Sage or Demon (Assassins... ofc. lol)

Kmnjbhdvt - Lost City

RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »

what...no...you got it all wrong. im going demon. sage sucks

already stale and getting old.b:shutupb:shutupb:shutup

RADD_RATT - Harshlands

Kmnjbhdvt - Lost City wrote: »

already stale and getting old.b:shutupb:shutupb:shutup

yay demonb:surrender

Kmnjbhdvt - Lost City

RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »

yay demonb:surrender

me? im going Sage.
int gear is just for cs'ers. heavy cs'ers.

Trawne - Lost City

Kmnjbhdvt - Lost City wrote: »

me? im going Sage.
int gear is just for cs'ers. heavy cs'ers.

int gear works for sage too.

sage: higher DPH, better survival capability

demon: higher DPS (through demon spark), better target control

_Ghostz_ - Archosaur

Trawne - Lost City wrote: »

int gear works for sage too.

sage: higher DPH, better survival capability

demon: higher DPS (through demon spark), better target control

Ok Let me expand on this, First of all if anyone out of both the Paths is cash shoppers its gonna be the Demon want to know why?

1. Interval- that stuff doesnt come cheap. Wanna get the almighty 5.0 Att Speed you wanna know how much that costs?....Exactly

2.Equipment/Weapon refines- Fast attack speed means your gonna be normal attacking. Normal attackin means your going to be out of stealth more, in order to kill your target. Being out of stealth more means HIGH chance of getting your a** 1-2 shotted. Which in turn will make you QQ and refine/get better gear in order to be able to kill them before they kill you.

3.Control Target Lol- Controlling target means nothing if you cant kill them in the time. In addition, we have BMs for control, why would you want to control better then we already can, if you could kill them in 2 blows?

Now with this being said, i will say it again. Demon will be perfect in PVE, High DPS, better control, perfect for PVE. PVP not so much


Sage- Lemme paint you a picture.

Stealth + semi refined Bezerk daggers + Heaven Spark???

Thats not even all they can do but thats a lil taste lmao Nuff said

Trawne - Lost City

_Ghostz_ - Archosaur wrote: »

Ok Let me expand on this, First of all if anyone out of both the Paths is cash shoppers its gonna be the Demon want to know why?

1. Interval- that stuff doesnt come cheap. Wanna get the almighty 5.0 Att Speed you wanna know how much that costs?....Exactly

2.Equipment/Weapon refines- Fast attack speed means your gonna be normal attacking. Normal attackin means your going to be out of stealth more, in order to kill your target. Being out of stealth more means HIGH chance of getting your a** 1-2 shotted. Which in turn will make you QQ and refine/get better gear in order to be able to kill them before they kill you.

3.Control Target Lol- Controlling target means nothing if you cant kill them in the time. In addition, we have BMs for control, why would you want to control better then we already can, if you could kill them in 2 blows?

Now with this being said, i will say it again. Demon will be perfect in PVE, High DPS, better control, perfect for PVE. PVP not so much


Sage- Lemme paint you a picture.

Stealth + semi refined Bezerk daggers + Heaven Spark???

Thats not even all they can do but thats a lil taste lmao Nuff said

and again another idiot pokes his head out. stated before it takes you what? 4-6 seconds to pull of your 2-3 skills and restealth

in that time a demon hits the target 25-30 times for more damage than you did.

most sin skills take about 2 seconds to use. a demon in demon spark swings 10 times during that for more cumulative damage than that 1 skill.



on the whole "demons will be the CSer" bit: look at rank 8 gear for sin, thats pretty beastly sage gear right there.

a demon sin will CS to get int gear. a sage sin can also CS for int gear or CS for high dex/crit gear.


though i'm planning on going demon i can see a big reason to go sage. watch killermates aoe video. doing that as a sage sin will simply be amazing

SaphireDemon - Lost City

_Ghostz_ - Archosaur wrote: »

Sage- Lemme paint you a picture.

