Are You a Demon or a Sage Cleric?

EthikaII - Heavens Tear

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

oh uh... i dont think the demon IH mp refund works on yourself, only to others.

face/palm not even if im using it on my self xD?
zomg you guys are totaly converting my mind b:infuriated

I like hamburger hand demon D=
b-b-but
plume shell - 85% or..no mp cost

Likes:

Sage-
IronHeart-Sage version recovers an additional 10% more HP
Wellspring Surge-Sage version reduces channeling time to 1.2 seconds.
Revive-Sage version extends range to 40 meters.
Chromatic Healing Beam-Sage version extends area of effect by 5 meters.
Vanguard Spirit-Sage version grants the target an additional 100% physical defense over 10 seconds.(but..only 10 sec..em gone before you know it so whats it matter ? same with magic shell. >.<)
Celestial Guardian's Seal-Sage version recovers 1200 HP over 15 seconds.
Spirit's Gift-Sage version adds 900 MP over 15 seconds.
Plume Shot-Sage version does an additional 800 damage.
Plume Shell-Sage version always absorbs 85% of incoming damage.
Chromatic Seal-Sage version extends the sleep duration by 4 seconds.
Great Cyclone -Sage version reduces enemy's speed by 45% and increases effect duration by 1 second.
Metal Mastery-Sage version always increases Metal magic damage by 25%.
Demon-
IronHeart-Demon version also recovers 300 MP over 15 seconds.
Revive-Demon version cuts channeling time in half.
Purify-Demon version does not consume Chi when cast.
Chromatic Healing Beam-Demon version recovers an extra 600 HP.
Stream of Rejuvenation-Demon version temporarily grants the target an additional 100% bonus to equipment's physical defense.
Plume Shell-Demon version only requires 15 Chi.
Razor Feathers-Demon version reduces cooldown to 6 seconds.
Great Cyclone-Demon version does an extra 600 damage.
Wield Thunder-Demon version reduces enemy's Metal resistance by 30% for 10 seconds.
Tempest-Demon version has a 25% chance to freeze enemies for 8 seconds.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

it s not about saving mp but about survivality.. sage let u tank bit more

...and this ^

its 10vs.12 now D=..what to do what to do ...T~T 2 more lvls and i have to choose idk what i want now.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

mmm... ask yourself, when you reach lv 90-100 whats going to be your primary goal? Like say are you PvP PK oriented, or PvP TW oriented or just PvE etc.... Cause like say for tw if you land into a catapult squad cleric role then obviously alot of the sage skills will benefit u... and if you have a diff. role demon could benefit more...

What are you planning to do in the future as far as roles are concerned?

EthikaII - Heavens Tear

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

mmm... ask yourself, when you reach lv 90-100 whats going to be your primary goal? Like say are you PvP PK oriented, or PvP TW oriented or just PvE etc.... Cause like say for tw if you land into a catapult squad cleric role then obviously alot of the sage skills will benefit u... and if you have a diff. role demon could benefit more...

What are you planning to do in the future as far as roles are concerned?

right now I'm not into tw or pk. im mainly pve. in PvE im just support, when needed and attack, when possible, probably always will be just that. PvP maybe in the future.
side note, I thought it was funny Paramedic mentioned tanking cuase ill do it when i can. XD
Which is why i went with a balenced build in the first place for higher survivability.

Sherae - Lost City

Demon purify is better in my opinion for pvp and tw due to not costing any chi;
the time it takes to cast sage chi skill can be a matter of life or death especially in tw.

Even if you aren't spamming purify you can at least respond in any occasion.

There is no skill i love more than demon res.
The channeling time for a normal res is way to long in most situations and leaves you very vulnerable.
This can be a major factor in territory wars where keeping your men on the front line is important.

Demon chromatic heal is better for any high risk dungeon. As long as your arent running with chickens with their heads cut off they shouldnt stray too far (its kinda hard to stray too far..). There are many people who are "squishy" in nirvana to the boss that spawns adds and the extra heal power benefits them greatly(nobody likes charm ticks). Its been a long time since i ran into people that didnt understand not to stand across the room when a boss aoes.

