AoEs

Vipeer - Harshlands

Wizzie have the best aoe and the best dmg?

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Strongest hitting 2-spark AOEs? Yeah.
non-chi good AOEs? Nope. (look @ psychics for that)

Best damage-per-second magic class? Nope.
Best damage-per-hit magic class? Probably with Blade Tempest. (still psychic with lvl100 Stone Smasher + black voodoo can hit pretty hard as well)

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

*scary-1-shot-dragon-of-doom*
gaining chi is no problem since there are genies and the sage path ofc :P

Adroit - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Strongest hitting 2-spark AOEs? Yeah.
non-chi good AOEs? Nope. (look @ psychics for that)

Best damage-per-second magic class? Nope.
Best damage-per-hit magic class? Probably with Blade Tempest. (still psychic with lvl100 Stone Smasher + black voodoo can hit pretty hard as well)

what is your obsession with BT all about? It's not one of those super amazing skills like SAGE BIDS where it would actually make sense to be nuts over it.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

I was talking about highest damage, since it has highest weapon modifier (due to base magic attack x2), it has highest damage potential (of course, it depends on target's resistances also).

Sage BIDS doesn't have more damage than Demon BIDS just better chance to crit. It doesn't mean that it can't crit otherwise -- I was specifically talking only about damage, not usefulness. :P

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

uhm 200 + 200bt = >500bids ?????

highest multipicator???

sage bids has higher damage when you take water mastery into action :P
but the rest is the same ofc... only that my bids wont crit but might leave me without using sparks

Shadowvzs - Lost City

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

uhm 200 + 200bt = >500bids ?????

highest multipicator???

sage bids has higher damage when you take water mastery into action :P
but the rest is the same ofc... only that my bids wont crit but might leave me without using sparks

no............ u forget mobs got lower pdef than mdef exclude few exception. BT the best in dmg in pve this is the facts.

who dont belive try it also in pvp u could pump up the bt like hell with dex genie+spark only problem its vs 1 target but highest dmg skill.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

uhm 200 + 200bt = >500bids ?????

Double base magic attack also. base magic attack = (mag/100 + 1) * weapon damage.

And even bigger potential if you are buffed or triple sparked then BT (1400% weapon damage from spark instead of 700%), I still believe it's the only skill that is for sure the highest damaging if you make a combo (even if impractical!)

Pure_Black - Harshlands

level up more, get sage BIDS+ sage BT, then come back.

500% weapon damage > 2x base magic damage ANY TIME

i use BT alot, don't get me wrong, first doing a BT then a Bids in TW is just rapage, but my bids always does more damge then my BT, because the damage modifier for my wep is HUGE

Ursa - Dreamweaver

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Double base magic attack also. base magic attack = (mag/100 + 1) * weapon damage.

And even bigger potential if you are buffed or triple sparked then BT (1400% weapon damage from spark instead of 700%), I still believe it's the only skill that is for sure the highest damaging if you make a combo (even if impractical!)

NO, it's not double base magic attk. It's a typo, like in many other skills.

Dude, really, you're soo much off when it comes to this class and this game that's simply amazing you don't get killed by your PC when u type on forum.


BT does a bit less dmg than BIDS. MS comes close to BIDS, but still less.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

NO, it's not double base magic attk. It's a typo, like in many other skills.

Dude, really, you're soo much off when it comes to this class and this game that's simply amazing you don't get killed by your PC when u type on forum.


BT does a bit less dmg than BIDS. MS comes close to BIDS, but still less.

ursa really who care about what description say?
lets see few tt boss
http://www.pwdatabase.com/my/mob/14761
http://www.pwdatabase.com/my/mob/20824
http://www.pwdatabase.com/my/mob/14757
http://www.pwdatabase.com/my/mob/14756
http://www.pwdatabase.com/my/mob/14754
http://www.pwdatabase.com/my/mob/14755

and lets add to info the spark what greatly reduce the fire defence (reply to this)

Sage BIDS doesn't have more damage than Demon BIDS just better chance to crit. It doesn't mean that it can't crit otherwise -- I was specifically talking only about damage, not usefulness. :P

in pvp included u make higher damage with bt on unbuffed human barb than with bids if u use spark. BT is more usefull in most of case (not every) till bids a bit more situation depend and what is nice the crit but its onyl for sage wizz, so i could say for a demon or 99- wizz most of benefit the BT cause could pump up better than bids dmg.

y bids do the highest damage in few case in other case the bt if we dont count the crit addon.

