Bramble + Clerics = ???

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Meyki - Sanctuary wrote: »

Woow that's so stupid.

It is not as the damage will be reflected back to the source and guess what they will come and attack you.it is no different if I sent herc in with reflect on to lure a mob over away from the boss the boss will pick up on it.

I did't read that guide in full as I ma looking for thread posted by a Veno Player about this very subject.

Alphae - Lost City

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

It does to when you are going up to heal or or some else arrgroes with bramble on them.I did say they only time to use this is in werefox form or on trufsorm barbs in melee range.You use it for those that are up at the front line not midline or backline.It is no different with Hercs reflect and when luring with a herc you don't use reflect or all the mobs will start coming to you.

No I won't ask them to purge me I will ask them to go and get me a res scroll or 2

Read this as well. http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Venomancer_Dungeons

You either need to make yourself clearer or go level up your "6x veno" some more. I usually don't make those sorts of comments but this is getting ridiculous. It sounds like to me that you for some reason bramble is some sort of alpha male skill that suddenly makes all mobs go OMG GO KILL BRAMBLED CLERIC. I repeat, a mob has to MELEE BASH you for bramble to generate any aggro at all. If someone else has bramble on them and aggros a mob, I'd think you as a cleric would APPRECIATE it because it's that much more damage they're generating, and that much less chance you'll get heal aggro.

Why in the name of all that is holy would you demand a monetary reparation in the form of scrolls from a bad buff when the PERSON WHO CAN GET RID OF IT IS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. Just get over it, have the veno purge your buffs, and then rebuff.

And please do not post guides at me. I know how to handle myself in a dungeon.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

I found this thread by Paramedic particularly useful in explaining aggro. (I do disagree with a couple points, but for the most part, it's solid.)

The relevant bits to this discussion:

healing too close to 'unactivated' mobs willl wake them up and aggro on you

Note that it's the proximity, not bramble that causes aggro.

healing person that just 'activated' mob (didnt hit) will re-draw aggro on you immediately

healing person who hit mob just once (and stoped) may cause aggro heal too; im not able to tell you precisely how much you can heal.. Regular mobs don't switch aggro too fast - but it is easier to annoy bosses (this may happen when pulling).

also remember when person aggro group of mobs by hitting one, rest mobs from this group act like just 'activated'

This is precisely why you want others to be brambled. The mobs that are activated by proximity will hit the target and bramble will bite them back (assuming melee). The only way a cleric will get aggro is from healing too soon. Bramble causes a low amount of hate, so over healing can generate heal aggro. But still, having bramble on the cleric in this case does nothing.

The amount of hate that bramble generates from biting back is miniscule compared to the amount of hate generated from using skills.

If a cleric has aggro when they shouldn't, then something else went wrong; it isn't the fault of bramble. Some clerics like biting back, others don't. In most cases it's common courteousy to ask if they want it. Saying never or always for the entirety of one class doesn't cut it.

Yes, having a cleric brambled will create more hate towards them once something starts melee attacking them. However, you have two options here:

1. Try to get the mob off the cleric.
The cleric shouldn't be attacking in this case and there should be a second tank/DD/someone attacking whatever is attacking the cleric. If people are paying attention, the mob shouldn't have been hitting the cleric long (if it even manages to land a first hit), and minimal attacks should get it off. If the mob is sitting there hammering on the cleric, you have bigger problems than the cleric's bramble whittling down it's health.

2. Cleric helps take out the mob as fast as possible.
This is generally when the cleric could otherwise handle the mob on their own or with a little help. In this case, the cleric actually becomes a tank themselves, and as said before, tanks should be brambled.

---

Saying to bramble or not bramble the whole class 100% of the time is flat out wrong.

Saying that being brambled will automatically give you aggro is flat out wrong.

Edit: Ninja'd by Alphae >.<

Meyki - Sanctuary

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

It is not as the damage will be reflected back to the source and guess what they will come and attack you.it is no different if I sent herc in with reflect on to lure a mob over away from the boss the boss will pick up on it.

I did't read that guide in full as I ma looking for thread posted by a Veno Player about this very subject.

Yeah, i meant this: "No I won't ask them to purge me I will ask them to go and get me a res scroll or 2"

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Saying to bramble or not bramble the whole class 100% of the time is flat out wrong.

I think you're splitting hairs here. The most basic of squad duties, for not just veno but any other class, is to keep the Cleric alive. We all know this. Yes, likely there may be some scenarios it could be convenient to Bramble, such as a second or higher level Cleric tanking, phys AoE, etc. But in the overwhelming majority of scenarios Bramble shouldn't benefit the Cleric at all (he/she really shouldn't be getting hit with a half competent squad) and Bramble may mean a delay of a few seconds in getting aggro off him/her (say by using a pet or AoE which doesn't always work fast enough) which could be disastrous and potentially lead to a squad wipe. Even Ironwood or Lucky will not always gain aggro from a char which has reflected attacks for more than a few seconds.

