Sage/Demon BM

oyamajio

What day is it today? Still arguing over sage vs demon lol. Theoretically you can argue all days long. Practically there's one and only one godly path- demon. b:bye

Rome - Harshlands

lol you wish buddy. its all how you play your warrior ^^ b:bye

saul25

im only going to use axe and poles. im NEVER going fists. so what do you think is better for axe and pole

Dezto - Harshlands

I don't get what all the fuzz is about Demon vs. Sage masteries and buffs.

When I compare my endgame build using pwcalc with Sage and Demon buffs it's not even worth debating.

Fully buffed with lvl11 Aura of the Golden Bell and lvl 11 Alter Marrow Magical:
Sage gets 1% more mdef but 1% less pdef.
Demon gets 1% more pdef but 1% less mdef.

Everything else is just about how you build your toon and refines.

Sage does about 300 more damage (with fists) then Demon but Demon gets 1% crit.

What I do get is why Demon is better for axe because of the lvl11 skills.
Roar of the Pride - Demon.
Drake Bash - Demon.
Drake's Ray - Demon.
Highland Cleave - Sage.*
Fissure - Demon.
Heaven's Flame - Demon.
Chi - Sage (Master Li's Technique)**

Most of the other skills are just as bad or good, so either way it really does not matter.

*Demon is still decent but Sage is better.
**As an axe/fist BM Chi really should not be a problem.

kenlee

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

My mdef is 10.2k not considering the 50% reduction of mdef charms... if you were on LC you would need to spam them as well... Ehee gush crit a BM (not pmarrowed) for 16k. Sure, that's an extreme example, but with the +30 attack blessings, 10k+ hp means little in TW against archers and mages with +10-+12 Nirvana, Rank 8 and CV weapons. We have 20k+ HP barbs base buffing and archers with +10 cv bows sitting in reserves... The difference between sage and demon buff is negligible. It won't change the outcome of either side.

One place where I do see sage being better would be a straight vit-axe PvP build with very highly refined Nirvana axes... since the skills do hit harder, someone who knows how to play would be pretty brutal.

if you check out his tw videos, i think rome already know the taste of a r8 +12 mage
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4192/romevsxulin.jpg

Michael_Dark - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

if you check out his tw videos, i think rome already know the taste of a r8 +12 mage
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4192/romevsxulin.jpg

lol. We both have about 10k hp as well. Mages and archers are so broken in TW. :<

Rome - Harshlands

haha ya r8 +12 +30 att blessing mages hurt especially with 0 buffs on. /RAGE b:shocked

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Riistetyt - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Axe / Spear - Sage
Sword / Fist - Demon

Lol no.

Demon Heavens Flame lasts nine seconds. Demon Glacial Spike makes all crits for 5 secs. Demon Axe has more stun lock because with hell DB and hell Roar, stun adds to 13.5 and both cooldowns add up to 14 secs. Don't really need to rely on aoelian.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

@Kniraven sad to say master lis technique is rather not usefull because with fists, -.2+ int and cyclone.. you can have 50 chi in less then *1 minute*

@TheDan you can do the same trick with Cyclone Heel as you do with DBB. You do that with cyclone, then you can get in more hits and save 2 secs of wasted time.

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

But the main reason I converted to Demon was not because of Damage, I could care less about damage as a support BM in group PvP... To me, Demons have a nice spike buff, and when used correctly would keep me alive. Sage Marrows do have the advantage in more Magic Defense but this is only useful against pure magic users. Demons have the advantage to have balanced defenses in group PvP. Demon Skills have more potent adds to them, and Sage mostly has Chi conservation and maybe more damage on certain skills. Because Sages have the chi advantage, they may stun more often, not necessarily more potent, but more is more, just depends what you want.

This ^ . There are so many ppl out there that say they go demon JUST for the demon spark attack speed increase but they don't even bother much comparing sage vs demon skills .

Let's take stun-locks for example which has always been and still is a huge factor of the bm class :

Relying on a 25% chance for drake bash not to use a spark? Or a 10 less chi usage on a stun that u use every 15 seconds ? You guys know that stun-locking w/o demon stuns requires the use of a stun like aeolian blade with only 50% chance of success ( I really....really .. really HATE aeolian blade , my luck with it is just sad ) to stun for 15 secs while a demon can do that just using the roar ( which will now 100% succeed as well ) and drake bash for a 14.5 sec stun which is doesn't rely on a 50% chance skill to pull off .

And lol @ 15% more phy res from bell overall than extra 75% ( 60% vs sage bell ) for 15 secs . Back when I played a wiz on sanc and I was looking at bm skills ( since it was my 2nd favorite class ) I didn't give much attention to a 15s extra demon phy buff . But it has so many uses , pvp & pve .

Even when you're just 90 and are having a difficult time tanking some bosses or still doing frost runs , or what not instance , recasting bell for the phy buff is just awesome & helps all of the squad stay alive .

Dan already stated it's use for TW , you get purged allot and you don't wanna marrow mag w/o bell on or you'll phy res is gonna be just sad . It's PWI 2010 where you're not safe from phy dmg anymore as a HA class so that 15 sec spike phy res is incredibly useful .... and I could say the same happens in mass pk fights even thought quite less .

I also found it very useful while waiting for sins to come out of stealth & attack ya in pk ( hell could say the same for a duel too but those don't mean much ) . Spamming bell every 15s and keep that +75% phy on really annoys some of them :P

I'd rant more but everything has pretty much been said . I think this thread had enough long rants to read already b:surrender

TheDan - Sanctuary

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

@TheDan you can do the same trick with Cyclone Heel as you do with DBB. You do that with cyclone, then you can get in more hits and save 2 secs of wasted time.

