Changes for the Clerics

palpdaddy
palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
edited March 2010 in Suggestion Box
In this Post I want to talk about one of the areas PWI could use improvement in. Which is, it’s too easy for a Cleric to get killed in dungeons. It seems a Cleric’s Healing Spells create a lot of “aggravation” for Mobs and cause them to go after the Cleric and kill him or her. This part wasn’t developed with enough care. If the Cleric is going to pull enemies with heals, then the Tanks or all players who can absorb some damage need to have a “Mob Taunt” skill, where they can make the Mob focus on attacking just them for the next few seconds or something of that nature. You have to keep in mind...if the Healer dies, the entire party usually dies.

Developers of PWI should have seen this as a issue and did something to soften the blow. Either cut a Cleric’s “aggravation” or give the Barbs and Bladesmen two or three Mob Taunt Skills. Not only would his save players with Low Health, it will also add even more value to the role of Tank. I died about three or four times as a Cleric and it was for the same reason every time. My Group Heal pissed off a “Mobster” and it came and killed me before anyone could pull it off. It’s hard enough trying to keep five people alive who are running around like crazy, going out of range of the healing, but when you have to run yourself or worry about not dying....that adds too much stress to the job of Cleric.

Having the Cleric so easily attacked is also impractical on the Mob A.I. Design. You have Bladesmen, Barbs, and Venos and the works just unloading on an enemy and all the enemy can think to do is go after the Healer. That’s a cheap way to wipe out a party, I’m sorry. Even other MMOs give a Healer a better chance at staying alive or they at least give the Tanks and others “Mob Control” abilities. Remake a Cleric’s Shell ability; let it absorb all damage in exchange for Mp and let this effect last longer. Hell, we Clerics have no armor....we have no Health, unless VIT Build, we are naked PWI Developers.

This issue had me scared to even cast one group heal on the party after my third death. I knew if a “Mobster” got loose and came after me that was it! If all that doesn’t add a bad taste to your mouth, then toss in the fact you get a lot of spell “interrupts” as a Cleric. A LOT!!!! A Cleric’s stronger Heals take more time to cast, so having constant spell “interrupts” is another killer for the Cleric Class/Job.

If Barbs and Bladesmen have “Mob Taunts” then they need to be improved, because what I saw was no control of the Mob what so ever by the Tank. Don’t get me wrong...it’s not the Tank’s fault either. It’s the lacking in the minds of the Developers of PWI. This is something that really needs to be fixed, even if nothing else gets added to or fixed for awhile. The Cleric’s best Healing ability comes a lot later, but once again....with no way for a Tank or others to control a Mob well, the Cleric is a sitting duck.

This is evident in so many other MMOs I’ve played similar to PWI or in contrast. PWI is the first MMO I’ve played that has a Healer creating so much Mob “Aggravation” and no real way to get the Mob off the Healer when they decide to kill him or her. I say give the Clerics some armor! There is no reason why a Cleric shouldn’t be able to absorb some damage because our Health is not even remotely close to a Barbs or Bladesmen. Therefore allowing a Cleric to wear heavy armor takes nothing away from a Tanking Job, because we will not have the health for that still. Keep in mind PWI Developers, a Cleric needs to be with the group during fights because our Group Healing has a range limit to it, a short one.

So far I’ve been going all Mag, but I am going to find some balance with my Att Points. Mostly Mag but with Vit right behind. There’s no way a Cleric can make it with the game’s current unbalance. Sometimes a feel like just redoing my Att Points and going all Vit and Str just to wear the heavy armor. You can always get a MP charm to keep magic up right? Not so right, because lower Mag means weaker spells and a chance you may not have enough based magic/mana to begin with.

For those of you that do not play the Cleric...let me tell you. You have know idea of how bad you’ll feel after you die while you were standing behind the entire Party! Yep....a “Mobster” will leave a pool of fighters and go right for you....completely ignoring any other high DPS on it. The “Mobster” will not stop coming until you are history. Once you’re dead...then it will happily kill the rest of the Party because the Healing is over for them. You’re better off Being any other class unless you like stressful times like that.