Stealth + semi refined Bezerk daggers + Heaven Spark???

Thats not even all they can do but thats a lil taste lmao Nuff said

Sage spark + zerk + sin (fastest chi gaining class)=
they paint pictures / toenails and drink tea cuz it takes hours to kill a target

Demon spark + zerk + sin (fastest chi gaining class)=
nothing lives

A Demon can do EVERYTHING better then a "Balerina in a Tutu" Aka. Sage can
b:bye

damage per hit is worthless unless u can 1 hit someone
and u can be a lvl 80 and 1 hit a squishy.. dont need any sage stuff

demon + demon spark can heal himself so fast that he doesnt need pots
when soloing a HH

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E3Hf4cMyUw

and tell me... would u rather have stronger aoe skills that u can spamm every 8 second
and 50% less deffence
and be forced to fight a barb over an hour... a charm battle
*for those who remember SolidSnake @ west gate and that BM (cbastor i belive)*

Or would u want to take out a barb in less then 15 sec ?
(maybe 10 since we are getting a 79 water dmg skill that works for NORMAL attacks only)

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar8102OO_rU&feature=related


Ps.
who cares that u get 15% more dmg from mastery.. you lose 10% from crit buff
where as a demon gains 10% from it

Trawne - Lost City

SaphireDemon - Lost City wrote: »

Sage spark + zerk + sin (fastest chi gaining class)=
they paint pictures / toenails and drink tea cuz it takes hours to kill a target

Demon spark + zerk + sin (fastest chi gaining class)=
nothing lives

A Demon can do EVERYTHING better then a "Balerina in a Tutu" Aka. Sage can
b:bye

damage per hit is worthless unless u can 1 hit someone
and u can be a lvl 80 and 1 hit a squishy.. dont need any sage stuff

demon + demon spark can heal himself so fast that he doesnt need pots
when soloing a HH

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E3Hf4cMyUw

and tell me... would u rather have stronger aoe skills that u can spamm every 8 second
and 50% less deffence
and be forced to fight a barb over an hour... a charm battle
*for those who remember SolidSnake @ west gate and that BM (cbastor i belive)*

Or would u want to take out a barb in less then 15 sec ?
(maybe 10 since we are getting a 79 water dmg skill that works for NORMAL attacks only)

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar8102OO_rU&feature=related


Ps.
who cares that u get 15% more dmg from mastery.. you lose 10% from crit buff
where as a demon gains 10% from it

dont go off the other end of the stick now....

demons cant do everything better. in PVE a sage is better at tanking bosses. 25% less damage taken, 3% bloodpaint, and a 33% evade (sage focused mind)

also a sage will do slightly better at the aoe combo killermate showed in his video. sage get 50% subsea damage and 5 more attack levels, which will work with genie skills.

demons do out damage sage in single target combat though.

also a sages' wolf emblem will always be up. though a demon's will be up when we need it anyway

Wolfyyy - Raging Tide

SaphireDemon - Lost City wrote: »

Sage spark + zerk + sin (fastest chi gaining class)=
they paint pictures / toenails and drink tea cuz it takes hours to kill a target

Demon spark + zerk + sin (fastest chi gaining class)=
nothing lives

A Demon can do EVERYTHING better then a "Balerina in a Tutu" Aka. Sage can
b:bye

damage per hit is worthless unless u can 1 hit someone
and u can be a lvl 80 and 1 hit a squishy.. dont need any sage stuff

demon + demon spark can heal himself so fast that he doesnt need pots
when soloing a HH

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E3Hf4cMyUw

and tell me... would u rather have stronger aoe skills that u can spamm every 8 second
and 50% less deffence
and be forced to fight a barb over an hour... a charm battle
*for those who remember SolidSnake @ west gate and that BM (cbastor i belive)*

Or would u want to take out a barb in less then 15 sec ?
(maybe 10 since we are getting a 79 water dmg skill that works for NORMAL attacks only)

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar8102OO_rU&feature=related


Ps.
who cares that u get 15% more dmg from mastery.. you lose 10% from crit buff
where as a demon gains 10% from it

There is a Level 100 Sin ( Couri ) on Raging Tide. He wears HA and he can solo lunar / TT bosses even without demon sparks. He brought me along in his solo runs and taught me how to complete both instances back to back in less than 1 hour. Has a base atk speed of 3.3 with genie skills on. It doesn't matter if he goes demon or sage.

