A Discussion on Stacking (with BH59 in particular)

Miugre - Heavens Tear

You know, I'm the kind of person who tries to the best of my ability to be courteous, respectful, and, well, generally not a selfish or mean player. And that's why it hurts when someone else comes in and tries to enforce their own particular brand of doing things (which coincidentally revolves around them), and I get yelled at for pointing out that some people are going to get screwd over by it. I know we all have our own personal horror stories of awful BH squads, but humor me - this one kinda has a point.



So I'm focusing on getting my sin to 80 right now... meaning his BH targets are primarily in Valley of Disaster (BH59). There are of course three chains for the 70s:

BH1 Drake --> BH2 Gluttonix --> BH3 Ofotis
BH1 Qianji --> BH2 Zimo --> BH3 Drake
BH1 Pyro (in Wraithgate) --> BH2 Gluttonix --> BH3 Drake

Normally I try not to do the Pyro chain, as I'd just as soon not pay for a wine split for only one boss (and get mixed up in the 80s squads who are concerned with Nob and Pole). Yet no matter what chain it is... there are always people who insist on doing things out of order for no other reason than it being "what I need."

Yesterday, it was a Drake day on HT, and my sin was already stacked for it. Normally getting a BH squad as a sin is a headache (because I have to compete with a lot of other sins for spots, not all of them competent in the slightest -_-), but today I seemed to get lucky - a squad was recruiting as I entered Center Arch, and I ended up joining two barbs, a cleric, another sin, and a BM.

And so we were on our way, breezing through the first few mobs, until we got to the center of the dungeon where you have to choose which guard to kill. At this point, someone says "who first?"

.....

Now, this is where I sigh. As nice as I try to be, there really is only one answer to that question unless you're in a squad of all faction-mates who have agreed to a different order (or there are special circumstances, like the run being converted to a wined FB59). And that answer is "the first boss in the BH chain."

Knowing this, I immediately felt that time was of the essence - I decided I'd rather just take out the Drake area guard and then explain it, rather than risk having to reset so early in. So I immediately ran towards the Drake guard, switched to my Unicorn, sparked, and began to take it out. As I ran, I tried to explain it to the squad as best I could, but before I could finish someone immediately said, "I need Ofo," and that was that - I saw the rest of the squad moving to Ofo's guard on the minimap. But by this point the Drake guard was nearly dead. I finished off the Drake guard and prepared for a QQ storm.

No QQ storm came, really. I'd almost have preferred that - at least people would have listened (maybe) and made an effort to actually talk to me. Instead, half the squad simply quit on the spot with a vauge comment such as "good luck." The remaining two people stayed to listen to my explanation before saying something completely beside the point and quitting as well.



Why has it become commonplace for people to inconvenience each other for the sake of "my kills"? It's not about you, it's about your squad. And the only thing your squad is sure to have is a BH1 for the first boss in today's chain. Then the squad will be sure to have a BH2 for the second boss, and a BH3 for the third. Yesterday, the only thing a lv70s character was sure to have was Drake, Glut, and Ofotis... in that order.

"Ah, but Miug... stacking is courtesy too, isn't it?" Yeah, it can be... and it means you won't need to turn in your BH1 to get your BH2, etc... letting you stay in the area and saving the squad a bit of time (although this is less a problem in BH59 because you'll be back before squad finishes clearing out the next area anyway). But suppose I wasn't stacked. Suppose I'd just hit 70 and I was still building my stacks. Or suppose someone had insisted on starting with, say, Zimo for whatever reason.

My point is this: a squad of randoms should not be subjected to doing bosses they can't get credit for. In BH59, with its five bosses instead of the usual three, this means that there will be some bosses left untouched. And you know what? I'm just going to be blunt about it: I don't care if you have a BH order for one of those other two. I'm sorry, no offense to you Mister Random, but if I've only known you for 10 minutes, I don't want to have to kill a boss that you have and I don't. And frankly, it's selfish of you to ask. Why do you have such a burning desire to kill Zimo and Qianji on a Drake day? Why can you not wait for a Qianji day when you'll get those bosses done anyway? Are you that hellbent on powerleveling (and if so, why not just drop all pretense and hyper your way to 100)? And why would you do all five bosses when you can only turn over two Bounty Orders per day? You're basically just **** up your stacks - and incidentally, mine - for no good reason.

*sigh*

Look, I actually have a lot of sympathy for people in the 70s doing BH... because BH59 is the transitional period between the "I still need a 90+ to hold my hand" days of 39/51, and the "oh look I'm semi-competent now, go me" days of 69/79+. I don't expect every BH59 player to know their class flawlessly, and I will readily admit that BH59's stacking system is the most confusing one.

But please, people, please learn how to stack it and how a quick run is done. You start with the BH1 target. Then you reset the instance (except in the case of the Drake chain where you just proceed to Glut), and kill the BH2 target. Then you reset once more and kill the BH3 target. Resetting takes barely a minute to accomplish and any squad can get through that first handful of mobs at the entrance very quickly.

For the record, I still love doing BH with random people, even though it does grind everyone's nerves a little. You can't always run with the same people. For better or worse, meeting others is the spice of life anywhere you go (even the imfamous interwebz is no exception). But please, guys... learn how the chains work and think of your squadmates. "Courtesy" means considering everyone, not just getting whatever you need done.