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

so how did demon IH suddenly become stronger than the sage one.

Think he meant stronger than lvl10 IH for less MP.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

waste more what... food? water? money? chi? coins? I certainly wouldnt say chi cause by the time your endgame your always full of chi. 25% gain vs 75% of no-gain on some skills isnt that helpful either.

what im trying to say, when u puri, shell much- sage would have to use chi-skill just to recover chi he wasted on casting spells, while demon wouldnt have to do it

im just tired of hearing that sages have 'unlimited chi source' while they waste so much of it on basic skills


sage gives more flexibility for sure but thats different story

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

so how did demon IH suddenly become stronger than the sage one.

oops. i mean stronger and cheaper than 10lvl there


but to just tease u demon ih is stronger than sage but with spirit gift b:kiss

tho that shudnt bother cata cler much since u heal one furry butt all the time and big part of bonus from gift is eaten by gift cast time

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

but to just tease u demon ih is stronger than sage but with spirit gift b:kiss

tho that shudnt bother cata cler much since u heal one furry butt all the time and big part of bonus from gift is eaten by gift cast time

yup i dont think they would have the time.


also im hearing alot of demon puri, no chi, tw, yay! But as far as TW goes, never been without chi within and during the assisting chaos, to end up saying 'omg i need chi to puri here!'. If your empty on chi during this mass chaos, then someones not doing their jobs. The times usually without chi end up after you die and port to your base, so its personally never been a problem.

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear

Question to sage clerics: Have you ever had to spam purify on (sage) cooldown?

RedsRose - Lost City

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Question to sage clerics: Have you ever had to spam purify on (sage) cooldown?

I can puri an entire squad just about instantly...

As for chi --> I am rarely, rarely out b:cute



Overall both have their ups and downs. TBH though I am in LOVE with Sage Spirits Gift. Running a 3-3 using MAYBE MAYBE 5-10 mp pots = b:dirty

EthikaII - Heavens Tear

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

I can puri an entire squad just about instantly...

As for chi --> I am rarely, rarely out b:cute



Overall both have their ups and downs. TBH though I am in LOVE with Sage Spirits Gift. Running a 3-3 using MAYBE MAYBE 5-10 mp pots = b:dirty

aaannnnnd now Red has to say this...if im a pver (my faction loves to TT,FF,and randomly kill ourselves in warsong, lol) and only slightly into pvp and will tw maybe once to try it , what should i go ?

"listed preferences a few posts ago" but you guys are rly making me want to change my mind and
Iv had it in my mind to go demon for a long while
i like the - chan in res, no chi cost on purify,the only 15 chi cost on plume shell,and +600 hp on chromatic heal and a few other things in demon, but guardian's seal and spirits girft are like pulling me in..+ sage metal mastery...

RedsRose - Lost City

EthikaII - Heavens Tear wrote: »

aaannnnnd now Red has to say this...if im a pver and only slightly into pvp and will tw maybe once to try it , what should i go ?

"listen preferences above" but you guys are rly making me want to change my mind and
Iv had it in my mind to go demon for a long while
i like the - chan in res, no chi cost on purify,the only 15 chi cost on plume shell,and +600 hp on chromatic heal but guardian's seal and spirits girft are like pulling me in..+ sage metal mastery...

The hardest part now is the availability of skills.

Myself like others really had about 3 basic skills to choose from and went from there. With the release of the 1st Anni packs, the availability of skills really made it possible to see the potential of each culti.

I have always been primarily support in all senses. Is it only recently that I have actually been doing more PvP/DD things. TBH I tend not to have a horrible time in PvP unless ganked by like 4-6 ppl and fml get perma stunned. -.-

In terms of TW: It was one of the main reasons I went Sage. I wanted to be a Cata Cleric and Sage IH was something I had wanted for a long, long time. Sage can hit just as hard as Demon's but the extra "defense" imo is worth every bit of Sage.

