A dispute over endgame Archer helms.

Motoko - Raging Tide

So, I continually make fun of a factionmate of mine for wearing an arcane hat. My argument is... wtf are you going to do with + mana, his is, I need every point in dex!!! no str.

His helm: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/20267

My suggestions: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/20457

or

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/20256

Which allows him to also use: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/16104

I'm no expert on Archer's but I definitely would not go with the 1st helm. What is the concensus here?

YoshiBomb - Archosaur

using lower level hp helms is better, the str requirement for that helmet will lower teh dex of the archer. imo and the opinion of most good archers is that you need to kill as fast as possible and having mroe str to wear a helm at a level your not suppose to will lower your attack. just go with a lower level hp help and youll be ok. the difference wont show too much unless your refining that thing alot.

also, mp helm is not useful

YoshiBomb - Archosaur

nevermind. i just saw his helm on that link. its pretty damn nice.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

I see a lot of archers lately with that warsoul crit helm. The str req is somehwere around 118 str (too lazy to look now). I'm 82 already have 106 str with gear bonuses... I doubt wearing that helm at end game will be any prob.

Though I'm most likely gona go with the ani pack lunar helm just cause i already have it.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

How does Forest's Wisdom allow him to wear Deicide?

Quilue - Sanctuary

the strength required for it happens to let you wield Deicide.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Only thing I can think of is they plan on high end game refinement, letting the G14 helm prolly have the same health as the warsoul due to refine lvl difference. Still would rather have the extra crit, but it's not as dry cut when refinement is taken into account might be there thought process.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Well we do have an end game helm actually designed for archers now:

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/25690

Kristoph - Lost City

^that. Refines like a heavy helmet, gives a ridiculous amount of HP.

I_Snipe - Lost City

his helm is good soley for the bonus and refines. For him, Forest's Wisdom is not advised as he is trying to get as much dex as possible.

I have found a nice endgame helm for myself [that's not expensive as event helms]
Gold Lvl 85 Frost Arcane Helm
Shining Snow Helm
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/16009

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

hm I was considering getting that helm for the 5 atk lvl set bonus, but I think it would lower my hp by a lot

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

now that lunar is easily farmable, theres also the lunar gold hat if you wanna have a unique, and lovely archer designed hat. i personally use frost gold which is > aqua (provide you get higher than +5 refines)

that nirvana hat probably will only be seen by super cash shoppers >.>, note theonly people with nirvana gear on sanc are noobs who fail at pw, but spend more than a college tuition on the game.

MaiaElais - Lost City

Nirvana helm > Warsoul helm > Gold Frost helm > Aqua helm

Ences Scar = fail.

Forest Wisdom = fail.

The trick is balancing a helm that gives decent hp without sacrificing too much dex. +10 Nirvana helm refines to only 60 more hp than +10 warsoul helm but the stats on N helm are better.

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

I_Snipe - Lost City wrote: »

his helm is good soley for the bonus and refines. For him, Forest's Wisdom is not advised as he is trying to get as much dex as possible.

I have found a nice endgame helm for myself [that's not expensive as event helms]
Gold Lvl 85 Frost Arcane Helm
Shining Snow Helm
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/16009

MaiaElais - Lost City wrote: »

Nirvana helm > Warsoul helm > Gold Frost helm > Aqua helm

Ences Scar = fail.

Forest Wisdom = fail.

The trick is balancing a helm that gives decent hp without sacrificing too much dex. +10 Nirvana helm refines to only 60 more hp than +10 warsoul helm but the stats on N helm are better.

forest wisdom gives about 800 more hp at +10 where as nirvana helm only gives 200 more defense. Of course for a pure dex archer nirvana helm is the best since thats the highest grade helm they can wear, but for anyone using deicide or something they already have enoguh str to wear the event helm which is also much cheaper.

Admante - Dreamweaver

MaiaElais - Lost City wrote: »

Nirvana helm > Warsoul helm > Gold Frost helm > Aqua helm

Ences Scar = fail.

Forest Wisdom = fail.

The trick is balancing a helm that gives decent hp without sacrificing too much dex. +10 Nirvana helm refines to only 60 more hp than +10 warsoul helm but the stats on N helm are better.

