Sage/Demon BM

saul25

say which one you like better and why.

Rome - Harshlands

i did....eh....i like sage for axe warrior due to the magic marrow being so high, and pdef bell increasing pretty good. also sage roar costs less chi to use which is nice to have a little extra chi. the chi skill is also very useful =P

Wyver - Harshlands

Rome - Harshlands wrote: »

alot depends on what kind of warrior you want to be....fist/claw warrior...axe warrior. poleblade... sword...all is up to your build and weapon choice. ecatomb.net tells alot about the different attributes each sage/demon add to each skill b:victory

think you misread what he/she said

Runemine - Dreamweaver

Ya he just wants know what you like and why basically a vote.

GO SAGE!!! =P

Riistetyt - Heavens Tear

Axe / Spear - Sage
Sword / Fist - Demon

Okeano - Harshlands

Let's please not have another thread like this. Use the search button please.

Riistetyt - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Axe / Spear - Sage
Sword / Fist - Demon

What? LOL.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Demon - Better stuns, Heaven's Flame, Glacial Spike. Seems to be better for the things I'd use my BM for. Also a sexy crimson sparkb:dirty

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Good demon skills: Roar, marrows, spark, Drake's Bash, HF, Myriad, Glacial, Drake's Ray
Good sage skills: Bell, masteries (difference is not much), Sutra, Shadowless kick, Farstike

I think that says it all. Sage BM is only good if you are a spear BM.

Lucifer - Dreamweaver

no reason to go sage, go demon. Extra attack speed and u can perm demon spark, plus u cant reach 5.00 attack speed without demon spark =/

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Sage BM was only a good choice pre-annipacks when you weren't likely to find most of your lvl 11 skills.

Demon Roar never misses and faster cooldown. 9 second dragons. Demon magic marrow wins. Drake Bash 7.5 seconds.

Especially wtih the Jones Blessing... the little damage increase you would get with Sage Masteries is negligible... while the Demon Masteries gives you an extra crit which would take you an extra 20 stat points to get.

Endgame is fist/axes. TW BM = Stuns and Dragons. PvP/PvE BM= Fist. In both, demon wins.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Sage BM was only a good choice pre-annipacks when you weren't likely to find most of your lvl 11 skills.

Demon Roar never misses and faster cooldown. 9 second dragons. Demon magic marrow wins. Drake Bash 7.5 seconds.

Especially wtih the Jones Blessing... the little damage increase you would get with Sage Masteries is negligible... while the Demon Masteries gives you an extra crit which would take you an extra 20 stat points to get.

Endgame is fist/axes. TW BM = Stuns and Dragons. PvP/PvE BM= Fist. In both, demon wins.

Two questions:

1) I know that lvl 11 skills were hard to find, but what exactly is the reason people went sage?
2) Would you (or anyone for that matter) suggest going sage if you can't afford the best demon skills (marrows, HF and roar)?

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Two questions:

1) I know that lvl 11 skills were hard to find, but what exactly is the reason people went sage?
2) Would you (or anyone for that matter) suggest going sage if you can't afford the best demon skills (marrows, HF and roar)?

Since you weren't likely to get most of your lvl 11 skills, mostly the lvl 92 ones, the chi skill and buff were considered more important... and fists with stacked -int wasn't really a factor back then so the attack speed increase wasn't as desirable as the damage reduction buff.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Since you weren't likely to get most of your lvl 11 skills, mostly the lvl 92 ones, the chi skill and buff were considered more important... and fists with stacked -int wasn't really a factor back then so the attack speed increase wasn't as desirable as the damage reduction buff.

Makes sense. I've been thinking which one to choose: demon for spark or sage for free chi. At current rate I won't be able to afford any int gear (or any sage/demon 'killer' skills) so that's not as cool as it could be. I'd like to go demon though, but if all I'm getting is a better spark that I will use only on duels that takes like 2 fights to charge it doesn't sound right thing to do. 50 chi per minute isn't anything special either, but would help me use HF.

