bring back 2x

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

It doesn't matter because the point was that someone had to charge the gold in the first place. No gold can come into circulation in PWI without charging zen. You don't bring gold into circulation by farming, no matter how hard.

I never said so. I just meant that I got gold by farming.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

How is merchanting effected by double drops? I'm talking about people that farm TT, or can you not read?


And grinding? You can't be serious. Try to grind and make enough coins for high level stuff. Go grind until you can afford a lunar wep, get back to me when you do. Actually on second though, grind until you can afford a lunar wep, AND shards for it AND to refine it to a decent level.

You don't earn money from TT unless people are willing to buy it at the price you put them at. Is that so abstractly mysterious? You basically want to be one of the few who farms TT... that's the only way you can keep them at "high price". So, your advice for "high levels" to farm TT isn't applicable. If more and more start to farm their TTs thinking they would get money, the prices drop.

In fact, that's exactly what 2x does. Think about it. You get 2 times as many mats per run, so half price shouldn't be bad at all right? But, during 2x, more and more people (and high levels) start to farm thinking it's worth it.

So basically you want FEW people to run TTs... 2x is merely what pushes them to farm, and you apparently are against that, seeing as you are against low prices. More people farm and want to sell their stuff -- guess what happens when they see yours priced at whatever? They try to sell lower. Next person in line, even lower, so people buy from HIM instead of YOU or the other ones.

Prices get down, and only because more people farm (supply). They go down by more than half, mind you. If they were going down by HALF, it shouldn't be a problem... after all you ALSO get twice as many mats during 2x...

But of course there's also demand: less demand since the "crafting item" requirement is the same, but 2x as many mats. Good thing for people who craft their gear, bad for those who want to sell TT mats instead of using them.

I mean, wasn't TT designed for people to run it for their gear? People only buy it because they don't find running it worthy, and it is what you are actually suggesting. i.e have people NOT run TTs and buy from you instead. Cause, you know, you have to be exclusively running it for coins.

As for affording refines, let's just say, why would a cashshopper need your "services"? After all, he pays you with coins for whatever (TT mats in this case), you gotta do something more than what others are doing if you want a TON of cash (i.e more people farming TT = not so exclusive for you).

Who's greedy here?

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I never said so. I just meant that I got gold by farming.

As long as someone sells that gold to you... that's why it doesn't work the way you phrase it.

RedsRose - Lost City

^ Please uninstall b:surrender

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Who do you think buys your overpriced TT mats?

That's right, people who don't farm TT.

What about those people? Are you saying that, by you selling TT mats and "affording refines", they should suck it out? Cause obviously, if they don't farm TT, and actually LOSE COINS by buying TT mats... they can't afford refines (without cashshopping ofc).

Again, who's greedy here?

RedsRose - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Who do you think buys your overpriced TT mats?

That's right, people who don't farm TT.

What about those people? Are you saying that, by you selling TT mats and "affording refines", they should suck it out? Cause obviously, if they don't farm TT, and actually LOSE COINS by buying TT mats... they can't afford refines (without cashshopping ofc).

Again, who's greedy here?

I am not being greedy....people are buying them!

Same can be applied to RL if you want to get all technical speaking. Look at gas prices/food prices/etc/etc/etc...I will wait a moment....







If they don't like it they can farm it, but as long as they are buying it, I and others, will farm it b:victory

Myriad_ - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Who do you think buys your overpriced TT mats?

That's right, people who don't farm TT.

What about those people? Are you saying that, by you selling TT mats and "affording refines", they should suck it out? Cause obviously, if they don't farm TT, and actually LOSE COINS by buying TT mats... they can't afford refines (without cashshopping ofc).

Again, who's greedy here?

Lol greedy is a big word. The humans, in our societies at least, like to, even live to make profit, earning money. What do you think capitalism is? ppl wants to have money so of course they are "greedy".

Asperitas - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Who do you think buys your overpriced TT mats?

That's right, people who don't farm TT.

What about those people? Are you saying that, by you selling TT mats and "affording refines", they should suck it out? Cause obviously, if they don't farm TT, and actually LOSE COINS by buying TT mats... they can't afford refines (without cashshopping ofc).

Again, who's greedy here?

They aren't losing anything. For what they lose in coins, they make up for by not having to spend the time to run for those mats. And time is money. Economically speaking, nobody would buy something if they were losing money, not unless the good/service was an absolute neccessity and was monopolized. Which is why, inelastic markets are regulated.

What is greedy though, is you wanting more for less. Same time used to run TT but more mats dropped for your convenience. I'm not saying this is wrong of you. Everybody is inherently greedy by nature. But don't try to make it out as if people who try to sell TT mats are evil while you are the righteous defender of justice.

And before you ask, "isn't making it easier to farm gear better?", not it is not. Not neccessarily.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

I am not being greedy....people are buying them!

