I hate how overpowered 5.0 aps is

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Learn to read the rest of a post?

Then maybe you'd have caught the 1) "at 6x and 7x levels it's a better deal to use your skills too" part and the 2) "because everybody sits here claiming fists are OP, all the noobs are now using fists thinking they're epic tanks and can out DD anything, then cry when they lose aggro to a barb, Herc or caster class"

b:bye

1) Only HF and stun skills, ranged too if the mob is stuck in wall (like in 59) or AoEs with axes if there are multiple mobs.
2) Correct.

Okeano - Harshlands

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Learn to read the rest of a post?

Then maybe you'd have caught the "at 6x and 7x levels it's a better deal to use your skills too" part and the "because everybody sits here claiming fists are OP, all the noobs are now using fists thinking they're epic tanks and can out DD anything, then cry when they lose aggro to a barb, Herc or caster class"

b:bye

Play a melee class before you comment? at 6X and 7X, fists will save you MP, give you chi faster for sparking to out DSP your skill spamming or use for healing with Sutra. There are plenty of fail fists BM's out there, but fists themselves are useful from 29 and up.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

1) Only HF and stun skills, ranged too if the mob is stuck in wall (like in 59) or AoEs with axes if there are multiple mobs.

In a squad situation, stunning skills can be highly effective and are more appreciated then a BM sitting there auto-attacking in fists one mob at a time. Speaking from a squad standpoint it is more effective to at least switch weapons when they are called for.

This is what the noobs are not doing, because they seem to think fists are seriously that OP and awesome. This is why we're having this thread. Because noobs don't recognise when they need to use other skills and not auto-attack with fists and because low level noobs moan constantly when somebody steals their aggro and rage about how fists are all that.

And at 6x and 7x? No, they aren't.

Okeano: we're talking about squad situations.

Need MP? Pots exist for a reason. Just to say.

AGAIN, let's state the issue here, shall we? Because it's going completely over your head.

Speaking from a squad standpoint it is more effective to at least switch weapons when they are called for.

This is what the noobs are not doing, because they seem to think fists are seriously that OP and awesome. This is why we're having this thread. Because noobs don't recognise when they need to use other skills and not auto-attack with fists and because low level noobs moan constantly when somebody steals their aggro and rage about how fists are all that.

kenlee

Stilleh - Raging Tide wrote: »

QFT.

I'm a 92BM with some -Int gear, (Gorenox vanities, TT90gold bracers, Lunar cape). I wouldn't go in with fists in a fight with +2 mobs, but as soon as there is only one mob left I switch to fists to build chi (anything else is stupid too, common logic really...).

But I have to say that there are AxeonlyBMs that are equally worthless as FistonlyBMs. Don't know how many BMs I've run FC with for example, that only use Axes throughout the instance. No MP charm and autoattacking on bosses 'cause they don't have mana... If you are lucky they might have enough chi to eventually throw in 1 HF during a bossfight, maybe. People are so stuck up on that they have to DPS the hell out of the mob. BMs are great at DPSing, but we also have one of the best, if not THE best, damage amp skill in the game, HF, and if you aren't using it everytime the cooldown is off in a bossfight, you fail in my book. It makes baby Jesus cry...

it is, difference between demon HF and demon amp from veno is like 9% damage for whole squad (during a whole amp time)

Russiee - Raging Tide

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No. Just no.

Below the level at which you're refining your gear to +5 or above and have no -int, fists are not the best weapon of choice. Use them to try and get chi faster, sure, but the number of failure low level archers or low level BMs with no -int gear I see is horrible.

They all think they can tank bosses and do this huge great super awesome amount of damage, and then they all cry when the barb takes aggro back because at the lower levels and before stacked -int, fists just aren't that powerful.

But because everybody talks about how OP fists/claws are and because nearly everybody is now aiming for the expensive -int build, everybody assumes that fists must be OP for this very reason regardless of level. And it's not freaking true and it's breeding a whole new level of failures, who will cry to the point their tears could grow crops because they're too dumb to understand why fists suck if you don't have a couple of pieces of -int and nicely refined fists.

Airyll yet you also have new breeds of "Best Axe BM's on all of PWi" that get full TT99 HA gear (Yes even Ornaments, for the Crit and Vit bonuses), and that shard their armor with Sapphire Gems, they then repeatedly use TT99 Gold Axes +10 with no Interval gear because "power" is more important than "DPS". The "sapphire gems" are supposed to be pro in "PvP" even though the BM gets 2 shot with magic spells even by archers.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In a squad situation, stunning skills can be highly effective and are more appreciated then a BM sitting there auto-attacking in fists one mob at a time. Speaking from a squad standpoint it is more effective to at least switch weapons when they are called for.