Not Brambling a Cleric is unlikely to loose the squad much, it will at worst mean a fight may go for some seconds longer. Bramble however is more likely to backfire, ever been on a squad in which someone accidentally aggroes a couple of Catacomb Dragons while fighting LoP? Yeah, i'll admit to exceptions but outside a very specific set of circumstances, upwards of 90% of the time, Brambling the Cleric is not a good idea. And when you do, it should only be because you're absolutely sure it is in everyone's best interest. I would say when in doubt to either ask or don't.

Bramble is a short duration buff which is a Veno's duty to constantly re-apply every time it runs out, i personally keep track of this by Brambling myself. When i say always to Bramble Barbs and BMs i don't mean it in a sense that allows for no exceptions. An off-tank unfamiliar with an instance that keeps running into groups of mobs, that really aren't in the way, is more of a danger when Brambled. People go in and out of the rotation for who's getting Brambled, and just as you may realize it is inconvenient to buff one of the Barbs or BMs in the group, you may at some point decide a DD, such as an Archer, is in fact doing enough of the tanking Bramble would be a benefit. Clerics will only rarely factor into this, unless level difference allows them to fulfill a different squad role, and you will most of the time Bramble them only once or twice, not keep them continuously Brambled.

If the squad has just assembled on an instance lobby, you NEVER bramble the Cleric in the same default manner in which you do HA melees. Even a Cleric 20 levels higher than the rest of the squad you should ask if he/she wants to be Brambled. And if we are going to get picky about this, you should at least inform them they're being brambled at phys AoE bosses and not ninja the buff on them, which is easy to miss little before a boss fight while everyone's getting ready. Why? Because if the boss fight goes for less than the buff's duration (or you re-apply at some point) then the Cleric may move on to regular work right after and not realize that a Sin's Knife Throw or a Wizzie's Gush may not be enough to get aggro off him right away... Which could lead to a small miscalculation that could trigger a squad wipe.

Yes, i realize this may seem unlikely, but in truth we could probably keep a full (competent) squad Brambled and not run into any trouble because of it in a string of a hundred runs. We base safe and efficient gameplay on small percentages and worst case scenarios. I hope i'm not coming off as hostile (it's certainly not my intent) but i do feel this is an important point to make since most Venos on the field don't really make these distinctions, and even at my range it is not uncommon to see Venos Bramble Clerics on BH runs, in which no benefit is to be gained and the increased risk is multiplied by the likelyhood of as much as half the squad having little knowledge of how to properly play their class. So allow me to rephrase. You never Bramble Clerics as a matter of course. Never.

Alphae - Lost City

I've brambled them before when they've tanked low level FBs.

OWN b:infuriated.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

I've brambled them before when they've tanked low level FBs.

OWN b:infuriated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbDv2xfgEac

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think you're splitting hairs here. The most basic of squad duties, for not just veno but any other class, is to keep the Cleric alive. We all know this. Yes, likely there may be some scenarios it could be convenient to Bramble, such as a second or higher level Cleric tanking, phys AoE, etc. But in the overwhelming majority of scenarios Bramble shouldn't benefit the Cleric at all (he/she really shouldn't be getting hit with a half competent squad) and Bramble may mean a delay of a few seconds in getting aggro off him/her (say by using a pet or AoE which doesn't always work fast enough) which could be disastrous and potentially lead to a squad wipe. Even Ironwood or Lucky will not always gain aggro from a char which has reflected attacks for more than a few seconds.

The red text is what I was getting at. My beef is with people that say to never bramble any cleric under any circumstance (and they do exist and can be quite vocal).

The rest of it was kind of what I was saying, but from a more defensive standpoint. Generally, a cleric shouldn't be getting attacked. But with a half competent squad, they won't be getting attacked for very long, so why not let the mob take a little extra damage? (I used to watch this very closely. If the it was hard to pull a mob off a cleric, I wouldn't bramble them again for the run unless they specifically asked for it. Even then I would sometimes "forget".)

This is where I leave it up to the individual- if they want bramble, they get it, otherwise they don't. I know some clerics who love it like crack. They know what their character can take better than I can, so why deny them something that helps them?

Not Brambling a Cleric is unlikely to loose the squad much, it will at worst mean a fight may go for some seconds longer. Bramble however is more likely to backfire, ever been on a squad in which someone accidentally aggroes a couple of Catacomb Dragons while fighting LoP? Yeah, i'll admit to exceptions but outside a very specific set of circumstances, upwards of 90% of the time, Brambling the Cleric is not a good idea. And when you do, it should only be because you're absolutely sure it is in everyone's best interest. I would say when in doubt to either ask or don't.