Thanks for reading, and (hopefully) happy hunting. :P

Ratsael - Raging Tide

BH I -> BH II -> End Day

Pick up All 3 -> Turn in + Pick up BH II + BH III -> End Day

(Repeat last step each day until next Instance.)

ruffian7

Ok, I took the time and read the whole post. Appreciate me nao!!!b:angry

Anyway, after reading it, it looks like it was YOU who was the selfish one in the squad, because you rushed in first, without agreeing what to do AND others helped the one that needed Ofo (?), which doesn't prove he was selfish...b:surrender

Stacking is very important; in some instances more than the others. I was on my alt that needed bh 39 the other day and I was asked to help a clannie. Sure, I said, but guess what? He needed trioc, the last boss. Nice of another person that was helping (a friend?) that he told me that before I entered the cave. So the plan was to run the whole bh 39 just for the last boss, then he goes turn in, and we do calcid and/or first boss. Wow... REALLY? Spare some time and stack your 3 bhs (at least) so that there will be no need to run the instance more than once!!!! Do the same with 51!!! It's easier to kill bosses in order rather than going to wyvern and accidentally wiping 'cause of Fushy. Bh 69, stack, to save time and money on tele! Bh79, easier to tele out and in, but the door issue is horrible, so stack all bosses and viola!

I come from the are where there was 1 bh per day and it was at my last lvls for bh 59, so it was easy to just kill 1 boss a day. Either stack and tag along with an fb, or wait for your chain day... ALWAYS agree on the order of bosses before you even leave archo, 'cause a lot of time someone will just RQ and it might be you. Better then to go into cave and then after a while disband squad.

But yea, OP, you're the best example of a sin's personality - selfish and blaming it on others.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

ruffian7 wrote: »

Anyway, after reading it, it looks like it was YOU who was the selfish one in the squad, because you rushed in first, without agreeing what to do AND others helped the one that needed Ofo (?), which doesn't prove he was selfish...b:surrender

if you read that whole post, you might've noticed that day was a drake-glutt-ofo chain day. so the one guy who needed ofo would've got it, if he'd not been... drumroll... SELFISH enough to want to get his first.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

ruffian7 wrote: »

Ok, I took the time and read the whole post. Appreciate me nao!!!b:angry

Anyway, after reading it, it looks like it was YOU who was the selfish one in the squad, because you rushed in first, without agreeing what to do AND others helped the one that needed Ofo (?), which doesn't prove he was selfish...b:surrender

Stacking is very important; in some instances more than the others. I was on my alt that needed bh 39 the other day and I was asked to help a clannie. Sure, I said, but guess what? He needed trioc, the last boss. Nice of another person that was helping (a friend?) that he told me that before I entered the cave. So the plan was to run the whole bh 39 just for the last boss, then he goes turn in, and we do calcid and/or first boss. Wow... REALLY? Spare some time and stack your 3 bhs (at least) so that there will be no need to run the instance more than once!!!! Do the same with 51!!! It's easier to kill bosses in order rather than going to wyvern and accidentally wiping 'cause of Fushy. Bh 69, stack, to save time and money on tele! Bh79, easier to tele out and in, but the door issue is horrible, so stack all bosses and viola!

I come from the are where there was 1 bh per day and it was at my last lvls for bh 59, so it was easy to just kill 1 boss a day. Either stack and tag along with an fb, or wait for your chain day... ALWAYS agree on the order of bosses before you even leave archo, 'cause a lot of time someone will just RQ and it might be you. Better then to go into cave and then after a while disband squad.

But yea, OP, you're the best example of a sin's personality - selfish and blaming it on others.

As Lenie said, it seems that you did not read it.

39 is actually the complete opposite of 59. Stacking BH39 is prioritized because you expressly need to kill Calcid in order to get to Trioc. In such an instance, yes, expecting the squad to reset again to re-kill Calcid is very selfish indeed.

All I was doing is the stack for that day, in the order it needed to be done. It was this other person who wanted to do it differently. No re-killing would have been necessary under the normal method, but it would have been under that person's method. Please read. -_-

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Eh, I agree that OP was being a little selfish and insisting that THE ORDER can't be changed around and it's selfish to ask. If the whole squad agrees to an order, just do it that way or change to a different squad instead of asking all of them to do it your way. Yes there is a standard way but just assuming everyone does it that way causes arguments like these. And honestly, who cares if ofo was first. You shouldn't be running to archosaur in the middle of a bh anyway unless you weren't stacked. So just turn them in at once. Unless it's going to have you running around in a bunch of different instances and then back to the one you started, it's really not that big of a deal. I've helped plenty of times with bosses I don't need, it's not rude to say "Since we're here anyway, can you please help me x?" I've let people tag along on my BHs just because they needed some mob there, and they've always stayed and helped complete the whole thing even though they don't have the quest because they have wanted to (unnecessarily but still appreciated) return the kindness. It sounds like the whole thing could have been avoided if everyone agreed to an order though. At least then you wouldn't have killed Zimo's guard. Although it sounds like you would have insisted it be done that way regardless anyway. Just find a different squad if you have this kind of disagreement and it really bothers you so much. Or make it clear the order from the start. Then you can avoid headaches and squad disbands all around. b:pleased

And I agree the person you were arguing with was also selfish for not listening to your reasoning for needing to do Zimo first. And even insisting after you had already accidentally killed Zimo's guard. If he had been paying the slightest bit of attention, and we should all be watching each other's backs in BHs, he would have realized that was done was done and it's not like he WASN'T going to get OFO anyway. I just strongly disagree that's it's selfish to ask people to help out with things you need in a BH that they don't. If one squad member has a different days order or a different bh that happens to strongly overlap it and you've formed a squad you should be helping until everyone is done or forming a different squad. I've helped in a few non-zimo squads, where they helped me kill Zimo and I've stuck around to help them kill all of the BH51 bosses that they needed even though I did not need all of them. And I have definitely gotten credit for things killed out of order before, as long as you kill the boss in your quest list you get credit if it's stacked. Now an unstacked BH is an entirely different story and should be made clear before the squad starts so that anyone who doesn't want that kind of commitment can find a different squad in a timely fashion and you're not wasting everyone's time by either having to reset and rekill bosses or it doesn't cause someone to have to leave it unfinished because you're pressed for time.