Every archer should plan for fists/claws in their endgame build because they're just so good. The cape with -.05, love up and down, lionheart orns, etc, are all to make fists work better. Good fists/claws = Deicides, which coincidentally comes with more -interval. It makes 146 str so worth it.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

Admante - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Every archer should plan for fists/claws in their endgame build because they're just so good. The cape with -.05, love up and down, lionheart orns, etc, are all to make fists work better. Good fists/claws = Deicides, which coincidentally comes with more -interval. It makes 146 str so worth it.

use it while still posssible b:laugh

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

I think sage barbs are jealous :O

Ursa - Dreamweaver

lol, i think every other class is...:)

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

omg ursa is stalking me

Ursa - Dreamweaver

not yet...but not a bad idea

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Admante - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Every archer should plan for fists/claws in their endgame build because they're just so good. The cape with -.05, love up and down, lionheart orns, etc, are all to make fists work better. Good fists/claws = Deicides, which coincidentally comes with more -interval. It makes 146 str so worth it.

there is really no point outside of a very few limited pve sernios where a fist/claw will come in handly. pvp wise... the only people that are going to get in to melee range are heavies... and are you seriously going to switch to a claw and poke at him? pve mob wise... i really can't think of any mob that'll justify a melee weapon. and pve boss wise... half of the tt bosses has some sort of short range movement debuffs so melees are effectly useless... so your left with limited uses in niv. but if you must play a melee light armor... a sin is a much better bet then an arch.

Neodaystar - Sanctuary

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

there is really no point outside of a very few limited pve sernios where a fist/claw will come in handly. pvp wise... the only people that are going to get in to melee range are heavies... and are you seriously going to switch to a claw and poke at him? pve mob wise... i really can't think of any mob that'll justify a melee weapon. and pve boss wise... half of the tt bosses has some sort of short range movement debuffs so melees are effectly useless... so your left with limited uses in niv. but if you must play a melee light armor... a sin is a much better bet then an arch.

What's wrong with the option of being able to wear a good set of fist/claws as an eg archer? You are only transferring as much points as needed to equip the set of fists/claws, so it won't hurt your bow damage by much. The whole purpose for wearing fists/claws is to achieve the highest dps possible - even out damage what a bow can do, and the only way to do so is to reach an attack rate of 5/sec to be able to perma spark (which many people neglect to have - interval gears and thinks they can dish out godly damage with just fists alone). Yes, it's stupid for an archer to use fists to grind mobs, because it's more efficient to kill with a bow for that scenario - except to gain chi. However, for bosses you can shave off more time since you will be doing more dps with the fists/claws.

Your forgetting that when you triple spark, you can remove debuffs or even make use of the few seconds of invincibility to avoid attacks. An archer with fists have solo'ed TT3-2 before and there are clips some where on the forum I believe, so your point of how melee weapons are effectively useless on bosses with short range movement debuffs are dis proven.

I don't have to proper number of interval gears to reach 5 attacks/sec to perma spark and bring out the true potential of fist/claws so I don't use fists as my main weapon for serious pk. But from what I have experimented - about 3 attacks per sec with what i have on - I can get past a buffed barb charm faster with fists than when I tried my CV bow on him again in pk mode. Melee enemies expect an archer to kite and avoid close range combat, so you can use this as an element of surprise to get their hp close to charm tick, then switch to fists, spark and let them have it all when they get close.

If in PVP 1 vs 1, what if your opponent is a caster cleric/wiz and hops in front of you to take an advantage of your close range damage reduction. Sure, you can cast wings of grace or use winged shell, then maybe stun or land a wing span, but then what? Are you going to waste a few precious seconds to put some distance between you and the opponent as he/she gets ready to one shot you as you run away? You're better off triple spark if you can to avoid the next attack and switch to fist then let them have it.

I don't think the poster was comparing how good a fist archer is as to a sin (melee light armor) but was only offering a suggestion to improve the game play of eg archers.

