I dont wanna be a fail veno

tweakz

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lure, debuff, use pet to save people, deal damage.

As long as you're doing at least that much, you're not failing.

Actually you're totally failing. There's a whole other major part of this game, and that's the market.

If you go to an FB69 and the Barb dies because the Cleric didn't have purify on Polearm, are they not fail?

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you really really think about Amp Damage, it isnt that beneficial, not as much as everyone thinks. Lets do some math here shall we?

Sage Amp is 30% and gets multiplied on by other factors like HF, Extreme Poison, Def Reducers, Crits. What's the difference between saving 1/4 of a minute (based on bad math) on each of 8, 3 minute bosses vs more on a 15m boss? Amp also makes up for your own lost DPS by amplifying on it after. The best excuse for not amping is to say you're lazy. Amp is so good that I use it on most of the mobs I clear when soloing in FB89, 99.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

If you go to an FB69 and the Barb dies because the Cleric didn't have purify on Polearm, are they not fail?

Um, tweakz? WTF are you trying to say here?

Yes, if the cleric fails to purify on polearm, that's the sign of a bad cleric. What on earth does that have to do with a venomancer? And what on earth does your reference to the market have to do with anything?

I don't understand what you just tried to say.

Quibie - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Actually you're totally failing. There's a whole other major part of this game, and that's the market.

If you go to an FB69 and the Barb dies because the Cleric didn't have purify on Polearm, are they not fail?



Sage Amp is 30% and gets multiplied on by other factors like HF, Extreme Poison, Def Reducers, Crits. What's the difference between saving 1/4 of a minute (based on bad math) on each of 8, 3 minute bosses vs more on a 15m boss? Amp also makes up for your own lost DPS by amplifying on it after. The best excuse for not amping is to say you're lazy. Amp is so good that I use it on most of the mobs I clear when soloing in FB89, 99.

b:chuckle wow tweak..LMAO..this post is soo funny. xD Let's ignore this post cause it makes no sense at all.

Read Desdi's post it's all there

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Oh dear...

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

[Long mostly correct calculations on Amp snipped]

The Veno is if full time Damage Dealing, responsible for roughly 20% of the parties damage output. I'm using rough terms here, but we'll say 20% per 4 DPSers & 10% per healer & tank. These figures can fluctuate depending on many factors, but i think its a good rough estimate. Of the 20% the Veno is responsible for, 10% is pet, 10% is Veno. as mentioned above, 7 of every 33 seconds its now not DPSing, so its losing 21.2% of its own damage output. that comes from its 10%, so the party is losing 2.12% of the damage output in total.

So we take the 12.1% increase from Amp, subtract the 2.1% from Veno halting DPS, and we get a 10% increase in overall damage output.

Ok so the Party is performing at 110% instead of 100%. If a boss would take 3 minutes to go down, it will instead 2:43 to go down, thats a 17 second savings. And thats your average BH or Frost boss.

Um.... whoopie?

I've highlighted the important parts in red. Basically, by your own analysis, a veno who nukes all-out (10% damage increase) helps the party less than a veno who spends her entire time in fox form picking her nose, stopping only to push the Amp button once every 31.5 seconds (12.1% damage increase).*

Amp is the second most useful skill venos get. Only pet heal is more valuable.

I used to Amp all the time, and then occasionally got lazy, and started to realize, there really wasnt any difference. Constantly swapping to fox & back is honestly a pain in the ****. But if there was a good time savings, it would be my duty. But i started to realize, there really wasnt much time savings, the differences is unnoticeable.

You have it backwards. If you want to be lazy in groups, just sit there in fox form and do nothing but use Amp. In a group, it is by far your best bang-for-the-buck skill, representing roughly half of the total damage you can contribute to a fight. If you want to put in more effort, use the time in between amps to melee or nuke.

*Edit: Technically the correct percentages are 11.1% vs. 12.1%, since the 10% is compared to 90%. But the point still stands that a single cast of Amp does more damage than all other Veno attacks combined in this scenario.

tweakz

I disagree. I feel picking my nose is more useful. b:thanks

MANray_ - Sanctuary

@Desdi; Nice, very informative post. I would only add two things;

Always be aware of your surroundings. Use your minimap to look for ads, strays, patrols. Venos are in a unique position to disengage from the main fight and deal with possible threats to the party.

Be careful not to bring into the squad more than they can handle. If you accidentally pull or aggro a group of mobs too large for your group to handle, you should lead them away, this is where veno's survival skills come in handy although there may be times when you may have to sacrifice yourself. While keeping the cleric alive is obviously the number one priority, you should also mind the welfare of the squad's core, always keep a close eye on the tank(s) so you get a good idea of what they can handle.

