Archer are DD??...

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  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    calculated.. in general if claw archer hits 5 htis/sec archer hits 2hits/sec at a same time,
    but average dmg (+10 fist/bow) with the bow its 11,5k and with the claw its 3,5k or:
    archer with those 2 hits makes: 23k dmg
    claw archer with 5 hits makes: 17,5k dmg
    having in mind archer with a bow trying to tank will hit only 11,5k dmg a second (50% less dmg at close range) - only then its better for them to use claws as DDs, at close range..
    all calculations i did having in mind Heaven shatterer + 10 as bow and striking dragon +10 as fists (claw/fist = w.e) and using demon spark - archers can do that too permanently but have to use cloud eruption..
    so in general normal archer attack is better, but if fists do not benefit from bow mastery (75% more dmg) - fists fail.. and if they do benefit - fist archers must have at very least -0,4 interval or normally -0,6 interval to keep up with normal archers in dmg dealt.

    but all those calculations are if a mob/boss has 0 defence.. since its usually not the case, defence is a factor making dmg reduce - archers deal more dmg per hit so they get more reduced dmg, this way fists suffer less making more attacks with less dmg reduction..
    so in general - w.e b:victory both normal and fist/claw archers are good
    but in my oppinion normal archers are better DDs (even w.o 75% bow mastery) unless boss has Huge amounts of physical resistance, normal archers cant tank like that tho b:bye
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »
    calculated.. in general if claw archer hits 5 htis/sec archer hits 2hits/sec at a same time

    Um... no?

    To get 5 attacks per second with fists or claws you need -0.5 interval. Base attack rates for archer weapons are:

    Crossbow: 1.6 seconds per attack
    Bow: 1.5 seconds per attack
    Slingshot: 1.4 seconds per attack.

    Fists and claws start out being twice the speed of a slingshot, and often a claw archer uses fists or claws with -interval to get to 5 attacks per second.

    Anyways you need -0.9 interval to get a slingshot to 2 attacks per second. I believe a demon wearing every possible bit of -interval gear and their own triple spark, and using a wind and clouds gets -0.8 interval, which makes them equivalent to a fist or claw user with no interval gear in terms of attack rate. Also, even with every chi gaining trick I can think of you would still need a few venos feeding you sparks on cooldown (using good and careful coordination so no fed sparks are wasted) to match the chi gain rate of a 5 attacks per second fist or claw user.
  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    0,77 - heaven shatterer
    1/0,77 = 1,3 aps (having -0,6 interval its smth like 0,7 aps)
    so
    1/0,7 = 1.43 aps
    so
    1.43x1,25 = 1.79 aps with demon spark, while claws get around 5aps with -0,6 int gear

    with -0,9 its smth like 1/0,4= 2.5 aps and 2,5x1,25 = 3.125 attacks per second

    so in general if im a god and have huge interval - ultimately i beat claw/fist cos max game speed is 5aps.
    if im nub and have no interval (my case) - i would totally fail choosing fists/claws cos they are not even 2x faster having 0 -int gear..

    so claws are only good having -0,4 to -0,6 interval gear, and even then only vs bosses with high physical resistance
    also there is a secret weapon for archers that i dont have - demon quickshot with 30% faster hits ;)

    and no - dont need veno, cloud eruption is enough.. without interval gear - at all - i get 1 spark only by shooting, and another 1,3 sparks by cloud eruption (no str genie), and i use xbow w.o interval.. so with bow or with some 1 peace of interval gear i can maintain demon spark 24/7 using only cloud eruption, just taht its cooldown takes slightly longer then demon spark lasts
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    your 100% wrong i cant keep demon spark up useing my claws w/-int and cloud eruption for any more than 2 demon sparks in a row so i call BS on you
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »
    0,77 - heaven shatterer
    1/0,77 = 1,3 aps (having -0,6 interval its smth like 0,7 aps)
    so
    1/0,7 = 1.43 aps
    so
    1.43x1,25 = 1.79 aps with demon spark, while claws get around 5aps with -0,6 int gear

    with -0,9 its smth like 1/0,4= 2.5 aps and 2,5x1,25 = 3.125 attacks per second

    so in general if im a god and have huge interval - ultimately i beat claw/fist cos max game speed is 5aps.
    if im nub and have no interval (my case) - i would totally fail choosing fists/claws cos they are not even 2x faster having 0 -int gear..

    so claws are only good having -0,4 to -0,6 interval gear, and even then only vs bosses with high physical resistance
    also there is a secret weapon for archers that i dont have - demon quickshot with 30% faster hits ;)

    and no - dont need veno, cloud eruption is enough.. without interval gear - at all - i get 1 spark only by shooting, and another 1,3 sparks by cloud eruption (no str genie), and i use xbow w.o interval.. so with bow or with some 1 peace of interval gear i can maintain demon spark 24/7 using only cloud eruption, just taht its cooldown takes slightly longer then demon spark lasts


    Again your calculations are wrong.



    Demon spark works by:


    (1-rate) times your seconds between attacks.



    So, when you demon spark using claws its 0.52 seconds per attack - which translates (rounding up) to 1.82 attacks per second.




