Bramble + Clerics = ???

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There are no shrunchkins in fb51.

Shrunchkins: world; fb39
Mistrealm: archer (bh51); magus (bh51)

in fairness, the confusion here may be because the mistrealm-type mobs in 51 use basically the same models and textures, and substantially the same behavior, as the shrunchkins in 39. other than being tougher to kill, they're more or less renamed shrunchkins.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Are we not venos ourselves? It's nice to see that you've gotten your input from a guide while the rest of us have been commenting from our own experience.

Check back through what I wrote. I never once said bramble all clerics all the time. My issue is with the point #10 that you've quoted. I know many clerics that want to be brambled. It's an insult and a hinderance to not bramble them.

Take comfort in the fact that if in the ever ill begotten chance that you and I were squaded, I wouldn't bramble you. You obviously can't take it.

This is coming from a Veno who has probably done a lot in dungeons as being HA and does sticky guides in this forum.I would listen to this one over above all else.

sleepcat

Rei is a pretty good Veno, but she's not the end-all Veno whose advice is superior to all other Venos who are arguing against you right now. Not to mention she hasn't been playing her Veno for almost a year now and the gameplay dynamic changes in recent times can possibly render some of her information obsolete.

Alphae - Lost City

Sarieanna - Raging Tide wrote: »

Bramble is beneficial but I find that I aggro more easily.
Hope this helps b:cute

It's your imagination, to be honest. For the last time, in NO WAY does bramble attract any more aggro than you already have UNLESS the mob is already melee bashing you.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is coming from a Veno who has probably done a lot in dungeons as being HA and does sticky guides in this forum.I would listen to this one over above all else.

sleepcat wrote: »

Rei is a pretty good Veno, but she's not the end-all Veno whose advice is superior to all other Venos who are arguing against you right now. Not to mention she hasn't been playing her Veno for almost a year now and the gameplay dynamic changes in recent times can possibly render some of her information obsolete.

^This.

I be Rei would tell you the same thing, were she here, tbh. She was pretty level-headed and a very good veno.

Meyki - Sanctuary

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

It's your imagination, to be honest. For the last time, in NO WAY does bramble attract any more aggro than you already have UNLESS the mob is already melee bashing you.

If you did not open at least 5 packs during last week, bramble would draw aggro even without any melee bashing.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is coming from a Veno who has probably done a lot in dungeons as being HA and does sticky guides in this forum.I would listen to this one over above all else.

If you read through that thread, you'll see that the thread was directed at level 40 and lower venos. This discussion has been going beyond that scope. Yes, there are very good things in that guide, but part of what makes it good is that it wasn't just Rei's input. Yes, she may have started it, but she incorporated the input from many others. This thread is taking one point and exploring it further.

As others have mentioned, she has been inactive for over a year and as such, the guide hasn't been updated in that long. While a lot of it still holds, there are some things that are out of date.

While Rei does indeed know the class well, she has her own play style, as do we all. This class is one of, if not the, most versatile class in the game. There are many different builds, pet combinations, and over all playing tactics that you can use and excell at the class. To think that there is a single way to play a veno is absurd.

IMHO, whether the sources you pull from are good or bad makes no difference. Information and advice is always better from someone who has experienced it, and not hearing it from someone second hand.

Keliska - Raging Tide

Why is there two of the same threads?

Anyways, give bramble if asked.

Dungeons = no-no
Soloing = I don't see to much of a problem
PvP = Eh, I don't honestly see why not.

Alphae - Lost City

Meyki - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you did not open at least 5 packs during last week, bramble would draw aggro even without any melee bashing.

Damn, forgot that little caveat. b:sad b:surrender

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Meyki - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you did not open at least 5 packs during last week, bramble would draw aggro even without any melee bashing.

Evidence from WC indicates that opening packs draws more aggro than bramble ever did.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Evidence from WC indicates that opening packs draws more aggro than bramble ever did.

LMAO that totally made me laugh b:laugh

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Evidence from WC indicates that opening packs draws more aggro than bramble ever did.

in Heaven tear , 1 guy got 8 tokens of best luck in 1 day = 40 million if he sold them all

Keliska - Raging Tide

haha same in Raging tides

My faction leader was like wtf. xD

Desdi - Sanctuary

It seems that there is a guy in Sanctuary who opens packs 24/7. I see his name in the World Chat everytime I'm online...no matter if it's morning or midnight for me... My friends said the same thing.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

I be Rei would tell you the same thing, were she here, tbh. She was pretty level-headed and a very good veno.

Who knows what she would say?I was doing bh59 with my faction which included 2 Venos and they didn't use bramble only on the BM which we used as tank.We didn't have barb so he had to suffice.I will say this with all the other buffs do you really need to use bramble as I never do solo or squad mode.I do well without it.

Yes I do know how to kite as playing healer class for over 5 years now you need to.I am not a big fan of dungeons.