With a good squad, it shouldn't matter. Brambling will speed things up a little bit (and think of back to back to back farming runs- that extra damage really adds up). On bosses or on mobs. I've seen high level parties rush through caves where the cleric tanked melee mobs by choice (all the while keeping everyone's hp up.) In those cases, barmble made the cleric more effective because they could take out the mobs faster. I've also known clerics to aoe grind with barbs/bms and they help round up the melee mobs. Bramble helps them keep the mobs longer so they can pull more in getting them to the tank. I wouldn't say 90% is accurate, a brambled cleric is certainly effective.

And yes, I've accidentally aggro'd Dragons in 1-1. It wasn't fun, but it was managable. My cleric was brambled and in BB, aggro fell to her, the mobs ran, and we caught them after she got hit once.

Bramble is a short duration buff which is a Veno's duty to constantly re-apply every time it runs out, i personally keep track of this by Brambling myself. When i say always to Bramble Barbs and BMs i don't mean it in a sense that allows for no exceptions. An off-tank unfamiliar with an instance that keeps running into groups of mobs, that really aren't in the way, is more of a danger when Brambled. People go in and out of the rotation for who's getting Brambled, and just as you may realize it is inconvenient to buff one of the Barbs or BMs in the group, you may at some point decide a DD, such as an Archer, is in fact doing enough of the tanking Bramble would be a benefit. Clerics will only rarely factor into this, unless level difference allows them to fulfill a different squad role, and you will most of the time Bramble them only once or twice, not keep them continuously Brambled.

Side note about tracking bramble by brambling yourself: Using Alpha Male or Demon Roar will overwrite bramble and wear off quickly, so in higher levels, you'll have to watch it more closely.

Definitely agree with you that whoever is tanking should be brambled. (Although the caveat to this is that they have to be able to tank, ie take damage, so a hotshot squishy doesn't get bramble).

I also agree that you should switch who is on the bramble list. Although, I might add that an extra bramble here and there isn't a bad thing. Venos run pretty darn fast even if you aren't demon, so stopping to refresh a bramble before it's run out won't separate you from the pack. It also gives you a little bit of chi, which is less that you have to grind up. If you don't mind burning through all your mp, chi grinding with bramble is much faster than chi grinding with heal pet due to the channel time.

There are also times when an underlevelled cleric being brambled can be beneficial. I ran FF with a level 79 cleric once who wanted to be brambled on the pulls. The barb wasn't great at keeping aggro and the cleric ended up getting hit. That bramble helped to add enough extra damage so that we could kill the mobs before they killed the cleric. (Absolute domain may have been involved, but it was the cleric who cast it, and they asked for bramble to begin with.) -- Point being, you can't just make assumptions and apply them to an entire class. That's like saying all venos know how to amp (they should, but that's a completely different discussion.)

If the squad has just assembled on an instance lobby, you NEVER bramble the Cleric in the same default manner in which you do HA melees. Even a Cleric 20 levels higher than the rest of the squad you should ask if he/she wants to be Brambled. And if we are going to get picky about this, you should at least inform them they're being brambled at phys AoE bosses and not ninja the buff on them, which is easy to miss little before a boss fight while everyone's getting ready. Why? Because if the boss fight goes for less than the buff's duration (or you re-apply at some point) then the Cleric may move on to regular work right after and not realize that a Sin's Knife Throw or a Wizzie's Gush may not be enough to get aggro off him right away... Which could lead to a small miscalculation that could trigger a squad wipe.

I never said to bramble clerics by default at the beginning of an instance. There are some that I do that with, but that's because I know them well, I know they want it, and I know they can manage it. Every other time, I ask. I've even gone as far to ask a 102 cleric if she wanted bramble at the beginning of an fb19. Not meant to be an insult, just something that I know people can be touchy about.

As far as ninja buffing, it normally wears off before there's anything else to fight. If it doesn't and they haven't commented on it, I take it upon myself to make sure I stop mobs if a cleric gets heal aggro (moreso than normal anyway). It rarely last too long though. Assuming we're talking about TT bosses (which is the only place I auto-buff clerics), after the boss you have to pick up the mats and bank them, which with PUGs can take awhile. Then there's usually a bit of running involved. 1-1: end of dungeon. 1-2/3 drum: run back up the hall, talk about if you're going to rush or not. 1-2/3 SB: backtrack then up through the balls' corridor. 2-X feng: navigating corridors...I haven't had it become an issue for me.

Yes, i realize this may seem unlikely, but in truth we could probably keep a full (competent) squad Brambled and not run into any trouble because of it in a string of a hundred runs. We base safe and efficient gameplay on small percentages and worst case scenarios. I hope i'm not coming off as hostile (it's certainly not my intent) but i do feel this is an important distinction to make since most Venos on the field don't really make these distinctions, and even at my range it is not uncommon to see Venos Bramble Clerics on BH runs, in which no benefit is to be gained and the increased risk is multiplied by the likelyhood of as much as half the squad having little knowledge of how to properly play their class. So allow me to rephrase. You never Bramble Clerics as a matter of course. Never.

Didn't think you were being hostile. These are the veno forums afterall, so this is a very civilized convo in this place. I didn't mean to come off in that way either, I just have a differing opinion.

