Claw Barb vs Claw/Fist BM

Lucifer - Dreamweaver

Ive been seeing alotta Barbs these days with with Lunar claws thinking they're the next BM, my question is are they better then a claw BM? Do they hit as hard or harder? I would think not since they dump points into vit as well and Dex and Strength. Leave your opinions with Well supported facts.

Example: lvl 100 barb with Lunar claws hits me for 400, i hit a 100 Barb for 200 with lvl70 3 star fists and 400 with demon spark, so from what i saw, he didnt hit too hard as i would think and he didnt have the Hp as a normal barb does.

I personally think Claw BMs are generally better with fist/claw barbs due to stuns,silence(smack), marrow, and higher dex. Also combos like HF and BR with claws, but thats why i made this thread, i wanna get everyone elses opinions. So lets debate b:victory

RedsRose - Lost City

The answer is: Interval

Most barbs just do not have it.....

Sjuggs - Lost City

And barbs dont have Fist/Claw mastery b:sweat

Okeano - Harshlands

It's been shown that Barbs with interval gears and self buffed actually out DPS fists BM with interval gears and self buffed... Think with the added weapon bonus from demon spark, Sins have better DPS with -0.1 fists/claws than -0.1 daggers too, if they are not at 3.33 unsparked with daggers already.

One of the reasons I think fists/claws should be changed to limited to BM's only, or have a server reduction when used by other class.

Devoted - Lost City

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

It's been shown that Barbs with interval gears and self buffed actually out DPS fists BM with interval gears and self buffed...

Maybe just auto attacking with 3 spark.. there is plenty a bm can do to out dps a claw barb. Pvp bm wins hands down, pve wise I'd much prefer to be able to dragon/dbb/gs etc.. and out dps a barb who can only patk+wood+normal attack.

Korg - Lost City

i think i read somewhere on this forum that barbs get the biggest benefit from dex aswell.. could be wrong
anybody wanna clarify this? b:puzzled

oyamajio

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

It's been shown that Barbs with interval gears and self buffed actually out DPS fists BM with interval gears and self buffed... Think with the added weapon bonus from demon spark, Sins have better DPS with -0.1 fists/claws than -0.1 daggers too, if they are not at 3.33 unsparked with daggers already.

One of the reasons I think fists/claws should be changed to limited to BM's only, or have a server reduction when used by other class.

LOL, yes right, shown in a big black box to a noob. Do you even play a bm? BM is the only class designed to fully utilize fist with SKILLs, so the name goes BLADE MASTER. I'm not talking about a noob fail bm. I'm talking about SKILLs brought to you by PWI. But it's more than enough to pick only the main skills Cyclone Heel (demon version deals a good damage + 20% attack speed increase), fist mastery (demon version adds 75% more weapon damage and +1% crit bonus). Top them up with demon spark, there you go - any class should roll a bm because they are simply "FAIL CLASSES" if they ever want to beat their fist master with fists.

Fist is the closest range type of weapon, so you'd better run for your life when attempting to use fist to beat a fist bm, including the new squeezy class SIN. So you SIN had better hide yourself from being detected. I'm talking about similar gear, levels and brain, ok.

Damn, why I even care about this. It happens all the time.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

One of the reasons I think fists/claws should be changed to limited to BM's only, or have a server reduction when used by other class.

Self buffs arent a valid arguement. a cleric with HA can get more p.def then a barb due to self buffs. In general Any self buff that can be cast on a group, is meant to be considered as a group buff. In TW you'd have those buffs, in a dungeon you'd get em as well.

And saying fists should be limited to BMs is a complete oversight of the problem. One of the great things about PW is that anyone can use anything if you want to go outside the box with your stat distribution, but you end up sacrificing many other things. (Excluding TB weapons, of course a development not in line with the original line of thinking.)

-Interval needs an adjustment to -% rather then static amount, thats the problem. quick weapons + static interval was just not examined close enough by the devs during creating of the game. Until Anni Pack gear it wasnt even able to be gotten to such an extent and they destroyed balance because it doesnt scale with all weaponry the same way as -chan.

The fact that anyone can pick up a quick weapon & +Int and out dmg their standard build conception shows the problem is in the way those work together, for ANYONE (including BMs), and should be adjusted accordingly. (And before BMs argue just cause of their high investments, think about it, you out DPS everyone while on auto-attack & afk grabbing a sandwich, you are not a skilled DPS just by picking up fist & -Int gear.)