Generally on a VERY simplistic level, people compare the two this way:

Sage --> PvE
Demon --> PvP

I don't abide by that, but many do if you want a simplistic answer to start deciding. Keep looking and maybe talk to a few of different culti's of watch them in pve and pvp. You will know once you hit 89

Both can heal, both can dd, both can pve, both can pvp....what skills most appeal to YOUR play style?

Magiere - Dreamweaver

Sage, for obvious afk macro heal and never running out of MP,
with sage IH and sage spirits gift combo,while being able to fully heal the target thanks to the stronger heal. b:dirty

MiliaFallyna - Dreamweaver

Im Sage, gonna go Demon on my other cleric b:chuckle

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

ima Leeroy cleric so i thought sage would be better >_> pumped my gears for full offense and had the skills handle the rest of my survival

Crescentia - Harshlands

lol i can't believe it, both are equal. And have been for 3 days now

I_skateboard - Harshlands

MiliaFallyna - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Im Sage, gonna go Demon on my other cleric b:chuckle

I Thought that there was a sage/demon conversoin

Decus - Dreamweaver

Demon all the way and have NEVER regretted it b:pleased

The deal-breakers for me were Spirit's gift, WT, Tempest, and Stream of rejuvenation; (three of which are conveniently available in page of fate books out of four potential skills, sleep being the fourth) and I bought SG for 6 mil from a catshop

Desdi - Sanctuary

I'm planning to go Sage with my cleric

EthikaII - Heavens Tear

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

ima Leeroy cleric so i thought sage would be better >_> pumped my gears for full offense and had the skills handle the rest of my survival

Thought? are you having regrets now <_>???

I'm 16Sage skills Vs. 13 Demon skills

I went ballenced build to play off my def, atm my phy def sucks monkey butt but TT90 will take care of that i guess (with some "switch to" ornaments when needed) I was going to go with demon to hit harder. but they hit just as hard @-@. I was planning to stop Cleric at 90 to get alts up. obviously Sage probably costs more, which isn't good for me.

Crescentia - Harshlands

WOW So its basically equal guys..

it's almost 50% sage 50% demon o.o
But it also depends on which server, like for pvp and pve i guess b:thanks

SaintDominic - Sanctuary

Sherae - Lost City wrote: »

Demon purify is better in my opinion for pvp and tw due to not costing any chi;
the time it takes to cast sage chi skill can be a matter of life or death especially in tw.

Even if you aren't spamming purify you can at least respond in any occasion.

There is no skill i love more than demon res.
The channeling time for a normal res is way to long in most situations and leaves you very vulnerable.
This can be a major factor in territory wars where keeping your men on the front line is important.

Demon chromatic heal is better for any high risk dungeon. As long as your arent running with chickens with their heads cut off they shouldnt stray too far (its kinda hard to stray too far..). There are many people who are "squishy" in nirvana to the boss that spawns adds and the extra heal power benefits them greatly(nobody likes charm ticks). Its been a long time since i ran into people that didnt understand not to stand across the room when a boss aoes.

Dont forget about the 40m range on sage rez..that could benefit us too ya know.

Yamiino - Heavens Tear

I am sage, why?

1. Cleric is a support class, not a DD, if you want to run a DD go make a Wiz. Sure clerics are powerfull but do you really feel powerfull enough to be able to kill a nix LA-AA veno when they purge you? guess not.

2. Demon cleric skills are mostly based on saving chi / stealing chi, but what would you save if you have a hard time building it up?

3. I heard a lot of "I go demon because I love the red spark", seriously?, you just did the most dumb thing, went for looks not for performance. Yeah sure you can get -% channeling out of it, but... did you know Sage Magic Shell gives 10 secs of -20% channeling? that means you don't even need a spark for the -% LOL.

