Sage advantages over Demon?

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Ok before you all read this thread, this is NOT a thread for sage vs demon based on your own preferences. This is a thread intended to help me choose. DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A FLAME WAR ON SAGE VS DEMON THANKS.

Sorry for starting it like that but I've been searching the forums and almost all threads have turned into flame wars.

_________________________


I've been considering Sage since I've read the skills some time ago. But now that I understand Sage Wellspring Quaff is **** and the description is wrong, plus the fact that Divine Pyrogram and Glacial Snare bonuses don't stack with Undine, I'm starting to seriously consider Demon.

So my first question is, what does Sage have over Demon besides the following:

Chi gaining technique, Masteries, and of course... BIDS?

Is there any advantage of going Sage besides the above in comparison to Demon? I wonder why do people these days think Demon wizzies are fail, is it ONLY because of BIDS? Seriously?

In comparison, Demon has a lot better skills. Divine Pyro and GS have less channeling, which is not that great but not as useless as a debuff that won't stack with Undine, Wellspring Quaff is a mini-sutra that lasts for 15 secs and costs 1 spark and cooldown 3 secs.

And of course there's Emberstorm which finally gets some use as Demon, cancelling the channel fast and having a 50% chance to stun (damage is pathetic anyway). Not to mention Hailstorm getting a boost to freeze chance, and MS extending its AOE range. The bonus on Blade Tempest is kinda ****, I mean how often and fast will you use BT to make a difference to cancel channeling? The devs didn't think this one through and it's only 50% chance. Meh.

Oh, and of course, Stone Barrier boosts more Physical Defense instead of Earth Defense, as Demon, which is preferable. Not to mention Frostblade which is better as Demon (more bonus > more duration).

The only "small" skill from Sage that is probably better than Demon is Pyrogram (except the ones mentioned above).

The bad things for Demon are, of course, BIDS and lacking the Chi technique. Masteries are debatable. 3% crit is less statistically powerful as 5% more damage but it can introduce more frequent spikes (but less damage on them!) which are often preferable.


I'm asking what exactly makes Sage wizzies so "pro" while Demon wizzies are often considered "fail"? BIDS and BIDS only? Seriously?

Thanks in advance.

RedsRose - Lost City

Use Search?

Shadowvzs - Lost City

demon not fail. sage more ulti launcher till dmeon more for raw pk...

i think its balanced.

Myriad_ - Lost City

Sages and Demon wizzies are fairly balanced.
Demon wizzies aren't considered fail at all, at least on my server where there are some 1337 demon wizzies, but some sages too.
The forum are way too biased to sage IMO, because of the crit on sage black ice.

Demon is very good in open world pvp, with more pdef, ability to use Dpyro and Gsnare, stun (emberstorm), lesser cooldown on fow, Wellspring etc. But sage can do well too, relying on using an ulti.

IMO, the point of going demon is to use 300% weapon damage skills instead of pyro/gush=>ulti to kill people.

Sage is good, but demon is definitely not gimped at all.
And if you look at some TW sage's videos, you will see that they are using all the time the 3 basic spells, and don't use ulti every 5 secs, like you could believe. Just check Haiz videos.

Some demon videos i found out :
_Anon_, with some good uses of glacial snares, but i think he should use Dpyro more often.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kVKU2szw-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hi9RPS7VdI

Lord_Maikeru, a guy who is freaking using stone rain all the time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LBMfAKLTD4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZPiGTmRpyg&feature=PlayList&p=8A374D85B59ACB40&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=35

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

I like most of the sage skills. Even the ones people called useless i found a use for (ok maybe except frostblade -.-). One of my favorites is hailstorm

Ursa - Dreamweaver

Shortly put:
PvE - TW Wizard = sage wizard.
1vs1 pvp wizard = demon wizard.

Chi gaining on Sage is insane. Helped with chi skill on genie (cloud erupt?) Sage becomes a machine of ultis. Mountain Sieze and Tempest are having a 50% chance to cast with a single spark.
Often happens in PvE that I can launch all 3 ultis: I can MS (stun for 6 seconds)(1 spark proc) - then BIDS - then chi skill on genie - BT and I still have 1 spark left d^_^b
In TW BIDS hurts, but so does BT and MS. Being able to launch a MS that aoe stuns and then a BIDS while no one can do anything about it is really a punishment that a Demon is not capable of (without using pots/genie).
Masteries wise, 5% dmg increase means nothing at lvl 92, but can mean everything at 100 with a +10 weapon. More damage/hit, more damage on ultis.