Kokki - Harshlands

what level of wiz are you talking about shadow?

at 95+ when you start working on your higher weapon refines, bids will ALWAYS outdamage BT in all cases.

at -90 BT will hurt more, because in PvP you will meet people with less pdef then mdef. And because the 500% from BIDS doesn't really show, your mag att is the larger factor in these.

so show your high level (and refined ) wiz as your avatar to show us you actually know ANYTHING about end game wizards.

also spark is a non factor for pure mag wizards since again, weapon modifiers weigh more then mag att. a LA wizard benefits the most from sparking ulti's because of the already pretty low mag attack.

At one point when i switched weapons, my mag attack was the same then before, but my skills did more damage.....guess why that was.........WEAPON DAMAGE!

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Kokki - Harshlands wrote: »

what level of wiz are you talking about shadow?

at 95+ when you start working on your higher weapon refines, bids will ALWAYS outdamage BT in all cases.

at -90 BT will hurt more, because in PvP you will meet people with less pdef then mdef. And because the 500% from BIDS doesn't really show, your mag att is the larger factor in these.

so show your high level (and refined ) wiz as your avatar to show us you actually know ANYTHING about end game wizards.

also spark is a non factor for pure mag wizards since again, weapon modifiers weigh more then mag att. a LA wizard benefits the most from sparking ulti's because of the already pretty low mag attack.

At one point when i switched weapons, my mag attack was the same then before, but my skills did more damage.....guess why that was.........WEAPON DAMAGE!

u made me laugh.... avatar show anything? lol seriously when i heard so much wizz how fail after oracle...
refine and lv in pwi show how much money u spent in game (exclude u lv slower or nolifeing but atm few wizzard worked hard for his lv and few just use the mommy cash for lv up in 2month).
and anywya if u read back then u can read i play since 2007 and not here started also wizz not here and my wizz lv 100 like my archer (also without exp scroll and got bh only after my wizz was 95+ and archer was 100) :P (http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9135712&postcount=381)

oh and read back i talk about normal case when ppl self buffed not all class buffed and obviously -90% firedef reduce (also stacking with udine) worth more than 100% eq dmg.

i can ask something? when u was last time in gv or hh and tested in pve ur ultis?
and in pvp vs selfbuffed target?

( example lets say u deal 30k damage what worth more? lets say target have 40% def +2k damage or or -25% defence worth more? )

also spark is a non factor for pure mag wizards since again, weapon modifiers weigh more then mag att. a LA wizard benefits the most from sparking ulti's because of the already pretty low mag attack.

At one point when i switched weapons, my mag attack was the same then before, but my skills did more damage.....guess why that was.........WEAPON DAMAGE!

point there dear frined u with pure mag do the highest damage and on that spark also help like increased base mattack, point is the most visible the refine in damage when u are pure mag, when u refine and not only in skill will be higher the dmg but also better profit in base mattack, this is why alot ppl restat at 95+ when got good weapon, not just surviving (that nice too but with dmg view point more advantage the more mag).

(y i use more often the bids but the mian reason cause sage addon is great)

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

NO, it's not double base magic attk. It's a typo, like in many other skills.

What typo? It doesn't even say, it only says half damage actually in the description.

On mobs, which have similar magical and elemental resistances, demon sparked BT does a lot more damage than BIDS. It also does considerable damage on magic resistance mobs. If it did only half of base magic attack on physical, it wouldn't be able to take off 50% of their HP.

Of course, it depends on target's resistances. Just because Kun Kun has elemental resistance doesn't mean BIDS does less damage than Plume Shot, i'm just saying...

