A question to the cleric population

Jade_san - Dreamweaver

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »

"Don't heal me heal the squad"

That took 1 second to type lol (:

I usually get don't heal me heal the tank. I just heal whoever needs it and try to keep up. It happened the other day with a FB59 squad I was in. The psy accident was too close to the last boss and pulled whole mob, we and no veno or tank but bms and dd, i was doing bb until the little bugger were killed then i did single heals we were able to live through it. I usually get the got teams tho sometimes the bad but what can you do

/Fox - Harshlands28

maybe the cleric needed to use best peformance because their laptop/computer lags without it and they couldnt see that you were using the skill

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

If aggro is a mess, and a dd dies... call it mean but alot of time I'll leave them dead for a while to let the barb set aggro for a bit.

Boots_Elf - Sanctuary

Flickerfae - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm going to add another point to the 'clerics don't watch animations' tally.


Also, we watch 5 HP bars.

Also, we watch 5 status effect sets in case someone needs a quick purify, or if buffs need to be restacked.

Also, we watch for roaming mobs.

Also, we keep an eye on where the other members are, in case someone wanders out of heal range or into a set of said wandering mobs.

Also, we check the chat box, in case someone has a special request or needs to afk or whatever.

And, oh yeah, we need to glance at our own bars every now and then, just in case we catch damage we didn't expect.

YOUR MY HERO!!! This is exactly what i was thinking....

Loastuar - Heavens Tear

Lupumid - Sanctuary wrote: »

So yesterday i was in a BH59 with 2 sins and 2 archers. Of course aggro was a mess, so in one particularly big pull(annoying walking mobs at glutt) , the sins stole aggro because assist attacking is for nubs. So since they were dropping like a rock, I invoke to let the cleric heal, yet she didn't. This isn't the first time it happened, every cleric seems to think i invoke for the ugly yellow Buddha lookin thing flailing above my head. I use invoke so the cleric doesn't have to heal me, and we don't end up with a meat market on the ground. I mean yeah the idiots should be assist attacking, so they deserve to die, but it waste our time and mana for you to res them and us rebuff them.

So my question is, why do so few clerics know what invoke is? I mean i learned about the cleric class cause i wanted to know what they're doing, and what i can use to my advantage. Invoke is like a clerics best friend, an invincible meat shield for 20 seconds. Answers pl0x?

^^ Not to mention the two sparks you used to cast it. I remember a conversastion my fac leader had with a certain 7x barb, who asked what invoke did, and if it was actually worth getting; b:surrender but I'm rambling . . .

I can understand your frustration. But honestly, the first time I saw invoke used was in my 70's. In lower level instances, if your barb has invoke, he doesn't need to use it, because he can probably solo the dungeon. Except 51 maybe? but you get the idea.

Tell the cleric to wait for the BB icon in your buffs, and then res.

Darkette - Sanctuary

I've been playing clerics on various servers for quite a long time. I've seen invoke a few times, I know what it does, but to tell the truth, I could give a rat's azz less and here's why.

As a cleric my attention is often divided between the screen and the squad bars. With so many nitwit BMs, Sins, Psys, and Archers running around aggroing everything in site it's impossible to watch the main screen full time. Because of this, it's exceedingly easy to miss the yellow invoke indicator.

And here's this, at bosses my principal duty is to keep the tank alive; therefore, he's probably going to get my heals whether he wants them or not. What happens when I 'think' I saw the invoke indicator, don't heal, and the barb dies because because it wasn't really invoke.

As I've also played other classes to high levels (including barbs), I can say performing well as a cleric in-squad is just a wee bit more complicated than most of the other classes. Generally, other squad members are focused only on killing a single target while clerics must focus on providing heals and purifies to an entire squad.

And now my most recent barb diatribe ...

In BH69 the barb uses Earthflame to lure Polearm and comes running back to the squad with Polearm and a horseman. By the time the barb finally sets up to aggro Polearm he's debuffed down to 1/3 health and fails to aggro the horseman. I purify and throw a couple quick IHs and, of course the horseman is all over me immediately; whereupon I'm IH'ing myself for dear life -- all the while the barb is cussing me out for not healing and purifying him. There was a second cleric who might have taken care of the barb while I slowly dispatched the horseman, but she chose to do nothing whatsoever.

Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear

lol, it's funny, because just the other day I was doing FF on my cleric and had to tell the barb what invoke was because he kept dying before BB could go up.

spearm1cky

Well as everyone should know when in Squad u listen to the cleric ,it goes in rank like this -
Squad leader - Cleric (unless its a FB but the cleric still calls the shots)
2IC - Tank(barb)never let a sin tank(cos u have to heal so much u cop aggro)
Puller - Veno or Tank with Zeal
DD -assist atk
DD -assist atk
DD -assist atk

if the DD's run off and get killed more than twice threatin to boot them from squad
Always the Cleric should know whats happin around them at all times as should the Tank
Tanks MAIN roll is to take aggro and keep it, protect the Cleric and himself
Tank and Cleric must always form a plan before starting run
(Not all Clerics know what the tank skills)
Cleric Main roll is to keep the Tank from dieing and and put them selfs between Tank and rest of squad , never run with more than 1 sin in squad or it is fail(they think they are bullet proof)

I run 2 clerics a 71 and a 85 all i do is FB,BH,FF and these are my Run Rules

Cheers all and if u dont like my reply - they are my run rules not urs

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

spearm1cky wrote: »

Well as everyone should know when in Squad u listen to the cleric ,it goes in rank like this -
Squad leader - Cleric (unless its a FB but the cleric still calls the shots)
2IC - Tank(barb)never let a sin tank(cos u have to heal so much u cop aggro)
Puller - Veno or Tank with Zeal
DD -assist atk
DD -assist atk
DD -assist atk

if the DD's run off and get killed more than twice threatin to boot them from squad
Always the Cleric should know whats happin around them at all times as should the Tank
Tanks MAIN roll is to take aggro and keep it, protect the Cleric and himself
Tank and Cleric must always form a plan before starting run
(Not all Clerics know what the tank skills)
Cleric Main roll is to keep the Tank from dieing and and put them selfs between Tank and rest of squad , never run with more than 1 sin in squad or it is fail(they think they are bullet proof)

I run 2 clerics a 71 and a 85 all i do is FB,BH,FF and these are my Run Rules

Cheers all and if u dont like my reply - they are my run rules not urs

you know it's a game and not an army right?

Siuki - Dreamweaver

lol i never knew barb skills untill i made my own barb. none of barbs have ever cared to tell which skill do what so how the hell r we supposed to know?

Mardra - Sanctuary

THIS--

spearm1cky wrote: »

Well as everyone should know when in Squad u listen to the cleric ,it goes in rank like this -
Squad leader - Cleric (unless its a FB but the cleric still calls the shots)
2IC - Tank(barb)never let a sin tank(cos u have to heal so much u cop aggro)
Puller - Veno or Tank with Zeal
DD -assist atk
DD -assist atk
DD -assist atk

if the DD's run off and get killed more than twice threatin to boot them from squad
Always the Cleric should know whats happin around them at all times as should the Tank
Tanks MAIN roll is to take aggro and keep it, protect the Cleric and himself
Tank and Cleric must always form a plan before starting run
(Not all Clerics know what the tank skills)
Cleric Main roll is to keep the Tank from dieing and and put them selfs between Tank and rest of squad , never run with more than 1 sin in squad or it is fail(they think they are bullet proof)

I run 2 clerics a 71 and a 85 all i do is FB,BH,FF and these are my Run Rules

Cheers all and if u dont like my reply - they are my run rules not urs

and THIS-

Flickerfae - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm going to add another point to the 'clerics don't watch animations' tally.

Well, that's not entirely accurate. We watch animations, to see who the ranged DDers are hitting in case their targets switch aggro. We watch boss animations, particularly bosses who have known aoe or effect attacks that we need to anticipate. We watch the barb for roar/flesh ream/etc to make sure that he's gotten the aggro of all the mobs in range before we start healing.

Also, we watch 5 HP bars.

Also, we watch 5 status effect sets in case someone needs a quick purify, or if buffs need to be restacked.

Also, we watch for roaming mobs.

Also, we keep an eye on where the other members are, in case someone wanders out of heal range or into a set of said wandering mobs.

Also, we check the chat box, in case someone has a special request or needs to afk or whatever.

And, oh yeah, we need to glance at our own bars every now and then, just in case we catch damage we didn't expect.

So, yeah. While barb animations are a really handy tool to watch, there is a whole lot of other stuff clerics are doing at any one time, so it's really easy to miss something. I can't tell you how many time I've glanced at the health bars, only to check back with my barb and realize I'm not sure whether he roared or not at the 5 mobs attacking him. Animations are easy to miss, particularly at distance.

So yeah, while I am also one of the people who didn't know what invoke was until this thread, so I find it very likely that your cleric didn't either. However, I doubt that even explaining it to the cleric beforehand will help. When things go sideways like that, the cleric is frantically calculating aggro and healing speeds, watching health bars, and button mashing... watching the barb becomes the last thing the cleric thinks of doing... because, hey, you're the one with the stacked IHs, so you'll be fine.

Try typing it in the chat box, if you have the time, otherwise, just chalk it up to one of those things that just happens in instance from time to time. Accidents happen, and accepting that is part of playing the game.

both these post pretty much explain it all.