If you must go Cleric, then go PVP Cleric. Place your Att Points in Vit and Str; get in the heavy armor and get a MP Charm. Place enough pnts in Mag to stimulate it and then have fun taking out everyone in PVP.

Regards
Post edited by palpdaddy on
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Comments

  • FatherTed - Dreamweaver
    FatherTed - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,723 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    If there's "no way a Cleric can make it with the game's current unbalance" why are there so many clerics who have and continue to 'make it'?

    It's about learning the right way to do it, not PW making the class easier to play.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Thanks for the sig Ophida :3
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    FatherTed - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    If there's "no way a Cleric can make it with the game's current unbalance" why are there so many clerics who have and continue to 'make it'?

    It's about learning the right way to do it, not PW making the class easier to play.

    There is no right way to do it...that's the point. What's the right way to stop a Mobster from wanting to kill the Healer? YOU CAN'T!!!

    There's no ability for that. My ideas I suggested won't make it easy, but will add a needed balance. If I wanted to make the Cleric Class easier to play, believe me...I have some Ideas for that, but that's outside the scope of my Post. Let me also add, I my self am a Game Developer. In fact, my Company Produces Digital Media in general. I've been playing and studying games for at least two decades. The issues in PWI does not take rocket science to fix.
  • FatherTed - Dreamweaver
    FatherTed - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,723 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    A.) A good cleric won't draw aggo - at least not unintentionally. It's simply a matter of waiting till the barb/tank has proper aggro 9 times out of 10. Barbs have very good aggro drawing skills - maybe you've been partying with barbs who don't know how to use them.

    B.) A good cleric can handle one mob, at least well enough to survive multiple hits till someone grabs the mob off them.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Thanks for the sig Ophida :3
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    FatherTed - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    A.) A good cleric won't draw aggo - at least not unintentionally. It's simply a matter of waiting till the barb/tank has proper aggro 9 times out of 10. Barbs have very good aggro drawing skills - maybe you've been partying with barbs who don't know how to use them.

    B.) A good cleric can handle one mob, at least well enough to survive multiple hits till someone grabs the mob off them.

    OMG!!! That's all I did was wait until the Barb had aggro! Please, stop thinking with a small mind...really! That means nothing! If you have strong spells, like I do on my Cleric, you WILL DRAW AGGRO!

    Get a clue.

    Grab the Mobster off the Cleric....how? Lmao! That is why you need the skill to do so and at the right moment. You all are trying to make up every excuse under the Sun to avoid saying, there needs to be a change. That's is why changes don't usually get made. Remember that.
  • FatherTed - Dreamweaver
    FatherTed - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,723 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    . . .

    If a barb is holding proper aggro, no matter how strong your heals are they will not draw aggro. This means HOLDING aggro - not mobs that aggroed onto the barb. A mob attacking a barb does not mean the barb has aggro. Until the barb either uses an aoe aggro skill, a genie aggro skill, or attacks each mob individually, he does not have aggo.

    Even if you heal aggro, barb turns, uses flesh ream, and boom - they have aggro back again.

    Now if you are drawing aggro through offensive spells it will me a bit harder to get aggro back - but that's no-one's fault but your own.

    I still think you need to try playing with some better barbs, tbh.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Thanks for the sig Ophida :3
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    FatherTed - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    . . .

    If a barb is holding proper aggro, no matter how strong your heals are they will not draw aggro. This means HOLDING aggro - not mobs that aggroed onto the barb. A mob attacking a barb does not mean the barb has aggro. Until the barb either uses an aoe aggro skill, a genie aggro skill, or attacks each mob individually, he does not have aggo.

    Even if you heal aggro, barb turns, uses flesh ream, and boom - they have aggro back again.

    Now if you are drawing aggro through offensive spells it will me a bit harder to get aggro back - but that's no-one's fault but your own.

    I still think you need to try playing with some better barbs, tbh.



    Give up already....you're saying the same thing. The FACT is, strong attacks or spells will draw aggro. This is common in all MMOs and PWI is no different. The Barb can do what ever the Barb wants to do, if someone has a stronger Spell or Damage, they will get attacked. You really need to play a game like "WOW." Some of the Best Tanks in that game can not hold aggro and they have to skill for it. It's the same issue in PW and it's in the same form.

