Are fists going to become BM only?

TheDan - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Due to higher crit and blazing arrow a 5aps archer is only about 5% less damage than a BM using the same weapon. If the BM has a lower refine or has 1 socket instead of 2 socket they won't hold aggro over the archer.


Archer BM Barb are all comparable to eachother in dps but 5.0 dagger is alot more.

Is this after considering 135% DBB Fire damage for BMs? Just wondering.

Foxgrit - Lost City

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This post right here proves you're a moron in your own special way.

Flesh Ream is a skill and you won't be able to spam it any faster even if you use fists. Fist barbs can also already tank when in human form, the only difference that would be seen if they were able to use fists in tiger is they would have a greater HP pool. That's it.

You seriously think people will still take 5aps barbs in tiger form when a 5aps BM or archer who can tank can still tank and can still do more damage?

And we'll say it again. 5aps does not let you spam skills any faster. Learn to play.

You are a moron. No one said anything about skills casting faster. Barbs will just do much more dps and also be able to hold agro.

5 aps barb worth more than 5 aps archer.

Learn to read or better yet learn not to post since your comments usually are not very intelligent.


I will agree that it probably would not fix agro holding from 5.0 assassin but it would be a huge step in the right direction for agro control.

BTW 5.0 aps foxform veno would be only a small step below assassin with melee mastery.

Noskrad - Heavens Tear

Foxgrit - Lost City wrote: »

No one is talking about glitching it. There is a planned change to make it allowed under normal game play without exploiting a bug. That is the master plan to make barbs able to tank again. 5.0 APS barb in tiger form spamming flesh ream without cheating.

mmm... sounds interesting... really? it would be great if devs really do that!

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Foxgrit - Lost City wrote: »

Barbs will just do much more dps and also be able to hold agro.

5 aps barb worth more than 5 aps archer.

If you make 2 comparable 5.0 barb and archer builds you wouldnt see "much more dps". An extra 150 str adds like 14% damage to demon spark while archers have like 12% more crit. Blazing and poison fang are about the same as well. Archers also can throw down bloodvow for -18% hp debuff and 25% damage amp.

kenlee

and again... survivability? the weakest class from all 5.0 classes
barbs have devour

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

kenlee wrote: »

and again... survivability? the weakest class from all 5.0 classes
barbs have devour

You'd lose more DPS than gain if a barb were to switch to axes, switch to tiger form, devour, switch back, then switch to fists again.

Now that's taking into account that they haven't glitched into true form with fists.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

kenlee wrote: »

and again... survivability? the weakest class from all 5.0 classes
barbs have devour

Yes barbs have survivability, they've always had that. You argued that barbs have significantly more dps than an archer and that is false. 5.0 Archers / BMs / Barbs have comparable dps. Whoever has the highest refined weapon will be doing the most dps.

While barbs have the most survivability, archers and BMs often have "enough" survivability to tank which is why you keep seeing these threads about barbs qq'ing at not being the main tanks for high level instances.

TheDan - Sanctuary

I'm still standing to reason that BMs get a significant DPS advantage due to fist weapon mastery (75%), DBB (135%), dragon bane (+25% crit), STR boost (I've got 400 STR) and HF (9 sec 100%). b:surrender

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm still standing to reason that BMs get a significant DPS advantage due to fist weapon mastery (75%), DBB (135%), dragon bane (+25% crit), STR boost (I've got 400 STR) and HF (9 sec 100%). b:surrender

Doesnt it take like 2 seconds to do the glitch for those 2? 2 seconds of dead time out of the standard 18s spark cycle lowers dps by like 11%... Though I don't know enough about the glitch exploit timing to be more exact...

A standard spark cycle without glitch exploit gives BMs about 5-7% more dps than similar geared archer. Sins though have like 30% more with dagger.

Lenore - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Due to higher crit and blazing arrow a 5aps archer is only about 5% less damage than a BM using the same weapon. If the BM has a lower refine or has 1 socket instead of 2 socket they won't hold aggro over the archer.


Archer BM Barb are all comparable to eachother in dps but 5.0 dagger is alot more.

I'm not sure what blazing arrow adds to the table...I thought that works for attacks that require "arrows" as it said in the description. If I am mistaken, all the better, but do you actually know if blazing arrow affects melee attacks?

TheDan - Sanctuary

D

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Doesnt it take like 2 seconds to do the glitch for those 2? 2 seconds of dead time out of the standard 18s spark cycle lowers dps by like 11%... Though I don't know enough about the glitch exploit timing to be more exact...

A standard spark cycle without glitch exploit gives BMs about 5-7% more dps than similar geared archer. Sins though have like 30% more with dagger.