This is what the noobs are not doing, because they seem to think fists are seriously that OP and awesome. This is why we're having this thread. Because noobs don't recognise when they need to use other skills and not auto-attack with fists and because low level noobs moan constantly when somebody steals their aggro and rage about how fists are all that.

And at 6x and 7x? No, they aren't.

Okeano: we're talking about squad situations.

Need MP? Pots exist for a reason. Just to say.

AGAIN, let's state the issue here, shall we? Because it's going completely over your head.

I can't quite grasp what you mean. Do you hate fists or something? They are not OP at 6x and 7x but you can perform pretty well with your fists, only using axes for AoEing, if any and HF. Roar > Drake's Bash.

But for god's sake don't spam skills with your axes when killing mobs 1vs1. You look like that noob on the forums who's-name-I-shall-not-mention. No, not Yulk.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Russiee - Raging Tide wrote: »

Airyll yet you also have new breeds of "Best Axe BM's on all of PWi" that get full TT99 HA gear (Yes even Ornaments, for the Crit and Vit bonuses), and that shard their armor with Sapphire Gems, they then repeatedly use TT99 Gold Axes +10 with no Interval gear because "power" is more important than "DPS". The "sapphire gems" are supposed to be pro in "PvP" even though the BM gets 2 shot with magic spells even by archers.

Not denying that these BMs are equally fail for a second.

The best BMs are one that can utilise a couple of their weapon paths and their skills when they're needed. The BMs who think axes are just all totally pro and just all that are as fail as the ones who think the same about fists in 6x and 7x and they're just as liable to cry and complain when they also lose their aggro.

-edit-

Quote me where I said "Spam axe skills all the time on 1vs1 mobs" please, before you accuse me of saying such things, okay?

I said in a squad situation, the best BMs are those who can switch weapons and use their skills where it is appropriate. This doesn't constitute spamming axe skills or polearm skills or whatever. Nor does it constitute sitting there all the time and using fists. It means a mixture of both. Use your stuns when you have to and when it would aid a squad. Use your fists if something just needs to die. Etc. etc.

Where in that statement does it say "SPAM AXE SKILLZ PLZ AND I TOTALLY HATE ALL FIST USERS"?

Oh wait. It doesn't...

Okeano - Harshlands

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Okeano: we're talking about squad situations.

Need MP? Pots exist for a reason. Just to say.

AGAIN, let's state the issue here, shall we? Because it's going completely over your head.

Squad situations? No one here's talking about punching mobs one at a time when there's a group. I was talking about this, when Kupuntu said

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

When killing a boss, fists > other weapons even without any int gear.

You replied

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No. Just no.

Below the level at which you're refining your gear to +5 or above and have no -int, fists are not the best weapon of choice. Use them to try and get chi faster, sure, but the number of failure low level archers or low level BMs with no -int gear I see is horrible.

They all think they can tank bosses and do this huge great super awesome amount of damage, and then they all cry when the barb takes aggro back because at the lower levels and before stacked -int, fists just aren't that powerful.

On a boss or mob, you are going to out DD skill spamming with fists and no interval and there's no reason to spam skill. Sure there's MP pots, but those aren't free and can get expensive for lower levels. You are arguing that fists are useless at lower levels no matter what. I'm arguing that they are perfectly fine for 1v1 fights even if you have 0 interval gears.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

On a boss or mob, you are going to out DD skill spamming with fists and no interval and there's no reason to spam skill. Sure there's MP pots, but those aren't free and can get expensive for lower levels. You are arguing that fists are useless at lower levels no matter what. I'm arguing that they are perfectly fine for 1v1 fights even if you have 0 interval gears.

Not best weapon of choice =/= totally useless period

Again, putting words into my mouth that I never actually said, and still arguing in a point I have long since elaborated on.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not denying that these BMs are equally fail for a second.

The best BMs are one that can utilise a couple of their weapon paths and their skills when they're needed. The BMs who think axes are just all totally pro and just all that are as fail as the ones who think the same about fists in 6x and 7x and they're just as liable to cry and complain when they also lose their aggro.

Yes, but still fists > axes at all levels. We are not talking about "which is the best one path BM" we are talking "which weapon is the best". Best BM is the one that has at least three paths, but fists are still the best weapon to use in a dungeon.