    Get a clue dude. The Barb I played with was a Good Barb by the way.
  • Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear
    Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,161 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Sorry, but it sounds like either you or the barb (or whoever you're stealing mobs from) is at fault here, not the game itself. For one thing, if you heal somebody that's being attacked before THEY attack back, the mob will go to whoever healed them. There also already ARE the skills that you're suggesting; some of them are class skills and others are genie skills. Plenty of clerics can get by without the problem that you seem to be having. You WON'T draw aggro from somebody regardless of how strong your heal is unless they're a significantly lower level than you, or they aren't doing any damage at all. Also, aggro is relatively easy to get back from a cleric if they are to steal it. Sounds like you've just been in some pretty fail squads.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Evict is a sexy chalupa. <3
    retired, etc
  • Aadi - Lost City
    Aadi - Lost City Posts: 4,449 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Lol. Learn to play cleric and don't heal the tank until he has all the mobs...or be prepared to fight. We have Plume Shell, we have heals, we have buffs, we have Wings of Protection, we have Guardian Light, we can hold our own for a few seconds for the one attack it takes to get heal aggro off of us.

    That's why we have so many survival skills. You do realize they're just as usable on yourself as they are on others, right?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "aadi is a forum ninja, always there, skirting thru the shadows... striking with quick posts while you are distracted by your own" -Alexeno(kin)
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  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sorry, but it sounds like either you or the barb (or whoever you're stealing mobs from) is at fault here, not the game itself. For one thing, if you heal somebody that's being attacked before THEY attack back, the mob will go to whoever healed them. There also already ARE the skills that you're suggesting; some of them are class skills and others are genie skills. Plenty of clerics can get by without the problem that you seem to be having. You WON'T draw aggro from somebody regardless of how strong your heal is unless they're a significantly lower level than you, or they aren't doing any damage at all. Also, aggro is relatively easy to get back from a cleric if they are to steal it. Sounds like you've just been in some pretty fail squads.

    Then like I said, the skills that are present need to be refined. I mentioned that in my starting post.

    Secondly, rather someone is attacking or not attacking...a powerful spell is like a powerful attack. Spell aggro is no different from physical aggro.

    Either way you look at it...there needs to be some change to balance out this issue. That's the point of my post...and you just proved me right.
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Aadi - Lost City wrote: »
    Lol. Learn to play cleric and don't heal the tank until he has all the mobs...or be prepared to fight. We have Plume Shell, we have heals, we have buffs, we have Wings of Protection, we have Guardian Light, we can hold our own for a few seconds for the one attack it takes to get heal aggro off of us.

    That's why we have so many survival skills. You do realize they're just as usable on yourself as they are on others, right?

    I'm not even going to comment on this. At least read the forum before you comment or insult and you'll see why your comment looks silly.
  • Kimbley - Harshlands
    Kimbley - Harshlands Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Eh..... I'll gladly say that this is a troll =\

    Nothing is wrong with the agro mechanics in the game... at least nothing so major as what you describe...
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kimbley - Harshlands wrote: »
    Eh..... I'll gladly say that this is a troll =\

    Nothing is wrong with the agro mechanics in the game... at least nothing so major as what you describe...

    Then you're lacking in the experience my friend...because it's as plain as day. There's no way you play a Cleric, because any Cleric would no.

    If you're just going to insult and not think...don't bother posting. Because it's clear to me none of you are reading the entire forum. Some of you are saying the same ****.

    And to say there's no aggro problem in the game around Clerics....that's completely lame.
  • Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear
    Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,161 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    palpdaddy wrote: »
    Then like I said, the skills that are present need to be refined. I mentioned that in my starting post.

    Secondly, rather someone is attacking or not attacking...a powerful spell is like a powerful attack. Spell aggro is no different from physical aggro.

    Either way you look at it...there needs to be some change to balance out this issue. That's the point of my post...and you just proved me right.

