AoEs

Adroit - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ok for those who still do not see the logic in what I tried to prove, this is how I'll explain it in a more technical view -- be warned though, less layman.

Also I'll be using idealistic variables instead of empirical data -- I used data in my previous post showing the damage, so if you want data, look at that. I'm using variables to make things easier to see WHERE and WHAT I've been focusing on, when looking at that data.

Theory: BT does 2x base magic attack.

Results in: BT gets a greater increase from increasing base magic attack than other spells with 1x base magic attack (like BIDS).

How to increase base magic attack by a good amount under controlled conditions: Triple spark.

Observed effects: BT unsparked does X damage. BIDS unsparked does Y damage.

My theory was THUS: BT sparked does X + S*2 damage (S = spark bonus). BIDS sparked does Y + S damage.

Now, subtract that from the unsparked damage from either spell i.e:

BT extra damage = X + S*2 - X = S*2
BIDS extra damage = Y + S - Y = S

Now, observed effects where thus for THIS result:

21.5k BT (S*2 remember?)
13k BIDS (S remember?)

It's not exactly 13*2, but close, given that there are masteries involved, and random spread.

If you still can't see the proof that BT does 2x base magic attack (hint: THE DAMAGE ITSELF DOES NOT MATTER, ONLY THE SPARK BONUS), and what method I used to prove it, then you either are trolling, or simply cannot comprehend logic.

I'm afraid there's nothing ANYONE can do with the latter on a forum, but you can believe what you want.

My point was done. BT does 2x base magic attack. Refute it sensibly or don't bother posting ****.

at end game.. 95% of your opponents have significantly more pdef than mdef, so you do more damage with MS and BIDS. Sorry to burst your bubble.

edit: Oh I forgot to mention, spark increases weapon damage, not just magic atk.. so again your calculations are too overly simplified to mean anything whatsoever.

fulgida

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

at end game.. 95% of your opponents have significantly more pdef than mdef, so you do more damage with MS and BIDS. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I imagine this depends on your opponent, lots of archers and psychics, for example do not have much pdef. But any damage camparison involving different defenses, which nevertheless ignores defenses, is kind of useless.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

edit: Oh I forgot to mention, spark increases weapon damage, not just magic atk.. so again your calculations are too overly simplified to mean anything whatsoever.

This is the first time I have ever heard of this. How can you tell? And how much does weapon damage increase?

Adroit - Lost City

fulgida wrote: »

I imagine this depends on your opponent, lots of archers and psychics, for example do not have much pdef. But any damage camparison involving different defenses, which nevertheless ignores defenses, is kind of useless.



This is the first time I have ever heard of this. How can you tell? And how much does weapon damage increase?

most archers use two pdef ornaments.. leaving them with a ton more pdef than mdef. I have not gone up against a decently geared psychic, but even then I'd still likely use BIDS because I'm sage and that chance to crit is fkn amazing.

And I can tell because it says so in the description, and on ecatomb.. and I have no idea what else anybody would think. For wizards, it increases weapon damage by 700% (from triple spark).

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

most archers use two pdef ornaments.. leaving them with a ton more pdef than mdef. I have not gone up against a decently geared psychic, but even then I'd still likely use BIDS because I'm sage and that chance to crit is fkn amazing.

And I can tell because it says so in the description, and on ecatomb.. and I have no idea what else anybody would think. For wizards, it increases weapon damage by 700% (from triple spark).

pdef ornament no problem till target is unbuffed (mainly at archer where still with 2 pdef ornament the pdef reach the mdef value if not refined, coz light armor give more mdef than pdef, with +7 refine ts +4-5% pdef absorb than mdef but u can get more profit from spark, also if have sage bids then i prefer that but if dont have....) that not really save him b:surrender
that ton, is how much +pdef? 1k? http://pwcalc.ru/my/?char=52309db9617e5899
(and i use more often the bids too cause crit, maybe dont proc with bids but got time for another 3 skill after that where can crit so its cool).

where changeing everything is the buffs.

Adroit - Lost City

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

pdef ornament no problem till target is unbuffed (mainly at archer where still with 2 pdef ornament the pdef reach the mdef value if not refined, coz light armor give more mdef than pdef, with +7 refine ts +4-5% pdef absorb than mdef but u can get more profit from spark, also if have sage bids then i prefer that but if dont have....) that not really save him b:surrender
that ton, is how much +pdef? 1k? http://pwcalc.ru/my/?char=52309db9617e5899
(and i use more often the bids too cause crit, maybe dont proc with bids but got time for another 3 skill after that where can crit so its cool).

where changeing everything is the buffs.

English please.. I'm not gonna spend 45 mins deciphering this post.

Shevanel - Sanctuary

Yeah I'm sorry shadow, but im having a hard time understanding what you're saying too.

And yeah, has no one read the description for sparks? It's alwayd been an increase in weapon damage, not base magic (which I'm pretty sure some particular wizzie kept mentioning)

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

English please.. I'm not gonna spend 45 mins deciphering this post.

yes, really hard to understand light armor have more mdef than pdef (without pdef ornaments) b:laugh for this really need 45 min.

ornaments do a balance (another side most of them use for interval), and yes have more pdef when you got 2 REFINED pdef ornament (whatever since archer dont got self pdef buff, its not huge difference between mdef/pdef).

And yeah, has no one read the description for sparks? It's alwayd been an increase in weapon damage, not base magic (which I'm pretty sure some particular wizzie kept mentioning)

ofc, idk if somebody think its 700% base mattack because that could be over powered (dont have any skill what increase x% base mattack or pattack, all skill increase only x% EQ damage).
when we say increase the base mattack, i mean its increase the EQ dmg what will be added to base mattack and coz this base battack will be higher, but never said nobody its increase the base mattack with 700% or 100%.