SneakyStalk - Harshlands

just reroll a BM and stop QQin lawl. claws/fists for archer are for fun and certain other uses. personally I use dark flash when I dont wanna grab aggro off herc or something.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

Chezedude - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think sage barbs are jealous :O

could be fun with 5 aspd, but however why i say is cos of the might-be-coming patch for class specific claw/fist XD.

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

Heartstone - Dreamweaver wrote: »

could be fun with 5 aspd, but however why i say is cos of the might-be-coming patch for class specific claw/fist XD.

it's ok fake rumors don't worry me.

and to person above, if you think it's not useful in pvp, try killing a barb with bow lol o.O

I_Snipe - Lost City

Fists/Claws are good to build chi and DD while not taking aggro from one. And as someone stated, to attack someone within melee range.

I only have Str required to wear LA, and don't plan to restat for fists.
Only because I have a 3* Instant Strike Fist with PAtk +52, Vit +7, and Int -0.05. Combine that with the highly sought after tome, HH90 Gold bracers, and a Rank 4 chest and I reach an Atk/s of 2.22 [2.83 w/ Demon Spark].

Unfortunately, I can't reach a faster speed until HH99 HA ornaments, HH99 LA, and can't afford a Lunar Cape.

Neodaystar - Sanctuary

Cyanea - Lost City wrote: »

If you have the -interval gear to make good use of claws this might be a good move.

However, you are losing 2% critical hit and about about a third of your weapon damage from every bow attack (or you are losing some health if you were a hybrid archer, but better helmets can get some of that back).

Personally, I would not bother restatting for claws if I did not have a lot of -interval gear.

I don't think losing 2% crit (the 40 dex points) would justify a total of 33.3% of your weapon damage from a bow attack.

Sint - Harshlands

while claw/fist is as good weapon on an archer, i wouldnt restat fort it.

also, i believe it is possible, at lvl 100, with a lot of csing, to actually weild deicide, permaspark, and restat no dex.

tt99 bracers and boots, -.1 for bracers -.05 for both
tt99 lionheart orns -.05 for both
deicide: -.1
rank 8 plate, -.1 (archers only, maybe sins)
nirvana pants, -.05

fists have an interval of about .7 amirite?

no need to get lunar cape. (start saving up tokens for rank 8, though)

-dont know if shadow ashura + normal ashura or both shadow gives you the - interval bonus.

-if you have the event str tome, you should be able to switch it with your usual tome to equip deicide.

-if you get lunar cape with this, you can permaspark heaven.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Neodaystar - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think losing 2% crit (the 40 dex points) would justify a total of 33.3% of your weapon damage from a bow attack.

Yeah, they aren't even close. Only a .26 reduction in damage multiple, meaning between 5 - 8% of unsparked phys attk damage of a normal shot. Not really a killer to lose 40 dex in the end.

Sint - Harshlands

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah, they aren't even close. Only a .26 reduction in damage multiple, meaning between 5 - 8% of unsparked phys attk damage of a normal shot. Not really a killer to lose 40 dex in the end.

2% crit (do want) 320 accuracy, 240 eva, and either +26,6% or +40% wep dmg (i've read both on this forum)

for the option to use fists in close range...

against a melee, i'd rather be using metal hits, and wizzies dont usually blink into my range. venos, clerics and psys are painfully slow on their feet, so no danger of them opting to close my range...

while fists are useful for some things, like building chi for spark-metal combo on melees, the only thing i would use them on in pvp is a sin or an archer (and the archer is unlikely to get close, so)

Telarith - Sanctuary

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

2% crit (do want) 320 accuracy, 240 eva, and either +26,6% or +40% wep dmg (i've read both on this forum)

for the option to use fists in close range...

against a melee, i'd rather be using metal hits, and wizzies dont usually blink into my range. venos, clerics and psys are painfully slow on their feet, so no danger of them opting to close my range...

while fists are useful for some things, like building chi for spark-metal combo on melees, the only thing i would use them on in pvp is a sin or an archer (and the archer is unlikely to get close, so)

Whoever said .4 likely got their formulas confused. Magic damage is calculated so every point = .01 multiple, where 40 mag would be .4 multiple. Physical damage is 2/3 divided by 100. So 40/150 = .2666