    Alright, a cleric heal is powerful. A veno heal is not. If I heal my pet that is being attacked before it attacks back, that mob will attack me instead. It's NOT because my heal is stronger than my pet, or because your heal is stronger than the barb's ability to hold aggro, it's because whatever the mob is attacking hasn't really generated any hate. By you healing something that a mob is attacking, you ARE generating hate. If the person that mob is attacking isn't generating any, then obviously you are going to draw aggro. That's why you need to be aware of your surroundings. If somebody is being attacked by something and they haven't had a chance to attack back, DON'T HEAL THEM unless you're ready to take a few hits. Barbs are designed to hold aggro. I find it very hard to believe that you've ever stolen aggro by healing a barb that has been actively attacking something. Regardless of how strong your heals are, a barb's attacks are stronger.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Evict is a sexy chalupa. <3
    retired, etc
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Alright, a cleric heal is powerful. A veno heal is not. If I heal my pet that is being attacked before it attacks back, that mob will attack me instead. It's NOT because my heal is stronger than my pet, or because your heal is stronger than the barb's ability to hold aggro, it's because whatever the mob is attacking hasn't really generated any hate. By you healing something that a mob is attacking, you ARE generating hate. If the person that mob is attacking isn't generating any, then obviously you are going to draw aggro. That's why you need to be aware of your surroundings. If somebody is being attacked by something and they haven't had a chance to attack back, DON'T HEAL THEM unless you're ready to take a few hits. Barbs are designed to hold aggro. I find it very hard to believe that you've ever stolen aggro by healing a barb that has been actively attacking something. Regardless of how strong your heals are, a barb's attacks are stronger.

    OMG...you're a VENO, not a Cleric. You don't have the job of Keeping a party alive. Do you have a GROUP HEAL? Which is major Aggro....? Why? Because it heals everyone!! God. Not to mention...wait until some one is not attacking. LMAO! Good luck on that one....but it won't work anyway. I'm a full time Cleric with high level healing. I've seen it all and I'm telling you from fact, my spells are more powerful than most on anyother spell or attack. Why kill someone for being good at Cleric? Because that is the reality of it.
  • Kimbley - Harshlands
    Kimbley - Harshlands Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I have a cleric... i have no issues with stealing agro... now on this char, my wiz, i have a ton of problems stealing agro.... now please, go play a wiz and then complain about agro management...
  • Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear
    Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,161 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    palpdaddy wrote: »
    OMG...you're a VENO, not a Cleric. You don't have the job of Keeping a party alive. Do you have a GROUP HEAL? Which is major Aggro....? Why? Because it heals everyone!! God. Not to mention...wait until some one is not attacking. LMAO! Good luck on that one....but it won't work anyway. I'm a full time Cleric with high level healing.

    Lol, just because a cleric isn't my main doesn't mean I don't know how to play one, calm down. I was just showing you that the healing mechanics are the same for both. And guess what, a group heal isn't major aggro just because it's strong. Way to ignore the rest of my post. You're group healing when somebody is being attacked by a mob and hasn't had a chance to attack back. Sorry, but it's common knowledge for most clerics. Maybe YOU should have read around on the forums a bit before posting this thread.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Evict is a sexy chalupa. <3
    retired, etc
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kimbley - Harshlands wrote: »
    I have a cleric... i have no issues with stealing agro... now on this char, my wiz, i have a ton of problems stealing agro.... now please, go play a wiz and then complain about agro management...

    You have no real experience with the Cleric and your words are meaningless. Because if you did you would know where I'm coming from.
  • Kimbley - Harshlands
    Kimbley - Harshlands Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    palpdaddy wrote: »
    You have no real experience with the Cleric and your words are meaningless. Because if you did you would know where I'm coming from.

    You have no real experience with agro problems and your words are meaningless. Because if you did you would know there is no problem....


    you see what i did there?
  • RainbowVidel - Sanctuary
    RainbowVidel - Sanctuary Posts: 1,316 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Healing skills of any kind should not be causing aggro at all and it's stupid that the devs made it that way to begin with.
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lol, just because a cleric isn't my main doesn't mean I don't know how to play one, calm down. I was just showing you that the healing mechanics are the same for both. And guess what, a group heal isn't major aggro just because it's strong. Way to ignore the rest of my post. You're group healing when somebody is being attacked by a mob and hasn't had a chance to attack back. Sorry, but it's common knowledge for most clerics. Maybe YOU should have read around on the forums a bit before posting this thread.