Alphae - Lost City

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

Who knows what she would say?I was doing bh59 with my faction which included 2 Venos and they didn't use bramble only on the BM which we used as tank.We didn't have barb so he had to suffice.I will say this with all the other buffs do you really need to use bramble as I never do solo or squad mode.I do well without it.

Yes I do know how to kite as playing healer class for over 5 years now you need to.I am not a big fan of dungeons.

Then can I ask why in the name of all that's holy do you pick the 1 class necessary in nearly every dungeon and instance implemented?

DrJenn - Raging Tide

Darth_Puggy - Archosaur wrote: »

I've been told you should only Bramble the tank. Bramble helps to draw aggro and you don't want your healer grabbing aggro.

I am cleric and sincle low lvls i was so thankful for brambles! They work as shield and reflect dmg if u'r in danger. Butt Saver buff!

If bramble haters attack without thinking and draw aggro it has nothing to do with veno buff, improve yourselfs then and dont make drama.
As for clerics, wait till aggro taken on mobs then heal, if u **** up it's not bramble's fault seriously..


Idk who started this bramble myth but tbh..the classes who complain are clerics, psys and sins..why i dont hear wizzys complain? maybe cuz they know their limits and dont draw aggro on purpose?

Stop False Bramble Myth and enjoy this buff!
Happy Gaming! =^.^=

Thedarkrealm - Lost City

Don't Bramble AA classes, its pointless and helps nothing.

/thread

Bluelita - Archosaur

I was reading all this thread very attentively, but still it was mainly consecrated to squad mode (which is logical, as this was the question finally
To complete it for all readers, one supplementary question : you see sb making a solo grinding/questing. Do you then bramble this person to help her, or better ask before?

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

If they're a melee type (BM/barb/sin), or grinding on melee types I bramble.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

DrJenn - Raging Tide wrote: »

I am cleric and sincle low lvls i was so thankful for brambles! They work as shield and reflect dmg if u'r in danger. Butt Saver buff!

um, no. bramble guard is misnamed --- it doesn't work as a shield, at all. you still take full damage yourself, it's just that whatever damaged you takes some percentage of it as extra damage on itself.

if brambles save your butt, it's only because of that extra damage killing the mob a little quicker. there's no shielding involved.

Idk who started this bramble myth but tbh..the classes who complain are clerics, psys and sins..why i dont hear wizzys complain? maybe cuz they know their limits and dont draw aggro on purpose?

or because wizards' nukes kill their target before it can get in melee range of them and trigger the bramble? b:chuckle

clerics don't want aggro, and psys have soul of vengeance (though it's not as if bramble hurts them any worse than SoV...) but i don't see why 'sins should complain about bramble, they're bound to take melee damage to some extent, and the bramble reflect should help them kill a little bit faster still.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Bluelita - Archosaur wrote:

To complete it for all readers, one supplementary question : you see sb making a solo grinding/questing. Do you then bramble this person to help her, or better ask before?

Mayfly wrote:

If they're a melee type (BM/barb/sin), or grinding on melee types I bramble.

^This. But if in doubt, just ask, regardless of class.

LenieClarke wrote:

clerics don't want aggro, and psys have soul of vengeance (though it's not as if bramble hurts them any worse than SoV...) but i don't see why 'sins should complain about bramble, they're bound to take melee damage to some extent, and the bramble reflect should help them kill a little bit faster still.

After playing a sin a bit more, I do understand why sins don't always want bramble. It's great for when you're soloing and are one of the designated tanks, but if you're trying to help DD on a boss you know you can't tank and don't have a decent tank in squad, having bramble can make it a little harder to give aggro back to the tank.

That said, bramble itself doesn't hurt you, it's taking aggro in the first place that does it. Unfortunately, bramble makes a great scapegoat for people who don't understand aggro and pull when they shouldn't.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

If you have two BM's in squad, and no Barb, and one BM is a designated Tank, and the other isn't, for the LOVE OF THE GODDESS, DO NOT bramble the non-tank BM. >_<

Quite simply, what it comes down to, is that bramble on a cleric hurts the cleric in the long run.

Bramble on a Psy... Well... I generally don't bramble them anyway because they're squishy. And never ever bramble a cleric.

Bramble the cleric if you hate him/her, and want to cause a potential party wipe.

Bramble your entire party if you want to look like a n00b to everyone else.

There obviously are exceptions. If you have a freaking crazy cleric who likes tanking, or has a lot of HP, or is a LA/HA build, then by all means, bramble them. But from experience, clerics do NOT last long when they're getting meleed, and bramble invites a mob to keep meleeing them. I say this from experience. I have a HP charm on my cleric, and the only times it ever ticks is when I get heal aggro, or some nub veno brambles me in a BH (or the tank is fail, but that's another rant).

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you have two BM's in squad, and no Barb, and one BM is a designated Tank, and the other isn't, for the LOVE OF THE GODDESS, DO NOT bramble the non-tank BM. >_<

Quite simply, what it comes down to, is that bramble on a cleric hurts the cleric in the long run.

Bramble on a Psy... Well... I generally don't bramble them anyway because they're squishy. And never ever bramble a cleric.