SaintDominic - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Eh, I agree that OP was being a little selfish and insisting that THE ORDER can't be changed around and it's selfish to ask. If the whole squad agrees to an order, just do it that way or change to a different squad instead of asking all of them to do it your way. Yes there is a standard way but just assuming everyone does it that way causes arguments like these. And honestly, who cares if ofo was first. You shouldn't be running to archosaur in the middle of a bh anyway unless you weren't stacked. So just turn them in at once. Unless it's going to have you running around in a bunch of different instances and then back to the one you started, it's really not that big of a deal. I've helped plenty of times with bosses I don't need, it's not rude to say "Since we're here anyway, can you please help me x?" I've let people tag along on my BHs just because they needed some mob there, and they've always stayed and helped complete the whole thing even though they don't have the quest because they have wanted to (unnecessarily but still appreciated) return the kindness. It sounds like the whole thing could have been avoided if everyone agreed to an order though. At least then you wouldn't have killed Zimo's guard. Although it sounds like you would have insisted it be done that way regardless anyway. Just find a different squad if you have this kind of disagreement and it really bothers you so much. Or make it clear the order from the start. Then you can avoid headaches and squad disbands all around. b:pleased

And I agree the person you were arguing with was also selfish for not listening to your reasoning for needing to do Zimo first. And even insisting after you had already accidentally killed Zimo's guard. If he had been paying the slightest bit of attention, and we should all be watching each other's backs in BHs, he would have realized that was done was done and it's not like he WASN'T going to get OFO anyway. I just strongly disagree that's it's selfish to ask people to help out with things you need in a BH that they don't. If one squad member has a different days order or a different bh that happens to strongly overlap it and you've formed a squad you should be helping until everyone is done or forming a different squad. I've helped in a few non-zimo squads, where they helped me kill Zimo and I've stuck around to help them kill all of the BH51 bosses that they needed even though I did not need all of them. And I have definitely gotten credit for things killed out of order before, as long as you kill the boss in your quest list you get credit if it's stacked. Now an unstacked BH is an entirely different story and should be made clear before the squad starts so that anyone who doesn't want that kind of commitment can find a different squad in a timely fashion and you're not wasting everyone's time by either having to reset and rekill bosses or it doesn't cause someone to have to leave it unfinished because you're pressed for time.

I agree that OP was pretty selfish because he should've discussed with the whole squad before rushing in on the mob.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Eh, I agree that OP was being a little selfish and insisting that THE ORDER can't be changed around and it's selfish to ask. If the whole squad agrees to an order, just do it that way or change to a different squad instead of asking all of them to do it your way. Yes there is a standard way but just assuming everyone does it that way causes arguments like these. And honestly, who cares if ofo was first. You shouldn't be running to archosaur in the middle of a bh anyway unless you weren't stacked. So just turn them in at once. Unless it's going to have you running around in a bunch of different instances and then back to the one you started, it's really not that big of a deal. I've helped plenty of times with bosses I don't need, it's not rude to say "Since we're here anyway, can you please help me x?" I've let people tag along on my BHs just because they needed some mob there, and they've always stayed and helped complete the whole thing even though they don't have the quest because they have wanted to (unnecessarily but still appreciated) return the kindness. It sounds like the whole thing could have been avoided if everyone agreed to an order though. At least then you wouldn't have killed Zimo's guard. Although it sounds like you would have insisted it be done that way regardless anyway. Just find a different squad if you have this kind of disagreement and it really bothers you so much. Or make it clear the order from the start. Then you can avoid headaches and squad disbands all around. b:pleased

And I agree the person you were arguing with was also selfish for not listening to your reasoning for needing to do Zimo first. And even insisting after you had already accidentally killed Zimo's guard. If he had been paying the slightest bit of attention, and we should all be watching each other's backs in BHs, he would have realized that was done was done and it's not like he WASN'T going to get OFO anyway. I just strongly disagree that's it's selfish to ask people to help out with things you need in a BH that they don't. If one squad member has a different days order or a different bh that happens to strongly overlap it and you've formed a squad you should be helping until everyone is done or forming a different squad. I've helped in a few non-zimo squads, where they helped me kill Zimo and I've stuck around to help them kill all of the BH51 bosses that they needed even though I did not need all of them. And I have definitely gotten credit for things killed out of order before, as long as you kill the boss in your quest list you get credit if it's stacked. Now an unstacked BH is an entirely different story and should be made clear before the squad starts so that anyone who doesn't want that kind of commitment can find a different squad in a timely fashion and you're not wasting everyone's time by either having to reset and rekill bosses or it doesn't cause someone to have to leave it unfinished because you're pressed for time.

Little bit of clarification on this one:

I did not kill Zimo's guard, I killed Drake's guard because Drake was the target. And although I'd started killing it already when "ofo" came up, I did in fact finish the kill deliberately. You call it selfish without understanding why - when in the OP, I said:

I immediately felt that time was of the essence - I decided I'd rather just take out the Drake area guard and then explain it, rather than risk having to reset so early in.

I have been in squads that do not understand the stacking system at all. Some of them understand it after being given the explanation. Then again, I've also been in squads where I'm trying to explain it and some selfish person kills the Zimo guard or whoever without even listening. I figured this time I should take out the correct guard and then explain why.

The other person wasn't being selfish because "I wanted zimo and they wouldn't let me." To want them to kill Zimo would have been selfish of me. I just wanted to do the chain, and this person selected ofo without even asking the squad if everyone was stacked or if diverting from chain order was okay.

I actually did ask the squad if they were doing the Drake chain when I joined it. Some people don't understand this question, I guess. -_- But really, is it necessary to do that every time? I think if there's no discussion on the matter, the squad should default to the order that best benefits everyone involved (i.e. the chain). It should've been up to the ofo person to suggest doing ofo first. But then again, the worst part was when the other person asked "who first?" when we got there. Comments like that just tempt this kind of on-the-fly deviation and the resultant problems, I guess.