    It's like having a water boy try to tell a QB how to throw a real pass that's why. Wow...people....not much insight I see.
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Rainbowvidel - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Healing skills of any kind should not be causing aggro at all and it's stupid that the devs made it that way to begin with.

    Very well put. But even if they do cause aggro, don't let that spell aggro go without some form of control. That's all I've been trying to say. A poor job of control was carved into PWI.
  • Kimbley - Harshlands
    Kimbley - Harshlands Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    palpdaddy wrote: »
    It's like having a water boy try to tell a QB how to throw a real pass that's why. Wow...people....not much insight I see.

    If you are having problems with healing agro.... and next to no-one else is.... then wouldn't be wise to infer that it is not a problem with the game but instead a problem with you?
  • Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear
    Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,161 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    palpdaddy wrote: »
    It's like having a water boy try to tell a QB how to throw a real pass that's why. Wow...people....not much insight I see.

    Because it isn't at all possible that I have a cleric as an alt, right?
    I really hope you're trolling. But if you aren't, let me say it again in simple terms:
    If you heal somebody that is being attacked and they aren't attacking back, you will steal aggro. It's not because your heal is strong, it's because you're generating more hate than the person just standing there. It's not the game's fault, it's yours. Read around on the cleric forum and you'll probably see the same thing said a hundred times. If you won't listen to that, well... enjoy being a fail cleric.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Evict is a sexy chalupa. <3
    retired, etc
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kimbley - Harshlands wrote: »
    If you are having problems with healing agro.... and next to no-one else is.... then wouldn't be wise to infer that it is not a problem with the game but instead a problem with you?

    And where did you get those facts from? Don't be lame all your life dude. If you think about it instead of putting your focus on me...you would get a clue.
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Because it isn't at all possible that I have a cleric as an alt, right?
    I really hope you're trolling. But if you aren't, let me say it again in simple terms:
    If you heal somebody that is being attacked and they aren't attacking back, you will steal aggro. It's not because your heal is strong, it's because you're generating more hate than the person just standing there. It's not the game's fault, it's yours. Read around on the cleric forum and you'll probably see the same thing said a hundred times. If you won't listen to that, well... enjoy being a fail cleric.

    OMG!! Do you not know that PWI follows the same game mechanics as other MMOs? Yes Damage and Spell Power will cause Aggro. This is a very old element of MMOs.

    Wow...where have you been?
  • Kimbley - Harshlands
    Kimbley - Harshlands Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    palpdaddy wrote: »
    And where did you get those facts from? Don't be lame all your life dude. If you think about it instead of putting your focus on me...you would get a clue.

    ... focus on you? You're giving yourself a little too much credit... i'm focusing on the subject at hand; you claimed that there is an issue with agro management as a cleric. I have played a cleric and played with clerics, so long as all party members know what they are doing the clerics will not steal agro...

    (how can i "get a clue" about something as nonexistent as this "issue")
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kimbley - Harshlands wrote: »
    ... focus on you? You're giving yourself a little too much credit... i'm focusing on the subject at hand; you claimed that there is an issue with agro management as a cleric. I have played a cleric and played with clerics, so long as all party members know what they are doing...

    (how can i "get a clue" about something as nonexistent as this "issue")

    I'm giving my self credit? On what? You can stop right there. You're a complete fool on this post.

    Next, please.
  • Raviste - Heavens Tear
    Raviste - Heavens Tear Posts: 288 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Fail troll is fail. o-o
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Retired - Radiance
  • Kimbley - Harshlands
    Kimbley - Harshlands Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    oh woe as me... we seem to most definitely have a troll....
  • palpdaddy
    palpdaddy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    palpdaddy wrote: »
    I'm giving my self credit? On what? You can stop right there. You're a complete fool on this post.

    Next, please.

    From what I can tell.... You all talking about my play skills as a Cleric... guess what? Any good Cleric with powerful spells would know what I'm stressing, so that tells me something. Either some of you never played a Cleric, or you have a very weak one spell wise. That's fact.

    This "Troll" **** only tells me your age. I need not say more.

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