Nirvana - Casting examples

mulanrouge

axt57 wrote: »

Still not convinced? Your wiz friend has G15 nirvana armour. At +10 she gets +780 HP on a piece.

mulanrouge here has event boots and helmet. They claim that they are both at 780HP at +10.

We know that the helm and boots are both labelled as "G14".

Come on; they are mislabelled.

yes, the events are G14 labeled and refine for what i stated.

i think they made it clear from the start of Nirvana gear though that the G15 would refine for G14 refinement. the G15 was more for the added stat bonuses versus built for a higher refine. therefore i am hard-pressed to believe it is a mis-label, as the G15 has been defined in terms of what it adds to a certain piece. in this case it would be the bonus stats and not the refine.

axt57

mulanrouge wrote: »

yes, the events are G14 labeled and refine for what i stated.

i think they made it clear from the start of Nirvana gear though that the G15 would refine for G14 refinement.

But it doesn't refine as a G14 item..... A G14 robe, normal robe dropped from mob gets less refine then a G15 nirvana piece (and event "G14" items).

If you were right, a nirvana chest would get +735HP at +10. It does not....

mulanrouge

axt57 wrote: »

But it doesn't refine as a G14 item..... A G14 robe, normal robe dropped from mob gets less refine then a G15 nirvana piece (and event "G14" items).

If you were right, a nirvana chest would get +735HP at +10. It does not....

this issue works with many different pieces as well though, if you want to count out nirvana. it depends on how the refinement is being calculated. some molders will refine for more then HH pieces. G12 cape will refine for less hp then a G12 arcane molder. G11 neck refines more pdef then G12 belt. i know they are different pieces, but what determines the different refinement rates of each individual piece? this is the issue to struggle with.

i still maintain though that the G15 was not meant to refine for more as stated, as the bonuses that are given are worth the piece to begin with.

axt57

+10 G14 shirt - 735HP

+10 G15 shirt - 780HP

+10 G15 nirvana shirt - 780HP

Hope that clears it up for you. G15 nirvana refines as G15. Not as G14.

/sigh

mulanrouge

axt57 wrote: »

+10 G14 shirt - 735HP

+10 G15 shirt - 780HP

+10 G15 nirvana shirt - 780HP

Hope that clears it up for you. G15 nirvana refines as G15. Not as G14.

/sigh

well then you are saying that the event boots and helm refine G15 when they are in fact G14. which makes my point that different pieces refine differently. b:surrender my conclusion is that nirvana refines for G14, i will stick with that until something other then pwicalc is used as they have been proven wrong more then a few times.

it is going in a circle because of the variables involved in the refinement of different pieces. we i know can both agree on that.

besides, pwicalc is wrong in the refinement of the event items saying +10 boots = +735hp, this is false.

axt57

mulanrouge wrote: »

well then you are saying that the event boots and helm refine G15 when they are in fact G14. which makes my point that different pieces refine differently. b:surrender my conclusion is that nirvana refines for G14, i will stick with that until something other then pwicalc is used as they have been proven wrong more then a few times.

Those values are accurate.

besides, pwicalc is wrong in the refinement of the event items saying +10 boots = +735hp, this is false.

Yes. As already said, pwcalc "thinks" they are G14 items and gives them G14 refines - this is correct. At +10, heavenrage boots should receive +735HP. But...

PWI think they are G15 items and gives them G15 refines (and gives them +780HP at +10), yet they have G14 written on them - hence they are wrongly labelled.

Its not hard to understand this.

mulanrouge

axt57 wrote: »

PWI think they are G15 items and gives them G15 refines (and gives them +780HP at +10), yet they have G14 written on them - hence they are wrongly labelled.

Its not hard to understand this.

they are not wrongly labeled. i am unsure as to why you keep thinking that. you have not listened to anything that anyone else has said and therefore tells me you do not fully understand the refinement process. point is pwicalc is wrong on this and yet you are basing all of your "point" on the calc. G14 is the +780 hp at +10. that is rather simple = G15 is refining for G14.

b:surrender

_Vivio_ - Sanctuary

Not participating in this argument. I'm just going to put this out there. pwcalc is wrong in some things and a fairly accurate char calc but to use it as the only basis for an argument is not good enough.