Bramble the cleric if you hate him/her, and want to cause a potential party wipe.

Bramble your entire party if you want to look like a n00b to everyone else.

There obviously are exceptions. If you have a freaking crazy cleric who likes tanking, or has a lot of HP, or is a LA/HA build, then by all means, bramble them. But from experience, clerics do NOT last long when they're getting meleed, and bramble invites a mob to keep meleeing them. I say this from experience. I have a HP charm on my cleric, and the only times it ever ticks is when I get heal aggro, or some nub veno brambles me in a BH (or the tank is fail, but that's another rant).

Or, you know, you could let the cleric decide. I would think that they know how to handle themselves better than the veno. My uncharmed AA cleric loves bramble. It doesn't invite mobs to attack her, but it invites mobs to die faster.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

That really isn't how bramble works though.

Plausibly, the only time you are hit a SECOND time is with bramble applied.

Very very very good point on the brambling of secondary tanks though - only do it if you're sure they can survive and/or you're sure it'll wear off before the main boss.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That really isn't how bramble works though.

Plausibly, the only time you are hit a SECOND time is with bramble applied.

What? Please explain this.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Very very very good point on the brambling of secondary tanks though - only do it if you're sure they can survive and/or you're sure it'll wear off before the main boss.

If they truely are a secondary tank, then there's no harm in brambling them. The very definition of a tank is someone that can take the damage (theoretically they should be able to hold aggro, but with as much ping-pong as goes on these days, that's becoming more and more of a moot point.) A pure DD may not want bramble, as they can pull on accident. They really should learn to control their damage output, but this is becoming a lost art.

If it's really that big of an issue, we have this wonderful skill called purge.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What? Please explain this.

Bramble won't change the chance of the first hit, any more than golden bell will draw aggro.

But when the monster hits you, it reflects damage, and THAT draws aggro and can cause the mob to stay on you for a second hit.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If they truely are a secondary tank, then there's no harm in brambling them. The very definition of a tank is someone that can take the damage (theoretically they should be able to hold aggro, but with as much ping-pong as goes on these days, that's becoming more and more of a moot point.) A pure DD may not want bramble, as they can pull on accident. They really should learn to control their damage output, but this is becoming a lost art.

If it's really that big of an issue, we have this wonderful skill called purge.

Heh, can't say I ever thought of purging a teammate. It'd remove all the buffs they DO want and be a pain, but I guess it's an option.

The general rule of thumb I use:
Bramble the tank. Ask everyone else.
If everyone is silent, bramble the melee people.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Bramble won't change the chance of the first hit, any more than golden bell will draw aggro.

But when the monster hits you, it reflects damage, and THAT draws aggro and can cause the mob to stay on you for a second hit.

Ah, that makes much more sense than what I first read that to mean.
Although I wouldn't say that bramble causes the mob to stay. While it does generate some aggro, that aggro isn't much compared to just about any other skill. Really, one or two reflects from bramble should still be out matched by skills/attacks and it generally comes back to:

sleepcat wrote: »

I'll have to say though, other than in RBs, if the Cleric gets aggro long enough for bramble aggro to actually be a problem, there's something wrong with the squad.

Too often I see people act like bramble is an auto-attack Flesh Ream.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Heh, can't say I ever thought of purging a teammate. It'd remove all the buffs they DO want and be a pain, but I guess it's an option.

The general rule of thumb I use:
Bramble the tank. Ask everyone else.
If everyone is silent, bramble the melee people.

This is generally what I try to do, although I err on not brambling when people are silent. Silence could just mean that they're afk. If they qq about not being brambled, you can at least point to where you offered it.

Eoria - Harshlands

Traditionally, my bramble triage goes like this:

1. Always bramble tank.
2. Bramble secondary tanks as well.
3. Bramble others if they ask for it, but only if they're not squishy as hell.
4. Normally never ****ing bramble clerics unless they're tanking a phys boss.
5. Bramble everyone (including clerics) at bosses like Feng, Drum, and Soul Banisher because the AOE reflects.

b:surrender

Satalia - Heavens Tear

I've had Clerics beg me to bramble them..... high level ones normally, and, oddly, family members xD

I've had wizzes ask for a bramble in RB (at the very start).......trust me, they begged! At first I was like oh dear me for the Love of Your Health I won't....then after making them sign a disclaimer, I did it, and ....well.....it worked well for them when those first few little waves decide that a wiz looks like a tasty snack!

I've had very squishy BMs (lowish level) beg me for it when there's been a much higher 'tank' there, and I've refused.....then after they begged (why does everyone beg me??) I bramble and watch them die on next mob/boss 'cos they suddenly feel uber with a Demon Bramble on them

>.>

....running around saying 'HEAL ME! I got aggro!', or, in one very funny case, 'OMG get the mob off of me! It's killing me!'....


But anyways, I say each to his/her/it's own

If they beg/ask I do it.

I only ever really bramble myself when I'm in fox.


And boy, this thread is long .....