I guess it would be prudent to mention that I bramble clerics more in the higher levels than I did in the lower levels. The main thing I wanted to drive home is that pretty much everything in this game is situational. The setting, the character, the internet connection...everything has a influence on how things should be played.

As you have stated yourself, don't make assumptions; [generally] ask first.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

You either need to make yourself clearer or go level up your "6x veno" some more. I usually don't make those sorts of comments but this is getting ridiculous. It sounds like to me that you for some reason bramble is some sort of alpha male skill that suddenly makes all mobs go OMG GO KILL BRAMBLED CLERIC. I repeat, a mob has to MELEE BASH you for bramble to generate any aggro at all. If someone else has bramble on them and aggros a mob, I'd think you as a cleric would APPRECIATE it because it's that much more damage they're generating, and that much less chance you'll get heal aggro.

Why in the name of all that is holy would you demand a monetary reparation in the form of scrolls from a bad buff when the PERSON WHO CAN GET RID OF IT IS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. Just get over it, have the veno purge your buffs, and then rebuff.

And please do not post guides at me. I know how to handle myself in a dungeon.

Have you actually gone out and tested this gone up and hit a mob with just your sword and then stop and let them keep hitting you.There was one Veno here that said not do this put Bramble on others and it was posted in the General Discussion forum for which I am trying to find now with the help of the staff.This has happened to me several times in bh 51 no if a Veno puts brambe on me.I will want a restart.

You don't like it when Clerics go around buffing you in the persistent world do you only time I do it is when asked.I am not just talking but Wizards as well they are more squishier then any castor classes.I will go lvl up my Veno once fineshed with my Cleric.I would rather get the Psychic buff over bramble.

Darth_Puggy - Archosaur

I've been told you should only Bramble the tank. Bramble helps to draw aggro and you don't want your healer grabbing aggro.

sleepcat

I'll have to say though, other than in RBs, if the Cleric gets aggro long enough for bramble aggro to actually be a problem, there's something wrong with the squad.

That being said, as long as I see that you have at least a certain amount of HP and defense according to your gear, I'd bramble you.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

Have you actually gone out and tested this gone up and hit a mob with just your sword and then stop and let them keep hitting you.There was one Veno here that said not do this put Bramble on others and it was posted in the General Discussion forum for which I am trying to find now with the help of the staff.This has happened to me several times in bh 51 no if a Veno puts brambe on me.I will want a restart.

I commonly bramble myself and aggro a mob so it will hit me. It's the only way I can tame low level pets these days.

The point we've been making is that it isn't bramble itself that causes the aggro. Bramble just helps you retain it. You said yourself in this case to hit it with your sword. Do you think the mob is mad at you because you have a spiky hula hoop or because you poked it?

You are well within your rights to not want bramble. No one has been arguing that. But to say you want res scrolls if someone buffs you is unrealistic, especially since the one who cast the buff can erase it as well.

You don't like it when Clerics go around buffing you in the persistent world do you only time I do it is when asked.I am not just talking but Wizards as well they are more squishier then any castor classes.I will go lvl up my Veno once fineshed with my Cleric.I would rather get the Psychic buff over bramble.

How is a cleric buffing relevant to this discussion? As long as they don't overwrite a powder, I'm cool with it. On my cleric, I prefer to be brambled if I'm out grinding. I'm soloing the mobs anyway, so any little bit of damage helps. (Usually if something manages to melee me, something went wrong anyway.)

It's the same thing with wizzies. Up to personal preference. I've had them want or not want bramble.

Just an FYI, soul of vengeance and bramble aren't mutually exclusive. Plus, many people don't like SoV because while it does reflect all damage, it drains your mp to do so. Bramble doesn't affect your mp one iota.

sleepcat wrote:

I'll have to say though, other than in RBs, if the Cleric gets aggro long enough for bramble aggro to actually be a problem, there's something wrong with the squad.

This. Thank you.

Alphae - Lost City

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

Have you actually gone out and tested this gone up and hit a mob with just your sword and then stop and let them keep hitting you.There was one Veno here that said not do this put Bramble on others and it was posted in the General Discussion forum for which I am trying to find now with the help of the staff.This has happened to me several times in bh 51 no if a Veno puts brambe on me.I will want a restart.

You don't like it when Clerics go around buffing you in the persistent world do you only time I do it is when asked.I am not just talking but Wizards as well they are more squishier then any castor classes.I will go lvl up my Veno once fineshed with my Cleric.I would rather get the Psychic buff over bramble.

Then you need to make yourself better understood. It's clear that more than one person thought the same thing I did. Of course you're going to generate aggro if you stand and let the mob bash into your brambled self. You made it sound like just having aggro somehow made mobs magically aggro you out of thin air. And I repeat that restarting a BH because you don't want a veno bramble buff is absolutely absurd. You're wasting everyone's time and being a drama queen. Just have her duel and purge you, and then rebuff. And please, get over it.