Pure_Black - Harshlands

In group dynamics and usage of right skills at the right time BM beats barb.

In solo PVE and PVP barb beats BM just because that's done self buffed and not party buffed. The extra wood damage barbs get from Poison fang is about the same BM's get from fist mastery.

And self buffed Barbs have the + phys att buff, and BM's don't. So yes in these cases barbs CAN out dps a bm.

Okeano - Harshlands

oyamajio wrote: »

LOL, yes right, shown in a big black box to a noob. Do you even play a bm? BM is the only class designed to fully utilize fist with SKILLs, so the name goes BLADE MASTER. I'm not talking about a noob fail bm. I'm talking about SKILLs brought to you by PWI. But it's more than enough to pick only the main skills Cyclone Heel (demon version deals a good damage + 20% attack speed increase), fist mastery (demon version adds 75% more weapon damage and +1% crit bonus). Top them up with demon spark, there you go - any class should roll a bm because they are simply "FAIL CLASSES" if they ever want to beat their fist master with fists.

Fist is the closest range type of weapon, so you'd better run for your life when attempting to use fist to beat a fist bm, including the new squeezy class SIN. So you SIN had better hide yourself from being detected. I'm talking about similar gear, levels and brain, ok.

Damn, why I even care about this. It happens all the time.

Yes, I do play

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver

a BM.

I pointed out that Barb with full interval can out DPS a BM self buffed, and that's part of what OP is asking. I didn't say fists Barb is better at PvP than fists BM now did I?

PenutButer - Dreamweaver

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

a BM.

It's a fact Barb self buffed will out DPS a BM self buffed, and that's part of what OP is asking. I didn't say fists Barb is better at PvP than fists BM now did I?

Hai DD b:bye. Fist barbs look like ****. Fist BMs look pro.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Korg - Lost City wrote: »

i think i read somewhere on this forum that barbs get the biggest benefit from dex aswell.. could be wrong
anybody wanna clarify this? b:puzzled

They get less accuracy per dex point, but they also get bloodbath as a buff. So in the end, their accuracy is better; which allows them to go minimum dex and boost str higher, for more damage and still better accuracy. Until purged.

Lucifer - Dreamweaver

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

They get less accuracy per dex point, but they also get bloodbath as a buff. So in the end, their accuracy is better; which allows them to go minimum dex and boost str higher, for more damage and still better accuracy. Until purged.

yea but also it takes a chunk of HP out of a barb. =/

Lucifer - Dreamweaver

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

It's been shown that Barbs with interval gears and self buffed actually out DPS fists BM with interval gears and self buffed... Think with the added weapon bonus from demon spark, Sins have better DPS with -0.1 fists/claws than -0.1 daggers too, if they are not at 3.33 unsparked with daggers already.

One of the reasons I think fists/claws should be changed to limited to BM's only, or have a server reduction when used by other class.

Yea thats somethin i totaly have to agree on is that they should change fist/claws to only BM's. And cashoppers can QQ all they want if it happens. And i also think its bull that all classes can u fist/claws but if i wanna use daggers i cant (not that i would want to because that would be a noob move) but just to point out. And i cant use crosbows either =/.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Lucifer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yea but also it takes a chunk of HP out of a barb. =/

They have health buff, which ends up negating the health debuff of bloodbath while still adding more health above it. And that's before going celestial in the skills.

Daikataro - Dreamweaver

Korg - Lost City wrote: »

i think i read somewhere on this forum that barbs get the biggest benefit from dex aswell.. could be wrong
anybody wanna clarify this? b:puzzled

Wrong, a blademaster is the class that benefits the most from each point spent in dex, since we get as much as +10 eva and +10 acc per dex point, unlike barbs, who get 8 of each

Now it is virtually impossible for a barb to better using fists/claws than a BM, unless of course the barbarian has HEAVILY gemmed and refined gear (+10 lunar claws with dual garnet gems or drakeflame stones for example) and the BM has poor equips like let's say unsharded, unrefined buddha fists, reason? masteries

regular lvl 10 fist mastery = 60% more damage output with fists/claws than barbs
sage fist mastery = 90% more damage output
demon fist mastery = 75% more damage output and +1% crit