Probably, the differences between the 30% more damage gained from dagger devotion will make up for the slightly lesser attack speed compared to demon. Also, the CN server has recently nerfed demon spark to no attack speed gained. Demon sins now can only hope the change is not implemented on PWI.

EvAxx - Sanctuary

"Also, the CN server has recently nerfed demon spark to no attack speed gained"

That's certain indication that demon's spark was overpowered. The only class that it would not have helped as much against is another assassin that went sage but every other class would have been decimated by the incredibly high dps and dph.

Though, that sort of destroys my hope of going demon and enjoying QQs of sage sins. Without demon spark, sage and demons might be on equal footing. Depends how long a demon sin can live to get off that 20% faster attack rate skill.

HairyFocker - Lost City

why the hell would they nerf Demon spark?

any two twin toons, b:chuckle
(same gear, same class, same everything, except if both have 5aps or venos i guess)
that demon & sage sparked at the same time then **** each other
25% less damage > 25% attack rate

EvAxx - Sanctuary

HairyFocker - Lost City wrote: »

why the hell would they nerf Demon spark?

any two twin toons, b:chuckle
(same gear, same class, same everything, except if both have 5aps or venos i guess)
that demon & sage sparked at the same time then **** each other
25% less damage > 25% attack rate

Sage assassin does not need the 25% less damage to beat demon assassin. However, you are wrong that 25% less damage > 25% attack rate. It would be true if 25% attack rate simply meant 25% extra damage but that's wrong. If a sin has 2.22 atk/s and casts demon spark, it's atk/s is 5. Which means double the damage. In almost every case, 25% attack rate > 25% less damage. Maybe if the toon's attack speed is really low in the first place, 25% less damage is better.

HairyFocker - Lost City

EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage assassin does not need the 25% less damage to beat demon assassin. However, you are wrong that 25% less damage > 25% attack rate. It would be true if 25% attack rate simply meant 25% extra damage but that's wrong. If a sin has 2.22 atk/s and casts demon spark, it's atk/s is 5. Which means double the damage. In almost every case, 25% attack rate > 25% less damage. Maybe if the toon's attack speed is really low in the first place, 25% less damage is better.

no.
25% of 2.22 is 0.555 so the resulting atk/s is 2.775..

ok let's calculate it this way.
both toons have 4 atk/s with 1k atk.
both sparking.
in 10 secs of hacking the damage will be:

sage-> 1,000 x 40(4 atk/s) = 40,000
demon-> 750(-25% dmg) x 50(5 atk/s) = 37,500

Asheera - Raging Tide

HairyFocker - Lost City wrote: »

no.
25% of 2.22 is 0.555 so the resulting atk/s is 2.775..

ok let's calculate it this way.
both toons have 4 atk/s with 1k atk.
both sparking.
in 10 secs of hacking the damage will be:

sage-> 1,000 x 40(4 atk/s) = 40,000
demon-> 750(-25% dmg) x 50(5 atk/s) = 37,500

Would be awesome and more balanced to work that way but it doesn't.

Your attack speed is 2.22 in that example, which means a 0.45 attack interval. Demon Spark makes this interval -0.25, which means 0.2. Which equals 5 atk per second.

HairyFocker - Lost City

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

Would be awesome and more balanced to work that way but it doesn't.

Your attack speed is 2.22 in that example, which means a 0.45 attack interval. Demon Spark makes this interval -0.25, which means 0.2. Which equals 5 atk per second.

that is how they calculate it? base on interval?
so at base dagger speed of 1.25 w/c is 0.8(25% is 0.2) will become 1.67 instead of 1.56?