Pure_Black - Harshlands wrote: »

level up more, get sage BIDS+ sage BT, then come back.

500% weapon damage > 2x base magic damage ANY TIME

And your proof for this is?

Do you even know the formula for base magic attack and how it is calculated?

If you post screenshots don't forget to post target's resistances also, otherwise point is moot.

Kokki - Harshlands wrote: »

also spark is a non factor for pure mag wizards since again, weapon modifiers weigh more then mag att.

Because 700% weapon damage from triple spark is less than 500% from BIDS right? (just an example)

700% < 500%, interesting math logic.

_______________________


Nevermind I'll demon spark in game when I'll get online soon and see the damage increase percent-wise on BT vs BIDS if you want (both lvl10 of course for me). If you could do the same targeting low lvl mobs or horses or rams w/e, I'd appreciate the numbers (and please divide by 2 if it crits).

So stay tuned for some numbers :P

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Because 700% weapon damage from triple spark is less than 500% from BIDS right? (just an example)

700% < 500%, interesting math logic.

ok acctually we talk about (lets say 450 mag point rank8 weapon+10, lunar ring+r8 ring) then

(+10 r8 lets say we talk about 2k weapon mattack)

base mattack (12213-14519) + 13955.0. + 500% eq (overl)

without spark 14519+13955+10000 = 38474

with spark burst 32103+13955+10000 = 56058

pyroedge 14519+12400.0+8000 = 34919

with spark burst 32103+12400.0+8000 = 52503


diff without spark = 3555 => difference in percentage 9.24% less than bids
diff with spark = 3555 => difference in percentage 6.34% less than bids

then lets talk about last boss in tt3-3 who got 1624 pdef and 2783.

http://www.pwdatabase.com/my/mob/14782

or last in gv pdef 1670, mdef 2863
http://www.pwdatabase.com/my/mob/17368

(for comparation 2673 pdef for a lv100 ppl is 40% [tt boss got more])

now Kokki how much + damage a spark+udine on this boss if ur genie firedef reduce lets say do -70% firedef reduce and 60% from udine vs 60% from udine and + 9% damage?

Borsuc - Raging Tide

NUMBER TIME:

Tested on Frail Blobs in south archo (yeah, was lazy to go to other mobs). Weapon was Requiem Blade+5 with perfect sapphire shard (hey don't blame me it was too cheap!). It doesn't matter what actually matters is magic attack increase.

Only problem is that the weapon isn't a wand and so the random spread is a bit higher. However you'll notice the difference is so huge it's OBVIOUS which of the two gets %1400 weapon damage and which gets %700 only.

6180-7049 unbuffed
14342-16359 demon sparked

BT non-sparked: Frail Blob takes 32777 damage
BT demon sparked: Frail Blob takes 54312 damage

BIDS non-sparked: Frail Blob takes 30645 damage
BIDS demon sparked: Frail Blob takes 43245 damage


Demon sparked BIDS gets around 10.5k damage (without masteries) so 13k or so with masteries.

Demon sparked BT gets a lot more than normal BT: 21.5k!

It is less than twice that of BIDS because the fire mastery doesn't apply to the physical part, it's how I explain it. But it is close to twice the damage increase than BIDS.


So again, I stand by what I said and not only do these numbers show that BT gets twice base magic attack, but it's also fairly logical. The description describes only one type of damage, why would base magic attack work differently than the constant dmg or the weapon modifier? Why wouldn't it be doubled as well?

I would like some testing from higher level wizards as well though I'm 99% sure it has twice base magic attack... saw it too many times and this time I took the time to get the increase and analyse.