And actually, most of the time I am incredibly appreciative of cleric buffs. If I am using a powder, which I very very rarely do, I keep track of who's in the area and PM clerics coming through to please not HP/MP buff me. Most clerics say "I know" but I'd rather have that then waste a powder I just put on. If you choose not to buff people, be my guest, but if you're incapable of reading their buff list to know they already have an HP/MP regen buff on and NOT buffing over it, I'm very sorry. And most players should KNOW what the HP/MP buff animation looks like so they don't yell at clerics unnecessarily.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I commonly bramble myself and aggro a mob so it will hit me. It's the only way I can tame low level pets these days.

The point we've been making is that it isn't bramble itself that causes the aggro. Bramble just helps you retain it. You said yourself in this case to hit it with your sword. Do you think the mob is mad at you because you have a spiky hula hoop or because you poked it?

You are well within your rights to not want bramble. No one has been arguing that. But to say you want res scrolls if someone buffs you is unrealistic, especially since the one who cast the buff can erase it as well.

I ma not talking about my Cleric here as I tried this on my Veno and why do you need it to tame lower lvl pets.When I die I don't like going back to town and losing 10% experience and having to fly back.i don't like it when someone just waiting there for me to res because maybe they had bramble on as they can't go to town themselves.

How is a cleric buffing relevant to this discussion? As long as they don't overwrite a powder, I'm cool with it. On my cleric, I prefer to be brambled if I'm out grinding. I'm soloing the mobs anyway, so any little bit of damage helps. (Usually if something manages to melee me, something went wrong anyway.)

It's the same thing with wizzies. Up to personal preference. I've had them want or not want bramble.

Just an FYI, soul of vengeance and bramble aren't mutually exclusive. Plus, many people don't like SoV because while it does reflect all damage, it drains your mp to do so. Bramble doesn't affect your mp one iota.



This. Thank you.

We Clerics ask if you want a buff or not.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

I ma not talking about my Cleric here as I tried this on my Veno and why do you need it to tame lower lvl pets.When I die I don't like going back to town and losing 10% experience and having to fly back.i don't like it when someone just waiting there for me to res because maybe they had bramble on as they can't go to town themselves.

I doesn't matter what the class is. Bramble works the same on anyone you cast it on...

I tame low level pets to level them for friends and for sales, although the reasoning is irrelevant. Aggro mechanics work the same for any level mob.

Being brambled doesn't guarentee that you're going to die. Yes, it sucks to lose 10% xp and have to fly back. But there are angels and scrolls for those sorts of things. But really, unless you're level 100+, the xp penalty of an occasional death isn't that bad. If you are dying enough that it's an issue, maybe something else is wrong.

Nothing is stopping other people from carrying scrolls as well, except maybe their own selfishness. Nothing is stopping them from going to town as well. Still in this case, bramble isn't necessarily what caused them to die. They either got too close and aggro'd something the shouldn't have by proximity, hit something too hard and stole aggro, or threw themselves down to save another character. I've died a few times myself by pulling mobs off clerics (who, by the way, were brambled and didn't get a chance to melee the cleric). If it benefits the squad that I res immediately with a scroll instead of waiting for the cleric to revive me, then I do it; or I town if a scroll is on cooldown and I can get back in time.

But regardless, it isn't bramble that caused the death in any case.

In these days when people can get to 100 in a week or less, there's no reason to complain about xp loss. (Pre 100, at least).

We Clerics ask if you want a buff or not.

Actually, most don't. Especially in the lower levels.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

You don't like it when Clerics go around buffing you in the persistent world do you

actually, i love it when they do that, and make a point of thanking them for it. cleric MP regen/mag damage buffs on my casters are especially helpful.

I would rather get the Psychic buff over bramble.

which one, soul of vengeance? you do realize that that one's MORE aggressive than bramble, correct?

(SoV works on ranged and magic attacks, not just melee attacks like bramble, which means it procs more often, especially on a caster class; and SoV --- unless it's the sage version --- drains YOUR mana every time it procs, unlike bramble. the damage it does to mobs generates aggro just the same as bramble does, too.)

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

We Clerics ask if you want a buff or not.

Considering the number of times a passing cleric has overwritten my BM or assassin's life powder... sadly, that is not the case.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I doesn't matter what the class is. Bramble works the same on anyone you cast it on...

I tame low level pets to level them for friends and for sales, although the reasoning is irrelevant. Aggro mechanics work the same for any level mob.

Being brambled doesn't guarentee that you're going to die. Yes, it sucks to lose 10% xp and have to fly back. But there are angels and scrolls for those sorts of things. But really, unless you're level 100+, the xp penalty of an occasional death isn't that bad. If you are dying enough that it's an issue, maybe something else is wrong.