Now the -interval gear is not a REAL reason because what we can wear, barbs can wear, we're both HA users after all, so they can also use TT90 gold heavy wristguards for example, love up and down and the lunar robe don't require anything special to be able to wear them so they can wear those as well

Needless to say, the barbarian would need to have a build similar to a blademaster's, or rely heavily on gear that increases dex in order to be able to use fist/claw, which will reduce their overall hp and thus, make them easier to take down and worst part: a lousier tank, barbs are not sought after because of their dps, but because of their tanking ability

So i would say no, a barb cannot have a higher damage output than a BM if they have the same weapon with comparable stats, and one more thing: their skills don't work with fists/claws equipped, ours do

Meursault - Dreamweaver

^False. Barb buffs Strength of Titans and Poison Fang make up for the lack of Fist Mastery.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Full -int claw barbs are pretty brutal. They can take their place back as being primary tank if they really want to. I'm sure they like that.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

-Interval needs an adjustment to -% rather then static amount, thats the problem. quick weapons + static interval was just not examined close enough by the devs during creating of the game. Until Anni Pack gear it wasnt even able to be gotten to such an extent and they destroyed balance because it doesnt scale with all weaponry the same way as -chan.

I disagree. An equally geared mage vs a fist bm at endgame... mage is still more broken. In PvE, yeah, fist bm is pretty unbalanced.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I disagree. An equally geared mage vs a fist bm at endgame... mage is still more broken. In PvE, yeah, fist bm is pretty unbalanced.

I agree with you. Trying to approach a mage, see him doing 5k hits and bam your dead.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I agree with you. Trying to approach a mage, see him doing 5k hits and bam your dead.

There are mages on LC that can gush for 5-6k

Damage - Dreamweaver

Ive been wondering about this too so i did a lil research o.o


Lvl 100 Demon BM

- (Demon) Aura of the Golden Bell
- (Demon) Fist Mastery
- All interval items (4.00 unsparked)
- All items +12
- 10+ Vit stones

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=77fe6e563af172c1


Lvl 100 Demon Barb

- (Demon) Strength of the Titans
- (Demon) Beast King's Inspiration
- All interval items (4.00 unsparked)
- All items +12
- 10+ Vit stones

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=937d6095240f06ba


Lvl 100 Demon BM

- Highest Phys Def
- Lowest HP
- Highest DMG


Lvl 100 Demon Barb

- Lowest Phys Def
- Highest HP
- Lowest DMG


BUT! What we havent thought about is the "Poison Fang" skill that barbs have!


Lvl 100 Demon BM

- (Demon) Fist Mastery - Increase all fist weapon damage by 75% and increases critical hit rate.


Lvl 100 Demon Barb

- (Demon) Strength of the Titans - A raging roar renders you and squad members more powerful. Physical damage increases by 40% of weapon attack and critical hit rate also increases. Lasts 30 minutes.
- (Demon) Poison Fang - Each attack deals an extra 40% of weapon attack
in Wood damage for 15 minutes.


Demon BM - 75% Phys Attack
Demon Barb - 40% Phys Attack + 40% Wood Damage


I know BM's got fist skills which probly would make them win this
But i guess its up to people to decide how they wanna build their class o.o

Cybetron - Harshlands

Of course the BM could win this argument hands down if it was taken PvP-wise simply because of the plethora of skills he has that can be used with fists/claws. The barb's weapon mastery is sadly only for the axes and hammers. But tanking-wise the barbs might hold aggro a tad better maybe. The demon barb's main advantages (taking Poison Fang into account ofcourse) would be the passive 35% extra crit he gets from Onslaught and the extra chi he gets from Beastial Rage, enabling him to 3 spark faster.

Assuming that the effect of +crit doesn't show until the attack is fully cast (not sure whether the effect procs if the barb switches from axes to fists in the middle of the cast) Demon onslaught has 8 sec cooldown and the effect lasts 6 secs. The cast and channel time add up to 1.5 secs. So effectively, the barb would have a +35% extra crit every 3.5 secs. And an ability to spark quicker if he does keep the aggro.

Just a small observation from my side b:thanks Thoughts?