So please, don't pick out one single detail and demonize me for it. o.O

ruffian7

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As Lenie said, it seems that you did not read it.

39 is actually the complete opposite of 59. Stacking BH39 is prioritized because you expressly need to kill Calcid in order to get to Trioc. In such an instance, yes, expecting the squad to reset again to re-kill Calcid is very selfish indeed.

All I was doing is the stack for that day, in the order it needed to be done. It was this other person who wanted to do it differently. No re-killing would have been necessary under the normal method, but it would have been under that person's method. Please read. -_-

Ehhhh... I said I DID read the whole thing. I DID see that you wanted to do the chain of the day (whether your assumptions about the chain of the day were right or not, I don't know). The thing is....... not all people do their bhs when they get it, some just pick it up, but do it the next day.

Your post in short:
-intro with available bh59 chains
-calling the other person selfish
-running into the guard for drake (?) by yourself [WITHOUT CONSULTING ANYONE!!!!!]
-hearing that someone needs ofo (?) and then that people rushed to him
-calling the other person selfish....

So yea, I did read what ya wrote, now read what you wrote and what I did. You rushed in first, you didn't discuss the order with the group, YOU were left in the squad... Hmm.... really... am I still the one that didn't read? or is it you that is blindfolded?

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

if you read that whole post, you might've noticed that day was a drake-glutt-ofo chain day. so the one guy who needed ofo would've got it, if he'd not been... drumroll... SELFISH enough to want to get his first.

Oh Lenie... yea, if you did read, you'd also see that the OP and his squad did not discuss the order, because the OP rushed in too fast, AND that the rest helped the guy who needed ofo, INSTEAD of helping the OP.... and... DRUMROLL.... THEY LEFT HIM!!!! Go figure.

SaintDominic - Sanctuary wrote: »

I agree that OP was pretty selfish because he should've discussed with the whole squad before rushing in on the mob.

Yup.

EDIT: Your post above just seals it for me. Go power lvl your sin. Your personality works with it. YOU were the selfish one; acted like God....

Miugre - Heavens Tear

ruffian7 wrote: »

Ehhhh... I said I DID read the whole thing. I DID see that you wanted to do the chain of the day (whether your assumptions about the chain of the day were right or not, I don't know). The thing is....... not all people do their bhs when they get it, some just pick it up, but do it the next day.

Your post in short:
-intro with available bh59 chains
-calling the other person selfish
-running into the guard for drake (?) by yourself [WITHOUT CONSULTING ANYONE!!!!!]
-hearing that someone needs ofo (?) and then that people rushed to him
-calling the other person selfish....

So yea, I did read what ya wrote, now read what you wrote and what I did. You rushed in first, you didn't discuss the order with the group, YOU were left in the squad... Hmm.... really... am I still the one that didn't read? or is it you that is blindfolded?

Oh Lenie... yea, if you did read, you'd also see that the OP and his squad did not discuss the order, because the OP rushed in too fast, AND that the rest helped the guy who needed ofo, INSTEAD of helping the OP.... and... DRUMROLL.... THEY LEFT HIM!!!! Go figure.

Why do you assume that discussing the order needs to be on my shoulders? I was doing the day's chain, which delivers the most good for all parties involved. If there's any deviation from that plan, it's up to them - the person who wants to deviate from it - to announce their request. At that point the squad should discuss and vote for it.

The only inkling of the squad's intention was when I first joined, and the dicussion went something like this:
Recruiter: LFM BH59
Me (whisper): I'll go, but what chain is it today? I heard it was drake...
Recruiter: Yep, drake
Me: Cool go ahead and inv.

So as far as I could tell, the squad intended to follow the chain. Then suddenly the squad follows one blind order by a person who, as Lenie so eloquently pointed out, would have gotten that kill anyway had they followed the chain. What do you think I should've done? Tried to explain it to them while they took out the ofo guard? I've tried that, and most of the time it doesn't work.

ValFera - Heavens Tear

Hate to say it dude but that is something that should be discussed before you even enter the instance.

Unless the world chat specifically said it was for the "Drake Chain" there is the posibility that one of the other members could be on a different chain that you. (i.e. they could have zimo, or as in the case of the other person ofo, heck someone might have them all).

I espcially try to get as many as i can before going in and doing a 59 on my sin.

But as i said this even goes for other instances such as 51, 69, and 79 you need to determine what everyone needs before you even set foot in the instance.

You can hollar at me later in faction if you want i will be prepared.

Llux - Sanctuary

^^^That. b:surrender

Ruxal - Harshlands

1) In a random squad it is best to agree on what boss you intend to fight first. In fact normally when the squad is being put together this is indicated e.g. bh59 drake first lf ........

2) This whole concept of stacking bhs is rediculous. Yes it becomes a matter of convenience for some e.g. wasting wine on just pyro etc but for me I always completed my bhs for the day on the day until lvl 79 at which point I no longer do bhs until perhaps I hit 100. People who stack bhs level no faster than I did and always found themselves in the silly position of inconveniencing whole squads just because "but I got ofo from yesterday" and they insist it must be done on that run.

3) Lol @ killing drake guard and party quitting, thats just funny.

ruffian7

Your quotes in 'wheat' color, Miugre.

"Why do you assume that discussing the order needs to be on my shoulders?"

Ok, now you're more reasonable.

Nope, it is not only your responsibility, BUT, as you stated, it's the middle bh, a transition, and some people are more lost than the others. I'm past this stage, but I always communicate with my squad. EVERYONE should clearly ask if everyone agrees on a certain thing so there are no surprises later on. Personally, I dislike quiet squads. In such, people always run in their own directions, do their stuff, which often leads to problems, which is why I always try to lay out everything clearly at the beginning. If you start doing this, you will set an example, and soon you will see there are more people that want to COMMUNICATE so everything goes smooth.