@Vitenka; You're absolutely right, given the current skill level of players in the field a veno just covering the basic stuff would already make a contribution to their squads, or at the very least not get in the way. And just ignore Tweakz, this is probably his cute way of saying an herc is as necessary to a veno as res to a cleric or any other such nonsense. It's a pity really because when he wants to he can provide very useful information and make valuable contributions to discussions...

Desdi - Sanctuary

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

@Desdi; Nice, very informative post. I would only add two things;

Always be aware of your surroundings. Use your minimap to look for ads, strays, patrols. Venos are in a unique position to disengage from the main fight and deal with possible threats to the party.

Be careful not to bring into the squad more than they can handle. If you accidentally pull or aggro a group of mobs too large for your group to handle, you should lead them away, this is where veno's survival skills come in handy although there may be times when you may have to sacrifice yourself. While keeping the cleric alive is obviously the number one priority, you should also mind the welfare of the squad's core, always keep a close eye on the tank(s) so you get a good idea of what they can handle.

Thank you b:victory and thank you for the extra information.
I actually used to be really careless once and aggro walkers constantly b:sweat I learnt my lesson after I died a couple of times.

_EngKanTo_ - Archosaur

I have a level 80+ full arcane Veno (Human) and I did level it all by myself. I did not do FB nor BH unless I can solo it.

At first, I did encountered difficulty when I start joining squad because they are expecting me to do something that I don't usually do like amplify, purge, and lure. I didn't use any of these skills when I'm doing solo. I have a genie with tangling mire & extreme poison which I find more helpfull instead of transforming to fox, run to the mob, transform to human and run back again. The only skills that I always use are Ironwood, Noxious, Lucky, Lending, & Myrad and I always make sure the malee attackers are always brambled. And luckily, I didn't experience wipe-out because of me b:chuckle.

Whenever my squad gets wiped-out, Barb & Cleric are always in argue b:chuckle.

Nowadays, I don't like to squad with random players because most of the time they do not know what to do. It seems most of them wants to impress each other resulting to failure of the group.

Am I a failed Veno? My answer will be NO because most of the players I squad with always ask me to squad with them again. If nobody wants to squad with you or they try to avoid you, maybe then I can consider you as fail Veno. Don't worry there are lots more failed players there than a Veno b:laugh.

tweakz

_EngKanTo_ - Archosaur wrote: »

Am I a failed Veno? My answer will be NO because most of the players I squad with always ask me to squad with them again. If nobody wants to squad with you or they try to avoid you, maybe then I can consider you as fail Veno. Don't worry there are lots more failed players there than a Veno b:laugh.

Just because you are asked to squad doesn't mean you're not fail, and I'm not saying you are. There are push-over venos also. Some people want to give venos small cuts in TT runs and such when they're doing either most of the DD or tanking. I can get ~5x the loot in about the same amount of time so I don't like bending over for them. There are venos that don't mind and they're of course going to be requested often.

You can't substitute Amp with Extreme Poison since they compliment each other. Fox Form is great for giving you the pdef to apply Amp within close range AoE. If you want to play lazy, consider playing a Wiz.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

I must agree with Tweakz on this one and will even go further, if by lvl 80 you fail to understand your most basic jobs in a squad you have failed. People asking you for squads are either fail themselves or looking for entertainment... This is the problem with people treating MMOs as if they were multiplayer console games. You might as well save yourself the trouble of spamming scarabs if you're that uncommitted to your squad's dps output.

Not amping or pulling? Really?

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

_EngKanTo_ - Archosaur wrote: »

At first, I did encountered difficulty when I start joining squad because they are expecting me to do something that I don't usually do like amplify, purge, and lure.

...how do you solo a veno to level 80+ and not lure? most amazingly useful skill a solo veno has, because it lets you take on entire groups of mobs without kiting. just pick a spot where nothing will respawn on top of you and pull out the group members one by one (or two by two, if you prefer) to become XP points for you. i'm always wishing my other chars could pull mobs like a veno, it'd make their grinding so much simpler.

(well, okay, maybe the second most amazingly useful after soul transfusion. but you can start pulling long before you learn that.)

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

Amp timing is one of the most important things I can think of especially in later instances/bosses. You can time amp to correspond with your squad's stackable skills you can watch HP come down fast. sage amp damage at 30% increase. Now for squads where I don't have an archer I really want to have sage soul degen with the -20% hp debuff...