Adroit - Lost City

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

yes, really hard to understand light armor have more mdef than pdef (without pdef ornaments) b:laugh for this really need 45 min.

ornaments do a balance (another side most of them use for interval), and yes have more pdef when you got 2 REFINED pdef ornament (whatever since archer dont got self pdef buff, its not huge difference between mdef/pdef).




ofc, idk if somebody think its 700% base mattack because that could be over powered (dont have any skill what increase x% base mattack or pattack, all skill increase only x% EQ damage).
when we say increase the base mattack, i mean its increase the EQ dmg what will be added to base mattack and coz this base battack will be higher, but never said nobody its increase the base mattack with 700% or 100%.

Iwonderhowhardthisisgoingtobeforyoutoreaditsjustoneofthosethingswhereitisnotworththeefforthuh?

edit:amiright?

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Iwonderhowhardthisisgoingtobeforyoutoreaditsjustoneofthosethingswhereitisnotworththeefforthuh?

then why u reply and waste ur utterly expensive time with trolling?
yea hard to understand but who same busy than u, just ignore it :P

fulgida

Since people were having problems reading your post, I fixed it for you:

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

Pdef ornaments are not a problem if your target is unbuffed. (This mainly holds true for archers where even with 2 pdef ornament the pdef barely reach the mdef value if the ornaments are not refined, because light armor gives more mdef than pdef. With +7 refine archers typically have +4-5% more pdef absorb than mdef. but that can be worthwhile for them because they can get more profit from their spark in PvE. Also if you have sage bids then i prefer that over BT but if you don't have it then of course BT becomes a lot more attractive....) If your target is unbuffed, his pdef will not really save him b:surrender
Anyways, that ton of pdef you were talking about, is how much +pdef for an archer? 1k? http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=52309db9617e5899
(of course i usually use BIDS too because I like my crits, and of course even if BIDS itself does not crit, I usually have time for another 3 skills after which can also crit, so its cool).

But buffs change everything.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

at end game.. 95% of your opponents have significantly more pdef than mdef, so you do more damage with MS and BIDS. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Yes so?

I did say Blade Tempest does 2x base magic attack, that is all I tried to "prove" with it. Whether this damage is half physical, half fire, is irrelevant. Obviously it's gonna do less damage if more of its damage gets reduced, that's fairly logical. :P

If data was like this and BT did 1 damage instead:

BT: 1
BT sparked: 11

BIDS: 1000
BIDS sparked: 1005

My conclusion would have been the same. That BT does 2x base magic attack -- you can see an increase of '10' instead of '5' (simplistic example though, not real data)

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

edit: Oh I forgot to mention, spark increases weapon damage, not just magic atk.. so again your calculations are too overly simplified to mean anything whatsoever.

Nah, I had the same impression at first, tested it with phoenix and divine pyrogram on the same mob. Same increase from both, even though one does 300% weapon damage the other 100%, the spark increase was the same.

Mind you this was a really long time ago, and used double spark (I think I was 6x).

Furthermore if you look at the "buffs" you get they are identical to any "magic attack buff" and even get overwritten by Heaven's Wrath. It doesn't increase weapon damage any more than Manifest Virtue, which is why it's so ****.

Yes I wished it did... I was disappointed when I first tested it back then. b:sad

EDIT: the actual formulas I got from the wiki -- the archer forum is really interesting, people there are really curious about mechanics and stuff, I wish the wizard section was the same.


And Ursa didn't get my sarcastic remark with Kun Kun. Of course I agree with you, that BT is worse on targets with more pdef than mdef, which most in PvP are. What I meant was that BT still does 2x base magic attack, whether output damage is lower or not. Kun Kun was the opposite. Plume Shot doesn't do more damage than BIDS -- it does do more on Kun Kun (infinitely more), but the damage itself is not higher. Just that target's resistances reduce BIDS to 0, it doesn't mean BIDS does 0. Same for the opposite case.

Or put this another way. BT does more damage than BIDS if target has elemental shell. However this says nothing about the actual damage done -- which is damage before reductions.

And I was talking about that. Why? Because the damage after reductions, depends on your target. No point in saying that. :P

Shadowvzs - Lost City

i dont got better than this barb in another server (ofc i dont have insine refine on weapon or jonas blessing etc [genie also only for test few skill or small pk])

1st lets see the 3rd spark+spark+e.poison+sage bt
screenshot
3,7k fire def + 7419 - dmg 11542

now lets see the 3rd spark+frenzy+e.posion+sage bids
screeenhot

yes bt more but anyway this is unbuffed heavy armor user who got more pdef without buff than archer with buff.
4k water def - dmg 11499

if target is unbuffed + you aim 1 ppl then its pretty similiar/or more dmg on most of ppl who have only few thousand more pdef than mdef (if barb is in tigerform then he is pasive pdef buffed :P).

- you can talk again about high refines but i already noticed the refine increase both basemattack/bonus mattack from spark burst(what also will be added to basemattack in character window)/skill eq dmg part.
- att lv or jonas blessing dont really make huge difference.

fulgida

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

now lets see the 3rd spark+frenzy+e.posion+sage bids
screeenhot

Was that a critical hit? or not?

Shadowvzs - Lost City

fulgida wrote: »

Was that a critical hit? or not?

ofc no. You can try too just need more enough spark.
this was crit not, that, +8-9 refine archer with ep buff crit with bt, with water ulti. you could do reallly nice damage with bt (e.poison missed and maybe the 79 too coz a bit kamikaze vs 3 archer +11/+10 weapons)