"I was doing the day's chain, which delivers the most good for all parties involved. If there's any deviation from that plan, it's up to them - the person who wants to deviate from it - to announce their request. At that point the squad should discuss and vote for it."

It does not necessarily deliver most good for all parties. See my posts above. Sadly, that was not a plan, hell, there was NO plan. Yes, any deviations should be discussed and voted for, but since there was no plan, no deviation occurred.

"The only inkling of the squad's intention was when I first joined, and the dicussion went something like this:
Recruiter: LFM BH59
Me (whisper): I'll go, but what chain is it today? I heard it was drake...
Recruiter: Yep, drake
Me: Cool go ahead and inv."

Yea, anyone can ask for the chain of the day, but it does not mean you will do it. One cannot judge solely by this whether the squad is doing today's chain or not.


"So as far as I could tell, the squad intended to follow the chain. Then suddenly the squad follows one blind order by a person who, as Lenie so eloquently pointed out, would have gotten that kill anyway had they followed the chain. What do you think I should've done? Tried to explain it to them while they took out the ofo guard? I've tried that, and most of the time it doesn't work."

Obviously, I was not there, and can't vouch for anything, but have you paused for a minute and asked yourself 'why did the rest blindly follow an order of a random, selfish person?' If yes, then what was your explanation? If no, then, well, maybe you should. What do I think you should have done? I'd clearly ask if everyone agrees on *insert WHOLE chain*. If yes, cool. If no, I'd see if the deviations can be incorporated into the plan. If yes, cool. If not, either leave squad, or ask the rest of squad, maybe the 'deviant' would be kicked and another person found?!

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Ok lets consider the chain in question

Drake -> Glutt -> Ofo

Consider the order of the bosses you can do, depending on the guard u kill

Zimo -> Ofo -> Qiaji -> Drake -> Glutt -> Zimo

FB59 has a cyclic opening of areas starting from the guard you kill

In this case,

OP was selfish -> Assumed everyone needed to do the BH in the order of the day without asking if another sequence is required

Ofo Requestor was selfish -> Wanted Ofo first, at the last minute when OP was already killing the drake guard. Did he/she not notice that?

Person asking "Which first" at the guards -> Root cause of the confusion and plain dumb. Should have asked the question before starting

Now if they did Ofo first, they could reset, then do Drake and Glutt without a reset

If they did Drake first, they could have done Glutt without reset and reset for Ofo.

Either ways its 1 reset and had they not disbanded because it didnt go a particular way, everyone would have got their kills in end for almost the same amount of time. If a wine was used, additional wine cost <.<.

All in all a really confused BH squad which in the end just wasted their time.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Ruxal - Harshlands wrote: »

1) In a random squad it is best to agree on what boss you intend to fight first. In fact normally when the squad is being put together this is indicated e.g. bh59 drake first lf ........

2) This whole concept of stacking bhs is rediculous. Yes it becomes a matter of convenience for some e.g. wasting wine on just pyro etc but for me I always completed my bhs for the day on the day until lvl 79 at which point I no longer do bhs until perhaps I hit 100. People who stack bhs level no faster than I did and always found themselves in the silly position of inconveniencing whole squads just because "but I got ofo from yesterday" and they insist it must be done on that run.

3) Lol @ killing drake guard and party quitting, thats just funny.

2: time of a stacked run << time of an unstacked run.
personally i have better stuff to do than waiting for u to fly to archo, get ur next bh and returned. non-stacking is foolish.

i was in squads that agreed on a boss and when we entered the cave we had to discuss again...
well, i soloed on my main and then switched to my cleric /bh

OP, you practically enforced your view (coup d'etat?). yes, ur view is correct, but the means were not.

59 is the worse bh regarding stacking/order etc
it's a mess and it really annoys u if you are doing it on an alt.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

BH1 Drake --> BH2 Gluttonix --> BH3 Ofotis

Yesterday, it was a Drake day on HT, and my sin was already stacked for it.

Let me get this straight... you were stacked for the day (meaning you had all three BHs for the day in your quest log) and you were upset that your squad wanted BH3 first?

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Their are a lot of assumptions being made at the moment, and even during the bh run. Obviously it's not yours, or any one's person's responsibility to make sure what is going on in each person quest list, but obviously if no one does it, no one will, and there would have been far more assumptions made, argo a lot more people looking like anti social brats who really don't care for anyone but themselves. =x

My suggestion to the original poster, is just confirm it once the squad is full before you head off.

Sadly it sounded like only one person replied after that 'one' person asked "who first?" The answer unfortunately for you did not coincide with your plans.

Whether you like to admit it or not, it was kind of selfish for you to just start attacking the drake guard, however I can't say that I would NOT have done the same thing in your shoes. It can be quite troublesome trying to tilt everyone's "favor" into your way of thinking, and the "rational" way of doing things, and in this case it would obviously be doing drake first, then gluttinox, and lastly ofotis.

Personally what I do, is if I can't do bh the next day after I have finished a stacked order is wait until 2 days later to turn in, (or rather when I do get the chance to do the bh) that way I will be sure to have "today's" order. Sure it may take me longer to level, but it does help avoid trying to get a squad for qianji first, when everyone else seems to be doing drake first. =x

Also as mayfly pointed out, it really shouldn't have mattered, however I do get that... it would have be real troublesome to everyone else in squad to have to reset a dozen times to get everyone's bh done in the right order... especially for the non stackers.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

I think the OP cares way too much about it all.

Personally, I'm stacked on BHs and a lot of times I spend time not doing BHs for weeks, so I'm not exactly likely to have an up-to-date chain, but rather a random collection of BHs. This really isn't a problem in the 80s, when you mostly get bosses in 69.