Hope this helps anyone who is curious.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

It is less than twice that of BIDS because the fire mastery doesn't apply to the physical part, it's how I explain it. But it is close to twice the damage increase than BIDS.

its applied to whole bt output dmg, indifferent there have phisical and fire dmg, its increase the output dmg.

and no i doubt when u do spark burst then its will be double for bt, just simple got 460 pdef and 570 water def, if half from ur skill is pattack then its hurt more (lets say example 10k fire + 10k pattack hurt more than 6k fire and 6k pattack if u add that point too when mob have 29% less pdef then mdef also less the dmg difference in % if u spark between bt and bids, overall: more pattack and mob pdef same, less dmg difference=> sparked bt better than in comparation).

about lv11 bt/bids. bt get more dmg from lv11 (compared with lv10).

bids get 4306.1 more damage than lv10 and bt 4679.2 more damage than lv10.

Haiz - Lost City

BT hits harder than BiD, that information is so 2009.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Shadow, I think the mob's resistances don't matter at all, seeing as my level was too high for it. Formula is (def/(lvl*40+def)) so it wouldn't make any large difference at all. :P (attacker level by the way, the higher attacker level the more defense you need to have for same % reduction)



And I didn't say BT necessarily hits harder since it depends on your weapon and opponent etc. It does have the largest potential to hit harder, even if impractical, because of the much higher % weapon damage (due to base magic attack twice). It's not often that you triple spark and BT, but this is a potential high-damaging scenario. :P

EDIT: my post above wasn't meant to show BT hits harder (even if it does in my case!) just that it gets 2x base magic attack...

NonameWiz - Sanctuary

Battle of the Numba

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Shadow, I think the mob's resistances don't matter at all, seeing as my level was too high for it. Formula is (def/(lvl*40+def)) so it wouldn't make any large difference at all. :P (attacker level by the way, the higher attacker level the more defense you need to have for same % reduction).

u are sure pve the def/attack from mob/boss side work exactly same than pvp? mobs dont get pvp penalty also i belive no def vs lv penalty too.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

I suppose so. It did seem like my damage was barely nerfed at all, so its resistances must have been pretty low (i.e insignificant reduction). (yes I know damage was higher than base magic attack and calculations, I do have the Jones' blessing though so...)

Of course there is also the problem with random spread, where I assume it was a bigger 'problem' than the actual resistances of a low level mob. Even though both pretty insignificant, I mean the difference between 21.5k and 13k extra damage when sparked is a lot... 65%

(keep in mind that only the difference matters when sparked, not the 'base' damage or final damage... since my point was to show that sparking (which buffs your base magic attack only) gives more to BT than to BIDS, showing that it must use 2x base magic attack

Ursa - Dreamweaver

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

What typo? It doesn't even say, it only says half damage actually in the description.

On mobs, which have similar magical and elemental resistances, demon sparked BT does a lot more damage than BIDS. It also does considerable damage on magic resistance mobs. If it did only half of base magic attack on physical, it wouldn't be able to take off 50% of their HP.

dude, ****, you can't demon spark BT yet , not lvl 11 BT anyway. Of course it does considerable damage on mag res mobs moron, those mobs are broken.

Of course, it depends on target's resistances. Just because Kun Kun has elemental resistance doesn't mean BIDS does less damage than Plume Shot, i'm just saying...

still have nightmares with Kun Kun? stupid kid.

And your proof for this is?

Do you even know the formula for base magic attack and how it is calculated?

If you post screenshots don't forget to post target's resistances also, otherwise point is moot.

Because 700% weapon damage from triple spark is less than 500% from BIDS right? (just an example)

700% < 500%, interesting math logic.

I'm not going to post anything for a moron. You just have absolutely no idea how skills work and the stupid arguments u gave are enough proof of it.



_______________________

Nevermind I'll demon spark in game when I'll get online soon and see the damage increase percent-wise on BT vs BIDS if you want (both lvl10 of course for me). If you could do the same targeting low lvl mobs or horses or rams w/e, I'd appreciate the numbers (and please divide by 2 if it crits).

