Sage advantages over Demon?

Adroit - Lost City

HxCx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just the dragon thing, but not worth being Sage just for this.
The -cast of the demon wins

*warning* HxCx is a n00b

HxCx - Heavens Tear

Why? Evil has more pdef too.
Other than dragon, what other bennefit from sage?

Adroit - Lost City

HxCx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why? Evil has more pdef too.
Other than dragon, what other bennefit from sage?

well tons of chi would be an obvious advantage

Haiz - Lost City

Saying you only go sage for BID is just like saying you only go demon for stone barrier. Although I'd easily take sage BID over demon stone barrier mostly because I have more than enough pdef with sage stone barrier.

I can personally say that I have too much chi as a sage wizard. In TW I often don't have any group of people to use my ultis on and I always have my sutra on cool down to kill a big target. Still end up with full chi all the time.

Myriad_ - Lost City

Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »

Sage is good, but demon is definitely not gimped at all.
And if you look at some TW sage's videos, you will see that they are using all the time the 3 basic spells, and don't use ulti every 5 secs, like you could believe. Just check Haiz videos.

Haiz - Lost City wrote: »

Saying you only go sage for BID is just like saying you only go demon for stone barrier. Although I'd easily take sage BID over demon stone barrier mostly because I have more than enough pdef with sage stone barrier.

I can personally say that I have too much chi as a sage wizard. In TW I often don't have any group of people to use my ultis on and I always have my sutra on cool down to kill a big target. Still end up with full chi all the time.

Lol. Proof that sage chi thing is overated in TW. You simply can't use your ultis every time you have 2 sparks, because of the lack of opportunities. So this "sage have more chi" thing is kinda wasted, demons wiz build the "lack of chi" in the time you are running with full chi. Just look at some demon wiz TW, they are running with full chi too, because 95% the time, you are killing the guys one by one.

So really going sage is for dragon, and the mana provided by sparking to dd during boss fight lol.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »

Lol. Proof that sage chi thing is overated in TW. You simply can't use your ultis every time you have 2 sparks, because of the lack of opportunities. So this "sage have more chi" thing is kinda wasted, demons wiz build the "lack of chi" in the time you are running with full chi. Just look at some demon wiz TW, they are running with full chi too, because 95% the time, you are killing the guys one by one.

So really going sage is for dragon, and the mana provided by sparking to dd during boss fight lol.

If I have chi in TW I immediately launch ultimates regardless how many people I'm attacking 1 or more. Doesn't matter. Better than die with 2 sparks. So is personal choice is you will wait for group people or attack just one. I never have enough chi in TW. Constant two spark would be great.b:chuckle

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

if i have full chi in TW i will just use MS or BT to get rid of it, even if there is only 1 or 2 people there.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Well a lot of chi would be useful if Sage had the -20% channeling on Demon's Wellspring Quaff, since that spell has very short cooldown and instant... perfect opportunity for putting that spark to use, if you really had nothing else to use it on (i.e Sutra on cooldown, no ultis needed, etc).

Haiz - Lost City

Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »

Lol. Proof that sage chi thing is overated in TW. You simply can't use your ultis every time you have 2 sparks, because of the lack of opportunities. So this "sage have more chi" thing is kinda wasted, demons wiz build the "lack of chi" in the time you are running with full chi. Just look at some demon wiz TW, they are running with full chi too, because 95% the time, you are killing the guys one by one.

So really going sage is for dragon, and the mana provided by sparking to dd during boss fight lol.

Actually whenever I get full chi I look for the hard to kill people and triple spark or use sutra. Me staying at full chi is because I use pyrogram a lot, not because I never need to use any chi. From my videos I just got my rank 8 so I wasn't sure about my damage so I didn't want to waste sutras and triple spark, that is no longer a problem anymore because I know my limits in damage.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

*Gets out defibrilator*
Clear!!!
Sucess! I have brought to life a necro thread!!