Okeano - Harshlands

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not best weapon of choice =/= totally useless period

Again, putting words into my mouth that I never actually said, and still arguing in a point I have long since elaborated on.

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Quote me where I said "Spam axe skills all the time on 1vs1 mobs" please, before you accuse me of saying such things, okay?

Putting words in your mouth? I don't know how to make this more clear to you than this

Kupuntu said

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

When killing a boss, fists > other weapons even without any int gear.

You replied

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No. Just no.

Below the level at which you're refining your gear to +5 or above and have no -int, fists are not the best weapon of choice. Use them to try and get chi faster, sure, but the number of failure low level archers or low level BMs with no -int gear I see is horrible.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

If you are thinking that below +5 and without int fists aren't the best weapon choice, then what? If you say axes... this way then: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=143481

Lenore - Harshlands

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

BS, my BM's 2.86 sparked (no where near perma spark), and no 90 Archer can out DPS me with a bow. Interval improves fists obviously, but fits are not "terrible for classes that have alternate weapons " when it comes to 1v1 DD-ing even without interval.

[Forum] Lenore: I don't know what your personal experiences are but I don't recall fist BMs taking aggro from me without a lot of interval (not sparked). As for the other statement, I meant fists are not as good compared to daggers for sins and bows for archers. My wording for that was probably very bad as it's quite late in the night for me, sorry. You can debate the accuracy of that if you want but I've had a Dark Flash waaay before Lunar Weapons and TT99 -interval came out and they definitely do not do better dps.

Pyrya - Archosaur

TBH the only time fist should ever be used pre-interval is on solo mobs and bosses. I know personally in instances I use fist for mobs i have to kill by myself (like a guard) or gaining chi for dragons on bosses. Yes the legend of interval breeds some absolute stupidity, i see it everyday.Everyone says "I wanna make a fist BM" yet they don't understand how crucial axe is until that much sought after interval. Archers have no excuse really, no skills and no mastery's, so why bother pre-interval?

IDK maybe raging tides full of failmasters :P

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not best weapon of choice =/= totally useless period

Again, putting words into my mouth that I never actually said, and still arguing in a point I have long since elaborated on.

then pray tell wwhat this "best weapon" is

w/o int fists deal a decent amount of DPS and give chi to HF every 30 seconds (swords do more dps w/o int pre 59 but after that fists are better than those to)

now the bms that just fist and spark do suck

but fists themselves are ideal for solo target killing in pve from lvl 1

based on these posts and other in this fourum it would be a great idea if you would makea bm lvl it and actually learn about the class rather than talking out of your ****

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

[Forum] Lenore: I don't know what your personal experiences are but I don't recall fist BMs taking aggro from me without a lot of interval (not sparked). As for the other statement, I meant fists are not as good compared to daggers for sins and bows for archers. My wording for that was probably very bad as it's quite late in the night for me, sorry. You can debate the accuracy of that if you want but I've had a Dark Flash waaay before Lunar Weapons and TT99 -interval came out and they definitely do not do better dps.

Bow and daggers will be better DD weapons before huge amount of int is possible and even then, daggers > fists. Archers and sins are pure damage dealers, BMs aren't.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Bow and daggers will be better DD weapons before huge amount of int is possible and even then, daggers > fists. Archers and sins are pure damage dealers, BMs aren't.

at 0 int sins out dps bm's

at -.1 through -.4 bm's will out dd a = geared sin assuming the same player on both

at -.45 its about even at -.5 sins wreck us

daggers and fists actually have the same refine rate i beleive so the only thing making them more usefull is the higher amount of base stat

bm's out DD archers wizzies and psys from the 1st -.1 onwards

the thing wizzies archers psys etc have over bm's in simple...range and its obscenly usefull

Telarith - Sanctuary

I think in the archer forum there is a post I made detailing where, how, and why BMs out-damage archers as DD way back when "BMs could never out-damage a bow in auto-attack". So, go look at that to figure out at what point of -int fists can beat bows in terms of DD.

NightRage - Raging Tide

/Gohan - Dreamweaver wrote: »

5.0 APS is some expensive ****, and this is a pay to win mmo. Were you expecting 5 APS players to do a funny dance?

Learn to read.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

A fist/claw BM without interval gears is really only a dragon b***h to those that do. They might as well be sage. b:chuckle

Aelric - Lost City

[Forum] Aelric: I'm waiting for extreme -chan insta casters! b:mischievous

this post was intentionally edited to portray the horrid UI changes

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

A fist/claw BM without interval gears is really only a dragon b***h to those that do. They might as well be sage. b:chuckle

Honestly the ones that don't have any -interval aren't that bad. It's the ones that have like one peice and think they have super high DD.