Asheera - Raging Tide

1 / 1.25 = 0.8
0.8 - 0.25 = 0.55
1 / 0.55 = 1.81

So it's 1.81, not 1.67 like you said. And not 1.25 * 1.25 = 1.56 as it should be, mathematically correct.


This is indeed a flawed algorithm and not mathematically correct which is why, in my opinion, it sucks. You can't explain it as it's said, giving 25% extra attack speed. It's not even close to that. Correctly it should have said -0.25 attack interval, but since some people don't know true math and mechanics I guess it would just confuse them.

Still saying 25% faster attack speed is far from truth and a lie. Maybe they intended that at first, but this formula fails xD

skyxiii

EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

If a sin has 2.22 atk/s and casts demon spark, it's atk/s is 5. Which means double the damage. In almost every case, 25% attack rate > 25% less damage. Maybe if the toon's attack speed is really low in the first place, 25% less damage is better.

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

Your attack speed is 2.22 in that example, which means a 0.45 attack interval. Demon Spark makes this interval -0.25, which means 0.2. Which equals 5 atk per second.

Um... what?! Where are you guys hearing these things from?

Okay, why do you guys think 5 attacks per second is so hard/expensive to get in the first place? It's because you need to stack lots of -interval from specific pieces of gear.

Think about it like this.

If 2.22 attacks per second equated to 5 aps under demon spark, then obtaining 5 attacks per second would simply require an interval between attack rating of 0.45. (1/0.45 = 2.22)

With:

-rank 4 chest with -.05 interval (cheap)
-1 pair 3* level 74 requirement fists with -.05 interval (cheap)
-1 pair lv 60 dragon quest wristguards with -0.1 interval (cheap)
-1 robe with 0.05 interval (expensive)

I can achieve 5 attacks per second under your logic.
Sadly, this is not the case. 5 APS needs much more than 1 expensive piece of equipment.

2.22 aps does not translate to 5 aps under demon spark.

In addition, with the possibility of demon spark being nerfed and losing its increase attack speed buff, this wont even be a factor.

Asheera - Raging Tide

Hmm I did hear you need 3.33 atk/sec to achieve 5 with demon spark... this still leaves me completely in the dark, mind to share the formula? XD

Trawne - Lost City

EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage assassin does not need the 25% less damage to beat demon assassin. However, you are wrong that 25% less damage > 25% attack rate. It would be true if 25% attack rate simply meant 25% extra damage but that's wrong. If a sin has 2.22 atk/s and casts demon spark, it's atk/s is 5. Which means double the damage. In almost every case, 25% attack rate > 25% less damage. Maybe if the toon's attack speed is really low in the first place, 25% less damage is better.

your both right and wrong. once a sage sin reaches 4 APS (maybe 3.33) in a fight where both triple spark and swing at each other sage will win, pretty much due to sins not getting the full benefit of the -.25 int (or if this CN thing is true no bonus =/)


if they really take away the attack speed bonus and dont add something else to demon spark there really is no reason NOT to chose sage as a sin =/

skyxiii

Trawne - Lost City wrote: »

your both right and wrong. once a sage sin reaches 4 APS (maybe 3.33) in a fight where both triple spark and swing at each other sage will win, pretty much due to sins not getting the full benefit of the -.25 int (or if this CN thing is true no bonus =/)
if they really take away the attack speed bonus and dont add something else to demon spark there really is no reason NOT to chose sage as a sin =/

They're not correct about the 2.22 aps = 5 aps under demon spark.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you the person saying that even without the demon spark IAS buff, demon sins will still do more damage? That would be a reason wouldn't it?