Anyways b:pleased

thought i would bring this back cuz its got some good information.

Adressing the "does demon +crit% masteries stack"- I think they do. It doesnt say that it only works for the one element, so I think it works for all. And I think GM's would agree that +1% really wouldnt be balanced trade off.

And as for, "Sage's chi abilities are overated because they can go awhile without even finding a target for their ultimates"- I think the idea is that you will be MORE LIKLEY to have chi when you need it. If you jus respawned, you could have 2 sparks and not of used a single apoth pot yet, and you'll be ready to BIDS the next crowd you see. If your a demon that just respawned, you might still be building chi.

Adroit - Lost City

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

*Gets out defibrilator*
Clear!!!
Sucess! I have brought to life a necro thread!!

Anyways b:pleased

thought i would bring this back cuz its got some good information.

Adressing the "does demon +crit% masteries stack"- I think they do. It doesnt say that it only works for the one element, so I think it works for all. And I think GM's would agree that +1% really wouldnt be balanced trade off.

And as for, "Sage's chi abilities are overated because they can go awhile without even finding a target for their ultimates"- I think the idea is that you will be MORE LIKLEY to have chi when you need it. If you jus respawned, you could have 2 sparks and not of used a single apoth pot yet, and you'll be ready to BIDS the next crowd you see. If your a demon that just respawned, you might still be building chi.

Necro'ing threads is stupid.
Skill descriptions are wrong and will always be wrong.. you can't just decide how a skill works by your interpretation of the skill description. Dev's decide on game balance, not the GM's.. and there are skills that are OBVIOUSLY one sided, some skills are just better for sage or for demon.
Stop speculating what end game is like when you aren't there yet.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

GM and Dev is pretty much same thing to me b:laugh
I know they're not, but oh well b:pleased

And I'm allowed to speculate and read up on sage/demon stuff if I want to b:sad

defintly helps distract me from grinding so much, and makes bhs go by faster
And your right, some demon skills are just plain better than some sage skills, period. But I was jus giving my own 2 cents on how it works.

Burnout - Harshlands

Sage imo is better overall for the average player, but for the heavy cash - shopper I think it pays to go demon...when you have cube neck, warsong belt, lunar nirvana, lunar p. def cape, plus demon stone barrier, you get SICK barb like p. def levels, and that's just with sharding full citrines (garnets would be overkill).

Get enough money for - channel gears, you can reach 51-60% -channel w/ demon wellspring pretty easily, you think channeling Divine pyro faster than some sages can cast regular pyro would be a little OP'ed? All that with 18-20% crit (keep in mind I'm talking upper 5-10% of cash shopping wizzies).

Also with jones blessings and a +12 rank 8, you will find that often all you need to do is spam undine - poison - gush to kill the majority of unbuffed players. And actually with jones blessings it often doesn't even pay to waste time with undine when you're m. attack is that high...

You start to get to a point where an average gush or poke spell takes more than half of someone's hp, after the 50% mark it's pretty useless to gush them for much more and it's better to crit and 1-shot them, bypassing charm entirely. Demon crit masteries help with that. And yes I know if you can gush > 50% why not just Dragon or use glacial or pitfall and Stone rain? Well you're not going to be able to Dragon ALL the time. Not even sages can do that unless it's in some regular pve situation, although Uber-geared demons might start off with pitfall. still...

But yeah in the end Sage still has the edge in TW w/ the crit on BIDS...there's a big difference between unbuffed and fully buffed @ endgame and even a R8 +12 is gonna need crit help to *really* clear the field of every last ****.


But for the average geared player, who typically kills with either a sutra spike or a well-timed ult and actually has to consider charm cooldowns, I think the chi advantage of sage is definitely more useful. Even a mage with +5 TT90 can kill with a BIDS crit.

