characters when I can equip my sword and be a "sword only BM" in an instant.

    I guess my point is "There is nothing unique or special your build adds, only removes options of how to play your character, and when you do that your toon becomes very stale and one dimensional."

    To each their own. Really.


    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ... and now because I feel like ripping into people for doing stupid things to spite others, Odessa, you have about 700 million in gear that make your character about as useful as a poorly geared "cookie cutter." You went LA just to be different and maybe for more mdef, and then immediately added pdef ornaments and cape to cover up how bad of a decision that is. It took you having +5 refines, vit rings, and million and millions invested in shards to cover up poor statting and LA gears low return on refines. Why you have 130 more dex than you need is beyond me, it gives 6% crit rate but other than that you may as well have left it unstatted. While you scough at people suggesting pvp scenarios please explain why you would have 2 x Misties on a build with enough dex to satisfy an archer. You bought yourself great fists, but you barely have the strength to use them (psst, here's a hint. Our fist damage is based on strength *shocked*). Shows a great understanding of the game when you half your damage output so that you can crit 6% more often.

    First bold/underlined sentence: False
    Second bold/underlined sentence: False
    Third bold/underlined sentence: O M F G, youre joking right? Are you serious? Maaaaaan i wish i KNEW that before i made this build...
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Being different is great, but being stupid because its different is just stupid. If you want to impress someone by being different, do something different that actually works.

    So now im stupid. *Shakes Sakubatou's hand* Thanks. You have offically earned ZERO respect points.

    If i want to impress someone? Now why would i wanna impress someone? For what? Once again i dont have to prove myself to anyone. And do something different that actually works? What are you saying? My toon works just fine. I can jump, run, walk, fight, buff, pot... Oh do you mean all that nonsense you posted (since im stupid) means my toon is broken?

    /Communication cause i have ZERO respect you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    b:chuckle but can you solo high level ttb:chuckle
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver
    OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    b:chuckle but can you solo high level ttb:chuckle

    Solo high lvl tt? w/o a cleric right? cause that's what solo means. IF you can solo high tt w/o a cleric, props to you. Besides, im only lvl86 ffs...

    Next please...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Laranda - Heavens Tear
    Laranda - Heavens Tear Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Plus, how unique are your characters when I can equip my sword and be a "sword only BM" in an instant.

    No, you would not be a real "sword only BM." You could try to claim it, but it wouldn't be true. Julian's build, a true sword only build, would allow her to break 400 strength with gear. I'm doubtful a 3/2 build can do that. (It works out to around +45 to strength over a 3/2 build at lv100. That's without gear.)
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The reason so many people are "cookie cutter" is because thats the build that has been tried, improved, tried again, polished, and perfected before being copied by everyone else. But it also sounds like you have no interest in trying to be the best, just in being unique, right?

    Were you around during the old days of BMs? I mean the first few months after the game was released. Builds were confusing. One had to worry about placing stats every 2 levels. Not one. There were also 4+ builds out there.

    There's a convenience factor with the 3/2 build. It's a good build, but it isn't the pinnacle in a given direction beyond enabling axes and fists together.
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ... and now because I feel like ripping into people for doing stupid things to spite others

    Of course, she did state she had an archer and knew the build. Pretty good chance some if not most of that gear was stuff she had as an archer.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but strength does not apply to the bonus damage from sparks, right? In a 5aps situation, 20% crit can means an average of a crit a second or so. I don't know if anyone has done a dps calculation for something like that. It'd be interesting to see.

    For the record, I don't recommend a build like Odessa's for the average person. The average person might well not be interested in such a setup. It doesn't mean that build wouldn't perform well in the right hands.
  • Julian - Dreamweaver
    Julian - Dreamweaver Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Wow, such drama. Funny how people can get so butthurt over another player's build.

