A dispute over endgame Archer helms.

truekossy

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

2% crit (do want) 320 accuracy, 240 eva, and either +26,6% or +40% wep dmg (i've read both on this forum)

for the option to use fists in close range...

against a melee, i'd rather be using metal hits, and wizzies dont usually blink into my range. venos, clerics and psys are painfully slow on their feet, so no danger of them opting to close my range...

while fists are useful for some things, like building chi for spark-metal combo on melees, the only thing i would use them on in pvp is a sin or an archer (and the archer is unlikely to get close, so)

Acc/Evasion don't mean much though fair enough on the damage and crit.

Against a melee, you can remember you'd have permanent tri spark while they're in your face and with 5 attacks/sec, you'd brutalize their charm far more easily than you would with metals.

Especially once they got to higher HP amounts like those 20k+ HP barbs or high vit BMs.

Brigid - Harshlands

Also, bear in mind that Blazing Arrow damage affects fists as well. Thus, you're not only hitting at 5 attacks per second physical, you're doing fire damage as well.

Sint - Harshlands

i'd still use fists mainly to regain chi, because i believe demon sparked metal dmg would be far higher than a flurry of small nicks from blazing fist. i dont think the blazing dmg added for fists would be anything awesome, either. (if you have a 1k max dmg on your fists, 400 dmg from blazing, and str multiplier, you're hitting 600 per hit in pvp, 100 of wich is fire dmg, and that is without counting defense. i think it would be far easier to switch to a crossbow and use metal. again, my humble opinion.

-also, i'd like to remind all of you that permaspark is incredibly hard to get before lvl 99. this said, perhaps i'll reconsider 18 lvls from now.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

i'd still use fists mainly to regain chi, because i believe demon sparked metal dmg would be far higher than a flurry of small nicks from blazing fist. i dont think the blazing dmg added for fists would be anything awesome, either. (if you have a 1k max dmg on your fists, 400 dmg from blazing, and str multiplier, you're hitting 600 per hit in pvp, 100 of wich is fire dmg, and that is without counting defense. i think it would be far easier to switch to a crossbow and use metal. again, my humble opinion.

-also, i'd like to remind all of you that permaspark is incredibly hard to get before lvl 99. this said, perhaps i'll reconsider 18 lvls from now.

Poison pots, Wizzie buff also can help out to a degree as well. Really depends on the situation, and what all buffs you are running with. Shoot the venos with bow before they can purge if possible of course

Neodaystar - Sanctuary

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

-also, i'd like to remind all of you that permaspark is incredibly hard to get before lvl 99. this said, perhaps i'll reconsider 18 lvls from now.

True, but you can have the potential to triple spark at least 3-4 times in a row if you want by using spark eruption and chi pots if you have close to the needed attack speed to reach perma spark.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Neodaystar - Sanctuary wrote: »

What's wrong with the option of being able to wear a good set of fist/claws as an eg archer? You are only transferring as much points as needed to equip the set of fists/claws, so it won't hurt your bow damage by much. The whole purpose for wearing fists/claws is to achieve the highest dps possible - even out damage what a bow can do, and the only way to do so is to reach an attack rate of 5/sec to be able to perma spark (which many people neglect to have - interval gears and thinks they can dish out godly damage with just fists alone). Yes, it's stupid for an archer to use fists to grind mobs, because it's more efficient to kill with a bow for that scenario - except to gain chi. However, for bosses you can shave off more time since you will be doing more dps with the fists/claws.

Your forgetting that when you triple spark, you can remove debuffs or even make use of the few seconds of invincibility to avoid attacks. An archer with fists have solo'ed TT3-2 before and there are clips some where on the forum I believe, so your point of how melee weapons are effectively useless on bosses with short range movement debuffs are dis proven.

I don't have to proper number of interval gears to reach 5 attacks/sec to perma spark and bring out the true potential of fist/claws so I don't use fists as my main weapon for serious pk. But from what I have experimented - about 3 attacks per sec with what i have on - I can get past a buffed barb charm faster with fists than when I tried my CV bow on him again in pk mode. Melee enemies expect an archer to kite and avoid close range combat, so you can use this as an element of surprise to get their hp close to charm tick, then switch to fists, spark and let them have it all when they get close.

If in PVP 1 vs 1, what if your opponent is a caster cleric/wiz and hops in front of you to take an advantage of your close range damage reduction. Sure, you can cast wings of grace or use winged shell, then maybe stun or land a wing span, but then what? Are you going to waste a few precious seconds to put some distance between you and the opponent as he/she gets ready to one shot you as you run away? You're better off triple spark if you can to avoid the next attack and switch to fist then let them have it.

I don't think the poster was comparing how good a fist archer is as to a sin (melee light armor) but was only offering a suggestion to improve the game play of eg archers.