4. I see a lot of "Sage is good because you always have chi for BB", false, even though it is easier to build up chi yes, you still need some help from genie / venos to build up chi for BB in FF for example. Where your BB will be used very often. Now if sage has a hard time for this, how is demon's side?, worse indeed.

5. Cleric is meant to help a squad, as for it, if heals and protections are increased, the best way to go is sage. Vanguard Spirit gives +100% extra armour defense, that means an important increase of tanker's defence.

6. "Demon revive is better because of the 1/2 channeling", not so true, I have had several scenarios where the range of sage revive is really needed. You can again, get the -20% channeling from sage Magic Shell, + w/e -% channeling you have, not a big difference from demon's, not to mention you get double the range to revive people. VERY handy. And no, not only demon revive gives 0% experience loss on death, also sage revive does it.

7. Ironheart... I hear a lot of "I love demon IH because it builds up my MP", did you know Spirit's Gift gives +300% your IH recovery? Sure demon's is good when you don't have enough time to be casting different skills, but then again, demon is not based on support but DD, why would a demon cleric be healing someone when they just want to "*pew pew*"? b:chuckle


Think about it, see you b:bye

P.S.: I passed for the same process, since I was level 60 I was thinking on going demon, then a friend explained how everything worked, did more research, was changing my mind every day until the day I got to 85, decided to go Sage after looking up every single skill.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

EthikaII - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Thought? are you having regrets now <_>???

I'm 16Sage skills Vs. 13 Demon skills

I went ballenced build to play off my def, atm my phy def sucks monkey butt but TT90 will take care of that i guess (with some "switch to" ornaments when needed) I was going to go with demon to hit harder. but they hit just as hard @-@. I was planning to stop Cleric at 90 to get alts up. obviously Sage probably costs more, which isn't good for me.

yar tbh even i had a hard time deciding. But in the end i filtered out the practical skills (cause really you cant use them all at once, or have time to use them everytime, or always have the perfect timing for it to affect others, as wonderful as they are) and the most used and that lead me to sage. I had 2 goals, to be a high dmg cleric, and have the def (and possibly HP) of a LA. I feel sage allowed me to get the benefits that i could not get with coins.

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear

Yamiino - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I am sage, why?

1. Cleric is a support class, not a DD, if you want to run a DD go make a Wiz. Sure clerics are powerfull but do you really feel powerfull enough to be able to kill a nix LA-AA veno when they purge you? guess not.

Explain how demon clerics are DDs.

2. Demon cleric skills are mostly based on saving chi / stealing chi, but what would you save if you have a hard time building it up?

In PvE, there's always time (and venos) to build chi. In PvP, you have chi pots/genie. Building chi should not be a concern.

3. I heard a lot of "I go demon because I love the red spark", seriously?, you just did the most dumb thing, went for looks not for performance. Yeah sure you can get -% channeling out of it, but... did you know Sage Magic Shell gives 10 secs of -20% channeling? that means you don't even need a spark for the -% LOL.

Magic Shell takes 1.5 seconds to channel and cast; In most cases, it won't even save that much (hint, it's impossible). Spark is typically used in an "oh sht" moment, and in most cases you will not have enough time to cast MS. Also, I love how demon spark is two lines down from demon clerics being DDs.

4. I see a lot of "Sage is good because you always have chi for BB", false, even though it is easier to build up chi yes, you still need some help from genie / venos to build up chi for BB in FF for example. Where your BB will be used very often. Now if sage has a hard time for this, how is demon's side?, worse indeed.

If by the time the shade is dead you don't have at least 1 spark back, you're doing something wrong.

5. Cleric is meant to help a squad, as for it, if heals and protections are increased, the best way to go is sage. Vanguard Spirit gives +100% extra armour defense, that means an important increase of tanker's defence.

Again, when you want +100% def, it's probably going to be an "oh sht" moment. In most cases, right after that VS you're going to be using SoR; if you don't, you probably didn't have to VS in the first place.

