who said you need cleric?

Airyll - Dreamweaver

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

How would you handle the mass amounts of poison as those are all wood mobs in FB69 Wraith Gate?btw Venos have genies as well.

You're starting to stray from the point. I do suggest you stop while you're ahead.

Venos can't use alpha male because that would then mean they take aggro from their Herc. From a tanking perspective, while Hercs are great pet tanks, barbarians are better. They DO run faster, they CAN spam aggro skills more, and they CAN use genie skills to assist in keeping aggro.

Poison in Wraithgate isn't hard to deal with. Venos with high m.def can deal with poison easily assuming they even take aggro long enough to suffer from it, and I have never had any pet die from a DoT like poison or bleed. I intend to start soloing my Pyro BHs on my 72 veno if I ever get bored enough to do so, and am working on building a genie on my archer that can make use of earthquake and lightning chaser, so that in later levels on my venomancer I can attempt to practise dealing with Polearm.

We aren't saying venomancers can't tank, you need to realise that. What we are saying is that a barbarian is a better tank. They will hold aggro better and take aggro back faster without dispute provided they know what they are doing. No matter how hard you try you aren't going to be able to argue these facts because that's exactly what they are: facts.

truekossy

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

How would you handle the mass amounts of poison as those are all wood mobs in FB69 Wraith Gate?btw Venos have genies as well.

Well there's many, many ways.

1: Pull the monsters and let the pet tank he damage.
2: Let the pet tank most of the damage but, seeing as you'd most likely be arcane or LA as a veno, tank the magical hits with ease since you'd have high m.def.
3: If the poison stack is getting hard on you, use metab boost.
4: If that still isn't enough, use soul transfusion.
5: If you're feeling really desperate, use a vac pot.
6: If you just don't wanna deal with the poison, use Nullify Poison from your genie.



And yes, venos have genies as well... but using a genie skill to take aggro (IE: Alpha Male) is NOT going to give it to the pet. It's going to put the aggro on the veno. Likewise, something like holy path won't help the pet catch a boss that it's lost aggro on because it would only affect the veno. The only way genie skills benefit your pet is if they debuff a monster, allowing your pet to deal more damage/take less damage from the mob, or they boost the veno's m.atk/channeling/increase chi which would allow you to have a stronger heal or a faster heal momentarily including sparked heals.



Edit: Beaten to the punch by Airyl. Well written!

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're starting to stray from the point. I do suggest you stop while you're ahead.

Venos can't use alpha male because that would then mean they take aggro from their Herc. From a tanking perspective, while Hercs are great pet tanks, barbarians are better. They DO run faster, they CAN spam aggro skills more, and they CAN use genie skills to assist in keeping aggro.

Poison in Wraithgate isn't hard to deal with. Venos with high m.def can deal with poison easily assuming they even take aggro long enough to suffer from it, and I have never had any pet die from a DoT like poison or bleed. I intend to start soloing my Pyro BHs on my 72 veno if I ever get bored enough to do so, and am working on building a genie on my archer that can make use of earthquake and lightning chaser, so that in later levels on my venomancer I can attempt to practise dealing with Polearm.

We aren't saying venomancers can't tank, you need to realise that. What we are saying is that a barbarian is a better tank. They will hold aggro better and take aggro back faster without dispute provided they know what they are doing. No matter how hard you try you aren't going to be able to argue these facts because that's exactly what they are: facts.

OK.I wont argue on the last paragraph but on paragraph 2 I will.I very much doubt that you can keep the amount of poison off of you as good as purify can.Clerics would be far better at soloing this then a Venos can and we don't need to use our genie skills.

truekossy

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

OK.I wont ague on the last paragraph but on paragraph 2 I will.I very much doubt that you can keep the amount of poison off of you as good as purify can.Clerics would be far better at soloing this then a Venos can and we don't need to use our genie skills.