I'm aware of that; however... when you are sage 5.0, the cyclone heel glitch + DBB glitch is actually slower than cyclone heel regular + DBB glitch due to the weapon change delay when having to switch back to fist to recast a skill on the same weapon branch.

I'd much rather DBB glitch + GS glitch if we were talking about unsparked DPS though.

cinnastix

Lucifer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

no reason to go sage, go demon. Extra attack speed and u can perm demon spark, plus u cant reach 5.00 attack speed without demon spark =/

You definatly can reach 5 APS without demon spark... Demon spark gives 25% extra attk speed. An apoth pot does just as much as that... I believe u can get the same with relentless courage Genie skill too... check me on that though.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm aware of that; however... when you are sage 5.0, the cyclone heel glitch + DBB glitch is actually slower than cyclone heel regular + DBB glitch due to the weapon change delay when having to switch back to fist to recast a skill on the same weapon branch.

I'd much rather DBB glitch + GS glitch if we were talking about unsparked DPS though.

b:puzzled I know maybe a bit of topic. But can you explain how to work that canceling glitch? b:avoid

Ranfa - Dreamweaver

Press skill, immediately switch weapon then switch back. If you are successful the animation won't happen but you will get the effect (still uses mana though).

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Ranfa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Press skill, immediately switch weapon then switch back. If you are successful the animation won't happen but you will get the effect (still uses mana though).

Even hf & sim skills?
Does it work if I just take weap of?

Asperitas - Lost City

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even hf & sim skills?
Does it work if I just take weap of?

From what I know, it only works with skills that give you some sort of self buff, so for example, cyclone heel, drake breath bash, demon glacial spike. I don't think it works to just take off your weapon when cancelling cyclone heel and drake breath bash because those skills are still usable when unarmed.

Abuelmer - Archosaur

just asking if there way to use cyclone heel without cancel my spark (demon) i know it cancel my spark and does it cancel sage bm spark? u.U

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Over a year old necro.

Cyclone overrides the speed buff of demon spark and replaces it with its lower speed. It doesn't effect the 500% spark damage. Sage spark doesn't give a speed buff so there is nothing to overwrite.

Deaths_Devil - Raging Tide

Demon vs Sage bla bla its how YOU play take a look at the skills urself ppl go Demon just becouse the spark mostly but with Relentless courage u ca nget 5.0 aps too so stop saying demons better a Sage BM can survive longer then a Demon BM in TW tahts a fact and if i am not wrong one of the best BM Pkers in LC server is sage am i right

TheDan - Sanctuary

Deaths_Devil - Raging Tide wrote: »

Demon vs Sage bla bla its how YOU play take a look at the skills urself ppl go Demon just becouse the spark mostly but with Relentless courage u ca nget 5.0 aps too so stop saying demons better a Sage BM can survive longer then a Demon BM in TW tahts a fact and if i am not wrong one of the best BM Pkers in LC server is sage am i right

It's a fact that Sage BMs survive longer than Demon in TW? Kakaka, that's news to me, where are the facts? I'd like to see a 7x BM that hasn't reached culti yet enlighten me. I was a sage BM for 1.5 years before going demon, and the sage mage marrow = death in TW because of the archers. I'd assume it's more severe with the R9 archers now. Demon bell + mage marrow actually keeps me alive much longer in TW as it's more balanced to survive from sin gank/archer gank/Arma/etc. It's probably going to vary a bit for me since my server is stacked with more archers sins and barbs, so I prefer balanced survivability. Maybe if your server is more heavy on casters and don't have many of those classes, sage marrow might work out for you, but it clearly isn't a fact as it's debatable whether balance survivability is better or more extreme survivability slants.

5APS is pretty much limited to PvE without the attack levels of R9. There are many other reasons people go demon from sage as I did other than just the demon spark. Main reasons being Demon HF is longer, Demon Roar cooldown shorter and won't miss, Demon Drake Bash longer, Demon sutra is epic, Demon fissure increased slow, Demon bell, and Demon marrows all seemed better suited for PvP. Only downside is that every genie besides some 1v1s require cloud eruption. Relentless courage on a genie is stupid tbh 150 or some BS, costs way too much energy and only lasts like 8 seconds. Trust me, I tried as a sage, the skill blows.

I see sage has better base damage and crit from Cleave, but damage isn't so important to me as a support class role. I see the more proficient stuns, debuffs, and balanced survivability as more suited for a support BM even with a chi handicap since cloud eruption has fixed most of that.

In no way, shape or form, do I assert that it's a fact that Demon is better than Sage, because that's highly subjective due to external environmental factors such as what the class base of your server is, but I have my preferences when it comes to my defined role.

_IronBlade_ - Harshlands

I Like Sage , tho many ppl say sage sucks because no aps , I Like it and Im doing pretty well as a sage Bm b:thanks

TheDan - Sanctuary

_IronBlade_ - Harshlands wrote: »

I Like Sage , tho many ppl say sage sucks because no aps , I Like it and Im doing pretty well as a sage Bm b:thanks

Sage can be good in long term PvP/TW because of the chi regain skill as well as cheaper roar than demon. But demon seems to be better in 1v1 because of the control skills.

They probably were referring to PvE because of lack of demon spark for fist/claws though. But who gives a **** about PvE these days... I've probably done Nirvana/TT 1000 times already. PvP is where it's at pretty much.