Xoria - Sanctuary

Lupumid - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well my point is, the giant yellow yelling thing should be a cue to stop healing me. So is it a case of fail clerics or expecting fail barbs? Also i remember using invoke as i ran towards wyvern in BH51. Some idiot house cats like to save their sparks to double spark uselessly though.

I throw on a few heals to the barb after I see invoke and then turn to resurrect squad members or heal HP that is missing. By the time invoke wears off, the heals will start taking full effect.

I don't believe in "clerics are watching ___ to see ___ animation." The effects are hard to miss. The debuffs are hard to miss as well. The most I might not see/ get to right away due to lag or general cool- down is when someone's HP goes down ASAP. That takes a few frames to load on the squad member list when I am clicked on, oh, say, the tank. It's even less of an excuse to not see animations and debuffs and all if it's a BH you have done multiple times already. You know what each boss and mob does- no excuse.

What other classes do not understand is that barbs are great for holding aggro- on one mob, not several at once with a bunch of DDs that don't want to assist attack or hold back just slightly. I have also noticed that venos do not readily bramble their tank only. Yes, bramble is great for reflecting damage, but that return damage also builds aggro.

Roaming mobs- not something I particularly watch for. I'm a cleric- I stay behind the squad as they deal with roamers first. If someone wanders out of heal range, I expect them to understand they aren't getting healed anymore from BB or Chromatic Healing Beam and they make the according adjustments- not me.

As for people not knowing what each class has in according to skills, there are sites with information on every class's skills, like ecatomb.net/pwi. To play your class exceptionally well, it takes a little bit of research on everyone's part as well as understanding game mechanics on a basic level (IE: aggro and how it works).

Alleia - Dreamweaver

Odd that this post should come up. I was in TT with a barb from my faction today, and we were discussing Invoke. To be honest, in my experience, Clerics focus a LOT on the buff signs that come up - all the while paying attention to every other person in the squad and spamming IH/Purify/etc.

Unfortunately Invoke doesn't give much clue with a buff sign. It shows the 'Slow' buff - this could be from ANYTHING. If a Cleric is focused on his/her squad, like they should be, they most likely missed you casting Invoke which can only be known it's been casted if you are watching the barb every second.

I'm level 80 and I was only just explained this two or three levels ago, not everyone gets the chance to have a need to use it. Most of the time the barb I've been in squad with uses it to allow me the time to res another squad member.

Please remember Clerics (as everyone expects them to) are watching much much more than many of the other classes in the squad. We simply can't catch every single cast when we have running mobs, heal aggro, squishiness. We have to keep the squad healed, the tank healed, ourselves healed.. it can really be exhausting. If we miss a cast here or there, just nicely mention it.

Xoria - Sanctuary

I suppose you can also say "invoking" before you actually hit the hot key for it.

Thelas_Carr - Sanctuary

Siuki - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lol i never knew barb skills untill i made my own barb. none of barbs have ever cared to tell which skill do what so how the hell r we supposed to know?

Same... I played a cleric to L9x before I made another character, and that was a barb. Now I know what invoke does, whereas before I had no clue even at L93, and I have a better comprehension of barb skills in general. I still have relatively little clue about the skills of other characters except Psychics and Venos as a friend I play with plays those two classes.

It seems your expectation is that everyone should learn the skills of every class so that gameplay of their own class is optimally complementary to that of the other classes in a squad, or that at the least clerics should learn the key skills of barbs. While it's a worthwhile expectation, without actually playing a barb most clerics are not going to understand the descriptions on Ecatomb and their tactical implications. As you stated, there is such a rush up to L60 or 70 with triple BHs now, that a realistic expctation is for a cleric to at the very least know their own skills, let alone those of the primary tank-class.

To summarize the answer, most clerics don't heal others when the barb invokes because they barely know their own skills and certainly have no clue about yours (unless they have also played a barb). I'd recommend that if you invoke and a cleric doesn't heal DDers on the brink of death, that you explain the skill to the cleric after the battle... if you don't explain, then you're part of the problem of continuing ignorance.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Siuki - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lol i never knew barb skills untill i made my own barb. none of barbs have ever cared to tell which skill do what so how the hell r we supposed to know?

You don't have to have a barb to know. I knew how to play a barb before I made one, which was confirmed when I, in fact, made one and leveled it to 90.

Some observations before I made my barb:

- Barb makes roaring sound, head thrashes left and right, that's flesh ream.
- Barb does some move and looks upward, then you see another bless-like icon appear on his status bar (which you should be watching), that's invoke.
- When you see a bunch of swords appear above mobs around the barb and a similar animation to invoke, that's roar.
- When you see a similar animation to roar/invoke, then the barb follows through with a roundhouse to the face of every mob around him, that's sunder.

Just a few examples. It's easy to tell other class skills as well, particularly BM as you'll find yourself healing them quite often.

These things are not hard to figure out. It's just paying attention.