As for the 59, I don't think that the way suggested by the OP is the best, due to the way the dungeon is constructed. Even though it takes a bit of time, I'd still prefer to do all of the bosses, with pauses for those who wish to deliver their BHs. It's the fairest way and makes sure everyone gets something. In the case that you happen to get a boss that was already killed, that's just tough luck. Resetting a BH for any reason at all is a massive waste of time.

As for 39, I could never stand the people who insisted on doing Trioc first, because that has a high chance of ending up with them also insisting on resetting for Calcid, which is again massive waste of time.

Personally, I didn't do that many BH59s on this assassin, as I leveled most of my 70s by doing stuff in the PQ area. 72-75 I remember soloing the elites, while 75-80 I mostly got from soloing the boss. Of course, I was on x12 at the time.

However, I have learned to stop caring about leveling that much. It's not like the lower levels matter anyway and in higher levels, the general unity between people tends to rise as people have common goals.

Really, if you're going to get all emotional about a few less-than-bright people being less-than-bright, you shouldn't play a game that is based on team work. If the others can't adapt to your level, you either leave or adapt to them. Simple as that.

sig1043a

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And so we were on our way, breezing through the first few mobs, until we got to the center of the dungeon where you have to choose which guard to kill. At this point, someone says "who first?"

.....

Now, this is where I sigh. As nice as I try to be, there really is only one answer to that question unless you're in a squad of all faction-mates who have agreed to a different order (or there are special circumstances, like the run being converted to a wined FB59). And that answer is "the first boss in the BH chain."

Knowing this, I immediately felt that time was of the essence - I decided I'd rather just take out the Drake area guard and then explain it, rather than risk having to reset so early in.

Even if you are right, and know the right order, and don't want to risk some tool killing the wrong guard (ironically) without considering what the rest of the group wants to do, how are you surprised by the group dumping you for your slick move of 'kill first, explain later?'

In case you haven't learned this yet, no one likes THAT guy who runs off and does his own thing, especially if they have just opened the floor for discussion. You got dumped for being THAT guy, and rightly so.

Would it really have been so hard to utter, "Drake first." (New sentence) "So we don't have to reset the instance."? That way you have fired off what needs to be done first and people are less likely to run off to the wrong guard. Then (hopefully) the group will wait for your explanation. Even if someone mentioned they needed Ofo, you still could have said, "Wait." (new sentence) "If we do Drake first we will get Ofo too and won't have to reset."

A little common courtesy goes a long way.

Even aside from your rant about who was being selfish for trying to **** up YOUR stacked BH, if the rest of the group moved towards Ofo, except you, it could mean that everyone else only needed Ofo. In which case, it would be you who was being extraordinarily selfish (in addition to being that guy.) The other option could be they didn't know about stacking, in which case it would have been nice of you to explain it rather than just doing what was 'right' for them.

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver

tbh in most 59 squads I've been in we generally figure out who needs who, and just systematically clear the dungeon, starting and stopping depending on what bosses need to die. If 4 bosses come up, we generally try skipping the one boss that no one needs dead. With the way 59 is set up, and how the stacks don't always make sense, a total instance clear works best.

Unless you have **** for players and DD the run will take less than 2 hours.
IDK who started the rumour that unwinded 59 runs take 5 years, but they don't.

Generally from my perspective the person who runs ahead and ignores everyone is the ****, and more times than not Assassins seem to have more fail/**** people that any other class.

Though tbh, just randomly dropping squad without explanation isn't really any better in my books.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

tbh in most 59 squads I've been in we generally figure out who needs who, and just systematically clear the dungeon, starting and stopping depending on what bosses need to die. If 4 bosses come up, we generally try skipping the one boss that no one needs dead. With the way 59 is set up, and how the stacks don't always make sense, a total instance clear works best.

Unless you have **** for players and DD the run will take less than 2 hours.
IDK who started the rumour that unwinded 59 runs take 5 years, but they don't.

Generally from my perspective the person who runs ahead and ignores everyone is the ****, and more times than not Assassins seem to have more fail/**** people that any other class.

Though tbh, just randomly dropping squad without explanation isn't really any better in my books.

The stuff in the red be the truth. It doesn't take long, but I still don't like doing full runs un-wined, even with 1 high level overpowered high apser comes in and helps. (Obviously I don't do it on this character but I do still do it on my numerous alts.) The only problem with doing a full 59 without wine is that their is a far better chance of someone just happening to have to go afk, thus taking up a lot of time, not to mention that I myself rarely volunteer for 59 anymore due to the fact that I rarely have the time to stop and do it, even when I have the time I still dread doing it without wine.

Though the very same thing could be said with numerous end game instances, like a full delta run, a full seat of torment run, they all could potentially take a lot longer due to the unforeseen variables just all of sudden coming up for one or more people in your squad, which is really bad for everyone especially if it is the only tank... far more likely to leave you without help... is a cleric... in squad that has to leave.

Either way some people don't mind helping on a 59 that is without wine, and if I had the time I wouldn't mind it either. =x

Guess it's one of those things that you just have to make sure nothing else 'might' come up. =x

Katzyn - Sanctuary

It's selfish to not even give the squad a chance to talk it out. You didn't give them a choice, and for that, I certainly would have left, too.

BH59s kinda suck, in that everyone always needs more bosses, so most squads I've been in end up just doing all the bosses, because most people like helping each other.

Okeano - Harshlands

K... most of the posts in this thread were tl;dr BUUUUTTT I think you are overestimating the IQ of the general player base. I wouldn't even bother to explain something like that, consider the people I find when I was doing 7X BH on my Cleric.

*Squad at Ofo, waiting for BM*
*Squad sees BM getting close and starts boss*
*BM runs up with 5 mobs chasing him* (like... are you ****ing serious?)
*I face palms and BB*
*Squad runs out of BB to chase mobs*
*Squad wipes*
*Everyone shrugs and leaves squad*

Dixievixen - Heavens Tear

It has been my experience that people lie. Presently I hold 6 legs of BH59 without one chain being stacked. Reason being squad mates going out of order and then just dumping squad because their stuff was done. Order was discussed in the beginning and changed in the dungeon by the muscle or the healer on the squad. It would seem that was the plan all long. More than one time I have been left with with one or two mates at my level with our chains broken and no way to finish the job. I hope I have better luck when I get to BH69.