Nothing is stopping other people from carrying scrolls as well, except maybe their own selfishness. Nothing is stopping them from going to town as well. Still in this case, bramble isn't necessarily what caused them to die. They either got too close and aggro'd something the shouldn't have by proximity, hit something too hard and stole aggro, or threw themselves down to save another character. I've died a few times myself by pulling mobs off clerics (who, by the way, were brambled and didn't get a chance to melee the cleric). If it benefits the squad that I res immediately with a scroll instead of waiting for the cleric to revive me, then I do it; or I town if a scroll is on cooldown and I can get back in time.

But regardless, it isn't bramble that caused the death in any case.

In these days when people can get to 100 in a week or less, there's no reason to complain about xp loss. (Pre 100, at least).



Actually, most don't. Especially in the lower levels.

It is only 60% and last for 10 min at lvl 10 so it isn't worth casting it on everyone.

That is nice that you like to do it while taming pets I don't use it as I just go up wack it with my sword and tame.

Being brambled is more less a case that you will die especially bh51 when no one wants to clear out the shrunkin archers.Why should I buy GA for someone else mistake?

They are to cheap to carry scrolls as a they expect a Cleric to just res them.I hate losing xp while trying to get to certain lvl it is why I don't res non Clerics on a wq to give them feel what it like going back to town.Bramble has caused my death to so many occasions then when not brambled only thing is you got a pet.I ma responsible for the entire sqd.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

That is nice that you like to do it while taming pets I don't use it as I just go up wack it with my sword and tame.

level up some more. eventually, you'll be one-shot killing the really low-level mobs even when you're unarmed. if for some reason i wanted to tame a level 8 sawfly, i wouldn't even bother actually attacking it; i'd bramble myself, throw a tame pet to aggro it, wait for it to half-kill itself against my brambles, then tame pet again. otherwise, the risk's too great i'd just flatten it.

Being brambled is more less a case that you will die especially bh51 when no one wants to clear out the shrunkin archers.

remind me if i'm wrong, but i don't believe the schrunchkin archers in 51 patrol around at all, do they? don't aggro them. bramble won't aggro them for you, unless you get close enough to grab their anger anyways.

yeah, there're lots of mobs in 51 that do patrol most annoyingly, and a squad has to stick together in there for mutual defense against them; even a mid-5x veno can have trouble coping with those wanderers on her own. but that's equally true for all classes excepting possibly barbs, so a squad that doesn't guard their cleric(s) against that known risk is pretty fail to begin with.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

Being brambled is more less a case that you will die especially bh51 when no one wants to clear out the shrunkin archers.Why should I buy GA for someone else mistake?

Bramble has absolutely no effect on archer type mobs. You're getting heal aggro because somebody that activated them didn't hit them, which has absolutely no relationship to whether or not you're brambled.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

It is only 60% and last for 10 min at lvl 10 so it isn't worth casting it on everyone.

Mine is demon, so it's 75% and lasts 15 minutes, making it more worthwhile in most cases. You can also spin it as doing a little extra damage for 10 minutes, so yeah, it can be worth it for everyone.

That is nice that you like to do it while taming pets I don't use it as I just go up wack it with my sword and tame.

I unequipped everything and punched the mob in human form. It died from one hit. Bramble scales with the damage it does, so even if bramble crits, it doesn't 1-hit kill it.

Being brambled is more less a case that you will die especially bh51 when no one wants to clear out the shrunkin archers.Why should I buy GA for someone else mistake?

Umm, bramble has a null effect with archer type mobs, since they don't do melee damage. So it has the same effect as a sin bloodpainting a cleric. There are no "shrunkin" mobs in 51 anyway; they're all of the mistrealm or dustwraith variety. Assuming you mean Shrunchkins, those are in 39, and are also ranged.

As a cleric, you have a choice whether to heal someone or not. No one is pushing the button for you. You have the option of letting someone die. It'd be your mistake to heal them if you would get heal aggro on more mobs than you can handle. But regardless, bramble has no effect with this situation.

And if you're talking about the last 6 mobs on the way to wyv, they're very easily avoidable. If you have trouble with those, you'll hate skipping mobs in 59 where they can be harder to slip past.

They are to cheap to carry scrolls as a they expect a Cleric to just res them.

Many people are cheap. Get used to it. You have a responsibility to yourself to make sure that you can get your job done and stay alive. If the squad proves to be fail and gets you killed, you let them die. If they're fail enough, they'll die in a place where you can't safely res them. Then you say tough luck, go to town.

I hate losing xp while trying to get to certain lvl it is why I don't res non Clerics on a wq to give them feel what it like going back to town.

If you're doing bh's pre 100 and wq on top of that, don't complain about losing xp. If it's that big of a deal to you, get angels. You can make them with tokens and tokens are cheap these days. Do you really think that clerics are the only class that knows what it feels like to town? Believe it or not, there are plenty of times when you have a squad without a cleric, especially on the world map. Plus, if you run TT and do any rushing, if you wipe or are past certain points, someone else has to town as well to get the cleric back to the group.