Amp damage combined with HF, Glacial Spike, Tempest, Black Ice Dragon (or whatever that wizzy skill is) along with stackable genie skills (the poison one that stacks with HF, tangling mire etc) time it right and you can be in mage form and taking advantage of the stacks. Granted I only get this done perfectly with squads I've run with for a long long time cause we know how to read each other.

Then again we're usually the "suicide" squads pushing our chars and each other to go further and better ourselves. You don't know if something will work unless you push yourself, try new things or combos. Now I use the word "suicide" squad cause we'll die trying stuff to see if it works...amusing thing is we actually died more before we started pushing ourselves than we do when testing ourselves.

Chi wise, I'm usually feeding only the BB cleric now...why cause DDs/Tanks get the chi skill on the genie, at my lvl a lot of them tell me that they build it fast enough the only time they'll need me to chi them is if they die. Then again I'm sage so I build chi so fast that I'll chi the cleric to max, chi the BM for more HF, glacial spikes or whatever 2 spark skill they're using.

I actually love my lure genie. I'll position the pet put it in statis mode...run ahead pull mob with genie skill as I run past the pet I'll trigger it on the boss or mob, and never get hit. Granted I still lure with pets too but I love messing around the other way too

Aniella - Harshlands

=_=;;....... Uh okei. whats the main poit? Not all what to read 5 pages w alot ussless words that don't tell the main poit =_=*

tweakz

Aniella - Harshlands wrote: »

=_=;;....... Uh okei. whats the main poit? Not all what to read 5 pages w alot ussless words that don't tell the main poit =_=*

I don't git yer poit.

_EngKanTo_ - Archosaur

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I must agree with Tweakz on this one and will even go further, if by lvl 80 you fail to understand your most basic jobs in a squad you have failed. People asking you for squads are either fail themselves or looking for entertainment... This is the problem with people treating MMOs as if they were multiplayer console games. You might as well save yourself the trouble of spamming scarabs if you're that uncommitted to your squad's dps output.

Not amping or pulling? Really?

Pulling, yes I do pull. Amplify & Purge, well, I hardly use it and still my squad get the job well. Failed squad? How? We did our job well and you still consider us as failed? Looking for entertainment? Yes maybe because my Veno is so pretty that it may be the reason why they want me in squad. It's just so happen that you are in a poor failed squad that you have to do everything for them.

Most of the time that I am in the squad, I am the one tanking, pulling and catching. So I would disagree for some people to consider me as failed just because I didn't amplify or purge. Asking me to amply/purge change to fox form, go to the boss, and run back again while I'm tanking the boss and risking the pet which can cause party wipe out is a NO NO to me.

And guess what, I got a random squad last night with another Veno for Pole, she did amplify and unfortunately Pole use aoe and she died on the spot and get angry because the cleric didn't manage to ressurect her. Who is failed? Me because I didn't use amplify or the cleric because he didn't ressurect the Veno? If the cleric ressurect her, there is a chance that we might all die. Amplify and purge are basic, its true but it doesn't mean that you are failed if you are not using it.

My point is listen to what your squad needs instead of listening to these people in the forum telling you that if do not do this or that then you are failed. Maybe these people have so much insecurity with themselves that they have to make other people feel bad for themselves to make them feel good inside.

As long as your squad says that you are good, then you are good. The only people who can tell whether you are failed or not are the people who squad with you and not the people in this forum.

Silvia_Xenth - Lost City

WELL I FOR ONE only play as a fox so all my fox is maxed my human skill like veno scarab lv1 i dont need it if i prefer 2 play purely as a fox and party want my amp over scarab dont u think.

fox is cuter and its harder and more fun have bouth bramble lv1 hp heal skill and lv1 mp
and intersoul switch sprint 2 do i need more nope b:bye

Aniella - Harshlands

Fail = Someone that try to do something but doesn't succed. Well i think all have been failed HAHAHAHAb:chuckle

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

@ _EngKanTo_

There's listening to what your squad needs in a particular instance...there's knowing how to play your veno to the best of your abilities...and there's also knowing the instance and bosses....BH runs people should know what each boss is capable of...

As for your specific reference to the veno that amp'd then died then got mad at the cleric....the veno should have known (especially that this is a BH squad) about the AOE from pole, the fact that it's stronger the closer you are to him and NOT amp'd until right after the AOE was cast...that way you have time to go in amp and get out before the next aoe cycle. As a range attacker the veno would have taken less damage.

