Will Demon Spark be Nerfed?

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  • Graviora - Dreamweaver
    Graviora - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,073 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    b:sad

    I like my demon spark as it is...
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  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Now that I think more about it the veno's Demon spark is one of the worst demon sparks out there.

    First of all it does add both magic and physical dmg but you can't use them both at the same time.

    Secondly it has no channeling or atk speed increase making it much inferior endgame (and hell, by the time you get it you are near endgame already) due to the fact that you'll probably have a good base damage without spark (due to str/mag).

    Even at my level I have more than 300 mag, making it 400% base weapon damage bonus. 25% speed increase would grant an extra 100% just based on this alone. Of course, 25% faster channeling isn't exactly 25% faster since casting is not reduced (not fair b:sad) but close for wizards.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    hmm talking physical only, 25% speed increase versus 150% more weapon damage.

    150% weapon dmg means the bonus from an extra 225 str for melee.

    Remember that the "500%" BM bonus is actually, on average versus a veno, a 625% increase due to the 25% faster atk speed. But the 25% also affects the previous base attack damage. Simply put, the more str you have, the more effective the 25% speed increase is in contrast to a veno's bonus.

    And you only need like what? 25% of weapon dmg to be equivalent? I'd say by the time you get Demon spark you have plenty of str for that...

    I'd say the 25% faster atk speed is way better, at least for physical damage.

    Yes, but you're looking at it differently... a veno is primarily a caster.... they get either a 700% or 900% bonus to their spell damage. A 700% or 900% boost in weapon damage vs 25% speed increase.... 700% would be an increase of 40% base damage over 500%... that might turn the tides in favor of the higher percentage... but I haven't and won't do the math, too much work for me.

    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Now that I think more about it the veno's Demon spark is one of the worst demon sparks out there.

    It adds 700% magic attack... a veno triple sparking HURTS like hell. Throw in an instant channeling pot and it's game over if you're on the receiving end.
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  • Teny - Heavens Tear
    Teny - Heavens Tear Posts: 260 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I have yet to see a proper nerf of skills happen on this game, China has been through several as I recall.

    I did contact PWE about it and the only answer I got was the same **** everyone gets, "Stay tuned and read our patch notes for future changes !!!"

    A lot of hate spam and so forth will ensue if the nerf sticks on China and makes it way here.

    Be it limiting claws to BMs or nerfing the demon spark or attack rate in some way, PWE has profited significantly on players that have built their characters gear for the sole purpose of being able to obtain such high speeds.

    If that were to suddenly be taken away, 'nuff said.
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Yes, but you're looking at it differently... a veno is primarily a caster.... they get either a 700% or 900% bonus to their spell damage. A 700% or 900% boost in weapon damage vs 25% speed increase.... 700% would be an increase of 40% base damage over 500%... that might turn the tides in favor of the higher percentage... but I haven't and won't do the math, too much work for me.
    Spell damage goes as: 1 + mag/100 + spark

    Most casters by 90 have about 400 magic. So the boost from Sage spark is only

    (1 + 4 + 9) / (1 + 4) = 2.8x normal damage

    Demon spark is

    (1 + 4 + 7) / (1 + 4) = 2.4x normal damage.

    And the ratio of the two is just 2.8/2.4 = 16.67%. Sage spark does 16.67% has more m.atk. Add in that the spells have a large fixed or weapon damage component (independent of sparks) and you're only talking about maybe a 10%-12% final DPS advantage for Sage veno while triple sparked.

    The 25% speedup on the wiz and cleric sparks probably have about the same real effectiveness. I'm not sure how the mechanics for it work, but assuming it simply decreases your channeling by 25%, and spells have 25%-50% of their delay as a fixed cast delay, you're talking about a 5%-12.5% increase in DPS.

    As for veno melee, bear in mind that:
    • Veno weapons have slightly (but not by much) gimpier damage for their speed than melee weapons.
    • Melee damage on magic weapons refines the same as magic damage. So the lunar wand which does much less damage per hit than lunar claws in their base form, is doing more damage per hit than the claws by the time you've refined both to +10.
    • Venos get huge melee mastery bonuses compared to melee classes. 200% for Sage, 150% for Demon.
    • In practice, the higher Demon triple spark and crit rate balances out the difference in melee mastery, and the two do about the same DPS in fox form.