    Sakubatou's argument isn't even worth quoting, he's just spouting nonsense just to stroke his ego. His QQs make him almost seem like he means well, but he's probably just mad that we're not conforming. The thing is, it's really not about that, whether he'd like to think so or not. Not that I need to explain myself, but I couldn't care less about conformity, or lack thereof. And to be honest, it's really sad that someone feels that it's necessary to try telling people that you gotta play a game a certain way. We're not in pro Basketball or playing in poker tournaments. There's nothing at stake here but our enjoyment. I think we should be able to play the game how we like to get as much enjoyment out of it. If that makes you mad, oh well.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Galliteya - Heavens Tear
    Galliteya - Heavens Tear Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    So much anger....over what a build someone enjoys. b:sad I'm sure those who are playing the game how they want are having a blast. I know I am. Though I am one who loves to group up and quest or run a dungeon. I'm not saying I don't like to solo because I do. But all these posts remind me of the drama that went on in my days of wow.

    I knew a warrior who wielded 2 axes but he wore leather armor. He kicked major butt. Heehee. He didn't pvp but he did raid quite and bit and suprised about 70% or the people he teamed with. Though I am a veno I have a bm who is currently my crafter ;). I send most of the materials to her so I can continue questing.

    As for the op a class is only as fun as you make it out to be. If your bored playing this class. Go play another. Nothing anyone can tell you will change your decision sweety. It's all up to you as you are the one playing your toon. Not the other posters.

    To the 2 who are LA Bm's. Good for you. Being different is what makes an mmo so fun. But others will have a different opinion. I'm sure you've heard it in game as well. But don't be afraid to try a different approach to your class. I'm trying a LA wizard just because. Heehee. Maybe the op should try LA and stick with one weapon. Maybe reading all the posts discribing how bm's should use multiple weapons to utilize there full potential as a bm is what is boring him.

    I say play how you want. If the squad boots you for not playing how the other 90% play well that's there loss not yours. I do take my mmo's serios to a point. I love to benefit my group to being the best I can be. But I'm deffinately not afraid to be different. :) So good luck you 2! b:cute
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    *amused*

    a few points

    fist builds can break 400 str

    45 str <<< 50% attack speed

    no really an all weapon bm can whip out a blade and do everything you can

    so in short...if its a lolbuild or your haveing fun go ahead...do not even pretend its a competitive endgame build for pve, pvp, or tw

    simple way to disprove me...name one thing you can do that a all weapon bm cannot do better, if you cannot go have fun just keep in mind that yes...you are useless
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Thanks Josh. I was going to stop posting here because there is very little point. I feel like the parent who is saying "finish highschool, use a condom, go to college, don't do drugs..." all good suggestions, but I get called a conformist for suggesting them. Just trying to help. And unlike reallife, this game is based on mathematic calculations. You add to strength, your damage increases. Ever stat points benefits can be mathematically calculated.

    I really don't care what you do with your build. Just telling you the facts of the game. Calling me a conformist because I understand what works and would suggest it is fine. The OP asked when will BM become fun. I suggested the fun a bm is in it variability of ways to play it and its multiple types of skills and weapons. Sticking to one weapon is boring, lame, and usually ineffective.

    The one excellent comment in this thread that showed some intelligence was Laranda's. I agreed with almost everything she said and especially liked the insight into using dexterity to increase spark dmg. As Josh pointed out, fist BMS endgame can have over 400 strength. I agree a perfect 3/2 ratio is not the pinnacle but its a great guideline. Endgame a 4:2 (ish) ratio would work better, minimizing dex to boost strenth. The reason some BMs stick with sword endgame is because they prefer not to part with their vitality, not because they want extra strength in their build. The 4:2 ratio of str to dexterity would still benefit them, and even if they stuck with sword only they'd have the option to wear fists. At endgame, overpumped dexterity does almost nothing to increase evasion or accuracy beyond what you get at around 200 dexterity, in both pve and pvp.

    As I said, Laranda, I liked that you thought outside the box that spark increases weapon damage by 500% and strength doesn't benefit it. Most BMs have about 225-250% their normal damage in triple spark. The first 100% of that is the normal equation of

    attack multiple = 1 + STR/150 + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs

    Then the remaining 125-150% is your weapons base dmg x 500%. The more refined your weapon the more difference there is between a triple spark and your normal dmg.
    A build like the 4:1 dex build Odessa sticks to would do about 60% the normal damage before spark, and the get 6% more out of her 125-150% spark dmg. So where most BMs do 225-250% dmg, she does about 196%-222.5% our dmg. Granted thats a 136-162.5% increase over her base it's still much less than a 3/2 build. But good thought.