Edit: And also I just don't see how the sage bonus for stone rain is really any good...most of the times I've tried casting it in pvp I end up wishing I just spent the time casting a gush/pyro/pitall instead....it takes 50% longer and does like 20% more damage? And it's useless during sutra too with it's long cast time...

fulgida

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Edit: And also I just don't see how the sage bonus for stone rain is really any good...most of the times I've tried casting it in pvp I end up wishing I just spent the time casting a gush/pyro/pitall instead....it takes 50% longer and does like 20% more damage? And it's useless during sutra too with it's long cast time...

I think that stone rain can be a decent "final spell".

If your gush or pyro would almost kill something, your stone rain could kill them faster than the combination of gush+pyro.

Unfortunately, you will need some experience to properly judge when to be using stone rain.

The life of a wizard is so hard!

b:cry

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Sage imo is better overall for the average player, but for the heavy cash - shopper I think it pays to go demon...when you have cube neck, warsong belt, lunar nirvana, lunar p. def cape, plus demon stone barrier, you get SICK barb like p. def levels, and that's just with sharding full citrines (garnets would be overkill).

Get enough money for - channel gears, you can reach 51-60% -channel w/ demon wellspring pretty easily, you think channeling Divine pyro faster than some sages can cast regular pyro would be a little OP'ed? All that with 18-20% crit (keep in mind I'm talking upper 5-10% of cash shopping wizzies).

Also with jones blessings and a +12 rank 8, you will find that often all you need to do is spam undine - poison - gush to kill the majority of unbuffed players. And actually with jones blessings it often doesn't even pay to waste time with undine when you're m. attack is that high...

You start to get to a point where an average gush or poke spell takes more than half of someone's hp, after the 50% mark it's pretty useless to gush them for much more and it's better to crit and 1-shot them, bypassing charm entirely. Demon crit masteries help with that. And yes I know if you can gush > 50% why not just Dragon or use glacial or pitfall and Stone rain? Well you're not going to be able to Dragon ALL the time. Not even sages can do that unless it's in some regular pve situation, although Uber-geared demons might start off with pitfall. still...

But yeah in the end Sage still has the edge in TW w/ the crit on BIDS...there's a big difference between unbuffed and fully buffed @ endgame and even a R8 +12 is gonna need crit help to *really* clear the field of every last ****.


But for the average geared player, who typically kills with either a sutra spike or a well-timed ult and actually has to consider charm cooldowns, I think the chi advantage of sage is definitely more useful. Even a mage with +5 TT90 can kill with a BIDS crit.

Edit: And also I just don't see how the sage bonus for stone rain is really any good...most of the times I've tried casting it in pvp I end up wishing I just spent the time casting a gush/pyro/pitall instead....it takes 50% longer and does like 20% more damage? And it's useless during sutra too with it's long cast time...

idk but with my +10 inferno not 1hit a full buffed +7-8 refined gear user archer/barb (and mostly not con clerics/venos, i dont want talk about tideborn class) in tw..

AncientK - Raging Tide

sage is mostly for PVE. conserving chi. like casting without spark. demon is 100% PVP.
fast cool downs and give short but effective/strong bonuses to skills.

Adroit - Lost City

AncientK - Raging Tide wrote: »

sage is mostly for PVE. conserving chi. like casting without spark. demon is 100% PVP.
fast cool downs and give short but effective/strong bonuses to skills.

No. The demon/sage choice has NOTHING to do with pve vs pvp.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

No. The demon/sage choice has NOTHING to do with pve vs pvp.

^This

Although jokingly, if we look at mages with all skills learned in delta... demon > sage because of sage DB's massive aggro b:chuckle so hypothetically, I just contradicted the "fact" that demon is worse at PvE omg.

Oh also demon distance shrink > sage in jungle ruins (PvE). b:chuckle


Now I look back at my post... and I gotta say, I'm really loving the 35m on Mountain Seize in certain situations and in TW... also the Zooming Thunder Powder + 35m stun nuke is incredible sometimes b:dirty Not used as often as sage BIDS though.