Wait first we go from a barb's ability to tank compared to a herc, to a cleric's ability compared to a veno? And you completely neglected that it's poison against... an arcane user. Veno, cleric, wiz, or psy, you'd have enough magic defense that unless you let the monster live for an incredibly long time you would barely notice the poison. Also, see the methods I listed above for dealing with it as well as the fact that a sage veno could simply use sprint for a self-purify every minute.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

truekossy wrote: »

Wait first we go from a barb's ability to tank compared to a herc, to a cleric's ability compared to a veno? And you completely neglected that it's poison against... an arcane user. Veno, cleric, wiz, or psy, you'd have enough magic defense that unless you let the monster live for an incredibly long time you would barely notice the poison. Also, see the methods I listed above for dealing with it as well as the fact that a sage veno could simply use sprint for a self-purify every minute.

Those are nice points but I am not not talking sage Veno here and no use of Genie skills.You want to talk sage think of what a sage Cleric can do or even a demon cleric.Demon purify requires no chi.

truekossy

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

Those are nice points but I am not not talking sage Veno here and no use of Genie skills.You want to talk sage think of what a sage Cleric can do or even a demon cleric.Demon purify requires no chi.

And you're still missing the point. The poison that you asked about surviving literally means nothing to an arcane as, unless you stand there and let the damage stack up to the point where it can severely hurt you instead of killing the monster, you'll have more than enough mag resist to be able to shrug off the poison.

Also,

truekossy wrote: »

Well there's many, many ways.

1: Pull the monsters and let the pet tank he damage.
2: Let the pet tank most of the damage but, seeing as you'd most likely be arcane or LA as a veno, tank the magical hits with ease since you'd have high m.def.
3: If the poison stack is getting hard on you, use metab boost.
4: If that still isn't enough, use soul transfusion.
5: If you're feeling really desperate, use a vac pot.
6: If you just don't wanna deal with the poison, use Nullify Poison from your genie.

The first five allow you to take little to no damage and cover easy ways to recover if the poison somehow manages to become a problem. The last one allows you to negate the poison completely and not even have to worry about taking any damage in the first place.


So, once again, where do the capabilities of a cleric compared to a veno with a herc come into play here when we were initially discussing how suitable a herc for a tank is compared to a barbrian based on how well the two can hold aggro as well as their speed and versatility?

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

It does when the poison starts to hit you and it will I very much doubt you can avoid all the wood mobs in there.It doesn't matter about being arcane or not it is the poison that is draining you health that I am talking about.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

At this point, I'm stepping out the argument. MystiMonk isn't even sticking to the argument that s/he started and is now dodging around points and examples to try.

It went from defending a veno and pet's tanking capabilities in comparison to a barbarian

To agreeing the barbarian is the better tank, no matter how good a veno tank is

To suddenly saying a veno won't be able to solo 69 because of the poison and a cleric is better.

This is no longer even a discussion, this is one person hoping from one thing to another, trying to somehow win an argument related to one of these topics. MystiMonk, may I suggest in future that you don't keep skipping topics until you suddenly find an argument you can win. You came up with some good points in the veno's defence, but now you are in fact denying a veno's ability to tank.

Learn to argue coherently in the future. You can't defend a veno and say they can tank and solo well at one point, and then say they can't the next. It doesn't work.

-edit-

Also, if you're an arcane user, you would have to leave one of the mobs that casts poison at long range alive an incredibly long time for it to seriously do damage. You're acting as if the poison is taking over 500 every time, when for most arcane venos, poison damage from 69 mobs starts off in the low double figures.

Nullify poison also works, as has been said before.

Your argument here just plain sucks this time, you're not making any good points. Accept defeat gracefully.

truekossy

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

It does when the poison starts to hit you and it will I very much doubt you can avoid all the wood mobs in there.It doesn't matter about being arcane or not it is the poison that is draining you health that I am talking about.

Except that... it doesn't. Being an arcane class and wearing full robes reduces the damage to the point where you don't really have to worry about it unless you're toying with the monsters so they can survive long enough to get a poison stack of decent strength on you. It does have to do with being arcane or not. Poison is a wood element damage over time attack. Arcane armor provides high resistance to elemental attacks. You do the math.

On top of that, you're assuming that the veno doesn't just, say, oh I don't know.... let their pet tank the monsters? If we're assuming a herc, which we were, then it would be more than capable of holding its own against the damage and if you somehow manage to have a herc die to a DoT then something is horribly wrong.