Trawne - Lost City

skyxiii wrote: »

They're not correct about the 2.22 aps = 5 aps under demon spark.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you the person saying that even without the demon spark IAS buff, demon sins will still do more damage? That would be a reason wouldn't it?

i didnt say anything about that part of their posts...but it should be correct....or does demon only really give -.2 int? in which case 2.22 would go to 4 APS. i dont have a demon physical class to check this out myself


i'd have to search through my posts to make sure i didnt say that while half asleep some night...but if i did that's incorrect. not counting dagger devotion, sage and demon spark damages are equal. add in 15% damage from dagger devotion and sage comes on top in the interval damage fight.

without the AS buff from demon spark the demon sin advantages are: longer stuns, a 10% HP debuff, 15 second faster use of shadow escape, 15s duration on subsea, and the 100% interrupt from knife throw, chance of AS boost from slipstream

sages benefits: 5 extra attack levels under CoD, 65% AS debuff, 3% bloodpaint, 180 Chi RDS, always up wolf emblem, purifying shadow escape (i can see this being a huge + if it removes nix bleeds), 33% dodge chance from focused mind, 150s CD on shadow teleport (i believe it's a typo on the description and is BY 30 not TO 30), subsea amps 50% instead of 30%, deaden nerves up 2.5 minutes(easier to always have prepped), 15% more damage from dagger devotion (demon is 75% with 1% crit, sage is 90% flat)


i know i stated before the only reason i was going demon over sage was i wanted 5 APS for a higher DPS than sage could put out but that sage had better survivability. without a boot to AS on demon spark sage equals/comes slightly ahead in damage with a nice bonus of 25% damage reduction + other nice survival skills


5APS is the whole reason demons were better than sages for any physical class. without it many demon classes would be better off sage. even EA's would have high reason to go sage with quickshot being the only reason to stay demon.

EvAxx - Sanctuary

Trawne - Lost City wrote: »

your both right and wrong. once a sage sin reaches 4 APS (maybe 3.33) in a fight where both triple spark and swing at each other sage will win, pretty much due to sins not getting the full benefit of the -.25 int (or if this CN thing is true no bonus =/)


if they really take away the attack speed bonus and dont add something else to demon spark there really is no reason NOT to chose sage as a sin =/

Yes I posted what you said before as a hypothetical, but let's be reasonable. I don't see how most sins will be able to afford reaching 4 aps without using skill.

Even without demon spark, slipstream strike could be an alternative depending on it's duration.. but obviously it'll never be good as an IAS demon spark.

For those who asked how it was calculated.

1/2.2222atk/s = .45s/atk
.45s/atk - .25s/atk = .2 s/atk
1 / .2s/atk = 5atk/s

Amounet - Dreamweaver

Well, in my opinion it would be simple.. If u want DPH u should roll a Wizard, go sage and one shot a group of barbs with a Black Ice Dragon Crit ^^ but as a sin u make much more dmg with dps then with skills (auto attack has no channel and cast time afterall :P) so - intervall, aka DPS, is the way to go and demon spark completes that.
As well even though some skills seem to get nefd (like Tackling slash), other skills (like Rib Strike) are just pawnage and worth letting the nerfd skills at lvl 10 just to get these pwn skills BUT!!! if they really nerf demon spark for sins, the only logical choice would be sage. Cause then it would outdamage demons good.
I hope PWI wont do the same as CN and keep the demon spark as it is, cause what would be demon without minus channel or intervall?
If it stayes there id say Demon FTW!

PS: about -inervall gear: im currently lvl 69 with my sin and my gear is crappy (cause i lvl to fast and getting good gear would be pointless till i stop lvling like i do now) and even though i have no intervall stuff on me i do a lot more dps with wind shield on me wich only gives me 10% more attack speed... combined with the other genie -int skill and demon spark even a sin with no -int in gear would do ALOT more dmg... (if they dont nerf Hell Spark ofc)

TurboTaxi - Lost City

interval gear is really great. specialy in pve. mobs + bosses go down very very quickly

Bellatriix - Archosaur

I'm going Demon. ;p Just cause Demons are cooler than Sages. b:cute

Yishuin - Sanctuary

I think, before saying "im going demon because..." or "Im going sage because...", we should just wait for the skills to be released.