There is nothing wrong with having the option to use lunar fist/claw... just like there is nothing wrong with a heavy/robe armor archer. its all preference of the player. I am saying that there is no point of having one since the damage you do will pale in comparsion to that of a bm using same weapon. Your 5 atk/s is a good arguement for using claws... but that require ideal gear and only a handful will ever archieve it anyways. Even your mention of fist archer soloing 3-2 is flawed... considering 99.9% of end game archers will NEVER be able to do that. Your talking about the exception that proves the rule. Its great and all to drool that one who has godly gear... but be realistic here... the other 99 of us will only see our damage nerfed by using claws.

And when is the last time a wiz distance shink up to you? I can tell you what happen to the last wizard that did that to me. He ended up on the ground after 3 wing attacks. Face it... only a **** wizard/cleric will try to take advantage of the half damage. All the other half decent ones will just nuke you from a distance. And the melees that do get close, they are a lot better are ultizing your fist then you are. Just cause you can triple spark... doesn't mean they can't... and their triple spark will hurt LOT more.

truekossy

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And when is the last time a wiz distance shink up to you? I can tell you what happen to the last wizard that did that to me. He ended up on the ground after 3 wing attacks. Face it... only a **** wizard/cleric will try to take advantage of the half damage. All the other half decent ones will just nuke you from a distance.

That wiz must've had some pretty awful defense, then. Level 11 stone barrier should've been enough to make your wing attacks tickle, assuming they don' just seal you, then blink in your face and nuke.

Also, plume shell + guardian light. GL breaking the cleric's MP charm using the wing skills compared to being able to nuke the shell with fists.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

truekossy wrote: »

That wiz must've had some pretty awful defense, then. Level 11 stone barrier should've been enough to make your wing attacks tickle, assuming they don' just seal you, then blink in your face and nuke.

Also, plume shell + guardian light. GL breaking the cleric's MP charm using the wing skills compared to being able to nuke the shell with fists.

Did you even get to the 4th sentence? I clearly state that only a **** wiz/cleric will even try anything like that... i guess to ensure their survival. Stone barrier and plume shell both work for any physcial attack regardless of distance. They can easily nuke you from afar and still get the kill... no need to go into melee range. Its troublesome to break plume shell even with ranged archer attacks... so there is no way it can be broken with wing... the same goes for fists. So there is no point of switching from 1 **** attack only to replace it with something equally on the **** scale. The arch will have better luck with metal attacks.

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

only if they have low enough hp for you to kill them with the metal attacks. fists can drain their mp in a few seconds and most clerics don't use MP charms.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Chezedude - Dreamweaver wrote: »

only if they have low enough hp for you to kill them with the metal attacks. fists can drain their mp in a few seconds and most clerics don't use MP charms.

clerics have like what... upwards of 6k+ mp... lvl 11 plume shell takes dmg 1:1... a single pot gives 6k mp per 5 seconds... you still got probably around 6k cleric buffed hp and an hp charm on top of that. and your telling me that any run of the mill archer (with his 6-7k hp) can overcome all of that with fists before getting sleept and temperested? metal attacks isn't much better... but it is still a better alternative then plowing through plume shell.

Quilue - Sanctuary

the thing with fist against casters is that you attack so fast you have a pretty good chance to interrupt their channeling with the melee attacks. no caster in their right mind wouldn't move against a fist wielding bm, archer, or anything. if you holy path at a cleric with anti stun on and fists equipped, they have to move. it's not even a question of whether your fists will penetrate their plume barrier, people in their right minds are just not going to take it. even if they can survive with plume barrier on, you would have gathered enough chi to cast another anti stun after your first one runs out.

Quilue - Sanctuary

i'm talking about fists interrupting channeling. clerics can make physical attacks do double digits for a period of time, it's just that people would rather not tank fists if they can move

Vivetus - Sanctuary

i made the fist build, only sacrificing 4 dex.... alot of you are wrong

4 dex is only like 40dmg

and with the build i made i can hit 10k per attack

at 5att/s thats 50k pve wise IN ONE SECOND

divide it by 4 and its roughly 12k per second... thats quite deadly in my opinion... you can give me **** about it will only bounce off a barb, but youll be hitting so fast youll be able to take him down easy especially with the proper genie


NOT going to post that build ish a secwet>.>

Kasumi - Dreamweaver

Vivetus - Sanctuary wrote: »

i made the fist build, only sacrificing 4 dex.... alot of you are wrong

4 dex is only like 40dmg

and with the build i made i can hit 10k per attack

at 5att/s thats 50k pve wise IN ONE SECOND

divide it by 4 and its roughly 12k per second... thats quite deadly in my opinion... you can give me **** about it will only bounce off a barb, but youll be hitting so fast youll be able to take him down easy especially with the proper genie


NOT going to post that build ish a secwet>.>

so your level 84 archer hit 5/sec or what

Msmunholy - Lost City

i just restated to use the warsong of earth and am very happy with it, i think its worth the trade off, but i also have a tome and cape that add up to 16+str so its a bit easier for me