Plus, even assuming the veno does take all the damage instead of using their pet for some reason, you've still ignored working methods I've provided. You have metab boost. At level 70 when you first start getting sent into BH69, it can be up to level 9. One level later, you can max it and then recover 50% of your HP in one go if the poison ever drops you that low. If that's not enough, you also have soul transfusion to switch your HP and MP %s which means if your HP is somehow below half from the poison while your MP is above it, problem solved instantly.

As if that weren't enough, you can even use a soulcleanse orb to stop the poison instantly as it removes all debuffs and poison, being damage over time, is considered a debuff.

If that's not good enough for you, there's STILL the genie skill nullify poison, which you could use to immediately prevent wood based damage like... poison.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

truekossy wrote: »

Except that... it doesn't. Being an arcane class and wearing full robes reduces the damage to the point where you don't really have to worry about it unless you're toying with the monsters so they can survive long enough to get a poison stack of decent strength on you. It does have to do with being arcane or not. Poison is a wood element damage over time attack. Arcane armor provides high resistance to elemental attacks. You do the math.

I am not talking damage I am talking poison which will drain your health.This doesn't include genie skills and no apothecary.I am talking about removing poison which can be stacked go and stand around poison mob without attacking.You can not remove poison with the skills that are on your bar.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

I am not talking damage I am talking poison which will drain your health.This doesn't include genie skills and no apothecary.I am talking about removing poison which can be stacked go and stand around poison mob without attacking.You can not remove poison with the skills that are on your bar.

But the genie skill Nullify Poison can.

Please, for your own health, just shut up now. You don't even understand what this guy is saying, and just FYI, everything s/he says is absolutely true.

THE STACKING KIND OF POISON that you are talking about, just so you understand we are talking about the same kind of poison damage here is classed as a damage over time debuff. It can be removed with the genie skill Nullify Poison. Classes with high magic defence such as a Venomancer will be less affected by this kind of poison because they have a high magic defence. This means that a poison mobs that casts the stacking kind of poison would have to be alive for a great deal of time in order for the stacked poison damage to hurt.

If you can't understand what this poor guy has been trying to say to you now, please just go back to school, or learn how to play the game, or put a bullet in your head, or ANYTHING more productive then sitting here arguing a point you are totally and completely wrong about.

Yaxana - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

We aren't saying venomancers can't tank, you need to realise that. What we are saying is that a barbarian is a better tank. They will hold aggro better and take aggro back faster without dispute provided they know what they are doing. No matter how hard you try you aren't going to be able to argue these facts because that's exactly what they are: facts.

Agreed, barbs are better tanks than hercs because that is their main role, they tank. My herc often loses aggro if the squad goes all out. As a matter of fact, I steal aggro from my herc too often. Bottom line, people need to learn that herc can't hold aggro as well as they think.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But the genie skill Nullify Poison can.

Please, for your own health, just shut up now. You don't even understand what this guy is saying, and just FYI, everything s/he says is absolutely true.

THE STACKING KIND OF POISON that you are talking about, just so you understand we are talking about the same kind of poison damage here is classed as a damage over time debuff. It can be removed with the genie skill Nullify Poison. Classes with high magic defence such as a Venomancer will be less affected by this kind of poison because they have a high magic defence. This means that a poison mobs that casts the stacking kind of poison would have to be alive for a great deal of time in order for the stacked poison damage to hurt.

If you can't understand what this poor guy has been trying to say to you now, please just go back to school, or learn how to play the game, or put a bullet in your head, or ANYTHING more productive then sitting here arguing a point you are totally and completely wrong about.

I do understand but clerics are far better and deal with wood mobs and we are the only class with built in skill to remove poison called purify.Clerics can remove the debuff with purify.I don't see Venos going around AoEing wood mobs unlike what a Cleric can do.

The two of you are saying that Clerics can't do this as good as Veno fighting wood mobs.

axt57

Btw, sage summer sprint acts like a purify for a veno.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

I do understand but clerics are far better and deal with wood mobs and we are the only class with built in skill to remove poison called purify.Clerics can remove the debuff with purify.I don't see Venos going around AoEing wood mobs unlike what a Cleric can do.