Ok there are some information about these skills and their effect but as long as it is not online it can be changed.

Just the "nerf" of demon spark should be enough for us to wait and see.

Okeano - Harshlands

HairyFocker - Lost City wrote: »

no.
25% of 2.22 is 0.555 so the resulting atk/s is 2.775..

ok let's calculate it this way.
both toons have 4 atk/s with 1k atk.
both sparking.
in 10 secs of hacking the damage will be:

sage-> 1,000 x 40(4 atk/s) = 40,000
demon-> 750(-25% dmg) x 50(5 atk/s) = 37,500

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

Would be awesome and more balanced to work that way but it doesn't.

Your attack speed is 2.22 in that example, which means a 0.45 attack interval. Demon Spark makes this interval -0.25, which means 0.2. Which equals 5 atk per second.

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

1 / 1.25 = 0.8
0.8 - 0.25 = 0.55
1 / 0.55 = 1.81

So it's 1.81, not 1.67 like you said. And not 1.25 * 1.25 = 1.56 as it should be, mathematically correct.


This is indeed a flawed algorithm and not mathematically correct which is why, in my opinion, it sucks. You can't explain it as it's said, giving 25% extra attack speed. It's not even close to that. Correctly it should have said -0.25 attack interval, but since some people don't know true math and mechanics I guess it would just confuse them.

Still saying 25% faster attack speed is far from truth and a lie. Maybe they intended that at first, but this formula fails xD

EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes I posted what you said before as a hypothetical, but let's be reasonable. I don't see how most sins will be able to afford reaching 4 aps without using skill.

Even without demon spark, slipstream strike could be an alternative depending on it's duration.. but obviously it'll never be good as an IAS demon spark.

For those who asked how it was calculated.

1/2.2222atk/s = .45s/atk
.45s/atk - .25s/atk = .2 s/atk
1 / .2s/atk = 5atk/s

*Sigh* k, let a former BM enlighten you guys.

It is correct that 3.33, not 2.22, sparks to 5. Demon spark neither increase your attack rate directly by 25% or take 0.25 off your interval. What demon spark, and I believe every % speed bonus, does is take XX% off of your interval; 25% in the case of demon spark.

If you have 3.33 aps, you also have 0.3 interval. Take 25% off of that, 0.3*0.75=.225, which rounds to the nearest interval number, which is 0.2.

In another example, I have a total of -0.2 interval from gears. That brings my interval to 0.6 second from 0.8 second, which is 1.67 aps normally. When I demon spark I have 2.22. To get that, you take 25% off of 0.6 or equivalent to 0.75*0.6=0.45. That's already a "whole" interval number so no need for rounding. 1/0.45=2.22.

HairyFocker - Lost City

thanks for this info.
although i find it weird how they calculate.
i guess i have to always keep in mind interval rate rather than the actual attack rate.

Asheera - Raging Tide

@Okeano:

Oh so the formula is mathematically correct after all, and linear. Multiplying the interval by 0.75 is same as the attack rate by 1.33

Sooo, in fact, Demon Spark increases attack speed by 33%, not 25%.

The only weird and messed up thing is that the interval is rounded to nearest .05, which could cause confusion I guess.

Okeano - Harshlands

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Okeano:

Oh so the formula is mathematically correct after all, and linear. Multiplying the interval by 0.75 is same as the attack rate by 1.33

Sooo, in fact, Demon Spark increases attack speed by 33%, not 25%.

The only weird and messed up thing is that the interval is rounded to nearest .05, which could cause confusion I guess.

I'm not sure which formula you are referring to, but the one I quoted in your post is not, since you were directly subtracting 0.25 second out of the interval instead of 25% of it. Yes, due to rounding, it won't always be 33%. Calculating it by 75% of interval then round down is the correct formula.