So stay tuned for some numbers :P

post your room number after they admit you in. I'll send flowers.


and BTW, tripple sparked BT or BIDS are only used in RB and PvE. In TW u rarely have time for it and if you're able to pull such a thing off, you're either bored, going against a non factor guild or just plain stupid (last part fits you perfectly). In absolutely every other scenario there is a better use for 5 sparks.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

dude, ****, you can't demon spark BT yet , not lvl 11 BT anyway. Of course it does considerable damage on mag res mobs moron, those mobs are broken.

and BTW, tripple sparked BT or BIDS are only used in RB and PvE. In TW u rarely have time for it and if you're able to pull such a thing off, you're either bored, going against a non factor guild or just plain stupid (last part fits you perfectly). In absolutely every other scenario there is a better use for 5 sparks.

1. he meant there 3rd demon spark + bt, but fact most of mob/boss got less pdef than mdef.
2. ok i agree with u in this server cause have jonas blessing and easier the refine,

i used in normal tw (pw ms) 3rd spark+bt (ok rarly) but still my only chance (when i was lv98) kill a lv100 archer with +8-10 refines and got a nice luck. ofc not a spamable thing but still sometime u just need little +damage for kill the target instead just tick his hiero. but again it was not in this server.

(in gv useless the 3rd spark+ulti since mattack aura overwrite it)

Kokki - Harshlands

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

Lots of jibberish

I'm laughing so hard at you atm just because you don't know what the new PWI options really do to a wiz now do you

FYI, my wiz was level 90 before BH's came out, my barb was level 90 before BH's came out, so show your avatar or stay a non factor to me.


Yes i have damage calculations in a spreadsheet ( guess i'm a archer as well ), so i have exact number what damage my skills do with what kind of resistances.

My aquadash at +6 and when i just got my rank 6 +6 my magic attack was the same ( off a few 100 maybe ). but still my rank 6 wep does more damage on the same mob with the same skill.

spark is not my most damage with a skill. with calculations if i spark my ulti's, it'll increase damage by ~30%. not the 70% what someone else laid out.

500% scales with weapon refine. if i have a weapon damage of 200, or 300, it's either 1000 or 1500 damage, that's an damage increase of 50%. magic attack is a static amount of damage that gets added to the damage. if my weapon refine goes from 200 to 300, my magic attack only gets increased by a few 100, not 500.

if you want to have my spreadsheet and are serious about this stuff and not just blatantly shouting old stuff which is not relevant anymore, then i'll create it in google document and show it here.

Ursa - Dreamweaver

please do

/10char

Tivas - Archosaur

I believe a zerk crtical armaggedon will outdamage any of our ultimates... so i guess the most powerfull skill is that one..

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Kokki - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm laughing so hard at you atm just because you don't know what the new PWI options really do to a wiz now do you

FYI, my wiz was level 90 before BH's came out, my barb was level 90 before BH's came out, so show your avatar or stay a non factor to me.


Yes i have damage calculations in a spreadsheet ( guess i'm a archer as well ), so i have exact number what damage my skills do with what kind of resistances.

My aquadash at +6 and when i just got my rank 6 +6 my magic attack was the same ( off a few 100 maybe ). but still my rank 6 wep does more damage on the same mob with the same skill.

spark is not my most damage with a skill. with calculations if i spark my ulti's, it'll increase damage by ~30%. not the 70% what someone else laid out.

500% scales with weapon refine. if i have a weapon damage of 200, or 300, it's either 1000 or 1500 damage, that's an damage increase of 50%. magic attack is a static amount of damage that gets added to the damage. if my weapon refine goes from 200 to 300, my magic attack only gets increased by a few 100, not 500.

if you want to have my spreadsheet and are serious about this stuff and not just blatantly shouting old stuff which is not relevant anymore, then i'll create it in google document and show it here.

what is newer here? jonas blessing. that was counted to base dmg? no. another new? nirvana. u got nirvana? no. ty, now you can laugh on yourself mainly because u just reply but dont went bad check the reply to ur post.what ur biggest difference here what never was in anyother server and have relation with mattack :P.

ofc rank6 do more dmg its never was question. why dont realize a bit more complex the damage than 1+1 ? :P

weird just play with this (http://pwcalc.ru/my/?char=2a09448e6caec436) because u get really weird magic attack.