    Due to the lack of -interval on magic weapons and no attack speedup on triple spark, fox venos are never going to hold a candle to a max interval BM or assassin. But I'm very happy with the melee damage on my heavy veno. It's not burst damage like spells, but on long fights I regularly steal aggro from barbs and wizards. I'm to the point now where I have to use two magic rings instead of might rings to avoid stealing aggro from my herc.
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Due to the lack of -interval on magic weapons and no attack speedup on triple spark, fox venos are never going to hold a candle to a max interval BM or assassin. But I'm very happy with the melee damage on my heavy veno. It's not burst damage like spells, but on long fights I regularly steal aggro from barbs and wizards. I'm to the point now where I have to use two magic rings instead of might rings to avoid stealing aggro from my herc.

    Ordinarily they are behind .1 interval, .2 with no weapon having interval. However they still end up with the ability to use Relentless Assault, or apoths to boost their APS up. 25% crimson powder would boost to 2.86, while Relentless with at least 28% buff would let them attack at 3.33 rate. Which isn't that far from fists if they reduce fist attack to 4 ceiling, and as good if they drop it to 3.33 or lower. And with their higher refine rate, it isn't very pretty. Except for the venos, who get that + pet damage.
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  • Yulk - Heavens Tear
    Yulk - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,951 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Guys, you have to live with it, although I love having fists and having high attack speed, but come on people. My fists already rock on my BM and I don't need no overpowered demon spark. Relentless courage + intervals + even LVL1 spark is great already, fists are far from weak without it. 25% channeling / attack speed bonus from demon spark should get nerfed by a little bit, its a bit too far anyways. 15%-20% is more preferable
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    HA > LA > AR... GG

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  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    If they nerf demon spark they should beef up the demon chi skill IMO.


    Not saying they s hould nerf demon spark, just saying they should beef up the chi skill, I've found it to be rarely useful.
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  • Brigid - Harshlands
    Brigid - Harshlands Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Guys, you have to live with it, although I love having fists and having high attack speed, but come on people. My fists already rock on my BM and I don't need no overpowered demon spark. Relentless courage + intervals + even LVL1 spark is great already, fists are far from weak without it. 25% channeling / attack speed bonus from demon spark should get nerfed by a little bit, its a bit too far anyways. 15%-20% is more preferable
    You speak from your vast experience with triple sparks? From your level 34 BM, or maybe your level 5x barb?

    And yes, Mo Zun's Taunt is pretty useless. I still haven't had a single situation come up where I'd bother using it.
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »
    And yes, Mo Zun's Taunt is pretty useless. I still haven't had a single situation come up where I'd bother using it.

    Use it against any class that requires chi? Mage, warrior, barb etc..

    You should be using it on cool down in tw. Mo Zun's Taunt is an extremely useful pvp skill against most classes and it is crucial in tw against cata pullers and mages.
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Use it against any class that requires chi? Mage, warrior, barb etc..

    You should be using it on cool down in tw. Mo Zun's Taunt is an extremely useful pvp skill against most classes and it is crucial in tw against cata pullers and mages.

    Dx
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  • Arkaminus - Harshlands
    Arkaminus - Harshlands Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    why nurf demon spark , evryone will just go sage thenb:shocked
    Those who constantly complain about the bad things in life always end up in the worst positions.
    so forget about what's bad and enjoy what's good.
  • Darksylph - Heavens Tear
    Darksylph - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,816 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »
    Dx
    oh noes~!
    Devoted be eating me chi
    (>.<)'
    b:shocked

    Devoted be working against your ebil master plan for the humans b:chuckle
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Arkaminus - Harshlands wrote: »
    why nurf demon spark , evryone will just go sage thenb:shocked
    Think it's a coincidence that they're talking about a cash shop item to let you change your culti from Demon to Sage or vice versa? b:chuckle
  • Brigid - Harshlands
    Brigid - Harshlands Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Use it against any class that requires chi? Mage, warrior, barb etc..

    You should be using it on cool down in tw. Mo Zun's Taunt is an extremely useful pvp skill against most classes and it is crucial in tw against cata pullers and mages.

    Oh true, in TW I see how it's very important. However, I'm not in one of the few major TW factions.

    In world PvP, 50 chi rarely would make a difference to me. Perhaps it's because I'm an archer with only average gear, and thus all my fights tend to end quickly one way or the other. I suppose it will matter more when I get closer to endgame and I can survive more than a few hits.
  • RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary
    RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary Posts: 212 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Sigh....so far there has been little to no actual evidence posted that suggests anything is going to be done/change in the future.

    Also everyone seems to be talking about blademasters and other classes using fists and claws to deal massive dps. What about assassins? They are clearly the most overpowered abusers of dps possible in the game, considering daggers are capeable of 5 attacks per second with demon spark (deal significantly more than a fist weapon + full dex build stats into damage + enormous crit rate)...and are probably a major reason why any changes would be made.