"Everyone stand back and watch me solo, I have FC green fists and TT90 gold wrists."

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

ROFL I remember one bm joining a nirvana run, saying that he's a good fist bm b:chuckle I look at his name, if it's unfamiliar to me the probability of him sucking is about 90%.

Lol I look at his gear, no int some mold fists, so I talk to my countrymate cleric in squad about this as an example of crappy fist bms that just restat for fists to claim to have em & think they pro... & then the bm responds in our language b:shocked b:surrender

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

ROFL I remember one bm joining a nirvana run, saying that he's a good fist bm b:chuckle I look at his name, if it's unfamiliar to me the probability of him sucking is about 90%.

Lol I look at his gear, no int some mold fists, so I talk to my countrymate cleric in squad about this as an example of crappy fist bms that just restat for fists to claim to have em & think they pro... & then the bm responds in our language b:shocked b:surrender

That must have been so epic.

Anyway, I have similar stories. It's always so funny to just watch at the PvP action on LC. There's usually so many fail BMs like the one with 7k+ kills and TT90 sharded with average elemental shards or those "pro" fist BMs with 98 fists and no int. I'm really wondering what those guys are doing. Something wrong, that's for sure.

Okeano - Harshlands

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

at 0 int sins out dps bm's

at -.1 through -.4 bm's will out dd a = geared sin assuming the same player on both

at -.45 its about even at -.5 sins wreck us

Same level Sin with same amount of interval almost always out DPS a BM, until maybe when BM's at 5 APS while Sin's at 3.33. More DEX than BM's STR aside, Sins can spark much more often than BMs at lower intervals and at higher intervals, well, Sins hit harder per hit.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

If a sin gets aggro then sin usually gets instapwned while the BM would be able to tank.

Yulk - Heavens Tear

wow, your such a hypocrit. What happened to being a 5 aps barb? I guess you failed hard since your so "godly" cause your high level. Oafish people is oafish.

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

If a sin gets aggro then sin usually gets instapwned while the BM would be able to tank.

I know a few sins that can out-DD BMs and tank just as well.

Of course the sins put a lot more $$$ into their gear like vit stones, refines and such.

Jhalil - Heavens Tear

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I know a few sins that can out-DD BMs and tank just as well.

Of course the sins put a lot more $$$ into their gear like vit stones, refines and such.

Accelerator doesn't count

I remember the first time I used fists I liked the fact that I could grind efficiently. Since I was 8x and I wasn't able to gather up too many mobs to AoE grind efficiently for coins.
Using fists with fist mastery and cyclone heel was perfect for me, I could kill the same/more mobs in less time than I would have gathering them and AoEing since I didn't have to stun them in between attacks or use marrow since it's just 1 mob at the time. And with me building chi as fast as I did (At least, what was very fast when I first tried fists, compared to axes) I could keep myself healed by using sutra, pop the MP orb that increases MP recovery to 100/s and I had cut back the costs for coin grinding by like...99% (Ok, maybe not that much..)
No potions were required, no mana potions required, skills keep my HP up and mobs died fast.

Regardless of this all, I knew my place as a BM. At 8x I didn't have any TT pieces since I knew it was a waste of money, just aimed for my TT90. And I knew that even with no int stacked, potentially I could steal aggro from less experienced barbs. But I also knew if I did I would most likely get 1-3 shot before the cleric had time to respond to the situation. So using axes when it comes to bosses you know can and will 1-2 shot you. Don't be a hero and put on your fists, you KNOW you'll die.

As for using fists on a group of mobs. I only have Deicide and TT90 gold wrists. And sometimes in some situations I do put on my fists and spark and get the mobs 1 by 1, simply because they would all die faster than they would have if I AoE'd. But those are just some situations. If I'm in a group with a bunch of AoErs obviously AoE will get all of them down faster.

@Yulk

Gtfo, he said himself he doesn't hate that 5.0APS is OP, he said what kind of douchebags it produces. Learn to read you illiterate piece of donkey ****.

stefanjama

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

At least with 5.0 4 classes are capable of achieving it.

Of the other 4:

1) Cleric - needed in almost every party
2) Veno - is useful to 5.0 classes for the amp alone but also can pull
3) Wizard - useless in instances but at least they dominate end game pvp
4) Psychic - kinda sucks to be you!

*facepalm*