Telarith - Sanctuary

Cybetron - Harshlands wrote: »

Of course the BM could win this argument hands down if it was taken PvP-wise simply because of the plethora of skills he has that can be used with fists/claws. The barb's weapon mastery is sadly only for the axes and hammers. But tanking-wise the barbs might hold aggro a tad better maybe. The demon barb's main advantages (taking Poison Fang into account ofcourse) would be the passive 35% extra crit he gets from Onslaught and the extra chi he gets from Beastial Rage, enabling him to 3 spark faster.

Assuming that the effect of +crit doesn't show until the attack is fully cast (not sure whether the effect procs if the barb switches from axes to fists in the middle of the cast) Demon onslaught has 8 sec cooldown and the effect lasts 6 secs. The cast and channel time add up to 1.5 secs. So effectively, the barb would have a +35% extra crit every 3.5 secs. And an ability to spark quicker if he does keep the aggro.

Just a small observation from my side b:thanks Thoughts?

So stopping 5 APS for 1.5 sec cast/channel, plus the aftercast time (counted once as it is assumed to aftercast cancel spark with Onslaught) means you're looking at a minimum of 2-2.5 secs lost, or 10-12.5 attacks. The +35% crit would, if done enough, count as an extra 1.75 attacks per second. Multiply by 6 and it's only 10.5 attacks worth. And this is counting as if you had no existing crit, since you'd be losing out on that as well during the lull. In the end, either no gain or loss with this method, and weapon swapping can likely **** timing up further.

Most OP is gonna be sin with Warsoul fists, followed by archer with Warsoul, then BM and Barb far behind them.

Cybetron - Harshlands

Well the 10.5-12.5 attacks that you assumed would be achieved if the barb/bm would be perma-3 sparked which isn't the case - there will always be a small window where the attacks do 3.33 (normal).. if exercised properly the Onslaught can be timed to proc just before a demon spark thereby increasing the crit from 25% (fist barb/bm crit with pretty good gear) to a whopping 60% where every other hit is almost likely to be a crit - which would be just too much of a dps with Demon spark. The same thing can be repeated more easily with a barb because of the Beastial Rage.

Also the assumption is that Onslaught has to be cast completely for the effect proc which actually might not be the case (like Sage wiz's BIDS) and in turn takes the interval time to 0 or 1 sec (assuming clicking twice for wep switches take this long)..

Thirdly, even if the Onslaught isn't considered an option here Beastial Rage still allows the barb to get 3 sparked quite often than the bm..

Edit for a little bit of Mathematics:-
Let the base attack be 'x'

For the 2.5 seconds for Onslaught cast, the BM would be doing 3.33 aps.
3.33x * 2.5 = 8.325x

While sparked, he would have a crit of 25% so 1/4th of the time he would be doing double damage. Assuming the demon spark dmg is 5x (for simplicity; I know it's +500% of wep dmg)
15*5*5x*3/4 = 281.25x
15*5*10x*1/4 = 187.5x

Equaling 477.075x

The barb misses out the 2.5 seconds worth attacking.
6 seconds of demon spark + 60% crit -
0.6*6*5*10x = 180x
0.4*6*5*5x = 60x
The rest of the 9 seconds of demon spark with 25% crit
9*5*10x*1/4 = 112.5x
9*5*5x*3/4 = 168.75x

Equaling 521.25x + the onslaught damage. Not to mention this damage is done far more often. I apologize for the long post

Hippie - Harshlands

Lucifer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ive been seeing alotta Barbs these days with with Lunar claws thinking they're the next BM, my question is are they better then a claw BM? Do they hit as hard or harder? I would think not since they dump points into vit as well and Dex and Strength. Leave your opinions with Well supported facts.

Example: lvl 100 barb with Lunar claws hits me for 400, i hit a 100 Barb for 200 with lvl70 3 star fists and 400 with demon spark, so from what i saw, he didnt hit too hard as i would think and he didnt have the Hp as a normal barb does.

I personally think Claw BMs are generally better with fist/claw barbs due to stuns,silence(smack), marrow, and higher dex. Also combos like HF and BR with claws, but thats why i made this thread, i wanna get everyone elses opinions. So lets debate b:victory

Fist barb has close to zero potential in pvp.

Damage - Dreamweaver

Hippie - Harshlands wrote: »

Fist barb has close to zero potential in pvp.