    And no I wasn't around during the first few months of pwi. I started about 13 months ago. But I learned from the earlier pioneers of BMs. 3/2 is an evolution from what people have learned.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Laranda - Heavens Tear
    Laranda - Heavens Tear Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    45 str <<< 50% attack speed

    A sword build can enable fists if one chooses. It's only an offset of 40 dex or so for decides or striking dragon. Especially since we have gear that offers both str and dex bonuses. Venos have been pulling off stunts like that for over a year so this should not come as a big surprise.
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Just trying to help.

    Help? You're coming off as trying to force it down their throats. Calling someone stupid is a bad way to get them to listen. Same goes for calling a build useless when it's not. Useless is not the same as less effective even if we use the argument about a multipath build doing everything they can.

    You're trying to help someone who doesn't really need it. Big surprise it blows up in your face. Those that break the rules but hold to the spirit: they don't need the help you're offering. They know what they're doing and at what costs. Odessa has basically combined the Spear and Fist builds in her setup without wasting a single point of chi. How many BMs can claim to have done that?

    I can't claim that. I didn't even realize it was possible til she explained it.

    If you need me to explain, reread how her build is setup. If you really are knowledgeable, you should be able to see it.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    A sword build can enable fists if one chooses. It's only an offset of 40 dex or so for decides or striking dragon. Especially since we have gear that offers both str and dex bonuses. Venos have been pulling off stunts like that for over a year so this should not come as a big surprise.

    ofc you can use swords+fists and are no longer a "pure" sword bm and lose the 45 str you would have gained..makeing your last point totaly useless

    Help? You're coming off as trying to force it down their throats. Calling someone stupid is a bad way to get them to listen. Same goes for calling a build useless when it's not. Useless is not the same as less effective even if we use the argument about a multipath build doing everything they can.

    compared to the most common bm build its useless

    You're trying to help someone who doesn't really need it. Big surprise it blows up in your face. Those that break the rules but hold to the spirit: they don't need the help you're offering. They know what they're doing and at what costs. Odessa has basically combined the Spear and Fist builds in her setup without wasting a single point of chi. How many BMs can claim to have done that?

    i'm just openly mocking them for being tarded nobody posts "MY E-PEEN IS HUUUUUGE IN THIS LA" and actualyl wants constructive advice...and any bm on a 3-2 build can make that claim the only "wasted" points are those in mag

    I can't claim that. I didn't even realize it was possible til she explained it.

    If you need me to explain, reread how her build is setup. If you really are knowledgeable, you should be able to see it.

    your kinda special too aint ya?
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Laranda - Heavens Tear
    Laranda - Heavens Tear Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ofc you can use swords+fists and are no longer a "pure" sword bm and lose the 45 str you would have gained..makeing your last point totaly useless

    It's +45 Base strength, i.e. without gear. I don't see how that can be lost outside of a respec.

    Besides, who says the only ones that would try a build like Julian's would be sword only? I have a sword bm, and I'm definitely not sword only.
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    compared to the most common bm build its useless

    [....]

    and any bm on a 3-2 build can make that claim the only "wasted" points are those in mag

    I don't think you got what I meant. The latter is how she spends her time in a fight, not how she's build before it. The former... I'm not going to try to explain it to you.
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    your kinda special too aint ya?

    Special? Not really. I just have a different perspective.

    Edit:
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote:
    As I said, Laranda, I liked that you thought outside the box that spark increases weapon damage by 500% and strength doesn't benefit it.