    Furthermore, once you get 4 attacks per second using spark you can permanently spark. Meaning Claws will deal 6 times their damage for each hit. What does this mean - it means they deal more damage than your bow ALL THE TIME. Which doesn't even factor in the fact they already hit more times.


    CV Claws:


    498~673 base becomes 2988~4038.


    Thats more damage than a +10 refined bow.


    If you +10 refine a CV Claw:


    966~1141 becomes 5796~6846 sparked.


    Better than a +12 refined Warsoul bow.





    No bow archer could ever keep up with that rate of damage no matter how much interval they had.
  • Brigid - Harshlands
    Brigid - Harshlands Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    498~673 base becomes 2988~4038 +100% of weapon damage for Strength = 3486-4711.


    Thats more damage than a +10 refined bow.
    Per hit, no it's not. I'm going to do some major rounding because I'm lazy, but here goes:
    An unrefined CV bow is about 800-1500, +300% or more from Dexterity, +60% from Bow Mastery, so ~3680-6900 per hit versus ~3500-4700 per hit for the claws.

    The higher damage comes from the fact that you're hitting at 3-4 times the speed of the bow, not from higher individual hit damage.
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »
    Per hit, no it's not. I'm going to do some major rounding because I'm lazy, but here goes:
    An unrefined CV bow is about 800-1500, +300% or more from Dexterity, +60% from Bow Mastery, so ~3680-6900 per hit versus ~3500-4700 per hit for the claws.

    The higher damage comes from the fact that you're hitting at 3-4 times the speed of the bow, not from higher individual hit damage.

    Okay, factoring in masteries per hit it is not - but notice the difference between the minimums arent that big.


    But you are also wrong that the higher damage comes from interval alone.


    If you dont spark to increase your damage output by a factor of 6, claws dont out damage bows. You can try it out for yourself.


    The only reason you achieve a minimum of 4 attacks per second is so you can hold a permanent spark.
  • Elapidae - Dreamweaver
    Elapidae - Dreamweaver Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    you are lvl50-55 u cant tank a **** yet lol you will stay DD till lvl95 after that u can prolly tank everything. with lvl55 u never been in TT or many fbs. i mean look...fb39 guys dont hit hard...after fb69 u can get one hitted. DD is DD u can call urself a tank if you tank big guys in squad and not mobs. if you cant kill mobs 5 lvls above ur lvl then u fail. me as cleric at lvl30 killed mobs 15lvls above me (physical one ofc - if anyone remember the quest) and i didnt had legendary gear whatever **** cause back then we werent that lucky to get any cheap molds....remember cala axes mold did cost 5mil and now 300k b:cry
  • XxRaynaHeart - Sanctuary
    XxRaynaHeart - Sanctuary Posts: 366 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    1) Archers are DDs. Period. Stop thinking they're not because you can't nuke everything with 1 hit. You're damn level 50-55, you obviously can't do 15k damage like you want to.

    2) Mobs have resistances too. Duh.

    3) Just because you have things like a Legendary bow and that you're pure dex, doesn't mean that you actually know how to play your class. It's a matter of experience.

    Clearly, troll-engorged OP.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    MizukiMinoru ll Charisma Executor ll Active
  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    ok how is this possible.. pw calculator shows that all archer can get using all -int gear is 1 attack per second with a bow.. in this case bow only better if it has bow mastery 1,75 effect and fists/claws have not.. and only if claws are deicide and bow is regen nirvana.. else striking dragon beats all..
    its bad, cos now have 2 choices - make claw build and farm stuff fast or make normal archer and pk/tw, cos claw archer is definately not a tw material :>
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    umm tell chezedude that claw archer is not TW material... as hes ripping your face off at 5 a/s
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ignathas - Sanctuary wrote: »
    its bad, cos now have 2 choices - make claw build and farm stuff fast or make normal archer and pk/tw, cos claw archer is definately not a tw material :>

    .... Or you can not be stupid and have just enough str to use claws while keeping the rest of your stats in Dex so that you can also carry around a bow.
  • Ignathas - Sanctuary
    Ignathas - Sanctuary Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    ye thats what im thinking, i will definately not go 250str build.. either 148 str or pure dex archer only.. and Lol - how will he hit me 5aps if he cant even reach me by the times hes dead.. well ok he can use winged blessing 1 time - i can run and he cant stun while he does that cos he cant use skills (fail) - but after that - i stun him and hes dead.. and also tw is not 1vs 1 so pretty much a claw archer is a done deal.
    also i dont wanna str that much, cos dexterity gives: attack, evasion, accuracy, crit rate - and i have 500, so hit sometimes even more then cashshopper archers b:dirty just that 4k hp at lvl 100 is quite squishy.. and no resistances, no defence... but still dont wanna claws/fists, just that its faster in nirvana and def. bosses only and thats the reason im considering it..
    claw/fist archer is 100% no use against anything else but nirvana and bosses, in every other occasion they fail badly, and str archer with a bow - come on... with fists they are quite good dds tho, know some, but definately only pwe bosses nothing else

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