Maybe thats how you think



(Wolfgore - Heaven's Tear)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUJrDMcJNU

His forum thread - http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=553941


This still looks pretty sick to me XD

Telarith - Sanctuary

Cybetron - Harshlands wrote: »

Well the 10.5-12.5 attacks that you assumed would be achieved if the barb/bm would be perma-3 sparked which isn't the case - there will always be a small window where the attacks do 3.33 (normal).. if exercised properly the Onslaught can be timed to proc just before a demon spark thereby increasing the crit from 25% (fist barb/bm crit with pretty good gear) to a whopping 60% where every other hit is almost likely to be a crit - which would be just too much of a dps with Demon spark. The same thing can be repeated more easily with a barb because of the Beastial Rage.

4 APS is just slightly under perma-spark, you have around 3 or 4 non-sparked hits before you gain 3 full sparks. 5 APS (3.33 plus demon spark), gains you over 350 chi, don't care how much, but it is well over 3 chi needed to never fall out of sparked status. So you need to redo the math to account for the BM attacking at 5 APS, if not channeling spark.

No idea where 5 APS doesn't perma-spark came from. The only difficulty might be in not hitting demon spark too early, and losing a second or two of damage. But if a fister has a natural 3.33 APS, they can be counted as permanent spark status on a non-mobile mob, with 5 APS.

Cancel casting will invite more issues, and make finalizing after cast time more of an issue. You end up gaining at least one from demon spark, another from cancel casting, and the time wasted swapping between weapon to cancel cast it for the boost. So you're still going to be losing roughly 2 seconds in actuality, regardless of how the theory would work. Also can't do it during the fight, without the aftercast from stopping normal attack, swapping, cancel casting, after cast + swapping back. Some of it will overlap, but still falling behind due to the aftercasts even if you have all the options on your hotkeys in a row to speed it up.

EDIT: Also need to readjust the math on barb, as somehow the Onslaught proc appears in the spark time, with nothing shown for time to do it. You need to either reduce the sparked time total due to using Onslaught during the spark, or reduce Onslaught buff to 2 seconds as you're doing it before sparking.

Lucifer - Dreamweaver

Last thing im gonna add is the fact that barbs have sucky accuracy as it is and they dont get alotta good accuracy outta putting points into dex. Also, they'll have to use BloodBath reducing the HP of the abrb by about 1.3-1.5k HP. Most barbs that go claw/fist i see have around 11k-13k HP buffed standing up at 100. Its a hard battle but i think the BM wins here just because of skills, not to mention Cyclone heel demon form gives 20% attack speed bonus combined with 4.00 aps will bump up a good amount, making it alot better to perm spark =P

Telarith - Sanctuary

Lucifer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last thing im gonna add is the fact that barbs have sucky accuracy as it is and they dont get alotta good accuracy outta putting points into dex. Also, they'll have to use BloodBath reducing the HP of the abrb by about 1.3-1.5k HP. Most barbs that go claw/fist i see have around 11k-13k HP buffed standing up at 100. Its a hard battle but i think the BM wins here just because of skills, not to mention Cyclone heel demon form gives 20% attack speed bonus combined with 4.00 aps will bump up a good amount, making it alot better to perm spark =P

Sad thing is, at 4 APS, sage Cyclone is better. 10% speed boost works as good as a 29% speed boost, everything in between has the same effect. Only duration matters, and sage gets 5 seconds more. Only thing more than 10% does, is counter attack speed debuffs. Higher than 29% might be enough to counter non-ribstrike debuffs from some bosses to still maintain 5 APS.

Cybetron - Harshlands

@Telarith: Yep you are absolutely right. I miscalculated on the chi brought by 5 aps and it does give a perma-spark. I guess the Onslaught doesn't matter now. And since the 5 aps itself gives a permaspark, beastial rage wouldn't be a factor here as well.

I agree to your second point too - canceling the channel of the boss does have its advantages in almost all instances and surely shadowless kick is much faster than us going back to tiger for alacrity. We can use earthquake (genie skill) but that's not the point because so can you.

So, even though Poison Fang might decrease the damage difference between the barb and bm, a fist/claw BM will definitely have an edge over a fist/claw barb in both PvE and PvP situations.