Either way, you can always change culti at 100. b:chuckle

TheDan - Sanctuary

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Good demon skills: Roar, marrows, spark, Drake's Bash, HF, Myriad, Glacial, Drake's Ray
Good sage skills: Bell, masteries (difference is not much), Sutra, Shadowless kick, Farstike

I think that says it all. Sage BM is only good if you are a spear BM.

I don't get why everyone likes sage bell so much, when I was a Sage BM, the difference between sage and demon bell was like 800 phys def. As far as I'm concerned, 800 phys don't doesn't determine life and death in group PvP. Demon bell when you're getting ganked, which can spike your phys def up by about 5K+, can.

I've been a Sage BM for nearly 2 years and I've been Demon 1 week, and I've gotta say hands donwn I don't regret going Demon one bit. I've learned so many new tricks as a Demon BM already. How many Demon BMs have converted to Sage? And how many Sage BMs have converted to Demon? There's a noticeable difference for end game BMs with 20 Sage skills learned to switch over to Demon.

Demon Drake Ray = 12 Meters, Tiger Leap = 16 meters = I can leap and Roar of pride immediately without moving because that means I'm only 4 meters away.

Sage Drake Ray = 10 Meters, Tiger Leap = 16 meters = walk 2 steps to close in from 6 meters which gives your enemies more time to react and just walk out of range.

Useful for a Cat BM that rushes stuns and stuff..

incubus69

I've always been a Demon BM.

Sage BM have slightly better skills (difference is not big, like Bell, 800-1K difference).
The only thing i envy them is vigor it is really useful.

BUT

Demon BM has speed, can stunlock, better dragons, better range, ... well everything a BM is good for.

I would say that the demon skills don't increase "overall" skills like Sage (bit more dammage, bit more defense, more vigor), but they give crits, few seconds more, range, speed, stun, ... All what can make the difference in a PK situation.

Also, Sage BM say "Sage better for TW" ... i wonder, Demon BM stun for sure, they kill faster because of speed and are not less strong than sage.

When i ask Sage BM : "Why did you go Sage ?" They say : "Better skills, better for axe, vigor" ... and that is all. And sometimes they fail to read properly, i once heard "My axe mastery grants me 90% dmg increase while demon gives 1% crit, doesn't worth going demon" ... and what about 75% damage increase ? 15 isn't that big b:thanks.

I know a lot of Sage BM who went Sage because they didn't think they could have all the Demon skills ... it is a huge mistake. In the long run i think we can drop them.

Kniraven - Lost City

First off, it is enirely possible to reach 5 atk/sec with sage. It just requires genie or cyclone heel.

Hell spark gives you the speed without any additional skills wasting your time and/or without having to blow your genie's energy using Relentless Courage (so you can use it for other things like occult ice/tangling mire)

Heavns Flame's curse lasts longer with Hell, Drakes Bash has a longer stun, Glacial Spike makes all your hits Crits for a short time, Hell Magic Marrow doesn't sacrafice as much of your p.def, and Hell Roar never fails + it has a shorter cooldown.

Those are what you become a Hell BM for.

Sage Spark reduces the damage you take by 25% during it's duration. Combined with Sage Masteries, you dealing 15% more dmg than a Hell BM (on average) per hit, it can really make up for the speed loss. You also have another 15% more p.def aside from the first 15 seconds than a Hell BM does if you both know your Golden Aura Skills.

You can gain another 50 chi every 60 seconds. Drakes Bash has a 25% chance to cast without consuming a spark. Glacial Spike and Myriad Sword Stance have a chance to cast for only 1 spark.

Sage BM's generally have Chi.

Sage Sutra has a chance to heal an additional 50% your HP, which could save your **** if you aren't going to charm tick in time.

Sage Highland Cleave has a 25% chance to raise your crit rate 20% for a full 10 seconds, It has no debuff like dragons bane and obviously a much shorter cooldown.