6. "Demon revive is better because of the 1/2 channeling", not so true, I have had several scenarios where the range of sage revive is really needed. You can again, get the -20% channeling from sage Magic Shell, + w/e -% channeling you have, not a big difference from demon's, not to mention you get double the range to revive people. VERY handy. And no, not only demon revive gives 0% experience loss on death, also sage revive does it.

Clerics run at 4.8m/s. Sage res gives 12m (no idea where you got double from) extra range. It takes a cleric 2.5 seconds to run 12m. Demon res cuts of 3 seconds of channeling. Do the math. It takes a decent stack of -chan (-16.6% or greater) (don't even mention MS, channel/cast time won't help) to make sage res faster than demon at 40m away, let alone up close. Without any -chan, it's only faster if there are multiple deaths more than 54.4m apart.

EDIT: That 54.4m is assuming the demon cleric somehow doesn't have holy path.
EDIT2: Numbers are a little off, but you get the idea.
EDIT3: I think I've got it, it's 75.2m apart. Bear in mind that this is with the deaths having the shortest possible radius from the sage cleric.
EDIT4: Can't think, forgot the term x.x
EDIT5: This formula compares how fast sage res is compared to demon assuming all the dead bodies are linear (i.e. only forward and back, no lefts and rights)

[COLOR="Red"]x = Distance from cleric's starting position
y = Number of resses
z = -chan

Demon:

y ( 3 ( 1 - z / 100 ) + 1 ) + 2 y ( x - 28 ) / 4.8 - ( x - 28 ) / 4.8

Sage:

Y ( 6 ( 1 - z / 100 ) + 1 ) + 2 y ( x - 40 ) / 4.8 - ( x - 40 ) / 4.8

EDIT6: Note that if x < 28, just ignore it.
EDIT7: Nevermind :S[/COLOR]

7. Ironheart... I hear a lot of "I love demon IH because it builds up my MP", did you know Spirit's Gift gives +300% your IH recovery? Sure demon's is good when you don't have enough time to be casting different skills, but then again, demon is not based on support but DD, why would a demon cleric be healing someone when they just want to "*pew pew*"? b:chuckle

True enough.

Think about it, see you b:bye

P.S.: I passed for the same process, since I was level 60 I was thinking on going demon, then a friend explained how everything worked, did more research, was changing my mind every day until the day I got to 85, decided to go Sage after looking up every single skill.

Thoughts in red.

Yamiino - Heavens Tear

Well:

1. Cleric is not a DD, their nature it to be support based, they can DD yes any class can DD, HOWEVER, I'd rather take a second wizard than a second cleric for DD.

2. Since I'm in HT, I'm talking about PVE.

3. Again, since I'm talking of PVE. Spark on PVE is used for:
a) Nuking / kill faster
b) Purify yourself
c) Save some MP (MP recovery)
d) Heal a lot more

4. Lol, most of the time is not the cleric's fault, but the squad not wiping the monsters on time to be able to drop BB + start IHing the tank to build another extra spark up. You never know who you will be squadding with...

5. Not really, just when I want to save MP, just do vanguard and 1 or 2 IH and done. Not to mention this helps a lot on world bosses.

6. If your run speed is 4.8 m/s at lvl 89+ you're doing something wrong, lol.
Anyway, I didn't say either was better, one is better on some ways than the other, for example:

Scenario A:

A member of your squad was tanking TT2-3 Cosmoforce, yet he/she died, however he/she is @ the other side of the room and the boss on the middle.

Sage: Revive from the other point of the room without moving much (letting the member of the squad get next to the portal where he/she will be safe)

Demon: Try to sneak around the boss so you won't die, when you get near to the player you will ress him/her in no time, yet you will most likely be at the other side when your other members are at the other point of the room, you will need to sneak around again to get back to them.


Scenario B:

A member of your TW squad dies, is a bm/barb.

Sage: Try to hide around the trees so the other faction will not see you and revive from range so it gives you enough time to do it.

Demon: Holy Path into the chaos and try to revive the squad member as soon as he/she died.