    Your full damage bm build will need a minimal 200ish dex to wield their weapon, thus only having 300 strength to use on damage, give or take various mods of gear around 350 at its max.

    The blademaster would be something like....
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ebdb1f9059790e7f
    Average Damage per hit: 7901

    Your full damage assasin build will only need 105 strength to wield all armor and weapons, thus alloting 395+ dexterity into increased damage and crit rate. Daggers are also a damage class above fists and claws. In addition to having more damaging crits. Given gear mods the dex could soar over 450 I would imagine.

    The above means that just comparing builds if the weapons did identical damage, the assassin would deal far more damage than a bm. Now once you factor in the extra weapon damage class...which makes the spark even more insanely powerful (spark damage = 500% additional weapon damage, thus is insanely modified by more powerful/more heavily refined weapons).

    This sin would be like the following...
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=86ed069792bb60e0
    (scary isent it, also if this is showing up as a blademaster for some reason i think the calc is skrewing up or something...but yeh its supposed to be a sin lol..dumb errors, also note the crit damage with the crit damage boost skill is 30% higher than normal)
    Average damage per hit: 9200

    The sin is clearly a far superior dd, AND even tank, because rib strike works on all enemies, thus reducing their melee damage output by 50%, and has bloodpaint. Because of this I would say that sins setup like this are completely broken. The 5 aps blademaster setup is already on the verge of broken....but this is just insane. Both of the above examples are completely unbuffed and only have masteries on...the sin dosent even have demon mastery yet, and its min damage is greater than the bms max damage, with 15% more critrate, and identical attack speed.

    The sin deals 100 - (7901/8200)% more damage than the bm, +15% more if u count crit like that from the critrate. So this sin deals on average 30% more damage than that bm + each crit deals 230% damage compared to the bms 200% damage, so each crit% is 13% more effective, giving the sin around another 2% damage. The spark should be an even greater difference considering the weapon damage on the dagger is greater than on the claws. Even without demon mastery the sin already far out damages the bm. The bm could heavens flame of course, but the sin has its own amp moves, and can generate chi at a rate the bm can only cry at.

    If both of these were to fight each other in theory the assassin would be at a huge advantage, because using rib strike, it would cripple the blademasters attack speed by 50% for easily the entire battle, and the bm has about 40% more suvivability than the sin (but with the bms speed now crippled, the sin deals over 160% more damage (the blademaster attack speed reduces to 2, the sin has 2x attack speed therfore 2x damage, all of this damage dealing 32% more damage)), the sin also has bloodpaint, and both have many stuns etc. As a bm I would say this opponent would be extremely dangerous...and I would not want to run into one.

    The above is the aspect i feel any rumors were trying to fix, which I think any sane person could agree is a reasonable proposition.

    And anyway ive rambled on enough for tonight lol...
  • Sirrobert - Dreamweaver
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,395 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The sin is clearly a far superior dd, AND even tank, because rib strike works on all enemies, thus reducing their melee damage output by 50%, and has bloodpaint. Because of this I would say that sins setup like this are completely broken. The 5 aps blademaster setup is already on the verge of broken....but this is just insane. Both of the above examples are completely unbuffed and only have masteries on...the sin dosent even have demon mastery yet, and its min damage is greater than the bms max damage, with 15% more critrate, and identical attack speed.

    Actually, sins do have 3spark by now
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  • Deathiris - Sanctuary
    Deathiris - Sanctuary Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    The above pwcalc build is the entire reason Ive spent the past few months leveling from 1 again ._.

    Alot harder to hit 5 aps on a sin too ><
    Bm's need -intv tome or nirvana pants
    Even w/ rank iv/vi armors a sin would need both a tome and pants or 1 of those and rank 8 chest...

    BM have the option of using the "cheap" lunar claws while an assassin "cheap" interval weapon is the rank 6 daggers not even in game b:cry or g13 nirvana.

    So do sins potentially have the highest DPS in the game...? yea (hey last I checked we are meant to be a DD class <_<) Is it insanely hard/not really feasible? yea (excluding an extremely powerful credit card =.=) Do I hear a jealous BM? .... maybe ^_^

    All max dps theory aside, does anyone have any new info on the original question about demon spark? All of my characters are demon and punch/stabbity things...
  • AlbireoTwo - Lost City
    AlbireoTwo - Lost City Posts: 2,056 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Oh sure, talk about how the bms and sins and archers will be affected by this. Don't think about us poor barbs.

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=553941
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  • Yulk - Heavens Tear
    Yulk - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,951 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »
    You speak from your vast experience with triple sparks? From your level 34 BM, or maybe your level 5x barb?