Sage Farstrike hits incredibly hard

Sage Aelion Blade also hits much harder than Hell Aelion Blade

Those are what you become a Sage BM for.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Combined with Sage Masteries, you dealing 15% more dmg than a Hell BM (on average) per hit, it can really make up for the speed loss.

*Fist/claw BM's generally have Chi.

You're not dealing 15% more damage, your mastery is giving 15% more base weapon damage, which ends up being 2-4% extra calculated/final damage.

Sage fist can't out-dps a demon fist. Looks like glitched foxform veno might be able to..... (waiting for Ray to +10 his claws)

*fixed it for you

Kniraven - Lost City

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

You're not dealing 15% more damage, your mastery is giving 15% more base weapon damage, which ends up being 2-4% extra calculated/final damage.

Sage fist can't out-dps a demon fist. Looks like glitched foxform veno might be able to..... (waiting for Ray to +10 his claws)

*fixed it for you

That number is multiplied by 5 when you triple spark.

Lets average that 2-4% you quoted me to 3 and multiply it by 5.

And yeah, 5atk/sec Barb out DPS's BM as well.

I did not state anywhere that Sage BMs could out DPS Hell BMs, however there are in fact 5 atk/sec Sage BMs and being as 5 atk/sec is the highest speed and their base dmg is higher, you get it.

However, it is much easier to reach high speeds being a Hell/Claw BM

I'm not arguing Sage or Hell to be better. I was trying to show the skills and reasons why people choose each.

EDIT: On another note :< I clicked your profile and saw that you have no friends. So I sent you an add request ;3

Rome - Harshlands

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Sage BM was only a good choice pre-annipacks when you weren't likely to find most of your lvl 11 skills.

Demon Roar never misses and faster cooldown. 9 second dragons. Demon magic marrow wins. Drake Bash 7.5 seconds.

Especially wtih the Jones Blessing... the little damage increase you would get with Sage Masteries is negligible... while the Demon Masteries gives you an extra crit which would take you an extra 20 stat points to get.

Endgame is fist/axes. TW BM = Stuns and Dragons. PvP/PvE BM= Fist. In both, demon wins.

eh, sage magic marrow with sage bell > demon magic marrow and bell in my opinion. plust the extra chi skill is very useful if i need to get a dragon in a bunch of people as a substitute for a chi pot which i most likely used to survive instead of chi.

TheDan - Sanctuary

This is meant to be objective but...a lot of people will refute that Sage is better as a 5.0 because it's more damage, even myself in the past. A lot of people don't consider crit, casting and channel time. Not all BMs use fists, so don't take this as the only viable example.

I've compared my damage output when I was a 5.0 Sage and when I was 5.0 Demon. But don't get me wrong, not all people choose a certain cultivation for damage, there's always room for other causation.

As a 5.0 Demon, there is no need for cyclone heel. If you're calculating % weapon damage, let's put it like this, assuming both know how to glitch cyclone heel and drake breath Bash.

Sage 5.0 = 500% Sage Spark + 90% Mastery + LV 11 DBB 100% = 690% damage, now calculating casting/channel time ~ 53-54 hits per spark ~ 36915% Overall weapon damage in 1 duration of a sage spark.

Assuming Crit % = 23, Actual Damage may be ~45405%

Demon 5.0 = 500% Demon Spark + 75% Mastery + LV11 DBB 135% = 710%, now calculating casting/channel time ~ 57 Hits per spark = 40470% Overall weapon damage in 1 duration of a Demon Spark.

Assuming Crit % = 26, Actual Damage may be ~ 50992%

Because sage is gimped with LA, and also wasting .2 channeling cyclone heel, 2.0 seconds casting time if glitch fails, if it doesn't fail, ~.5 second weapon switching lag, depending on your connection. Demon always has the speed advantage because it does not require cyclone heel, Demons get more hits in, 3-14 more hits depending if cyclone heel fails or not. Demons that can wear full HA with HeavenRage boots will also have the 3-4% more Crit advantage with masteries.