The two of you are saying that Clerics can't do this as good as Veno fighting wood mobs.

Uh... what?

We never said that. Ever. Seriously, you go try and find a quote where we say "Venos can purify better than a cleric." or "Venos can fight mobs that stack poison better than a cleric."

Go find me those quotes and then tell me I said that.

At this point you're putting words in out mouth.

YOU were the first person to even bring clerics up in this discussion, claiming that a veno couldn't solo FB69 because of all the poison stack.

We just told you venos can solo FB69.

You argued with us.

Please get your facts straight before you accuse somebody of saying something. You look kind of stupid if that was never said. You look even more stupid when it was you who started the argument, which had no relevance to the original discussion anyway.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Uh... what?

We never said that. Ever. Seriously, you go try and find a quote where we say "Venos can purify better than a cleric." or "Venos can fight mobs that stack poison better than a cleric."

That is what it sounds like you are saying maybe not directly.I am saying you would have hard time with it say being around lvl 70 with low hps.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

That is what it sounds like you are saying maybe not directly.I am saying you would have hard time with it say being around lvl 70 with low hps.

No, I wouldn't.

And I didn't.

I'm a full arcane, level 72 Venomancer with a Hercules at level 71. I know Soul Transfusion, Metabolic Boost is at level 4 [not the most necessary of my skills right now] and Nature's Grace is... I can't remember. Maybe level 5 or something.

The poison mobs in 69 are an absolute cakewalk. I don't take aggro from them in the first place because the Herc easily deals with three or four of those mobs at a time. If I happen to take aggro of one, it can stack poison on me twice, maybe three times before the Herc grabs aggro of it. The damage per poison DoT after that is never over 200. I have about 2.1k HP unbuffed. The poison stack? If I was wearing a charm it wouldn't even tick it before the debuff wore off.

If you don't know what you're talking about you shouldn't talk at all. Those mobs are EASY for a Venomancer that knows what they're doing to deal with. Metabolic Boost is all I need if I happen to get the tiniest poison stack. I don't even get into situations dire enough to need Soul Trans.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

I wonder though have you ever tried taking on full wood mob not in FB69 but say near Sanctuary or even better close to 1K Streams.Metabolic Boost has long cool down if you need it again.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wonder though have you ever tried taking on full wood mob not in FB69 but say near Sanctuary or even better close to 1K Streams.Metabolic Boost has long cool down if you need it again.

I wonder if you know I go out of my way to get Crusade Orders for the very same Orchid Petalis that you're talking about on my Venomancer...

Guess not.

Please just leave this topic. Right now. You are doing yourself no favours and are starting to look like an idiot.

Bottom line:

Argument one: The barbarian is the better tank in comparison to a Hercules or any other veno pet.

Argument two: Venos can solo FB69 just fine. They can also grind on wood mobs that stack poison just fine.
My veno has been doing so for the past god damn week. I'd invite you to come and watch just to prove how blatantly stupid and **** poor your arguments are but you aren't even on the same server.

axt57

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Argument one: The barbarian is the better tank in comparison to a Hercules or any other veno pet.

It depends.

A herc is a much better tank for some TT bosses.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

axt57 wrote: »

It depends.

A herc is a much better tank for some TT bosses.

Not quite what was meant. Go back and read the earlier argument, the basis of which was: a Herc cannot spam aggro as fast as a barbarian can, nor can it keep aggro as well as a barbarian can. This discussion was sparked after a comment that a lot of newer players these days think Hercs can spam Bash like a barb can spam FR, and so go all out and steal assuming the Herc's going to take aggro back right away. The case couldn't be more different.

In the context the discussion was in: yes, a barb is better. We weren't looking at mobs or bosses or why you'd have a Herc tank, but the actual reasons a barbarian made a better tank as far as aggro control was concerned.