As you can see, each has its pros and cons, both are good, and both have that shiny 0% exp loss on death, thats my point. However, demon player seem to say it is way better than sage one, which is ->not so true<-.b:victory

and... lol @ edits xP

7. We agree on that :P

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear

1. What I'm saying is that demon clerics don't have *that* many DD advantages over sage, and the ones that are there are very subtle

3. If you can heal alot more, isn't that support? While choosing it for looks is silly (though it does look pretty cool, you have to admit), it's a completely valid factor for choosing demon

4. It's true that the chi boost is useful in many scenarios, I just don't see it as *that* useful. What I'm trying to say is that demon clerics can get by just fine.

6. Again, while sage res is sometimes great, demon res shouldn't be brushed off too fast. My point is the extra range is fairly situational, while demon res is good overall.

Irage - Sanctuary

5. Cleric is meant to help a squad, as for it, if heals and protections are increased, the best way to go is demon. Demon Stream of Rejuvenation gives +100% extra armour defense, that means an important increase of tanker's defense and is the biggest heal in the cleric's arsenal. Chromatic Healing Beam is needed in many cases for aoe heals, again it's the demon cleric that is given the better big heal.

I always hear people say sage clerics heal better and thus support better than demon clerics just because of the sage ironheart. When in reality the cleric's biggest heals are made bigger for demon clerics, not sage clerics.

For support clerics, demon out-heals sage.

The downside of demon cleric; for those few instances where a sage ironheart would keep the tank's hp topped but the demon ironheart does not, more mana is used because of an occasional Stream of Rejuvination.

Yamiino - Heavens Tear

Irage - Sanctuary wrote: »

5. Cleric is meant to help a squad, as for it, if heals and protections are increased, the best way to go is demon. Demon Stream of Rejuvenation gives +100% extra armour defense, that means an important increase of tanker's defense and is the biggest heal in the cleric's arsenal. Chromatic Healing Beam is needed in many cases for aoe heals, again it's the demon cleric that is given the better big heal.

I always hear people say sage clerics heal better and thus support better than demon clerics just because of the sage ironheart. When in reality the cleric's biggest heals are made bigger for demon clerics, not sage clerics.

For support clerics, demon out-heals sage.

The downside of demon cleric; for those few instances where a sage ironheart would keep the tank's hp topped but the demon ironheart does not, more mana is used because of an occasional Stream of Rejuvination.

Mmmm not really O_o read your skill again...

Demon Stream of Rejuvenation wrote:

Manipulate one's energy to form the Elemental Seal. Reduces your magic defense
by 1800 of equipment value to reduce the enemy's magic defense
by 60% of equipment value. Lasts 1800 seconds.

Demon version temporarily grants the target an additional 100% bonus to equipment's physical defense.

= PVP based, not to mention the cast time it takes you'd be dead by then.

Sage Stream of Rejuvenation wrote:

Heal the target's HP, recovering 1800 plus 60%
of your base magic attack and and additional 1800 HP
over 15 seconds.

Sage version gains 30% extra Chi with each cast.

*gasp* :O it recovers more as sage


About chromatic healing beam, do you really as an Arcane class, need that 600 extra HP healed up? I usually leave all my squad full HP with 1 Chromatic Healing Beam O_o as of the range, I have always found people spreading around where the range is really helpfull, you don't need to move much :P

Research ftw?

b:bye

PS: Yellow mark = lol.
PS2: Can't believe that comes from a 101 cleric rofl.

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear

When you post that demon SoR doesn't heal HP and you don't even notice, something's wrong.
Can't believe that's coming from a 94 cleric. b:chuckle

Yamiino - Heavens Tear

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »

When you post that demon SoR doesn't heal HP and you don't even notice, something's wrong.
Can't believe that's coming from a 94 cleric. b:chuckle

Lol never said it doesnt, in fact I never stated it did not heal at all. lol. Quoted only from ecatomb's.
However, saying demon stream of rejuvenation and overall demon skills out-heal sage? seriously? lmfao.