But the main reason I converted to Demon was not because of Damage, I could care less about damage as a support BM in group PvP... To me, Demons have a nice spike buff, and when used correctly would keep me alive. Sage Marrows do have the advantage in more Magic Defense but this is only useful against pure magic users. Demons have the advantage to have balanced defenses in group PvP. Demon Skills have more potent adds to them, and Sage mostly has Chi conservation and maybe more damage on certain skills. Because Sages have the chi advantage, they may stun more often, not necessarily more potent, but more is more, just depends what you want.

And that's my take on Sage VS Demon... using my own realistic examples from my own experience playing both. Not much to say... other than whatever your game play style is, then go with it.

Rome - Harshlands

and the only reason in my opinion sage bm's go demon is if they are going for claws/fists because its so much dps and they can farm hh/nirvana very quickly. yet sage fist bm's can get 5.00 att with recast 99 legs just takes alot more money and time to get 5 atr, so most people choose the easier path and just going demon. this is just me saying but as a sage axe warrior...i dont believe fists take any skill at all. which is why im sticking with axes b:victory

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

That number is multiplied by 5 when you triple spark.

Lets average that 2-4% you quoted me to 3 and multiply it by 5.

And yeah, 5atk/sec Barb out DPS's BM as well.

I did not state anywhere that Sage BMs could out DPS Hell BMs, however there are in fact 5 atk/sec Sage BMs and being as 5 atk/sec is the highest speed and their base dmg is higher, you get it.

However, it is much easier to reach high speeds being a Hell/Claw BM

I'm not arguing Sage or Hell to be better. I was trying to show the skills and reasons why people choose each.

EDIT: On another note :< I clicked your profile and saw that you have no friends. So I sent you an add request ;3

masteries only affect base phys attack

sparks only affect base weapon damage

sage mastery is actually even less of a % boost over demon at 3 spark goes down to about .05%

TheDan - Sanctuary

Rome - Harshlands wrote: »

and the only reason in my opinion sage bm's go demon is if they are going for claws/fists because its so much dps and they can farm hh/nirvana very quickly. yet sage fist bm's can get 5.00 att with recast 99 legs just takes alot more money and time to get 5 atr, so most people choose the easier path and just going demon. this is just me saying but as a sage axe warrior...i dont believe fists take any skill at all. which is why im sticking with axes b:victory

Well for the most case yes, a lot of people will go demon for more interval. But in my case, I was already 5.00 Sage fist BM. My main reason for switching was for the more potent stunning, spike defense buffs, and more balanced defenses from marrows... I hated Sage so much because it wasn't ideal for my role in group PvP.

My role in TW at least... = Stun and Slow, so you can pretty much tell why I went Demon. b:laugh

Kniraven - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

masteries only affect base phys attack

sparks only affect base weapon damage

sage mastery is actually even less of a % boost over demon at 3 spark goes down to about .05%

they affect weapon damage. click r in game and read o.o

Rome - Harshlands

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well for the most case yes, a lot of people will go demon for more interval. But in my case, I was already 5.00 Sage fist BM. My main reason for switching was for the more potent stunning, spike defense buffs, and more balanced defenses from marrows... I hated Sage so much because it wasn't ideal for my role in group PvP.

My role in TW at least... = Stun and Slow, so you can pretty much tell why I went Demon. b:laugh

im sage and i think i do just fine in tw doing my role...sage marrow is so much more efficient since R8 mages +30 att blessings hurt like a bich. that marrow really does save my **** when they BID me b:sad andddd as being an axe bm is a support class for the most part...sage bell really helps out your team with that extra pdef opposed to the demon bell.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

they affect weapon damage. click r in game and read o.o

ment to say base weapon dmaage

and the point remains despite my chatfailing lol spark and mastery stack but its additive they dont multiply off each other

TheDan - Sanctuary

Rome - Harshlands wrote: »

im sage and i think i do just fine in tw doing my role...sage marrow is so much more efficient since R8 mages +30 att blessings hurt like a bich. that marrow really does save my **** when they BID me b:sad andddd as being an axe bm is a support class for the most part...sage bell really helps out your team with that extra pdef opposed to the demon bell.