OdessaWolf - Dreamweaver

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Let me get this straight... you were stacked for the day (meaning you had all three BHs for the day in your quest log) and you were upset that your squad wanted BH3 first?

My thoughts exactly. OP stated he was stacked. What difference would it have made if they done Ofo first? OP gonna get all his bosses done...

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Okay... at this point I reailze I'm dragging this thread off of page 2, and doing so has been no small decision on my part. To be honest, I didn't post at all for the last 24 hours or so simply because I was very frustrated at how people - some of the first few in particular - completely skimmed over the point of my thread only to pick apart the one piece of it in which I had not wholly behaved like a saint. >_>

Fortunately, I do believe in taking time to compose oneself before continuing. So at the risk of dredging this all up again, I thought I'd answer a few of the more valid arguments here and then just wash my hands of it all.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even though it takes a bit of time, I'd still prefer to do all of the bosses, with pauses for those who wish to deliver their BHs. It's the fairest way and makes sure everyone gets something. In the case that you happen to get a boss that was already killed, that's just tough luck. Resetting a BH for any reason at all is a massive waste of time.

"Tough luck" you call it, while in my version everyone gets something they need and no one has to sit through something they don't need. How is my version the more selfish one? Because someone's not going to get to do Qianji on a Drake day? They'll get it tomorrow anyway. Which day they end up doing it has no effect on their exp.

Futhermore, why are you painting resets as a waste of time when you advocate doing the whole thing? A reset takes 60 seconds to leave the instance (in which time the squad can be reformed completely as long as there's a different leader). Then everyone appears in King's Feast, from which the entrance is no more than 30 seconds away. Taking out the starter mobs and the next guard? Maybe 2-3 minutes. Contrast that to the time running all the way back to the center room after every boss kill (which IMO easily negates the time it takes to reset), running through the next zone and taking out the mobs (and do not discount that as time-consuming in comparison to a reset), taking out the boss, and add in the general tendency for a 7x to not use Holy Path (which makes long runs like BH79 quicker). By definition since you're doing five portions of the dungeon instead of three, you're covering 66% more ground and killing 66% more mobs/bosses. Factor in the time it takes to reset, perhaps, and I'd say your version of the run still takes 50% longer than my version, easily, and accomplishes next to nothing in the long run.

And again, "turn-ins" are more acceptable in BH59 because 90% of the time, at least half the squad will remain in (or around) the instance and will usually proceed with clearing the next portion that is needed. Hence, that member's temporary absence will not cause nearly as much of a time waste as, say, an unstacked BH69 Polearm chain (where you have to wait between killing Pole, Pryo and then Nob with nothing to be cleared in the meantime). Either way, though - if you need to turn in mid-run, IMO it's good courtesy to use the illusion stone and get back to the squad as soon as reasonably possible.

sig1043a wrote: »

Even aside from your rant about who was being selfish for trying to **** up YOUR stacked BH, if the rest of the group moved towards Ofo, except you, it could mean that everyone else only needed Ofo. In which case, it would be you who was being extraordinarily selfish (in addition to being that guy.) The other option could be they didn't know about stacking, in which case it would have been nice of you to explain it rather than just doing what was 'right' for them.

I'm going to merge my response to yours in with the one below:

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Whether you like to admit it or not, it was kind of selfish for you to just start attacking the drake guard, however I can't say that I would NOT have done the same thing in your shoes. It can be quite troublesome trying to tilt everyone's "favor" into your way of thinking, and the "rational" way of doing things, and in this case it would obviously be doing drake first, then gluttinox, and lastly ofotis.

And that was the basis for my action. Most people who will actually listen eventually do see how doing it chained still benefits everyone best. But that's not possible when you have that one less-than-bright fellow who looks at his quest log, picks a BH at random and demands that specific target. And then the squad... bless their helpful natures, all they can do is just follow a person who clearly just made a stupid decision.

So IMO, sir sig1043a, that is the definition of "that guy."

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote:

Let me get this straight... you were stacked for the day (meaning you had all three BHs for the day in your quest log) and you were upset that your squad wanted BH3 first?

It was the principle of the thing. No question of "are you stacked" had been asked, so I had to assume that at least one person on the squad was not (as is usually the case when I do see that question asked). Furthermore, there was no reason given for the deviation to Ofo - so I foresaw a high chance of them making futher deviations that had nothing to do with the stack (like just doing Qianji afterwards).

Dixievixen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Reason being squad mates going out of order and then just dumping squad because their stuff was done.

Which is another reason doing BH59 in chained mode is the best way - it ensures that they'll have some reason to stick around when the first boss is done.






Moral of the story? Yeah, never assume that people are going to understand things in such a confusing system. Deciding it beforehand is always a good idea... but you'd better pray that you get a squad that even understands what you're asking. Last night for instance, I recruited another sin, a barb, and a veno and attempted to ask them what chain was today. The sin was played by my significant other (who didn't know either). The barb, for his part, spoke in ALL CAPS and repeatedly demonstrated zero knowledge of what's going on (e.g. "NO YESTERDAY CHAIN" - o.O?). The veno appeared to have picked up a BH1 for Pyro, so having figured out it was a pyro day, we politely bowed out of squad... although tbh, leaving that barb to his own devices probably saved us a lot of headache. :P

sig1043a

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It was the principle of the thing. No question of "are you stacked" had been asked, so I had to assume that at least one person on the squad was not (as is usually the case when I do see that question asked). Furthermore, there was no reason given for the deviation to Ofo - so I foresaw a high chance of them making futher deviations that had nothing to do with the stack (like just doing Qianji afterwards).