Same can be applied to RL if you want to get all technical speaking. Look at gas prices/food prices/etc/etc/etc...I will wait a moment....







If they don't like it they can farm it, but as long as they are buying it, I and others, will farm it b:victory

That's perfectly fine, I never said you are scamming them or anything. If they agree with the trade, it is fair, as long as they are not scammed. Which they are not. That was not my point though.

My point was this. You don't like prices going down, yet you don't even know what's causing that: more people farming TTs. By saying that you want prices up, you are implying you do NOT want others to farm their own TTs, even though you are doing it.

2x drops makes them farm because they think it's worth it for once. Lots of people start to do it, that's why prices drop below half, not just because it's double the amount of mats (that would be no prob since you get double too!).

So basically, you are being greedy NOT by coins, but by wanting as much exclusivity as possible -- i.e as few TT farmers as possible.


Michael_dark: explain how it is "more for less" when this is an arbitrary rate set by the game mechanics. If this game had the 2x as "default" would you say it's "more for less"? Is it only because you had lower drop rate back in the day?

There is nothing "magical" or "more for less" about a game mechanic.

EDIT: Actually, what I meant by "not being greedy" is that, as long as more people have TT gear I wouldn't mind. On the other hand you depend on people who want to buy your mats for "your profit" for your gear or refines or whatever. In contrast I don't mind if everyone had elite gear.

RedsRose - Lost City

O.o

I have never said for them not to farm there own ****.

Hell, they can go for it, however the fact remains that people now are lazy = I and others will do the work = they get their mats and I get profit b:pleased

^ Really...that is it ^


PS -->

Is it only because you had lower drop rate back in the day?

In terms of drop rate there are 2. There is a standard and there is a server drop rate. Obviously the servers run off of the server drop rate, which slightly higher then the rate set by the initial coding. 2x just dble's the % rate...it does not literally "double" the drops but the % to which is CAN drop. (I think that is the best way I can describe it....without showing math -.- b:surrender) The drop rate has not changed, they just flip a switch for the 2x....

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Again, I have no problem with you selling TT mats. My initial point was people like Rawrgh who complained that mats were becoming cheaper and cheaper.

That is equivalent to saying, more and more people farm.

People who think they should have exclusive power in something, are the greedy ones I'm talking about.

Not selling TT mats. But complaining about low TT mat prices. That is all.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

What? that makes no sense at all.


"My complaint is with people who are against the market being flooded with items due to x2 drops"


No one has an exclusive power in anything, anyone at a reasonable level can go farm TT, hell I started farming 2-3 regularly once I hit 80, started doing AE regularly once I hit 84.

In fact, that's exactly what 2x does. Think about it. You get 2 times as many mats per run, so half price shouldn't be bad at all right? But, during 2x, more and more people (and high levels) start to farm thinking it's worth it.

Prices get down, and only because more people farm (supply). They go down by more than half, mind you. If they were going down by HALF, it shouldn't be a problem... after all you ALSO get twice as many mats during 2x...

But of course there's also demand: less demand since the "crafting item" requirement is the same, but 2x as many mats. Good thing for people who craft their gear, bad for those who want to sell TT mats instead of using them.

They dont' go down because MORE people are farming, the same amount of people are farming as before, the problem is that the prices go down because of the increased supply of TT mats and when the event ends..... THEY DONT GO UP.

I dont expect to get millions of coins for each TT2-3 mat I sell, but when I spend more money on repairs/event pots/etc. on each run than I get because the mats now go for 200k each that's a PROBLEM because that takes what used to be a perfectly viable way for people to be able to make money and it ruins it.



But hey we'll see, I'm willing to bet that once you get 90 you wont have any refines higher than +3 on your gear, and that's if you're lucky. You'll probably be one of those mages I kick from my squad because they have terribad gear.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

You still don't get it? Anyone CAN farm TT, and a LOT MORE are farming during 2x. THAT is why prices go so low.

The market is not "flooded", at best just TWICE the mats. Half prices is not bad seeing as you get 2x mats right? So why complain?

The reason it goes LOWER than half is because MORE PEOPLE FARM TT.

Anyone can farm, but YOU DON'T WANT MORE to farm.

More people find it worth to farm TT during 2x. hence why prices go so low. Not just because of flood.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

No....... not really, a few maybe but the REAL ISSUE is that the SAME AMOUNT OF PEOPLE are farming TT buuuuuuuuttttt......... they have a flood of mats, which lowers prices.



Really not many more people start farming TT just because of double drops, the ones that do are usually just getting gear, which they would have done anyways, and then stopping, which doesn't effect the TT mat market. The problem is that the market gets flooded because while I now have twice as many mats to sell there is still the same amount of buyers.


I welcome anyone to farm, just for us to not have anymore x2 events.


You should stop putting words in my mouth and learn to read.