I don't have hailstorm yet, but demon emberstorm is nice especially in delta. Not much use in PvP aside from the few scenarios where DB would be of use (then emberstorm might work a bit)... though if you are the risk-type of player, it's a good 3sec almost instant stun for a single target; but 50% chance makes me cry.

Demon Stone Rain = risk spell. Useful as a nuke, incredible when it procs in PvP especially 1v1, but otherwise you better have backup plans.

Demon Sandstorm = heavy nuke with extra crit (compared to sage, if we take masteries into account).

Demon Glacial Snare is awesome, feels almost as fast as stone rain now in channeling.

Demon frostblade > sage... but most importantly is the 20 chi it gives compared to lvl10, what really made me learn it.

Demon wellspring quaff > sage, good instant extra channel when you don't want to waste 2 sparks on a sutra OR it's on cooldown.

Demon FoW is quite good, I can't express how many times I spam it just as it is off cooldown -- from soloing the big fate janitors in cube (without distance shrinking) to PvP (we ganked the most OP sin once, and I literally sealed him just after it was off cooldown, actually I wish it was earlier!). Can't comment on the usefulness of the sage's tiny AOE version since I never saw it used. b:surrender

Demon DB is pathetic for its add, 500 HP and 25% chance every 3 sec is almost NOTHING! It's only good in CoA so you don't have to spam pots so often. I only learned it for completeness/a bit extra damage lol



EDIT: If you guys have any more serious/real questions about the demon/sage difference I can answer them better now that I tasted them myself (in regards to demon). So you can ask in this thread:)

Though I'm lacking a few skills atm

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Sage = mana independent.

BlastingWave - Harshlands

well at first i was gona go demon but with the psys here imma go sage now , reasons :
Almost all psychic skills hit harder than wizy skills with blackwoodo on except the three ultis which are still the best damg per hit . so if im going to rely more on my ultis than sage ofc . Yes demon has its perks but the 5% extra damg from masteries is necessary to atleast even out some of the damg differance with psy Yes crits are essential but you dont always crit , with sage BIDS its a different story , end point sage wizy cause of the insaane ultis and beacuse of only 10 chi per distance shrink which is insane xD

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Eh, sage psys get sage masteries too.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

i hate when psy go demon
just because

a psy must

have


AOE PURIFY!!!



/random

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver

personally im also looking forward for the effects of Sage divine pyro and glacial snare
because for pve purpose using udine all the time becomes quite mana consuming so even if the effects dont stack its nice to have free 20% more dmg that is also good for pvp because
sage divine pyro --> pyro or wop is a great dmg combo without having to cast undine in between

greetz harm0wnie

NonameWiz - Sanctuary

Necro??? :O

Laylor - Heavens Tear

Sage wizard here.
I personally tried sage vs demon in perfect world vendetta before making my choice on real PW, since its not an easy decision.
Well, I liked sage one more.

First of all: lots of chi. when you are low lvl you surely notice a wiz needs lots of chi both for pvp and pve (the barriers, distance shrink, sleep, Essential sutra!).
with sage pyrogram and Master Li's Technique you'll end up having tons of chi (always comes in handy anyway...).

Barriers: greater mag resistance. Plus, the difference between sage and demon stone barrier its really nothing. We are talking about a reduction of physical damage taken of about 2-3%...so its not like a demon stone barrier is uber awesome.

Masteries: well, doing +5% damage (+5attack lvl) surely helps, don't you think?
I personally prefer it to a +1% crit.

Force of will: Tw wise, its awesome. an aoe seal.

Wellspring: Stackable with Manifest virtue = greater boost to magic attack, who cares about channeling when you can hit like an atomic bomb? lols.