Depending on the barb lvl the cleric (assuming only one in squad) may not have been able to break from healing/purify to rez the veno due to the high chance of losing the barb and rest of squad. If you are in a squad like that each member should watch their HP and see what the tank (whether BM or Barb is getting hit for...ie how much his/her hp bar drops per hit) before deciding to make a possible death become them approach on the boss. Granted how much a barb or BM can take from these bosses depends on their lvl (lower 80 vs upper 80 is big difference) as well as their gear.

Interestingly enough I've also noticed that while Nob and Pole both hit with phy damage range shot (or Pole gets off his debuff shot); when pulling rarely do I see a veno go into fox form to pull since it increases the veno's phy def.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

_EngKanTo_ - Archosaur wrote: »

Pulling, yes I do pull. Amplify & Purge, well, I hardly use it and still my squad get the job well. Failed squad? How? We did our job well and you still consider us as failed? Looking for entertainment? Yes maybe because my Veno is so pretty that it may be the reason why they want me in squad. It's just so happen that you are in a poor failed squad that you have to do everything for them.

Most of the time that I am in the squad, I am the one tanking, pulling and catching. So I would disagree for some people to consider me as failed just because I didn't amplify or purge. Asking me to amply/purge change to fox form, go to the boss, and run back again while I'm tanking the boss and risking the pet which can cause party wipe out is a NO NO to me.

And guess what, I got a random squad last night with another Veno for Pole, she did amplify and unfortunately Pole use aoe and she died on the spot and get angry because the cleric didn't manage to ressurect her. Who is failed? Me because I didn't use amplify or the cleric because he didn't ressurect the Veno? If the cleric ressurect her, there is a chance that we might all die. Amplify and purge are basic, its true but it doesn't mean that you are failed if you are not using it.

My point is listen to what your squad needs instead of listening to these people in the forum telling you that if do not do this or that then you are failed. Maybe these people have so much insecurity with themselves that they have to make other people feel bad for themselves to make them feel good inside.

As long as your squad says that you are good, then you are good. The only people who can tell whether you are failed or not are the people who squad with you and not the people in this forum.

That veno was a fail. I've Amped Pole plenty of times and the only thing i need to be careful about is not attacking or using close range fox skills like Leech while waiting out foxform's timer. I did this as a 69 and relied on fox and potting/apos to stay alive. You complain about the enormous effort of going fox, running in, amping, and running back out? You do realize there's more to playing veno that afk'ing at bosses spamming macros don't you? It's been said so many times in these forums, only someone as lazy as you could've missed it. Amping is like adding another DD to the squad. In fact, you would be making a better contribution to your squads if you just stayed fox, attacked (much easier than spamming scarabs) and made sure to hit Amp whenever the cooldown is up. Yes, that alone would contribute better damage.

If your standard of play is not getting killed then by all means you have succeeded at being a fail veno. Why? Because you're useless. Think without Amp that your contribution to damage output is on the same level as those of other classes? You're not pulling your own weight, comprende? The rest of the squad is carrying you. And were you tanking Pole with a freaking pet? Because, last time i checked, even hercs couldn't handle the job. And i'm assuming you do have an herc as otherwise you wouldn't seem so satisfied in the fail role of pet cleric...

Get it, man. If most of the time you're in squads in which you're the one pulling, tanking and catching you've been running with fail players and is no wonder no one complaints about your not doing your job. What a fail guild you must be in... Yea, if you run with competent players your only role is entertainment and not because they like to leer at pixels as you obviously do, but rather because apparently you'll do all the heavy lifting in what i must assume to be a rather comical incompetent fashion.

People like you, that can't do their basic job but nonetheless feel satisfied about being good players, are the worst kind of noob. You think it's the rest of us in the forums that are wrong? Freaking prove it. Amp's effectiveness has long been established and no good player would so gingerly disregard it. And so there's no mistake; that people you squad with say nothing means either they're as ignorant as you or are getting a good laugh at your expense. You may at some point come to change this, but until you realize Amp is not a waste of your time, you're a fail veno and are just wasting room in squads...