Bramble has caused my death to so many occasions

I highly doubt it was bramble that killed you and not some other failure.

then when not brambled only thing is you got a pet.

Umm, what? Are you comparing clerics being brambled? Venos? Venos have more skills than summon pet, you know.

I ma responsible for the entire sqd.

So is everyone else.

Stunners - responsible to keep things stunned and to help with debuffs and crowd control.
Tank - responsible to keep aggro and take hits
DDs - responsible to do massive damage while not stealing aggro too much and making it harder for the healers
Healers - watch people's hp/debuffs, make sure people stay alive
Luring - make sure you grab the intended target and the intended target only

It's a team effort. Everyone has to pull their weight. Everyone is responsible for not pulling a fail move.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Bramble has absolutely no effect on archer type mobs. You're getting heal aggro because somebody that activated them didn't hit them, which has absolutely no relationship to whether or not you're brambled.

It does if other attacker have aggroed thme and pulled them your way and being slow runner cost us our death.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Mine is demon, so it's 75% and lasts 15 minutes, making it more worthwhile in most cases. You can also spin it as doing a little extra damage for 10 minutes, so yeah, it can be worth it for everyone.

I didn't say anything about demon or sage did I.

I unequipped everything and punched the mob in human form. It died from one hit. Bramble scales with the damage it does, so even if bramble crits, it doesn't 1-hit kill it.

Yeah I sometimes punch things but not with bramble on.

Umm, bramble has a null effect with archer type mobs, since they don't do melee damage. So it has the same effect as a sin bloodpainting a cleric. There are no "shrunkin" mobs in 51 anyway; they're all of the mistrealm or dustwraith variety. Assuming you mean Shrunchkins, those are in 39, and are also ranged.

Yes It does shrunkins are 50

As a cleric, you have a choice whether to heal someone or not. No one is pushing the button for you. You have the option of letting someone die. It'd be your mistake to heal them if you would get heal aggro on more mobs than you can handle. But regardless, bramble has no effect with this situation.

I need to keep the barb healed up if he has a charm and in trueform they run faster than I.

Many people are cheap. Get used to it. You have a responsibility to yourself to make sure that you can get your job done and stay alive. If the squad proves to be fail and gets you killed, you let them die. If they're fail enough, they'll die in a place where you can't safely res them. Then you say tough luck, go to town.

I do it would be nice to have the way cleared for you.

Umm, what? Are you comparing clerics being brambled? Venos? Venos have more skills than summon pet, you know.

You got a pet to help defend you.

So is everyone else.

Not as as much as myself.

This is where I got all the information from and it is posted by a Veno telling other Veno what to do.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=385181

-Reivi.

9. Make sure the tank always has bramble.

10. Make sure the cleric never has bramble.

11. Don't cast bramble on everyone.
The bold parts are what I am talking about.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

It does if other attacker have aggroed thme and pulled them your way and being slow runner cost us our death.

if somebody else aggros the mob, the mob will be beating on the somebody else, not you. hence the brambles, they will do nothing.

if you get heal aggro from healing somebody who aggro'd the mob, i frankly think it's the job of that person to get that aggro back off of you. brambled or not. if they fail to do so, they might not deserve healing.

I need to keep the barb healed up if he has a charm and in trueform they run faster than I.

if the barb runs out of healing range and won't stop to let you catch up, whose fault is it the barb doesn't get healed? why, it's the barb's fault then. and charmed or not has nothing to do with it --- if somebody's so all-fired wanting to keep their charm from ticking, that's all the more reason they should be staying carefully closer to the cleric.

Alphae - Lost City

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is where I got all the information from and it is posted by a Veno telling other Veno what to do.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=385181

-Reivi.

9. Make sure the tank always has bramble.

10. Make sure the cleric never has bramble.

11. Don't cast bramble on everyone.
The bold parts are what I am talking about.

You need to learn how to interpret a walkthrough, not follow it blindly. Of all the classes, I think venos are the least "walkthrough-ready" because there are so many ways to play the class, and so many paths you can take.

The bottom line is that you should never stress about being brambled. If you aren't in a squad that's a total failure, it won't matter one iota. If you're in a squad that can't pull a mob off you from a few whacks of L10 bramble damage, then you'd probably die anyway as your squad is a complete and total failure.

Also, if you get heal aggro, ever try kiting? If the mob is on you, it would stand to reason that it's not attacking anyone else, therefore kiting should cause no issues for anyone else. And frankly, if the mob is on you, you should kite anyway. You can rez others, but others can't rez you.

Kali - Raging Tide

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then you are noob as well as it attracks aggro from mobs even on yourself.You only use Bramble in werefox and on trueform Barbs.

Dont worry, Im aware of that fact. I just stated the fact that it does not reduce the defense, since that was the question. b:kiss

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Yes.But that is all coming from a Veno player which is where I got my advice from.Yes.i know there are lots of failed squads who want to get the bh over and done with.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

It does if other attacker have aggroed thme and pulled them your way and being slow runner cost us our death.