I know that.. I was a sage myself for 2 years, I'm just saying I was looking for more balance because Sage 5.0 requires me to wear LA which drops me Phys def to less than 6K. I use axes to crowd control, stuns and fissure for slowing, fists when I'm in close combat inside enemy base.

Sage and Demon both have their respective advantages, it's just your play style. At least on my server I get ganked hard core by archers/wizard/veno combo so I tend to prefer more spike phys def when I get purged. I die more often from Physical attacks than I do magical these days unfortunately.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary

First of all, endgame bm is Sword/Spear/Fist/Axe...anything not all weapon is just...ick

OH and also theres a summary at the bottom of all this junk I wrote for those of you that dont wanna read all this trash.

...
...

Really if your going to compare dps with sage vs demon...demon does more damage only because of the fact you have to use cyclone heel if your sage to maintain 5 attacks per second. Demon is also easier to get 5 aps with. At this point i find that sages +25% damage reduction is far more useful than demons +25% attack speed. Considering demon is only going to give you like 5% more damage at the most cus of this 2 second cast for cyclone eating up like 8 attacks worth of damage..

So for example lets take out a 30 second slice of dpsing time, during that 30 seconds assuming the sage bm cyclones before every spark, and we start the timer at the initial beginning of the first spark erupt after invuln wears off. We get 5 * 15 attacks for the first spark eruption = 75 attacks. Then sage takes 2 seconds to cyclone, while demon sparks again, sage sparks 2 seconds into demons invuln, losing 2 seconds from the remaining time of the spark. We could cyclone heel damage as 2 fist normal attacks. Thus demon gets another 75 attacks. Sage gets 67 attacks. Thus for this 30 second slice of time sage deals 142 attacks worth of damage, and demon 150 attacks. Thus demon attacks with ~5% more damage than sage, masteries aside. That compared to a 25% increase in damage resistance from sage spark. Thus if your the one taking the hits sage spark > demon spark...and if your just dpsing, demon > sage.

(note: I am aware of cancel casting for just the speed buff from cyclone...i consider this an exploit and dont use it....considering there is no way it was intended to work like that)

Anyway, as for a few other things.

---

Sage vs demon stuns:

Demon stuns are more effective than sage stuns. HOWEVER...sage stuns are more efficient than demon stuns. For example, sage roar takes 25 chi to cast vs 35 chi, and drake bash has a 25% chance to cost no chi...basically 25% less chi cost over time to use said skill.

Now in my opinion the sage abilities are more useful for TW, considering im sitting there spamming roar just about every time it cools down, and to supply that kind of chi, unless I wanna sit ther drinking down chi pots all day, isent exactly an easy proposition, in addition to the **** load of other chi consuming skills that need to be used. Also the ability to actually make more use of drake bash is helpful, your not always gonna have full chi to work with, and in said situations, saving chi is very useful.

Now you might argue with 5 aps that chi is a non factor, but stuff like tw isent just running around triple sparking the whole time, expecting things to stand there and let you punch them to death for chi...no, thats just not how things work, in a real environment saving chi is actually quite important.

Demon is more effective as I said, this is undeniable, but saying sage pales in comparison is stupid, considering the adds on the skills are still very useful. So i call them actually a tie, depending on what you personally prefer.

---

Now to compare a few other things....

AOEs:

Basically if you look at the axe tree, highland cleave sage is better than demon, since while spamming aoes, you should be spamming cyclone heel, you will always be under that speed buff, making demons highland speed buff pointless. The huge crit boost sage can get is very very nice. Fissure could be argued either way, considering depending upon who your with, the fire debuff could be very devastating, but the +10% slow may be useful in other situations. Heavens flame is demon of course...i mean whoever made sage must of been smokeing some seriously messed up ****...Anyway aside from the ultimate I am inclined that axe aoes favor sage.