Dbb is .6 second channel and dragon bane is the 79 skill crit buff for 30 seconds and is instant. Dragon bane consumes one spark so there is no glitch on that one. Apart from dbb since most bms do not know how to use it, your calculations seem accurate for the most part.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

D

Dbb is .6 second channel and dragon bane is the 79 skill crit buff for 30 seconds and is instant. Dragon bane consumes one spark so there is no glitch on that one. Apart from dbb since most bms do not know how to use it, your calculations seem accurate for the most part.

Ehh those "instant" cast skills definitely take time to cast. I'm pretty sure archer BM and barb are all within like 10% of eachother while hax 5.0 dagger sin is significantly ahead. That's why I'd say archer is not 'useless' or whatever as a 5.0 build since the damage is comparable to BMs.

kenlee

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes barbs have survivability, they've always had that. You argued that barbs have significantly more dps than an archer and that is false. 5.0 Archers / BMs / Barbs have comparable dps. Whoever has the highest refined weapon will be doing the most dps.

you are missing the whole picture, what you are saying is basically theory...
ive seen (been with) fists barbs and bm but let me see how many archers with fists can tank the same bosses. archers have a few times lower pdef than bm/barb (not counting marrow) and quite lower hp... unless you spend a lot more money on archer to get something equivalent to bm/barb. also... while barbs/bm can live with just some random axes, their fists can be their main weapon while archers still need to refine their primary weapon (bow/xbow) besides fists.

Lenore - Harshlands

kenlee wrote: »

you are missing the whole picture, what you are saying is basically theory...
ive seen (been with) fists barbs and bm but let me see how many archers with fists can tank the same bosses. archers have a few times lower pdef than bm/barb (not counting marrow) and quite lower hp... unless you spend a lot more money on archer to get something equivalent to bm/barb. also... while barbs/bm can live with just some random axes, their fists can be their main weapon while archers still need to refine their primary weapon (bow/xbow) besides fists.

Where in the post you quoted did Ast claim a "big picture?" The last few posts have all been about DPS. No one is arguing that archers are the squishiest of the -int classes. We're talking about aggro and dps. The reason archers have the "suckiest" tanking ability is that we're a ranged class whereas sins/BMs/barbs are not. This does not mean archers generate less dps or aggro, it means they die quicker. *rolls eyes* And YES we need to refine our bow in addition to claws, but the reward in that is we're doing comparable DPS to melee classes at melee range and MUCH BETTER dps than melee classes at long range. b:shutup

kenlee

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

MUCH BETTER dps than melee classes at long range. b:shutup

rofl. ok you proved enough of yourself...

Telarith - Sanctuary

Foxgrit - Lost City wrote: »

You are a moron. No one said anything about skills casting faster. Barbs will just do much more dps and also be able to hold agro.

5 aps barb worth more than 5 aps archer.

Learn to read or better yet learn not to post since your comments usually are not very intelligent.


I will agree that it probably would not fix agro holding from 5.0 assassin but it would be a huge step in the right direction for agro control.

BTW 5.0 aps foxform veno would be only a small step below assassin with melee mastery.

Airyll I believe didn't explain it well, they were basically trying to find a way your post wasn't pointless is my guess.

You mentioned using Flesh Ream for the barb with fists to help hold aggro. This is by itself a stupid idea, as Flesh Ream aggro sucks compared to the aggro and damage generated just by auto-attacking in demon spark. So the only way it couldn't be utterly clueless, would be due to Flesh Ream being faster casting in some manner (maybe instant) to actually make its use worthwhile. Least, that's what I took it for, but I tend to give more thought than most.

And the main thing archers have over BMs is sharding. We tend to shard defensive for PvP and tanking instances, whereas many archers utilize their greater range with bow and shard DoTs. That gives a large increase as is, roughly 18% greater damage with full DoT sharding and both using Jones' Blessing. That brings them back up to barb/bm lvl quite easily.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver

with all the -interval gear available it seems like the idea of choosing either a weapon with great damage per hit or a weapon with low damage per hit with a higher hit rate has become obsolete. BMs with sword or other slower weapon face the same problems that wizards have. I would love to see more BMs with sword or spear but for obvious reasons nobody is willing to play such a character because endgame and for pvp purpose it became pointless

Valirah - Sanctuary

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm not sure what blazing arrow adds to the table...I thought that works for attacks that require "arrows" as it said in the description. If I am mistaken, all the better, but do you actually know if blazing arrow affects melee attacks?

Blazing Arrow adds fire damage to all physical weapon attacks (not to bare hands though) despite what the description states.

Telarith - Sanctuary

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

with all the -interval gear available it seems like the idea of choosing either a weapon with great damage per hit or a weapon with low damage per hit with a higher hit rate has become obsolete. BMs with sword or other slower weapon face the same problems that wizards have. I would love to see more BMs with sword or spear but for obvious reasons nobody is willing to play such a character because endgame and for pvp purpose it became pointless

Most of us 5 APS BMs who were posting the past year have at least 6 weapons or so, and at least 1 of each weapon type. Blade is the weapon I run around with in Warsong, due to barbs missing catches often. MSS is a great catching skill for that very reason.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

And the main thing archers have over BMs is sharding. We tend to shard defensive for PvP and tanking instances, whereas many archers utilize their greater range with bow and shard DoTs. That gives a large increase as is, roughly 18% greater damage with full DoT sharding and both using Jones' Blessing. That brings them back up to barb/bm lvl quite easily.