My proof is at +6 the calc for my event boots it says it should be +249 hp which is wrong since mine in the game give me +264.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9d0d59a4e42e73fb

http://i40.tinypic.com/j9agyc.jpg

axt57

mulanrouge wrote: »

G14 is the +780 hp at +10. that is rather simple = G15 is refining for G14.

b:surrender

I'll quote you on this. I know the refine formula and pwcalc is 100% correct on the refines. So I will simply prove you wrong.

Give me some time to format it.

Then you can eat your event helmet, or just stop posting, idc.

Legerity - Sanctuary

My take on this refine anomaly is this:

There are different classes within a grade. G14 NPC white grades are class 1 (lowest possible G14) and refine like a G14 should. Any better tier refines as class 2 in G14 i.e similar to a G15.

Likewise for Lunar weapons at G13, they refine like G15 because they are G13 class III. So far it only seems there are 3 classes in each grade and typical molders are one class higher than their respective NPC base grade.

I do not think they are mislabeled. I just think the "rarer" items receive a "fake grade lift" in refine of one or two levels higher...

mulanrouge

axt57 wrote: »

I'll quote you on this. I know the refine formula and pwcalc is 100% correct on the refines. So I will simply prove you wrong.

Give me some time to format it.

Then you can eat your event helmet, or just stop posting, idc.

epic fail in thinking it is 100% correct:




on noes...these are G14 b:shocked

they are not labeled wrong...see the above posters comment. so eat my event gear b:cute

axt57

This is the refine table for arcane armour (its 99% accurate, some rounding errors): http://i41.tinypic.com/wtdd77.jpg

The formula is pretty simple; its simply the multi*the +1 refine HP

So if the item is G8 (+1 refine HP = 17) and you refine it to +5 (multi=5.63), then:

17*5.63 = ~96 HP ..... http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=dc6ee20e6c78860e

You can check it against any arcane armour of any grade or level.

Here is a TT99, G12 +10 shirt. 27*22.25 = ~601. Check the table for the HP.

You can also go compare it to pwcalc, which is even more accurate then this table.

So yeah, the event items are mislabelled and should be G15 as they receive a G15 refine bonus. And no, nirvana does not refine as G14. - it refines as a full blown G15. Check it yourself...

Basch - Lost City

axt57 wrote: »

This is the refine table for arcane armour (its 99% accurate, some rounding errors): http://i41.tinypic.com/wtdd77.jpg

The formula is pretty simple; its simply the multi*the +1 refine HP

So if the item is G8 (+1 refine HP = 17) and you refine it to +5 (multi=5.63), then:

17*5.63 = ~96 HP ..... http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=dc6ee20e6c78860e

You can check it against any arcane armour of any grade or level.

Here is a TT99, G12 +10 shirt. 27*22.25 = ~601. Check the table for the HP.

You can also go compare it to pwcalc, which is even more accurate then this table.

So yeah, the event items are mislabelled and should be G15 as they receive a G15 refine bonus. And no, nirvana does not refine as G14. - it refines as a full blown G15. Check it yourself...

So where exactly are these multipliers coming from? I'm having a hard time seeing how you validate your argument with a table you posted within a tinypic url instead of actually linking us to the original source from which the table would come from. Until you can do so, and do it effectively and actually validate these points, you my friend are wrong.

axt57

Basch - Lost City wrote: »

So where exactly are these multipliers coming from? I'm having a hard time seeing how you validate your argument with a table you posted within a tinypic url instead of actually linking us to the original source from which the table would come from. Until you can do so, and do it effectively and actually validate these points, you my friend are wrong.

I made the table myself in excel. The multipliers are from the +refine HP in question/min refine HP.

300/8 = 37.5 etc

As I said, its fairly accurate. Check it against ingame refined arcane armour.

Llama - Lost City

axt57 wrote: »

I made the table myself in excel. The multipliers are from the +refine HP in question/min refine HP.

300/8 = 37.5 etc

As I said, its fairly accurate. Check it against ingame refined arcane armour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-uCYTKsCE

Stop arguing you damn n00b, even the warsoul weapons refine grade 14.

mulanrouge

axt57 wrote: »

This is the refine table for arcane armour (its 99% accurate, some rounding errors): http://i41.tinypic.com/wtdd77.jpg

The formula is pretty simple; its simply the multi*the +1 refine HP

So if the item is G8 (+1 refine HP = 17) and you refine it to +5 (multi=5.63), then:

17*5.63 = ~96 HP ..... http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=dc6ee20e6c78860e

You can check it against any arcane armour of any grade or level.