Ultimates: we can argue about this, but Sage ultimates are definitely better than demon ones.


what I can say about demon is: surely can "control" better an enemy in 1vs1 (more stuns, freezes' rate increased) and its channeling reduction is surely nice....
but what some demon wizards have written in here its completely wrong.

"demon sandstorm more damage than sage one" - totally wrong.
an additional 600 damage won't make up for a +5 attack lvl.

"demon frostblade > sage" - considering some people don't even want the buff...

"demon wellspring > sage" - look what I wrote about it ^_^

Adroit - Lost City

Laylor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sage wizard here.
I personally tried sage vs demon in perfect world vendetta before making my choice on real PW, since its not an easy decision.
Well, I liked sage one more.

First of all: lots of chi. when you are low lvl you surely notice a wiz needs lots of chi both for pvp and pve (the barriers, distance shrink, sleep, Essential sutra!).
with sage pyrogram and Master Li's Technique you'll end up having tons of chi (always comes in handy anyway...).

Barriers: greater mag resistance. Plus, the difference between sage and demon stone barrier its really nothing. We are talking about a reduction of physical damage taken of about 2-3%...so its not like a demon stone barrier is uber awesome.

Masteries: well, doing +5% damage (+5attack lvl) surely helps, don't you think?
I personally prefer it to a +1% crit.

Force of will: Tw wise, its awesome. an aoe seal.

Wellspring: Stackable with Manifest virtue = greater boost to magic attack, who cares about channeling when you can hit like an atomic bomb? lols.

Ultimates: we can argue about this, but Sage ultimates are definitely better than demon ones.


what I can say about demon is: surely can "control" better an enemy in 1vs1 (more stuns, freezes' rate increased) and its channeling reduction is surely nice....
but what some demon wizards have written in here its completely wrong.

"demon sandstorm more damage than sage one" - totally wrong.
an additional 600 damage won't make up for a +5 attack lvl.

"demon frostblade > sage" - considering some people don't even want the buff...

"demon wellspring > sage" - look what I wrote about it ^_^

Now would be an excellent time to stop posting.
You may want to take another look at stone barrier (how pdef reduction works) and sage/demon wellspring before replying.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Are you sure about the wellspring quaff for sage? It only adds 100% weapon damage, manifest virtue around there, together stacked they will be weaker than a double spark! Not sure how much of an atomic bomb that is. b:surrender

I agree about the ultimates, except for demon Mountain's Seize -- that 35m casting range is just epic in some situations.

Demon sandstorm doesn't do more damage if you take masteries into account, I agree... BUT it does crit more often, if you take masteries into account. b:chuckle

Are you really finding sage FoW useful in TW? I thought the area range was minuscule. (genuine question I've never seen anyone use it or talk about it b:surrender)

As for frostblade, why wouldn't people want a free 50% weapon damage / melee mastery for 15 minutes?

Adroit - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Are you sure about the wellspring quaff for sage? It only adds 100% weapon damage, manifest virtue around there, together stacked they will be weaker than a double spark! Not sure how much of an atomic bomb that is. b:surrender

I agree about the ultimates, except for demon Mountain's Seize -- that 35m casting range is just epic in some situations.

Demon sandstorm doesn't do more damage if you take masteries into account, I agree... BUT it does crit more often, if you take masteries into account. b:chuckle

Are you really finding sage FoW useful in TW? I thought the area range was minuscule. (genuine question I've never seen anyone use it or talk about it b:surrender)

As for frostblade, why wouldn't people want a free 50% weapon damage / melee mastery for 15 minutes?

I actually like sage FoW, works great when you have more than one melee on you.. or on someone else for that matter. All these melee group up nicely when they are atking the same target :P Sage FoW does have its moments in TW when people are standing almost on top of each other, but I find it most useful as a defense against multiple -int chars. It actually probably saved me in my first vid when El33tDeath + the sin were on me.. if the FoW had only sealed the bm I likely would have been tele stunned before the immobilize wore out and have been unable to get off my aerogear for half damage.