Sage spark also favors aoe, since attack speed boosts in aoe are pointless, and the damge reduction vs multiple mobs is extremely helpful.

Demon shadowless does have aoe effect, thus becomes and aoe, making it useful to add to an aoe chain, sage has its own awesome abilities tho. Demon meteor rush also has a chance to stun the enemy...which another aoe stun is always helpful of course. I like sage meteor rush for the aux cancel/possible aoe cancel...though id argue demons ability is better, since a chance for 5 second stunnage in aoe is pretty BA.

Now as for drake sweep and fan of flames, the fan of flames skills basically have equally good mods. The drake sweeps is demon, considering every hit target has a chance to proc the chi gain chance...which in something like delta can be quite insane.

As for the other aoe ultimates, glacial is more in favor of demon (5 seconds 100% crit...its crazy, thers no denying); not to say the chi saving is not useful for sage. And myriad is really a toss up, considering I usually use this as a nuke/in pve, i prefer the spark saving personally.

Moral of aoes is that demon and sage both have strong points, and therefore i would call it once again fairly even, demons ultimates are better if you favor skill abilities, however sage once again save you chi, which can also be of importance.

Other Skills:

Shadowless kick sage can cancel like 80% of the aoe of most in game enemies permanently by just holding down your cancel hotkey....which is amazing, I use this all the time....demon becomes and aoe attack however, which is also quite useful, id rate both of these about equally.

Diamond Sutra: Sage has more effective healing, demon has a better pk type of crit booster buff, really this one is personal preference, so either is good imo.

Cyclone heel: Sage works well since you need 20 seconds to actually work in spark eruptions with it effectivly...demon is somewhat redundant because of their spark eruption if you are dpsing a target, however given you have no chi demon is a more effective version. Once again an effect vs efficiency deal.

Spirit Chaser: The faster speed for this attack makes it alot more useful with sage, rather than demons ability. Considering your only going to use this to fill in gaps in your long range pokeing arsonal, you wont use it often for the sake of gaining chi, hence the sped up channel cast is very nice with it. So sage is good here.

Aeolin Blade/Farstrike: With sage these skills hit insanely hard....demons effects on them pale in comparison, hence sage wins for both of these skills.

Tiger maul: Sage

Draw Blood: Either, personal preference.

Aura of the Golden Bell: Demon can be situationally more effective, and sage is more effective overall. Thus I consider either to be good. From a squad standpoint people prefer sage....but like i said, given the situation demon can be better.

Marrows: Sage = more effective fighting an enemy of purely one attack type, demon = better at fighting in group situations, where enemies may attack with different types of attacks. Either is good for their respective reasons.

Masteries: Both give good effects. Sage is more effective the less modifications you have to your damage AKA...not spark erupted...demon becomes better the more modified your attack stats are, such as while you are sparked, since +15% weapon damage counts for less with +500% weapon damage added on.

Oceans Edge: Demon adds damage...sage adds a freeze chance, I personally like the freeze chance, though I usually dont use this skill over something like aeolin. I prefer sage tho.

Drakes Ray: Depending on situation reduced either can be better than the other. If it runs outside of 10 meters farstrike is far more effective than this anyway. So i generally lean towards sage.

_________________________________________________________________________

In Summary:

Sage: More efficient skills which consume less chi, as well as some harder hitting skills, more effective for taking hits than demon. Skills which are better over long periods of time. Better tanking. More damage while not under huge attack modifications/unbuffed by other class buffs. Many Skills are more PVE oriented.

Demon: More effective skills, and easier to acquire attack speed. Slightly higher dps given endgame type conditions. Some more interesting effects on some skills. Many skills are more PVP oriented.

In other words both are effective for their various purposes...and shine in different areas, as well as suck in others. So whatever YOU like more is the best choice.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

That number is multiplied by 5 when you triple spark.

Lets average that 2-4% you quoted me to 3 and multiply it by 5.

And yeah, 5atk/sec Barb out DPS's BM as well.