Demon on the other hand has the reduced channel, control and crit on his side.
If you like PvP alone or 1v1, slower channel times on demon skills, the 150% pdef and the Wellspring channel bonus are very welcome.
You have more means to control your opponent as a demon (hailstorm, ember, stonerain) and some added damage on the core skills (gush/SS) but as you can see, those control skills are not necessarily huge damage skills. If a stun from SR procs for example, opponent is big trouble. There is nothing worse that can happen when fighting a wizard than to give him time to cast his nukes or a sutra without you being able to interrupt him.


There is no better option here. Sage and Demon are equally powerful in the end, but each has it's own strengths. I know many wizards that would switch to Demon and many that would switch to Sage if they would have been given a way that doesn't cost and arm and a leg...and a kidney.

Sage wizards are more popular on PvE servers, because hands down, in PvE Sage wins over demon.
Demon wizards are more popular on PvPs, because you're not always out there with a bunch of friends that can cover your **** while you wipe everyone.

LE: One BIG correction: Demon MS can be cast from 35 meters, not 30. so it's not the AOE range extended as you said Borsuc, is the Range that you can cast from that's extended, and if I'm not mistaking, aside from archers with crossbows that have +2 to range, that's the longest range that a char can have ingame

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Thanks a lot everyone and I will check those videos when I can. b:victory

I should have probably mentioned I have Cloud Eruption on my str genie which gives me 152 chi, which probably makes a big difference for a Demon wizard which doesn't have as many chi-gaining capabilities (or less spark-using spells, like BT and MS for sage).

I know that in TW sage is preferred but I'm wondering how good can a Demon wizzie fare in comparison with good tactics and a genie with Cloud Eruption or apoth pots (for the needed chi). Because of course I also know that it is said in PK Demon wizzies are "the only way" when I know that's BS, so I'm wondering how it is the other way around?

Like, what would a good strategy in TW be for a Demon wizzie, to stop cata pulling barbs? Or AOE (weaker than a sage though) or use MS from afar (less notice) or w/e

Well, if I'll be going demon, as Demon at least I will have finally a reason to up Emberstorm b:chuckle

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

LE: One BIG correction: Demon MS can be cast from 35 meters, not 30. so it's not the AOE range extended as you said Borsuc, is the Range that you can cast from that's extended, and if I'm not mistaking, aside from archers with crossbows that have +2 to range, that's the longest range that a char can have ingame

That is really clarifying because I thought it was the AOE range not the casting range. It can actually be pretty useful seeing as it's one of the slowest spells for a wizard so casting it from afar helps.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

omg
Just save us all the trouble and go demon :S

Ursa - Dreamweaver

well, you're still talking about "the only way".

each cultivation has its own strengths. If your playstile fits one cultivation strengts, then there is only one way.
If you're a maleable player and you can quickly addapt and change the way you're playing your wizard, then depeding on what you want to do with it, choosing the right path will make your life much more easier.
Of course, sage wizard can PvP 1v1 just fine, and some of the most feared TW wizards on my server were demon.(I'm saying this cause pretty much silence hit the TW field when Pedestrian started nuking ppl with his +10 rank 8 and sage BIDS, lol. PPL with HA, BMs especially, were complaining he was hitting them for 10k with sandstorm, non crits, ha ha ha).
One other thing to remember, Demon has the upper hand until sage learns the 99 skills. That's when they really become ballanced. From 89 to 99 I think Demon is better in most sittuations (TW, PvP), except PvE. Sage becomes pretty much the king of TW at 99 when the lvl 11 ultis are available.

Amour - Lost City

Main bonuses of Sage vs Demon are;

Pyrogram proc - extra 30 chi for a skill you use all the time
Distance Shrink - half the chi (love this skill)
BIDS - Crit proc, ofc.
Tempest & Mountain - 1 Spark 50% of the time
Stone Rain - Lower Cast (I really like this skill)

I don't really consider 50 chi /minute better than -50 chi/30 seconds. People just need to learn how to use taunt as demon, no one uses it ._.

With all that said, I would go Demon if I didn't have to spend millions upon millions for all of my skills again.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

LE: One BIG correction: Demon MS can be cast from 35 meters, not 30. so it's not the AOE range extended as you said Borsuc, is the Range that you can cast from that's extended, and if I'm not mistaking, aside from archers with crossbows that have +2 to range, that's the longest range that a char can have ingame

bow could have attack distance too.

sage range mastery give +4m (demon give +2m), so with +2m weapon will be 36m range. (

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Amour - Lost City wrote: »

I don't really consider 50 chi /minute better than -50 chi/30 seconds. People just need to learn how to use taunt as demon, no one uses it ._.