    And yes, Mo Zun's Taunt is pretty useless. I still haven't had a single situation come up where I'd bother using it.

    What matters? My level or the facts?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0zOEAhgB7Q
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUJrDMcJNU
    Demon spark is overkill. Wolfgore pretty much sparked his way through the whole entire thing. Again, I kill fast with fists already b:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    VIT > STR > DEX > MAG... GG
    HA > LA > AR... GG

    HA + VIT = win b:bye
  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What matters? My level or the facts?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0zOEAhgB7Q
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUJrDMcJNU
    Demon spark is overkill. Wolfgore pretty much sparked his way through the whole entire thing. Again, I kill fast with fists already b:bye

    Seen chezedude solo his TT's? Yeah, that's sage spark.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Pressa - Heavens Tear
    Pressa - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,287 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Mo Zun's taunt has its uses just because you can't think of any doesn't mean there aren't any. For instance a cat barb can turtle with sparks you mo zun his **** he don't got sparks no more do he? Basically is useless solo unless on a cat barb. If you use it in a group on a impossible mark it makes him so much easier to kill. Whats fun is stealing chi in groups from archers that think they are going to barrage.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Brigid - Harshlands
    Brigid - Harshlands Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What matters? My level or the facts?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0zOEAhgB7Q
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUJrDMcJNU
    Demon spark is overkill. Wolfgore pretty much sparked his way through the whole entire thing. Again, I kill fast with fists already b:bye
    So you're saying that because a heavily cash-shopped, level 100 barbarian with full -interval gear happens to use Demon Spark, it should be nerfed? As Asperitas mentioned, chezedude is Sage. In fact, at maxed out interval, sage spark is actually better. What say you to that?

    Furthermore, you're confusing the relative effects of -interval gear combined with fist/claw weapons combined with demon spark, with the effect of Demon Spark.

    What matters? The actual facts, or what you think are the facts based on watching a few youtube videos and trolling the fora?
    Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Mo Zun's taunt has its uses just because you can't think of any doesn't mean there aren't any. For instance a cat barb can turtle with sparks you mo zun his **** he don't got sparks no more do he? Basically is useless solo unless on a cat barb. If you use it in a group on a impossible mark it makes him so much easier to kill. Whats fun is stealing chi in groups from archers that think they are going to barrage.

    Yeah. I tend to think in terms of solo PvP only though, due to my experience being primarily focused on such. I simply hadn't even considered TW or group PvP beyond single squads.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What matters? My level or the facts?

    What matters is your experience. Since you ask, almost everyone who pays attention to the forums know that at least half the time you're just flat out wrong. You mostly regurgitate what you read and you haven't been playing long enough to really talk about most of what you actually do try to say.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    What matters is your experience. Since you ask, almost everyone who pays attention to the forums know that at least half the time you're just flat out wrong. You mostly regurgitate what you read and you haven't been playing long enough to really talk about most of what you actually do try to say.

    Brutally honest but truthful, i like it b:victory. Oh and i agree.

    Hmmm 'Mo Zun's taunt' seems useless to me since i don't PK or duel a great deal but atleast it looks cool b:chuckle.
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  • Sint - Harshlands
    Sint - Harshlands Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Actually, this would be a bad thing. Because then either swords or veno fox forms would have the highest DPS, and make fists utterly useless. So a lowered ceiling means throw fists away and refine the heck out of your blades.

    lowering cap to 3 aps would make sins the ONLY class still able to permaspark, while nerfing all the other melees.
  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    less demon spark attackspeedbonus
    ->more interval gear needed for 5atk/sec
    ->you need more uberitems
    ->more packs are sold
    ->more $

    i might be wrong with this...b:laugh
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • Sirrobert - Dreamweaver
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,395 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »
    Seen chezedude solo his TT's? Yeah, that's sage spark.

    Doesn't chezedude have like 5 BASE attacks /sec?
    He also killed harpy wraith with 7 people in total lol
    9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm not crazy... the 10th is singing the music of tetris
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    What matters is your experience. Since you ask, almost everyone who pays attention to the forums know that at least half the time you're just flat out wrong. You mostly regurgitate what you read and you haven't been playing long enough to really talk about most of what you actually do try to say.

    give him a break... that guy got a kick **** la pvp bm build. LOL.
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  • PlumDumb - Heavens Tear
    PlumDumb - Heavens Tear Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    only reson i went demon was due to the speed % of attack on spark with its insane power and dd for a bm.Since we cant grab chi like a sage..they give us some dumb **** taunt that has no damn use at all for us ..maybe in pvp..but who in the hell uses that dumb taunt..well perhaps in duel for chi or something.

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