I did not state anywhere that Sage BMs could out DPS Hell BMs, however there are in fact 5 atk/sec Sage BMs and being as 5 atk/sec is the highest speed and their base dmg is higher, you get it.

Base damage is meaningless. Sage mastery's 15% means little to nothing... from the mat that is done, it's only an extra 2-4% per hit extra, unsparked. Demon 1% crit would cost a sage an extra 20 dex.

Sobbie has better gear than me, can't even touch me in Neinbeast. Not even close, and I'm pure vit build as well. They have +10 TT100, I have +10 cv, if they were demon they would out-dps me considerably. DPS for sage fist is gimped. It doesn't even compare.

5aps Barb barely out-dps a equally geared BM. The difference is really negligible. A veno with lvl 11 melee mastery and triple spark will out DPS either. Just look at Ray with what, +6... or is it +7 cv claws?

As for which is better, for PvE, obviously demon is better. For PvP it's more playstyle than anything, but 5aps demons have one advantage, they don't need to switch around LA pieces. Sage bell would be largely cancelled out switching boots or wrist to LA, or losing mdef switching out ornaments for LA bonus. Either way, it's a compromise that a demon does not need to take.

Rome - Harshlands wrote: »

eh, sage magic marrow with sage bell > demon magic marrow and bell in my opinion. plust the extra chi skill is very useful if i need to get a dragon in a bunch of people as a substitute for a chi pot which i most likely used to survive instead of chi.

Sorry, I'd rather have demon mmarrow, it's far better balanced and my pdef with it is still 10.8k fully buffed. I use mdef charms to suppliment my 10.2k mdef. As for chi, a lot of the time I can put on my fists and beat on a barb or other random... on the way back to the front line.... chi is easily obtainable. And I can also use chi pots.

As for needing to dragon someone, demon dragon > sage dragon as well.

Rome - Harshlands

O.O my pdef is more than 10.8k fully buffed with magic marrow...but i use pdef ornaments...and i have 9.8k mdef with magic marrow w/o def charms..with only +4 pdef ornaments xD. and chi pots? i mean chi pots are good to use but not all the time....dont you hate when your in a cluster **** in tw mid B lane and you just get purged getting ganked by 8 different people and you wanna use a dew of star and its on cooldown? lol i do admit though demon dragons are better, demon has the edge on that. yet usually if its a cata barb and you have dd's attacking it all you need is 6 seconds if they dont turtle. also again, the sage bell is more of a community buff than a self buffing, keeping your squad alive with the extra pdef opposed to 30 second demon bell.b:chuckle

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Rome - Harshlands wrote: »

O.O my pdef is more than 10.8k fully buffed with magic marrow...but i use pdef ornaments...and i have 9.8k mdef with magic marrow w/o def charms..with only +4 pdef ornaments xD. and chi pots? i mean chi pots are good to use but not all the time....dont you hate when your in a cluster **** in tw mid B lane and you just get purged getting ganked by 8 different people and you wanna use a dew of star and its on cooldown? lol i do admit though demon dragons are better, demon has the edge on that. yet usually if its a cata barb and you have dd's attacking it all you need is 6 seconds if they dont turtle. also again, the sage bell is more of a community buff than a self buffing, keeping your squad alive with the extra pdef opposed to 30 second demon bell.b:chuckle

My mdef is 10.2k not considering the 50% reduction of mdef charms... if you were on LC you would need to spam them as well... Ehee gush crit a BM (not pmarrowed) for 16k. Sure, that's an extreme example, but with the +30 attack blessings, 10k+ hp means little in TW against archers and mages with +10-+12 Nirvana, Rank 8 and CV weapons. We have 20k+ HP barbs base buffing and archers with +10 cv bows sitting in reserves... The difference between sage and demon buff is negligible. It won't change the outcome of either side.

One place where I do see sage being better would be a straight vit-axe PvP build with very highly refined Nirvana axes... since the skills do hit harder, someone who knows how to play would be pretty brutal.