Hmm, that seems about right... It would actually be above BMs and Barbs without them even having to try... interesting.

Lenore - Harshlands

kenlee wrote: »

rofl. ok you proved enough of yourself...

Ok sure, not sure what the point of that post is. I agree me having to say archers having better dps is pointless but it would have to be, because it's replying to your stupid post about archers not being able to take hits as well as BMs. That's why they're different and not the same class.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

You mentioned using Flesh Ream for the barb with fists to help hold aggro. This is by itself a stupid idea, as Flesh Ream aggro sucks compared to the aggro and damage generated just by auto-attacking in demon spark. So the only way it couldn't be utterly clueless, would be due to Flesh Ream being faster casting in some manner (maybe instant) to actually make its use worthwhile. Least, that's what I took it for, but I tend to give more thought than most.

Lol... I seriously wana see a tiger barb 5 aps fists hitting stuff kitty on speed
Though I'm not quite sure how this would work with masteries o.O Axe/Hammer/Fist Mastery?

BMs with sword or other slower weapon face the same problems that wizards have.

Are you suggesting single path bms is/should be... good? o.O
My nub bm has all decent weaps for her lvl. o.O Heck even my barb has axes/fists/bow (for fcc or just for lolz) & a purge pole.

Quilue - Sanctuary

kenlee wrote: »

you are missing the whole picture, what you are saying is basically theory...
ive seen (been with) fists barbs and bm but let me see how many archers with fists can tank the same bosses. archers have a few times lower pdef than bm/barb (not counting marrow) and quite lower hp... unless you spend a lot more money on archer to get something equivalent to bm/barb. also... while barbs/bm can live with just some random axes, their fists can be their main weapon while archers still need to refine their primary weapon (bow/xbow) besides fists.

You don't necessarily have to be tank just because you're 5.0 if other 5.0s are present. Even though archers are the least defensive, they can still output better DPS than if they were to use bow, so i don't know what there is to lol about

Also, Asterelle has tanked just about every boss in the game except for Harpy Wraith.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lol... I seriously wana see a tiger barb 5 aps fists hitting stuff kitty on speed
Though I'm not quite sure how this would work with masteries o.O Axe/Hammer/Fist Mastery?


Are you suggesting single path bms is/should be... good? o.O
My nub bm has all decent weaps for her lvl. o.O Heck even my barb has axes/fists/bow (for fcc or just for lolz) & a purge pole.

I've seen it lol, glitched that is.


Pretty funny

Templar - Sanctuary

I always wondered why claw isnt barb weapon only xD i mean when we go to tiger form where is our axe or pole b:shocked ok for pole maybe i know hm nvm


it sound logical for barbs to use claws xD so make it bm and barb only archers use your bows and sell us high refine deicides for cheap b:chuckle

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Templar - Sanctuary wrote: »

I always wondered why claw isnt barb weapon only xD i mean when we go to tiger form where is our axe or pole b:shocked ok for pole maybe i know hm nvm


it sound logical for barbs to use claws xD so make it bm and barb only archers use your bows and sell us high refine deicides for cheap b:chuckle

Lol... didn't you have yours +10? <.< How much higher do you want?

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Either way if its going to BM only or not, you shouldn't be using fists on other classes except for the lols.

I hate when forums preach epic fail builds that only leads to "pwn" relying on a huge amount of cash or time ingame...

I think I rather build an bow/arcane robed archer with -chan, at least that is more useful and i don't have to rely on refines and that -int. Either way, they lost the game to make it a serious build for archers and barbs.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Either way if its going to BM only or not, you shouldn't be using fists on other classes except for the lols.

I hate when forums preach epic fail builds that only leads to "pwn" relying on a huge amount of cash or time ingame...

I think I rather build an bow/arcane robed archer with -chan, at least that is more useful and i don't have to rely on refines and that -int. Either way, they lost the game to make it a serious build for archers and barbs.

You were mentioning epic fail builds? I just put one in bold for you... idiot. b:chuckle

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

You were mentioning epic fail builds? I just put one in bold for you... idiot. b:chuckle

Yeah, its fail, I agree with you, but at least they are not cash dependent b:bye

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Either way if its going to BM only or not, you shouldn't be using fists on other classes except for the lols.

I hate when forums preach epic fail builds that only leads to "pwn" relying on a huge amount of cash or time ingame...

I think I rather build an bow/arcane robed archer with -chan, at least that is more useful and i don't have to rely on refines and that -int. Either way, they lost the game to make it a serious build for archers and barbs.

I wanted to respond <.< But then saw it's Yulk meh