    Forgot to add this to my last post, thanks for including the calcs. o.o

    Hmm, noticed a slight problem with it. Odessa's build likely is not 4:1 dex, she wouldn't have enough strength for her weapon, unassisted. Don't know if you counted for that or not. Shouldn't make a massive difference though.
  • Julian - Dreamweaver
    Julian - Dreamweaver Posts: 216 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    If you guys don't like multiquotes, prepare for a tl;dr here:
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    *amused*

    a few points

    fist builds can break 400 str

    45 str <<< 50% attack speed

    no really an all weapon bm can whip out a blade and do everything you can

    so in short...if its a lolbuild or your haveing fun go ahead...do not even pretend its a competitive endgame build for pve, pvp, or tw

    simple way to disprove me...name one thing you can do that a all weapon bm cannot do better, if you cannot go have fun just keep in mind that yes...you are useless
    We don't care what you think. But it's annoying that you people keep posting to tell us the same stuff, when it's obvious that it's not gonna matter no matter how many times you say it.

    Also...
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    simple way to disprove me...name one thing you can do that a all weapon bm cannot do better
    Best thing I can think of is... well, a one-weapon BM can max skills easier at lower levels(say around my level) than an all-weapon one. I've almost maxed all of my current skills, while if I were leveling an all-weapon BM, I'd have come about half way.

    Also, one-weapon builds are capable of having a different stat build than an all-weapon BM, which is almost entirely limited to 3str/2dex. Show me a 4.5 str all-wep BM, or a 1.5 vit BM. I'm not saying those are optimal builds, but being an all-wep BM does limit build options, skills excluded(eventually, when you max out every sage or demon version of every skill)

    Not that I care about doing anything better than anyone. I'm not trying to be competitive here.
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Thanks Josh. I was going to stop posting here because there is very little point. I feel like the parent who is saying "finish highschool, use a condom, go to college, don't do drugs..." all good suggestions, but I get called a conformist for suggesting them. Just trying to help. And unlike reallife, this game is based on mathematic calculations. You add to strength, your damage increases. Ever stat points benefits can be mathematically calculated.
    Helping with what? Helping us get in squads with picky jerks we'd rather not squad with in the first place? Help us better our PvP skills that we(or at least I) don't care for?
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I really don't care what you do with your build. Just telling you the facts of the game. Calling me a conformist because I understand what works and would suggest it is fine. The OP asked when will BM become fun. I suggested the fun a bm is in it variability of ways to play it and its multiple types of skills and weapons. Sticking to one weapon is boring, lame, and usually ineffective.
    And we know the game. We aren't fools. You're trying to explain this stuff to us like we're little inexperienced newbs that aren't aware that our little imaginative builds aren't good at what you're assuming we want out of the game.

    If you're trying to explain this to the OP, then I'll agree with you. But you're not. You're trying to explain it to us, and again, it is not necessary.
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The one excellent comment in this thread that showed some intelligence was Laranda's. I agreed with almost everything she said and especially liked the insight into using dexterity to increase spark dmg. As Josh pointed out, fist BMS endgame can have over 400 strength. I agree a perfect 3/2 ratio is not the pinnacle but its a great guideline. Endgame a 4:2 (ish) ratio would work better, minimizing dex to boost strenth. The reason some BMs stick with sword endgame is because they prefer not to part with their vitality, not because they want extra strength in their build. The 4:2 ratio of str to dexterity would still benefit them, and even if they stuck with sword only they'd have the option to wear fists. At endgame, overpumped dexterity does almost nothing to increase evasion or accuracy beyond what you get at around 200 dexterity, in both pve and pvp.
    So... my 3.5 str build bothers you that much?

    Too bad.
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And no I wasn't around during the first few months of pwi. I started about 13 months ago. But I learned from the earlier pioneers of BMs. 3/2 is an evolution from what people have learned.
    3/2 is an evolution of what is considered optimal. Nothing more.
    Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Help? You're coming off as trying to force it down their throats. Calling someone stupid is a bad way to get them to listen. Same goes for calling a build useless when it's not. Useless is not the same as less effective even if we use the argument about a multipath build doing everything they can.

    You're trying to help someone who doesn't really need it. Big surprise it blows up in your face. Those that break the rules but hold to the spirit: they don't need the help you're offering. They know what they're doing and at what costs. Odessa has basically combined the Spear and Fist builds in her setup without wasting a single point of chi. How many BMs can claim to have done that?
    This x1,000
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Galox - Heavens Tear
    Galox - Heavens Tear Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    I hope you've got HF by now.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] b:victory

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