RedsRose - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

The market is not "flooded", at best just TWICE the mats.

b:beatupb:sweat

Borsuc - Raging Tide

That would make prices to half. But you get double mats so no problem. That's not the problem tho is it?


Hint: think of 2x as people farming TT twice as much. Obviously, you are against this apparently.

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

b:beatupb:sweat

Can you use logic?

2x drops = 2x mats

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

That would make prices to half. But you get double mats so no problem. That's not the problem tho is it?


Hint: think of 2x as people farming TT twice as much. Obviously, you are against this apparently.

Can you use logic?

2x drops = 2x mats

Which would be defined as flooded.


As I've stated before, the problem isn't that the prices are cut in half DURING the event, it's that the prices are still low ONCE THE EVENT IS OVER.

RedsRose - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Can you use logic?

2x drops = 2x mats

Ok...ready?

I will copy what I said a few posts above....

In terms of drop rate there are 2. There is a standard and there is a server drop rate. Obviously the servers run off of the server drop rate, which slightly higher then the rate set by the initial coding. 2x just dble's the % rate...it does not literally "double" the drops but the % to which is CAN drop. (I think that is the best way I can describe it....without showing math -.- ) The drop rate has not changed, they just flip a switch for the 2x....

2x does NOT mean 2x mats. 2x means the % rate has dble'd b:sweat

Logic my dear Watson....

Asperitas - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

That would make prices to half. But you get double mats so no problem. That's not the problem tho is it?


Hint: think of 2x as people farming TT twice as much. Obviously, you are against this apparently.

Can you use logic?

2x drops = 2x mats

I thought you were also saying people enter the market farming industry, thus making it more than 2x as much supply.

?_?

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Actually, each mob has a "how many times does the server count drop rate" variable. For most normal mobs this is 1. For bosses it's higher. This variable is what is doubled, not the chances.

For each "count" there is also, of course, a chance for no drops at all. (I hope you know killing mobs sometimes has no drops at all!)

It simply means it counts drops twice... exactly 2x drops.


Also Rawrgh yes it is flooded, but so would be if people farmed TT twice as much in that period!

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

I thought you were also saying people enter the market farming industry, thus making it more than 2x as much supply.

?_?

Indeed. But Rawrgh said "he has no problem" with more people farming TT. I wanted to prove to him that, indeed, that's exactly "the problem" he is complaining about, albeit masked by lower prices. It's the cause of it.

RedsRose - Lost City

^

If your logic was correct (which it is not)...The exp on hypers and the like would be literally dbl'd. But since you cannot multiply the multipliers...b:surrender

Borsuc - Raging Tide

It's not doubled WITH hypers. It's like stacking buffs: they only work on the initial (base) value. "Double exp" means, exp+exp.

So it's:

exp*12 + exp = exp*13

not exp*24

XD


EDIT: What I said before about drops comes from pwdatabase.com, it lists there how the "how many times does server count drop rate" works if you click on the '?' next to it.

RedsRose - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's not doubled WITH hypers. It's like stacking buffs: they only work on the initial (base) value. "Double exp" means, exp+exp.

So it's:

exp*12 + exp = exp*13

not exp*24

XD

Did you not see the IF!!!!!

ffs..........

READ THE POSTS BEFORE RESPONDING b:surrender

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Yeah sorry I was confused as to what you meant.

RedsRose - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yeah sorry I was confused as to what you meant.

b:sweatb:sweat

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Can you be a bit specific bceause I honestly did not get what you meant. Exp gets boosted to x13 with hypers during double drops, which conforms to what I said. (I mean, boosted compared to original non-2x-event non-hypered mob)

I've no idea how it works in other modes (besides x12), never tried it.

RedsRose - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Can you be a bit specific bceause I honestly did not get what you meant. Exp gets boosted to x13 with hypers during double drops, which conforms to what I said. (I mean, boosted compared to original non-2x-event non-hypered mob)

I've no idea how it works in other modes (besides x12), never tried it.

I was comparing your 2x drop comment to hypers.

Saying that IF your theory on 2x drops was correct then it would work the same way with 2x exp on hypers.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

I guess devs realized it would be too much and decided to stack it like buffs.

There is no "hyper drops" so we can't say for sure, if it would stack the same way...

RedsRose - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

I guess devs realized it would be too much and decided to stack it like buffs.

There is no "hyper drops" so we can't say for sure, if it would stack the same way...

b:surrender Nevermind....

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Give it up rose, there's no getting through to him.


Again, there is no problem with more people farming TT, because that really isn't happening. The problem is the double drops floods the market and........


eff it, I give up, there's no getting through to you. You don't even read half the posts you reespond to do you?

I suppose it's true, never argue with an idiot.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Ok that's the problem, or so you say. Flood the market during 2x.

Explain, though, how is twice as many drops (aka, imagine that when you kill a boss, a "clone" appears with 1 hp and dies instantly for drops) different than running TT twice.