Quite possibly and you can get another ~30 chi per minute with Elemental Shell (twice) if you don't plan to use it for anything else anyway, and need the chi while moving around. Master Li's technique isn't even instant.

Question for Demon BIDS: it says "20% chance without using a spark", I assume that means 2 sparks right? 20% chance without using chi at all? These descriptions can be confusing at times.

Myriad_ - Lost City

Amour - Lost City wrote: »

With all that said, I would go Demon if I didn't have to spend millions upon millions for all of my skills again.

Can we know the reasons why please? If its not too offensing b:surrender

Amour - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Quite possibly and you can get another ~30 chi per minute with Elemental Shell (twice) if you don't plan to use it for anything else anyway, and need the chi while moving around. Master Li's technique isn't even instant.

Question for Demon BIDS: it says "20% chance without using a spark", I assume that means 2 sparks right? 20% chance without using chi at all? These descriptions can be confusing at times.

It means if it procs, after you cast the spell, it will consume the 2 sparks, then give you the 2 sparks back right after. So yes, it'll be like you didn't use spark at all.

Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »

Can we know the reasons why please? If its not too offensing b:surrender

Well being high level in a competitive PvP scene, you find out channeling and crit is basically where it's at. Especially in terms of world PvP, I can't use ultimates effectively (people are spread out, I don't want to hit innocent bystanders etc). Skills such as hell stone barrier would be nicer too, along with 3% more crit from masteries. Hell is definitely more focused on single target dps rather than AoE spike.

I would suffer in TW though, I love my chi and sage bids there.

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Shortly put:
PvE - TW Wizard = sage wizard.
1vs1 pvp wizard = demon wizard.
becomes

i strongly disagree.

both are good for tw both are good for 1v1 pk

i tw less this days and just pvp and some of the sage bonus's helped me win some fights demon could not.

both are awesome so u cant go wrong either way u go

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

go demon and be happy!

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

Mo tzu Taunt doesnt give you chi

all a demon can do is take b:cute






tbh ..the chi skill is the best sage have ^^ (yeah its better then bids :P)

prof

holy = more damage in 1 hit
dark = more damage over time

b:byeI don't miss any of you holy-****'s.

Adroit - Lost City

prof wrote: »

holy = more damage in 1 hit
dark = more damage over time

b:byeI don't miss any of you holy-****'s.

lolz.. this n00b again. That has got to be one of the worst descriptions of sage vs. demon I've ever read.

prof

disprove it and I'll consider your post valid.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i strongly disagree.

both are good for tw both are good for 1v1 pk

i tw less this days and just pvp and some of the sage bonus's helped me win some fights demon could not.

both are awesome so u cant go wrong either way u go

i strongly disagree too if i get same refined weapon like u :P until that in 1vs1 demon better b:surrender

(hehe with +4 tt99 i hit only 5,5k with 3rd spark+79debuff+frenzy+ext.poison+sage bids on sage bm if he self buffed only, and he isnt cash shoper or something)

Adroit - Lost City

prof wrote: »

disprove it and I'll consider your post valid.

It's your job to back up what you're saying.. lmao

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

i strongly disagree too if i get same refined weapon like u :P until that in 1vs1 demon better b:surrender

(hehe with +4 tt99 i hit only 5,5k with 3rd spark+79debuff+frenzy+ext.poison+sage bids on sage bm if he self buffed only, and he isnt cash shoper or something)

You're doing something wrong if you can only hit a BM for 5.5k with triple spark BIDS + all the debuffs. One cultivation is not better than the other, its just personal preference.

prof

I made a claim based on my personal experience, and you simply said "No, you're wrong.". I said all I had to. Tell me how what I've claimed it untrue in any way, shape or form, or don't reply.

simple, eh?