weapon: 1558-1749 base mattack 9532-11957 +11
weapon: 1397-1588 base mattack 8646-11072 +10

difference: 161-161 base mattack difference: 886-885

Tivas - Archosaur wrote: »

I believe a zerk crtical armaggedon will outdamage any of our ultimates... so i guess the most powerfull skill is that one..

yes this is true but that aren't cheaper than weapon refine to us.

spark is not my most damage with a skill.

i said base damage in character window after 3rd spark burst higher than bid dmg with high refined weapon. what hard in this?

if i spark my ulti's, it'll increase damage by ~30%

not this was the point, u said bids > bt but after spark burst bt got more advatage from spark burst than bids.
higher refine or no, got similiar increase the base mattack than 500% eq dmg in bids if u do refine.

refine/base mattack/weapon mattack/500% eq dmg in bids
+0 5704-8129 862-1053 in bids 4310-5265
+11 10654-13079 1762-1953 in bids 8810-9765

difference 4950-4950 900-900 in bids 4500-4500

this is why bullsh!t is this

at 95+ when you start working on your higher weapon refines, bids will ALWAYS outdamage BT in all cases.

so show your high level (and refined )

and let me noticie the last point: Spark > frenzy in 1vs1 on unbuffed target. so bt got more chance for higher dmg also u can test in real on hell world on non element mobs(they also ahve lower pdef).

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not going to post anything for a moron. You just have absolutely no idea how skills work and the stupid arguments u gave are enough proof of it.

Keep holding your head in the sand believing what you want. You don't even have the balls to test it out.

Here's logic for you. Triple spark adds 700% weapon damage to base magic attack. Plain and simple right?

Since all ****ing spells, ALL ****ING SPELLS, lvl10, lvl11, lvl1 spells, ALL OF THEM, use base magic attack, with the exception of those like Emberstorm, then it means all spells benefit same amount increase from triple spark right?



My theory: Blade Tempest does 2x base magic attack.

How to prove it: Increase base magic attack, get the difference between unsparked damage and sparked damage, do the same to BIDS or any other spell with 1x base magic attack, and compare.


How about you prove it that BT doesn't do 2x base magic attack instead of bashing people? You are pathetic, please do not EVER apply in a scientific job, I don't want failed products when I buy one.

EDIT: Added a follow-up post explaining more since I'm nice like that for people to see logic.

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Tivas - Archosaur wrote: »

I believe a zerk crtical armaggedon will outdamage any of our ultimates... so i guess the most powerfull skill is that one..

Well, there be only one solution.....
Can we has zerk BIDS? b:beg

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Ok for those who still do not see the logic in what I tried to prove, this is how I'll explain it in a more technical view -- be warned though, less layman.

Also I'll be using idealistic variables instead of empirical data -- I used data in my previous post showing the damage, so if you want data, look at that. I'm using variables to make things easier to see WHERE and WHAT I've been focusing on, when looking at that data.

Theory: BT does 2x base magic attack.

Results in: BT gets a greater increase from increasing base magic attack than other spells with 1x base magic attack (like BIDS).

How to increase base magic attack by a good amount under controlled conditions: Triple spark.

Observed effects: BT unsparked does X damage. BIDS unsparked does Y damage.

My theory was THUS: BT sparked does X + S*2 damage (S = spark bonus). BIDS sparked does Y + S damage.

Now, subtract that from the unsparked damage from either spell i.e:

BT extra damage = X + S*2 - X = S*2
BIDS extra damage = Y + S - Y = S

Now, observed effects where thus for THIS result:

21.5k BT (S*2 remember?)
13k BIDS (S remember?)

It's not exactly 13*2, but close, given that there are masteries involved, and random spread.

If you still can't see the proof that BT does 2x base magic attack (hint: THE DAMAGE ITSELF DOES NOT MATTER, ONLY THE SPARK BONUS), and what method I used to prove it, then you either are trolling, or simply cannot comprehend logic.

I'm afraid there's nothing ANYONE can do with the latter on a forum, but you can believe what you want.

My point was done. BT does 2x base magic attack. Refute it sensibly or don't bother posting ****.