Santacruz - Heavens Tear

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

a Herc cannot spam aggro as fast as a barbarian can, nor can it keep aggro as well as a barbarian can

want a bet?

my golem can keep agro on the bosses in FF against a lvl 101 archer and a golem does not even have reflect like a herc, and that archer is not fail lol, he hurts like hell

in TT with a herc that has reflect it will have no problem keeping agro against DD'ers, ive seen it through and through

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Santacruz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

want a bet?

my golem can keep agro on the bosses in FF against a lvl 101 archer and a golem does not even have reflect like a herc, and that archer is not fail lol, he hurts like hell

in TT with a herc that has reflect it will have no problem keeping agro against DD'ers, ive seen it through and through

Nope, don't want to bet, and don't need to.

As I have already stated in this thread, pet tanks are incredibly good tanks.

But when it comes to aggro control a barbarian will always have the upper hand. Bash, the best aggro skill you can give your pet, has an eight second cooldown if the statistics posted earlier are right. Flesh Ream only has a three second cooldown.

While venomancers can utilise genies, they cannot utilise any genie skill to help with aggro control because it is their pet tanking. The barbarian has a huge advantage by this point because not only can s/he spam Flesh Ream faster than a pet spams Bash provided they have enough chi, but they can also use skills like Alpha Male.

It's not a dispute, it's fact, barbarians have the upper hand with aggro and are generally better at keeping it.

Nowhere, however, did I say that pet tanks were poor at keeping aggro, nor that they could not tank. Only that a barbarian has better chances at getting, and keeping, aggression.

axt57

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Herc cannot spam aggro as fast as a barbarian can, nor can it keep aggro as well as a barbarian can.

My post still stands; I've seen top end wizards rip agro off barbs in TT. They have a tougher time doing that when herc is tanking due to the damage reduction bug and reflect. Hell, the reflect of 2-3 wurlord can reach 7k alone.

I won't deny that barbs have the better agro control overall, thats obvious - but I won't agree that a barb can hold agro better than herc in every situation.

Santacruz - Heavens Tear

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But when it comes to aggro control a barbarian will always have the upper hand. Bash, the best aggro skill you can give your pet, has an eight second cooldown if the statistics posted earlier are right. Flesh Ream only has a three second cooldown.

true but

a pet can have up to 4 skills, each skill creates a certain amount of agro, even skills such as threaten stack some agro.

i have bash, roar, sandstorm and threaten on my golem, 1 skill alone as you said with its cooldown is in effective; but if you combine and need to top up agro then just hit roar or sandstorm and then bash has cooled down to use again

it does work, i kid you not..

but then again barbs are human players so if that barb is skilled he is the master of agro alone through skill

Tremblewith - Heavens Tear

I've had pretty high lvl clerics die on Rankar's AoE, due to them getting to close. Max range of IH causes his AoE to not hit the cleric, yet many clerics don't know this. If the cleric heals to quickly before someone gets aggro, the boss will go after the cleric. Also, if the DDs take aggro from whoever was being healed (generally the barb), Rankar will move to the DD and potentially kill the cleric.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

barbs have devour and dmg skills to use between FRs

XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver

truekossy wrote: »

Edit: level 3 true form alone gets a barb to 7.4. If they have a level 10 speed buff from an archer, that becomes 8.1. If they have sage or demon true form, it's 7.8. With level 10 speed buff from an archer, that goes up to 8.5. With Demon speed buff from an archer, that's 8.8. Level 90 herc runs at 8.1


Oh and with Holy Path or Elven Alacrity that's 15.0 for the barb completely nullifying any speed advantage the herc may even be able to think of claiming to have..

All the other nonsense aside...

Level 4 (Sage/Demon variant) True Form boosts speed by 80%, not 60%, bringing the Barb almost on par with a low level Mount at 8.8 unbuffed in Tiger form. Assuming the barb doesn't have any speed boosting equipment on. Archer buff would then bring them up to about 9.5/9.6ish. Throw in any speed boosting gear and they can get up to about 9.9 (9.2 without archer buff) easy.

Sorry...that may have been addressed earlier and I didn't see. But I felt inclined to post that babble anyways. X_X

axt57

A demon veno is still the fastest class though.

I don't even have my demon summer sprint and I already run at 10.4m/s.

XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver

Wouldn't that only be half the time though? Or does the speed boost proc coming out of fox form too? Because Barbs can maintain that speed naturally, thus making them faster overall.

*Figures the topic is derailed enough as is so whatever* XD