XmasBunny_ - Archosaur

xxxdsmer wrote: »

b:chuckleb:chuckleb:chuckle

i totally feel ya on this, and everyone else talking about the lazy venos.
in LC i am this veno with a herc that ends up doing everything, even if there's another veno or two in the squad... i end up luring everything (unless i just decide to take on the whole group of mob), and i even usually end up luring AND catching the bosses myself because the other venos just stand around like "durr... whats we doin in here again?"

if there's a herc and non herc veno in the squad, the herc shouldnt be the one luring, because everytime its stowed and resummoned, it has to be rebuffed which takes even more time and trouble for the one with the herc, the non herc veno should be the one to lure with a good luring pet (take ur pick, kowlin, eldergoth marksman, toughed cub/bear, whatever you like) and the herc should be standing buffed with bash on auto ready to catch the mob and tank it while the squad helps the herc kill the mob, the other veno readies another mob to come to the herc and squad, NOT the herc having to lure every mob, catch every mob, heal herc while buffs are reapplied, then lure another mob to repeat the whole process over again.

the lazy nub venos should just quit playing the class, they're making the pro's look bad b:angry

veno with no herc right here

the problem sometimes is that herc venos don't let us pull -.-' don't ask me why i ask them in the begining of the dungeon "want me to pull?" cause i noticed some of them get offended when i lure like i was trying to show they don't know how to lure or getting in a competition with them :S anyway many times they just don't answer and lure by themselves right after i ask -.-'

anyway i don't get it why ppl say playing veno is easy :S it may be in common quests or grinding but not in a squad. when i am on bhs or tts my cursor runs all over the skill bars while clerics r most times sitting on bb (cause it's needed and i understand it).we do as much as other classes, we need to work and pay attention on what's going on just like them so we r not the "easy class". we r 1 more class with our own responsabilities. and yes it is really fail if u keep insisting on using only venomous scrab like u were a wiz on bosses and elite mobs imo =(

good thread ;D

Solandri - Heavens Tear

XmasBunny_ - Archosaur wrote: »

anyway i don't get it why ppl say playing veno is easy :S it may be in common quests or grinding but not in a squad. when i am on bhs or tts my cursor runs all over the skill bars while clerics r most times sitting on bb (cause it's needed and i understand it).we do as much as other classes, we need to work and pay attention on what's going on just like them so we r not the "easy class".

Playing a veno is easy.

Playing a veno well is hard.

tweakz

XmasBunny_ - Archosaur wrote: »

veno with no herc right here

the problem sometimes is that herc venos don't let us pull -.-' don't ask me why i ask them in the begining of the dungeon "want me to pull?" cause i noticed some of them get offended when i lure like i was trying to show they don't know how to lure or getting in a competition with them :S anyway many times they just don't answer and lure by themselves right after i ask -.-'

I prefer to lure and catch. I like to try to get boss in an ideal spot, and if someone interferes by catching my lure: it keeps me from doing Soul Degeneration -> Amp timely. I also don't always have the target as some venos and even other toons will lure a mob we don't even need in front of the target. I do like other people to lure on Ofotis though because after resummoning Herc, it needs buffs and Ofotis is so easy to steal aggro on.

anyway i don't get it why ppl say playing veno is easy :S it may be in common quests or grinding but not in a squad. when i am on bhs or tts my cursor runs all over the skill bars while clerics r most times sitting on bb (cause it's needed and i understand it).we do as much as other classes, we need to work and pay attention on what's going on just like them so we r not the "easy class". we r 1 more class with our own responsabilities. and yes it is really fail if u keep insisting on using only venomous scrab like u were a wiz on bosses and elite mobs imo =(

good thread ;D

Any class is as easy or difficult as you make it, and this is why people who are typically called fail can be in denial so easy. There is no challenge to leveling at all, which makes all the dings annoying.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Playing a veno is easy.

Playing a veno well is hard.

That sums up everything and it applies to every class to be honest. Well, DDs can stand still and spam skills which is their job but you still need to be careful what skills you use, when and how.

As a Venomancer you don't even have to waste you mana. You can simply sent your pet to do the damage for you and what's worse Venomancers doesn't even use good attack/dps pets for that. That, however, is only 5% of what A Venomancer can do.

If you want to be a good Venomancer and have fun at the same time it's not that easy. To get the full potential of a Venomancer you have to switch between forms and control your pet and its skills at the same time which sometimes to me feels as if I'm playing two characters not one. Even when I'm doing AOE grinding I switch between forms and stuff. If I steal aggro for example I love putting on me Bramble Hood then fox form, I run into the mobs and use Myriad Rainbow, Befudding Mist and Leech if necessary and while I do all that I have my pet switch targets to get aggro back, use all of their skills. Then I switch back to use Noxious Gas, Lucky Scarab, Ironwood...that keeps me busy and I finish the quests before I realise it (well at least when there were less mobs to kill for quests xD). Sometimes I don't even have time to type while killing a boss with a squad because I have to do many things. This is why I love Venomancers. The pets, the looks, the debuffs and because they can switch forms, change skill trees and control so many things at the same time. This is why I always loved doing quests and grinding as a Venomancer while with other classes I found it extremely boring. (except Blademaster that I never tried because it's not my thing)