Here is a TT99, G12 +10 shirt. 27*22.25 = ~601. Check the table for the HP.

You can also go compare it to pwcalc, which is even more accurate then this table.

So yeah, the event items are mislabelled and should be G15 as they receive a G15 refine bonus. And no, nirvana does not refine as G14. - it refines as a full blown G15. Check it yourself...

what you have shown me is that you have taken the numbers of pwicalc and have adapted a "working" formula. one in which anyone could accomplish. b:chuckle nice try and even the "error in rounding" = lol

they refine for G14 b:bye

axt57

Llama - Lost City wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-uCYTKsCE

Stop arguing you damn n00b, even the warsoul weapons refine grade 14.

Lol, sure they do.

mulanrouge wrote: »

what you have shown me is that you have taken the numbers of pwicalc and have adapted a "working" formula. one in which anyone could accomplish. b:chuckle nice try and even the "error in rounding" = lol

they refine for G14 b:bye

Check the numbers ingame. Don't be in denial - everyone makes mistakes b:bye

Basch - Lost City

axt57 wrote: »

Check the numbers ingame. Don't be in denial - everyone makes mistakes b:bye

Perhaps if you used a more reliable formula and a refine chart that doesn't come from the mind of a 12 year old then we might actually be more inclined to agree with you. Using pwcalc and your low grade math education doesn't exactly make for a very good argument. Anyone can make a formula fit to their argument.

axt57

Basch - Lost City wrote: »

Perhaps if you used a more reliable formula and a refine chart that doesn't come from the mind of a 12 year old then we might actually be more inclined to agree with you. Using pwcalc and your low grade math education doesn't exactly make for a very good argument. Anyone can make a formula fit to their argument.

Well then I'll be waiting for your take on the table; since you can do it much better - please do to further prove me right.

My goal was to simply show that G14 =/= G15 refines and that the event items get G15 refines; the table does it perfectly, which is all that is required.

And "fit to their argument"? It fits the ingame refines, with maybe 1% error.

mulanrouge

axt57 wrote: »

Well then I'll be waiting for your take on the table; since you can do it much better - please do.

My goal was to simply show that G14 =/= G15 refines; the table does it perfectly, which is all that is required.

And "fit to their argument"? It fits the ingame refines, with maybe 1% error.

the error here is more then 1%. i took the liberty of checking the in-game gear as you so asked.




and really here? 154 versus your 128 on table? is that labeled wrong and should be closer to G15? i think not sorry.




like we mentioned earlier, there are different refinements for different items and different grades.

axt57

mulanrouge wrote: »

the error here is more then 1%. i took the liberty of checking the in-game gear as you so asked.


and really here? 154 versus your 128 on table? is that labeled wrong and should be closer to G15? i think not sorry.

The difference is 2-3 HP in those pics. As I said there is a rounding error somewhere (fairly sure its in the base HP). The formula still works fine.

Not sure about that warsoul helm; that thing requires magic stat to wear. I think I'm right in saying hats don't need a magic stat?

It doesn't fit anywhere on the chart, plus has a magic requisite stat...

Solandri - Heavens Tear

mulanrouge wrote: »

epic fail in thinking it is 100% correct:




on noes...these are G14 b:shocked

they are not labeled wrong...see the above posters comment. so eat my event gear b:cute

You're misunderstanding what he's saying. You're saying G14 at +10 should give 780 hp. He's saying G15 at +10 should give 780 hp.

What's needed to settle this is a comparison shot of a similar armor piece that's G14 or G15. Nirvana would be a good candidate since we know it's G15.

For the record, axt57 was the one who first figured out that the Lunarglade Neon Purgatory was mislabled as G13 when it was refining as G15. In that case, Sinrabansho was also labeled as G13, but comparing stats it was clear the NP was getting more per refine than Sinrabansho. Ergo, one of them was mislabeled. While I don't know if he's right in this case, he's not just making stuff up. I would not dismiss his claims as cavalierly as some of you are.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

For the record, axt57 was the one who first figured out that the Lunarglade Neon Purgatory was mislabled as G13 when it was refining as G15. In that case, Sinrabansho was also labeled as G13, but comparing stats it was clear the NP was getting more per refine than Sinrabansho. Ergo, one of them was mislabeled.