Which is another reason doing BH59 in chained mode is the best way - it ensures that they'll have some reason to stick around when the first boss is done.

I am not saying that your way wasn't the most efficient or made the most sense. I am saying you got what you deserved by being dumped, which consequently led you to rant about other peoples' inability to comprehend the benefits of doing BH's in an efficient and stacked manner. The reason I pointed this out is because you start your post about how you are respectful and courteous, which contradicts your actions. You may have been right, but you went about it the wrong way.

There is that saying, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I completely understand your frustration with BH's and pickup groups. But had you been more diplomatic about the situation rather than the way you handled it, you might have had five more people who understand and appreciate the benefits of stacking BH's.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

sig1043a wrote: »

I am not saying that your way wasn't the most efficient or made the most sense. I am saying you got what you deserved by being dumped, which consequently led you to rant about other peoples' inability to comprehend the benefits of doing BH's in an efficient and stacked manner. The reason I pointed this out is because you start your post about how you are respectful and courteous, which contradicts your actions. You may have been right, but you went about it the wrong way.

There is that saying, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I completely understand your frustration with BH's and pickup groups. But had you been more diplomatic about the situation rather than the way you handled it, you might have had five more people who understand and appreciate the benefits of stacking BH's.

Aye, all true. But no one can be a saint 100% of the time, and I think we can all agree that terrible BH squads can get on the nerves of everyone, especially if over half the squads you end up in are terrible. In short: I make no claims to be perfect. <_>

In truth, the precursor of stating that I try to be courteous/respectful/etc. was in direct relation to my actions in that BH. I took an action that could be seen as selfish in one light, but helpful in yet another. I had hoped my reasons would be obvious and readers would not jump to the same hasty conclusion that my squad had. Unfortunately that seemed to be the case yesterday, which is why I excused myself from the forums for the rest of the night rather than risk blowing up at someone.

Not that it helps my case in any large way, but I feel I should point out that, as the last joiner to the squad, some of them had already entered the instance and were getting ready to clear. When I entered, there was a quick buffing session and the squad immediately set off with a strange efficiency that I don't normally see in BH59 (perhaps this was owing to 3 squad members being in the same faction - though I was not in squad long enough to pair which person said what to which faction they were from). My point being, there was a certain rushed nature to the whole thing, which would have limited me from explaining my points even if I felt they needed to be (as well as there being a possibility of faction chat that I was not privy to).

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

"Tough luck" you call it, while in my version everyone gets something they need and no one has to sit through something they don't need. How is my version the more selfish one? Because someone's not going to get to do Qianji on a Drake day? They'll get it tomorrow anyway. Which day they end up doing it has no effect on their exp.

Well, by killing all of the bosses in the order they're supposed to be killed, not only does it guarantee that everyone gets at least one BH done, but it also cuts away all of the questions.

Futhermore, why are you painting resets as a waste of time when you advocate doing the whole thing? A reset takes 60 seconds to leave the instance (in which time the squad can be reformed completely as long as there's a different leader). Then everyone appears in King's Feast, from which the entrance is no more than 30 seconds away. Taking out the starter mobs and the next guard? Maybe 2-3 minutes. Contrast that to the time running all the way back to the center room after every boss kill (which IMO easily negates the time it takes to reset), running through the next zone and taking out the mobs (and do not discount that as time-consuming in comparison to a reset), taking out the boss, and add in the general tendency for a 7x to not use Holy Path (which makes long runs like BH79 quicker). By definition since you're doing five portions of the dungeon instead of three, you're covering 66% more ground and killing 66% more mobs/bosses. Factor in the time it takes to reset, perhaps, and I'd say your version of the run still takes 50% longer than my version, easily, and accomplishes next to nothing in the long run.

If you reset once, you end up with people insisting on returning after every boss and resetting until they get all of their BHs done. Now that's a massive waste of everyone else's time, especially if more than one person gets on that track.

There's also the issue that even if you and your faction mates are aware of the daily chains, there are people who are not. Some because they don't know there is an order, some because they're stacked and don't need to pay attention, others because they rarely do BH and have leftovers that could be weeks old. Personally, I've never bothered to even try to learn the orders, as I prefer to stack my BHs and do them whenever I can manage to get a squad.

And again, "turn-ins" are more acceptable in BH59 because 90% of the time, at least half the squad will remain in (or around) the instance and will usually proceed with clearing the next portion that is needed. Hence, that member's temporary absence will not cause nearly as much of a time waste as, say, an unstacked BH69 Polearm chain (where you have to wait between killing Pole, Pryo and then Nob with nothing to be cleared in the meantime). Either way, though - if you need to turn in mid-run, IMO it's good courtesy to use the illusion stone and get back to the squad as soon as reasonably possible.

Not only is using the Illusion Stone good manners, but it's also a financially sound choice. With any aerogear, you'd spend a few minutes flying to Archosaur and back and in that time you could get the Illusion Stone fee from killing mobs.

The sad part about BHs is that they lack team work. There's no leader and no plan of action, so whoever speaks first gets their will, usually. Personally I don't mind that, since BHs or levels aren't a big deal to me. I only voice my opinion and start taking a leader-esque position in the case that things are proceeding extremely slowly.

Really, I think that the attitude of "I'll get a BH squad and get all of the day's BHs done in one go" is an overly optimistic attitude. Personally, I go in with "Well, I hope to get at least one BH done". You might call that an overly pessimistic attitude, or call me a cynic, but even getting a single BH done has a lot of expectations of the squad.

Mrs_kasshu - Dreamweaver

Yesterday in bh59, almost the whole squad had a problem with gluttonix. It wasn't killing him that was the problem, but that none of us got credit for the kill. I know about the fb tab glitch on that boss, but is there some other glitch idk about?