Actually, if someone else has aggro'd a mob and you haven't done anything, you won't get aggro. Unless of course the other person dies and you happen to be positioned correctly. Proximity to an aggro'd mob doesn't guarentee that you'll have aggro.

I didn't say anything about demon or sage did I.

Nope, but you did bring in personal experiences. I mentioned this because my version of bramble would make it "worse" in the way you're arguing it and I have yet to have a problem with it.

Yeah I sometimes punch things but not with bramble on.

So you, a magic class, will sit and melee something?

Yes It does shrunkins are 50

There are no shrunchkins in fb51.

Shrunchkins: world; fb39
Mistrealm: archer (bh51); magus (bh51)

Screenie or reputible link if you care to debate it further please.

I need to keep the barb healed up if he has a charm and in trueform they run faster than I.

Charms don't affect running speed. Having a charmed barb actually means that them running faster is less of an issue because they have a nice little self heal when they hit <50% hp.

If the barb runs off lone wolf style, fine. He can tank it or he can die. If he's out of range of your heals, he needs to heal himself. The point still stands that no one is forcing you to run into a suicide situation. It's your job as a cleric to recognize those and avoid them.

I do it would be nice to have the way cleared for you.

If you plan on running higher level instances, get used to skipping mobs or wining (and I mean the booze here, not the complaining that I tend to see here). Have you ever heard of rushing in TT? It's common. It saves time and is much more cost effective to the squad. If you can't be bothered to hug the wall to avoid 6 stationary mobs in a low level bh, you'll have lots of problems in the future.

You got a pet to help defend you.

Are you saying that if a veno draws aggro, the mob will attack her pet? Quite to the contrary, in most situations it's a bit of work to transfer aggro back on to the pet. Many venos will just tank the mob themselves and take it out. In this case, the pet doesn't do any defending, just added DD.

Clerics aren't by any chance weak. If you have something attacking you and you need to stay alive, you make sure the mob gets taken down (assuming it can kill you).

If you're in a squad and you have to focus on healing the tank, you should get a DD or second tank to kill the mob. (Very rarely will this happen when not during a boss fight).

If no one will help you, you are forced to leave the tank on their own and deal with the mob yourself. It's better to have a dead tank and restart the boss fight than to have a dead cleric and then a dead tank and then restart the boss fight.

Clerics are perfectly capable of taking things down on their own. If it's magic, you should have no trouble tanking it with a couple of heals. If it's melee, you have sleeps and seals to get you a chance to run away. Plus, you have plume shell which will help you take a couple extra hits, wings of protection can be cast on yourself as well. You shouldn't have any trouble taking down a mob in bh.

Not as as much as myself.

If it's too much responsibility, then why play a cleric? It's actually fairly viable to play without a cleric in a good portion of this game. The trick is for everyone in the squad to be responsible. I won't deny that clerics get blamed (rather vocally) for the catestrophic, but if you really look at it, it's not always the cleric's fault (more often than not, it isn't their fault). It's up to you to smile and nod and go about your merry way.

This is where I got all the information from and it is posted by a Veno telling other Veno what to do.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=385181

-Reivi.

9. Make sure the tank always has bramble.

10. Make sure the cleric never has bramble.

11. Don't cast bramble on everyone.
The bold parts are what I am talking about.

Yes.But that is all coming from a Veno player which is where I got my advice from.

Are we not venos ourselves? It's nice to see that you've gotten your input from a guide while the rest of us have been commenting from our own experience.

Check back through what I wrote. I never once said bramble all clerics all the time. My issue is with the point #10 that you've quoted. I know many clerics that want to be brambled. It's an insult and a hinderance to not bramble them.

Take comfort in the fact that if in the ever ill begotten chance that you and I were squaded, I wouldn't bramble you. You obviously can't take it.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

9. Make sure the tank always has bramble.

Just a quick side note: I can think of a couple places where you actaully don't want to have the tank brambled. There are certain bosses in TT where you will have the tank fighting a boss who spawn adds. The cleric is usually positioned in a place where the bosses/adds can't reach them. If you have your tank free of bramble, the mobs will aggro on the tank, switch to the cleric because of heal aggro, not be able to hit the cleric due to their range, and reset. It's somewhat amusing to watch the adds bounce around chaotically.

This is just one of many reasons why guides are guides and not the end all rule book for life.

Sarieanna - Raging Tide

Just Follow:

1. If they ask for it, go for it.
2. If they are high level, ask first to make sure it's okay. If yes? Go for it. If no? obvi b:victory
3. If you ask and they say no? Dont do it.

Bramble is beneficial but I find that I aggro more easily.
Hope this helps b:cute

Manakel - Lost City

I always ask for bramble on my cleric. If he gets aggro he's gonna kill the mob himself- so bramble will make that happen just a little quicker. (also, he has more HP than anyone up to 7-10 more than his level except barbs and tank-build bms. So he can take a few hits.)