Perhaps it's not mislabeled, due to the rarity and quality of such items it may be intentional that Lunar as well as 2nd/3rd map gear refines higher than standard grade equipment that is more common. Lunar and 2nd/3rd map gear are considered elite gear with much higher farming costs than standard TT or OHT crafted gear.

Judging that both the past boots and helms also come in several different grades progressing through G12, G13 and G14, it would be much less likely to be mislabeled than intentionally getting the next higher refine bonus as a perk.

Also, while Nirvana G13 weapons may still get the same refines as G15, their base damage is considerably lower, so even with high refines there will always remain a vast difference in damage between them, separating the quenched/forged G15 with what I believe is correctly labeled G13.

Just because it may not fit some pattern specific chart row or column does not mean that it was not intentional.

axt57

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You're misunderstanding what he's saying. You're saying G14 at +10 should give 780 hp. He's saying G15 at +10 should give 780 hp.

What's needed to settle this is a comparison shot of a similar armor piece that's G14 or G15. Nirvana would be a good candidate since we know it's G15.

This is true, but sadly AFAIK there is no "normal" G14 equipment currently in the game, so it can only be worked out through the refine table what the true G14/G15 refines are.

Since the table seems to coincide -very closely- to ingame refines that do exist, I would say it goes some way to prove that G14 =/= G15 refines.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Perhaps it's not mislabeled, due to the rarity and quality of such items it may be intentional that Lunar as well as 2nd/3rd map gear refines higher than standard grade equipment that is more common.

Then you are saying the TT100 magic sword is more common and of lesser quality then the lunar weapons, since even being the same grade, it refines lower.

I don't see how thats possible; especially when the TT100 is considered a very rare item (the red-orange name ingame).

The NP also refines better then the R8. There is no way the NP is off better quality and less common then R8.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

axt57 wrote: »

Then you are saying the TT100 magic sword is more common and of lesser quality then the lunar weapons, since even being the same grade, it refines lower.

I don't see how thats possible; especially when the TT100 is considered a very rare item (the red-orange name ingame).

The NP also refines better then the R8. There is no way the NP is off better quality and less common then R8.

You're saying that an item is mislabeled when it might have just received initial base stats that were incorrect and assuming they are mislabeled. Seeing how there is some consistency to this, it seems it may very well have been intentional. Without any direct contact to the developers to ask wtf were they thinking, we'll never really know.

axt57

It is likely they received the incorrect grade. This error continues to confuse because it is mislabelled on the item. It is also very likely that the "G13" nirvana weapons received the wrong grade.

Intentional? Even you must surely admit that the lunar weapons refining better then rank 8 weapons is bizarre at best and a big coding error at worst.

Here are two ingame rank 8 magic weapons:



Check the refines yourself; you will find out they are G14 and refine less then the "G13" lunar weapons.

But you are right that we may never know what happened - just that there is something wrong somewhere for sure.

kenlee

clearly refines doesnt define the grade of a weapon since lots of them refine as any other grade. so im thinking more about bonuses or base stats like atk or def

Michael_Dark - Lost City

axt57 wrote: »

Intentional? Even you must surely admit that the lunar weapons refining better then rank 8 weapons is bizarre at best and a big coding error at worst.

That may be the case, and I'm not sure with the magic weapons, however the base damage of the Rank 8 items when refined deal far greater damage than Lunar. A +12 Rank 8 bow does so much more damage than a +12 Heaven's Shatterer.

So when you're comparing weapons of equal refines, the higher grade weapon *still* does more damage, which would also support that they are indeed graded higher. *shrug*

mulanrouge

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You're misunderstanding what he's saying. You're saying G14 at +10 should give 780 hp. He's saying G15 at +10 should give 780 hp.

huh?

that is what this entire thing has been about. i do not see how you think i am misunderstanding. i maintain that they are refining correctly and that there has not been a "mislabeling" of the grades in terms of their refines.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

So when you're comparing weapons of equal refines, the higher grade weapon *still* does more damage, which would also support that they are indeed graded higher. *shrug*

i stopped trying b:surrender

axt57

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

So when you're comparing weapons of equal refines, the higher grade weapon *still* does more damage, which would also support that they are indeed graded higher. *shrug*

The damage gap would be even bigger if the refines were correct for each grade.