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

It's your job to back up what you're saying.. lmao



You're doing something wrong if you can only hit a BM for 5.5k with triple spark BIDS + all the debuffs. One cultivation is not better than the other, its just personal preference.

idk but against 11-12k(14k with cleric buff) mdef i cant handle more than 6k non crit.... (lv79 debuff work only with base mdef so dont change the +180%+60% mdef).

cultivation change in speed, target control XD (sage mastery advatage appear with good weapon refine)

http://pwcalc.ru/my/?char=342ef94f65e06400

when u debuffed him maybe around 9,7k mdef left :P

full buffed http://pwcalc.ru/my/?char=b9920bedaf2e3e91 if u debuff 12k+ mdef

i got 20k max mattrack with triple spark so gl to 1 hit him :P

my wizz is in pw ms (i have here only sin and psy on harshland XD)

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2645/20100604180843.jpg

here a duel (failed cause this was after bounty hunter in fb and i forget remove the pk white names)

all was buffed (sakis barb,sep light cleric,lema archer,nihal veno,whiteking bm with mdef sutra and only lv90) u can notice the same combo on bm is pretty low during mdef sutra XD

Myriad_ - Lost City

prof wrote: »

holy = more damage in 1 hit
dark = more damage over time

b:byeI don't miss any of you holy-****'s.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

lolz.. this n00b again. That has got to be one of the worst descriptions of sage vs. demon I've ever read.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

It's your job to back up what you're saying.. lmao

I agree, why would we trust your opinion if you don't bother to prove and explain it a little?

"holy = more damage in 1 hit". lol gratz you know how to read the description of sage mastery. But considering how praticable is to use Dpyro, GSnare when you are demon, yes demons can use mini nukes easier, compensating it (don't forget the addon on Sandstorm too)

"dark = more damage over time" lolwut? what's damage over time? dot? you mean demons are better to kill boss? But in pvp, damage over time is irrelevant, especially when ppl are charmed. Channeling is not meant to increase your damage over time, it just lets you use the nukes i told earlier, and the ultis easier, no more no less, for two or three shotting ppl. Crit is self explanatory.

So like Amour said, channeling and crit are the principal factors in world pvp, so choose the culti you think it will help you pvp the most.

Even in TW, sages and demons are even, though sage is of course statistically better, because in all the videos, ppl get 3 sparks thx to pots, and they don't have the opportunity to throw one ulti every single time they have 2 sparks, because simply, you must wait until ppl are bunched up, wait the good time, you are busy kiting/surviving or sometimes you are just walking to the base etc... so yeah this difference tends to vanish, though sage have the greatest potential in TW imo.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »

"dark = more damage over time" lolwut? what's damage over time? dot? you mean demons are better to kill boss?

ok its pretty similiar, cause demon reduced duration, sage more fire dot.


maybe he meant different tan dots, like faster casting with reduced castin skill+wq in longer time or idk.

anwynd

just like to say isnt it only 1% crit for each element not 3% sense i believe they dont stack

Myriad_ - Lost City

anwynd wrote: »

just like to say isnt it only 1% crit for each element not 3% sense i believe they dont stack

No they stack.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

From the description I think the Demon masteries give you 1% crit. It has nothing whatsoever to do with element, unlike the sage masteries. So of course they stack. 1% per element would be **** since that's only 1% crit.

1% is almost 5 times worse than 5% more damage (or +5 atk lvl). Of course 5% is only for one element, and 1% crit is for everything, so in total it is 3% crit (versus still 5% for every spell). Relatively balanced IMO.

As for the "damage over time" maybe he meant DPS, since Demon faster channeling allows you a greater DPS in, say, 10 seconds, since you get to cast more spells. Well probably.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

demon spark is pretty good dps... makes u able to cast more skills in double-attack-time

but sage otherwise can spark more cause of pyro? (???)

i dont know any EQUAL geared and skilled sage wizard here ;( only low refined weapon with barely any lvl11skills and lots of vit or +10 sages (hi xegeth :P) to test it


i picked demon cause the lvl92 skills of sage suck ... and i didnt bother with lvl99 skills (as lvling was slow back when i had to choose :P)


so .. Stun Aoe casting with no spark is better then dragon casting with no spark..
as you most likely stun first? +1 sage

why the heck do you need more edef?? demon barriers are awesome ( i only have the + mana shield though, as the stone barrier doesnt seem to drop ;/ ) +demon anyways :P


--
considering 92skills are rare, you cant get stone barrier (not counting packs)
but you can get the 99dragon pretty easy by running cube
and demon chi-destroying skill is almost of no use vs sage chi gain

wich is better ?

MagicHamsta - Lost City

sage has the advantage of a 50% chance to gain +30% crit chance on all skills for 10 seconds at the cost of 0 sparks, 655 mana, and 5.6 sec channeling. (you could probably drop it in sutra to make it 1.6 sec)
Prerequisite: Sage BIDS and 2 sparks.
o.o'

Sage's Crit mastery.